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Lascoe - for the People - Cross | 43
we get into the details. Prior to coming here
today, did you meet with Mr. Katzer and discuss
your testimony ?
é Yes, I did.
Q All right, And on how many occasions did you do
that?
a Two or three times.
Q And can you aggregate the amount of time you spent
with him totally?
A Couple of hours maybe.
Q And when you met with him, did you read over your
previous testimony that you gave in an evidentiary
hearing we had here on December 30, 19817
A No, We did not read over it.
Q Did you read over your report that you made on
this evening?
a I have read it over; not at the time of the meetings,
but I have read it over.
Q And in your discussions with Mr. Katser, did you
discuse that report at all?
a We touched on it.
Q O.K. And when you met with Mr. Katzer, did you
meet alone or did you meet with anyone else?
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I met alone with Mr. Katzer.
Now, when was the last time that you met with Mr,
Katzer?
Just prior to this trial.
Does that mean today or yesterday?
Today.
Yesterday?
Today.
Today. Was that io his office?
In one of the conference rooms.
O.K. And I take it at that time he indicated to
you what he was going to ask you or the areas?
The areas,
All right. Now, I want to call your attention to
the time when the car, the Monarch Mercury was
stopped. Do you remember approximately what tine
that wae?
That was at epproximately 7:30.
And that was eat the time when I think you said
Officer DePaulo blocked the car.
That's correct.
So it could not leave the parking lot.
That's correct.
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Lascoe - for the People - Cross
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And when Officer DePaulo blocked the car, did he
do it by having his cer directly up in front,
nose to nose or bumper to bumper?
It was nose to nose but at a slight angle.
At a slight angle. And when Officer DePaulo blocked
the Monarch, the Mercury from leaving the parking
lot, was anybody in Officer DePaulo’s car, that you
could see?
Not when I arrived, no.
Ali right. And at that same time I take it that
Officer Igoe's car was also in the parking lot?
Yes. He was next to mine,
Now, you indicated, I believe, that after the car
was stopped Officer DePaulo exited his vehicle; is
that correct?
That's correct. |
Aod went over to the Mercury Monarch. |
Yes,
With his gun drawn,
When I arrived at the scene, hia gun was drawn,
yes.
O.K. And when you arrived at the scene, where
was Officer DePaulo standing?
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A He was standing towards the front of the Mercury
with his weapon aimed toward the windshield.
Q And where was Officer Igoe, if you recall?
A When we both arrived, Officer Igoe was on the
driver's side, as I stated before, perpendicular
to the driver's door.
And where were you?
| & I wae on the passenger's side somewhat between the |
rear door and the front door.
Q So would you say thet in essence, Officer DePaulo
| was in front, you were on the passenger's side and
Officer Igoe was on the driver's side?
A In essence, yes.
Q And all three had guns drawn?
| A Yes. |
Q Now, I think you indicated that when you got up
| to that position on the driver's side, you were
on the driver's side.
a: Aa Passenger's side.
Q You were on the passenger's side; that you saw that
Mx. Spearman, his left hand was on the eteering
wheel; is that correct?
& I could just barely see it. It appeared to be on
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Lascoe - for the People - Cross |. 463
the steering wheel.
Q All right. And that the right hand couldn't be
seen by you; is that correct?
| A I could not see his right hand on the steering
| wheel. I could see his right shoulder, I could
not see his right hand.
Q And I think at that time, I think you indicated
something about his right shoulder dipping two
times,
Theat fe affirmative.
Is that your testimony?
Yes.
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All right, And when you saw that, you were on the
passenger's side; is that correct?
a That's correct.
q And there was nobody sitting on the passenger's
side in the vehicle.
ry No, there wasn't,
8 And I take it you looked in the vehicle when you
saw this right shoulder dip; is that correct?
A Yes, I did, I wes looking in the vehicle at all
times.
Q O.K. And when you saw his right shoulder dip, did
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Lascoe ~ for the People - Cross
ix
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you see his right hand?
Wo, I could not.
O.K. Now then, you Sndicated that both DePaulo
and Igoe asked Mr. Spearman to leave the vehicle.
Yes.
And how many times did you hear them say that?
I can't be certain; two or three times.
Did each man say it two or three times?
I know Officer Igoe said it at least twice and
Officer DePaulo, by the time we arrived, hed said |
it already once when we arrived,
I take it your testimony then is thet Mr. Spearman
did not respond to that, to those orders to leave
the vehicle.
That is correct.
Did there come a time when he left the vehicle?
I do not recell whether he voluatarily left the
vehicle on his own or whether he was removed.
Now, you indicated, I believe, that you saw his
right shoulder dip; is that correct?
That's correct.
Bow, you filled out a report of this whole incident,
did you not?
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Lascoe ~- for the People - Cross
A
Yes, I did.
MR. KUNSTLER: And may I have this
marked for identification, please?
(A report was marked Defendant
Spearman's Exhibit A for identification.)
BY MR, KUNSTLER;
Q
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All right. And I am going to show you Defendant's
A and I realize it's @ photostatic copy, and ask
you if that is the report that you filled out?
Yes, it is,
And how long after the incident did you fi11 out
that report?
From the beginning of the incident or from after?
Well, from the time the vehicle was stopped.
I can't say for certain; possibly an hour.
And did you do that in your own handwriting?
Yes, I did,
And it's signed by you, isn't it?
Yea, it is,
And Officer Lascoe, didn’t you tell your superiors
you saw Mr. Spearman put his hand under the front
seat or under the seat of the vehicle?
WR, KATZER: Objection to the fora,
tener os = ete
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35
Lascoe ~ for the People - Cross
49
BY MR. KUNSTLER:
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THE COURT: Mo. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Excuse me. If you give
me @ moment to find that section of the report --
Yes. It's on page 3.
Page 3.
Toward the top.
Page 3?
MR. KATZER; Judge, if he wants to
introduce it, that's the proper form. |
MR. KUNSTLER: Judge, that is an
improper, unethical statement to make.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, please.
MR. KUNSTLER: It's a self-serving
statement aad he knows that.
THE COURT: Well, don’t compound it
by making some more.
MR. KUNSTLER: All right.
THE WITNESS: O.K. What I stated was
not that I observed it underneath the seat or that
it wes observed, it come out from underneath the
eeat, but that it had been removed from underneath
the seat, But this was based on not my personal
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3u _Lascoe - for the People ~- Cross 30
observation but on the statements of other people.
MR. KUNSTLER: Can you answer my
question? May I have that stricken, Judge?
| THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. KUNSTLER:
Q Did you not report to your superiors an hour later
that the subject began to reach under the front
seat? |
A I reported that he appeared to reach under the |
front seat. I was in no position to see whether -- |
from my position on tie passenger's side I was io
no position to see whether he waa reaching under
the front seat.
Q Officer Lascoe, you dida’t say, "appeared to reach
under the front seat," did you?
“ MR. KATZER: That is my objection,
The report -- the proper form for this type of
impeachment is the report.
THE COURT: Overruled. Cross-
exanioacion,
THE WITNESS: The only thing is that
in the report, all right, Kosakowski assisted ia the
search of the vehicle and found a Smith and Wesson
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40) _Lascoe - for the People - Cross se
38 caliber, a five-shot handgun --
THE COURT: Mo, no, Please, Please.
Please confine yourself to the --
BY MR, KUNSTLER:
Q Yes. Did you not tell your superiors in words or
substance that the subject Mr, Spearman reached,
| began to reach under the front seat? bid you say
that or dida't you?
A I don't recall saying that to the -- to my superiors|
{
Ite is in the report.
| Q Did you put it in the report?
A It is in the report, Subject began to reach under
the front seat.
Q O.K. That's an answer, Now, you didn't see him |
reach under any front seat, did you?
A No,
Q O.K. Now, in your report you did not indicate as
you've testified here that there were several comma nds
given to Mr, Spearman to leave the vehicle which he
disobeyed or ignored, did you?
he No. I did not include that in the report.
Q O.K. In fact, didn't you say in your report that
he was warned not to move?
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Lascoe ~- for the People - Cross
A
Q
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Initially he was warned not to move, yes,
O.K. And then didn't you report to your superiors
in your report that he was then removed by officers
from the vehicle, Albany Police Department officers?
Yes. He was removed from the vehicle, yes.
First he was warned not to move and then they
removed him, the Albany Police Department Officers
Igoe and DePaulo, Isn't that what you reported an
hour later?
I reported that he wes warned not to move and then
he was later removed from the vehicle.
O.K. Now, before testifying here did you read your
report over?
No, I did not.
Were you relying on your memory?
I have read it over in the past. I did not read it
directly prior to the trial, no.
When is the last time before coming in here that you
read your report?
Could have been a week, two weeks ago. I'm not
certain,
All right. Now, when he was removed from the
vehicle, as I recall your testimony, he was then
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32
Lascoe - for the People - Cross
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placed in Officer Igoe's car; is that correct?
Mo, in Officer DePaulo's car.
Officer DePaulo's car; that's a marked Albany Police
Department vehicle.
Yea, unit 15.
And was he handcuffed?
Yes, he was.
And who handcuffed him?
I believe it was --
If you remember,
I believe it was Officer DePaulo who handcuffed
hia. |
And were the handcuffs behind his back or in front? |
I believe they were behind his back.
And was he placed in the rear seat of the Albany
Bolice Department vehicle?
That's correct, rear seat, passenger's side.
All right. Now, you then indicated, as I recall,
that there was approximately five minutes of elapsed
time from that moment until a lieutenant arrived;
is that correct?
It was within five minutes that the lieutenant
arrived,
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Lascoe - for the People ~ Cross
Q
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All right. And there was no search of Mr.
Spearman’s vehicle, was there, during that five-
minute period?
No, not until the lieutenant arrived, no,
Are you sure that was five minutes?
It was within five minutes.
And do you remember testifying in this very court-
room @ month and a half ago?
Yes, I do.
Do you remember being asked the question, and on
page 25 of the testimony, Mr. Katzer,
"Q And after that, did you see any
of the police officers searching
the vehicle?
A A bit afterwards, yes.
Q How long after?
aA One of the lieutenants showed
up on the scene; oh, anywhere
from ten or five to ten, fifteen
minutes. I really couldn't say,
Q Tt could be anywhere from five to
fifteen minutes.
A That's correct."
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Lascoe - for the People - Cross
Do you remember giving those @anewers under oath in
this very courtroom?
Yes, I do.
And when you made those answers, were they correct?
I was stating that I was not --
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Were they correct?
MR. KATZEK: Objection. He is
answering the question,
THE COURT: Sustained,
THE WITNESS: I was explaining that --
THE COURT: Sustained, Please.
BY MK, KUNSTLER:
Q Were those answers correct!
MR. KATZER: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustainec.
BY MK. KUNSTLEK;
Q When you gave them? All right. Those answers
that you just gave were under oath, weren't they?
4a Yes, they were,
MR. KATZER: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. KUNSTLER;
Q How, today you said it was no more than five ainutes.
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Lascoe ~- for the People ~- Cross
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Is that your testimony?
It was within five minutes that the lieutenant
arrived,
And with reference to the lieutenant arriving, do
you know what lieutenant that was?
Lieutenant Kosakowski.
And when did the search of the vehicle begin with
reference to the Lieutenant arriving?
Within a few minutes possibly after he arrivec. I
really don't recall exactly when it began.
Do you know how many minutes after he arrived?
No, I do not,
Now, up to that time that the Lieutenant arrived,
had you seen any of the other officers, Officer
Igoe, Officer DePaulo, search the vehicle?
No, they did not,
Or enter the vehicle ia any way?
No,
So I take it the vehicle was not disturbed.
No, &t was not,
From the time you saw Mr. Spearman removed from it
to the time that the Lieutenant arrived.
That's correct.
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Q Mow, after the Lieutenant arrived, can you estimate
| how many minutes elapsed before the search begaa?
A As I stated just prior, within a couple minutes.
I can't say for certain how long.
Q Well, when you say a couple of minutes, what do you
| mean by that?
| & Anywhere from the time he arrived to maybe five
| minutes later.
| Q And prior to the searching of the vehicle or the
time it started, was there any conversetion between |
Officer Igoe and DePaulo and the Lieutenant?
A And the Lieutenant?
Q Yes, Did they talk?
I really don't recall. I wasn't in their company, |
the direct company of them at the time,
Q Where were you when the Lieutenant arrived? |
4 When the Lieutenant arrived, I was at the rear of
| the Mercury and I was conversing with some of my
| fellow officers,
With whom?
A With some of my fellow officers from my department.
Q All right. And so when the Lieutenant arrived, did
he -- withdrawn, Did you see the Lieutenant arrive?
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I don’t recall whether I saw him arrive. I kaow
I saw him there.
All right. Well, there came a time that you saw
the Lieutenant for the first time.
That's correct.
Do you know the Lieutenant?
I didn’t know him until that point, no.
O.K. And when you first saw the Lieutenant that
evening, was he in the company of Officers Igoe
aod DePaulo?
When I saw him at that scene?
Yes,
After he was called, I believe he was.
All right. And did you see their lips moving or
anything that would indicate conversation was taking
place?
I really didn't notice.
They could have been talking or they could aot have
been as far as you were concerned.
Yeah,
Mow, then, you saw the Lieutenant search the car,
didn’t you?
Bo. I did not see him search the car,
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Dida't you see him search the car?
Yo.
You didn't see the Lieutenant find a gun.
Wo. I did not see him find it,
Did you put in your report that you saw the
Lieutenant --
MK. KATZER: Objection. Can we get
the report at least marked so we know what purpose
it le being used for?
MR. KUNSTLER: Judge, it is marked.
MR. KATZER: Ie it being used to
refresh his recollection or to impeach?
MR. KUNSTLER: It is being used to
impeach, Judge.
WA. KATZER: Then the report speaks
for iteelf, Judge.
MR. KUNSTLER: Judge --
THE COURT: Continue. Stop it.
MR. KUNSTLER: All right.
Officer, when you filled out your report, isn’t it
@ fact that you etated that the Lieutenant eseisted
in the search and found a weapon? Isn't thet what
you said?
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Lascoe - for the People - Cross
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This was my understanding.
This was your understanding. You were right there,
weren't you?
I was there but I was not observing the search,
You weren't observing the search,
No, I wae aot.
So you told your superior that you saw something
you didn't see. Is that what you are telling us?
MR. KATZER: Objection.
THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.
BY MR. KUNSTLER:
Q
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All right. Dido't you tell your superiors in your
report that you saw the Lieutenant find @ gua under
the front seat?
I would really have to review the report. I don't
recall,
Read the report.
Yes. I state that Lieutenant found it, found the
weapon.
Where?
Under the seat,
Under the front seat; isn't that correct?
That's correct.
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61
Q
All right. Are you telling us now you didn't see
thet?
No, I did not see it. It was not personal observa-
tion.
Not personal observation, If it wasn't personal
observation, where did you get the information
from?
When the Lieutenant was searching the vehicle, whea
he came out of the vehicle, I was facing the opposite
direction. He said look and I turned as he said
that and he had a weapon in his hand and he stated,
"Look what -- look what we found,” or something to
that extent.
Did he say anything about the front seat?
No, but he had -- he was near the front door of the
vehicle, coming out of the front door of the vehicle,
And did you then make an assumption in your report
that it was found under the front seat?
Based on what I asked some other officers, yes.
Other officers told you it was found under the
front seat?
They assumed that it was found under the front
seat.
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They assumed, Did they say to you we assume it
was found under the front seat?
MR. KATZER: Objection,
THE COURT: Sustained,
BY MR. KUNSTLER:
All right. Now, you filled out these reports many
times in the past, haven't you?
Yes.
And how many times would you say prior to September
21, Nineteen Hundred and Eighty-one?
I really couldn't put a number on then.
Hundreds?
Maybe a hundred, may hundreds, I have no idea.
And you try to be accurate in these reports, do
you not?
Try to be, yes.
They are supposed to be a recordation of things
you observe and see and do while you are police
officers; isn't that correct?
Yes.
And how many years were you a Campus police officer
prior?
Excuse me?
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63
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How many years were you 4 Campus police officer
prior to September 21, Nineteen Hundred and Eighty-
one?
Approximately nine years.
And did you work? You had other police experience
before that, didn't you?
No, I did not.
O.K. So during that period of time, you understand
the purpose of a report like this is to record
accurately your activities.
To the best of my recollection, yes.
To the best of your recollection. Now, wher you
first saw the weapon, it was in the Lieutenant's
hand, was it not?
That's correct.
O.K. And when you first saw the weapon, where was
the Lieutenant with reference to the car? I'm
talking about the Monarch now.
He was standing outside the vehicle perpendicular,
approximately perpeodicular to the driver's door.
And he had the gun in his hand and he said something
is that correct?
That's correct.
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Do you recall the exact words?
Not the exact words, no,
Well, can you recall what you recall it sounding
like to you?
Something to the effect of look what we found.
Look what we found.
Something to that effect.
All right. Now, did you touch the gur itself?
No, I did not.
Did you check whether it had bullete or not?
No. No, I did not.
Now, in your report you referred to bullets, caliber,
do you not?
Yes, I do,
I take it that you received information from somebody
that it was a .33 caliber five-shot handgun; is that
correct?
MR. KATZER: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
And who told you that?
i believe it was either Officer Igoe or Officer
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belaulo who emptiec the weapon.
When did they Celi you thats ov acne afte. the
Lieutenant hac founc tiie gun:
In five minutes, maybe. i'm reali» mat gure.
Anc dic Chey alao Ceil you anything asouc the type
of buicets they were:
Yes, the, cic,
What did they teil youl
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fifty-eight grad: ieliow-point,
And you didn't inspect the gun, the vu.rets o. the
gun yourseli,
do, 1 diene.
You toon their word for ii.
Yes, I cia.
Now, whea the cleutenanc bac the gun ir nace, aid
you see where Officer Lerauio wes at thei tin., if
you recall?
Il believe he was -- 1 dow't know if he was stili
in the vehicle or not. I thiax be was on the
passenger's side either Laside or outsive of the
vehicle,
All right. And where was Officer Igoe:
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Lascoe - for the People - Cross
| 66
I don't recall,
Now, is it not a fact thet you told your superiors
in your report that the gun had been found under
the front seat within reach of the subject, subject
meaning Mr, Spearman; is that correct?
I don't believe I said within reach but that he
began to, subject began to reach,
Well, didn’t you look in the middle of page 3?
To refresh your recollection, as to what you --
O.K. O.K. Yes,
Do you see that? Isn't it a fact that you told
your superiors that the gun had been found under
the front seat within reach of the subject?
Yes. I did state that in the report.
Now, I take it you dida‘’t see that,
Ho, I did aot.
So you got that from the Lieutenant perhaps.
No. I got that from some of my fellow officers
who had -- I don't know where they received the
information from, They stated that it was found -~-
they believed it te have been found underneath the
front seat.
And were those fellow officers present at the scene?
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Lascoe - for the People - Cross 67
A They were present at the scene but not involved in
the search.
Q Not involved in the search but in the vicinity of
the search,
In the vicinity.
And do you know where they were?
They were with me at the rear of the vehicle.
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And do you know what are the names of those
officers? ; |
A I really don't recall which officers it was, There,
was, I belfleve, only one that told me and I don't
recall which one {t was.
Q Well, do you recall their names at all?
A Well, there was Officer Kearn that was on duty,
Officer Lasard was on duty anc Lieutenant Polli
was on duty. There may have been a few other
officers there. I don't belfeve that there were.
I think that was the extent of it,
Q All right. Then I take it your testimony is there
were two or three or maybe more Campus police
officers there in the vicinity of the vehicle
while it was being searched.
A Yes.
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Lascoe ~ for the People - Cross 68
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Q It was from them you got the information that the
| gun had been found under the front seat.
A That's correct.
| Q Of the vehicle, Now, did Mr. Spearman identify
| himself?
|
4 Ro, he did not.
| Q All right. And who told you that his name was
John Spearman?
A It was after the fact, after the scene was cleared;
to complete my report we contacted Albany Police
Department to see if they hac determined who the
gentleman was,
Q Then you learned it was John Spearman,
A That is correct.
Q And how long after the incident did you discover
hie name was John Spearman?
A I really can't recall how long afterward.
Q Well, can you estimate?
A I believe we contacted the Albany Police Department
| at least twice. The first time they didn't have a
| name for us and second time they did; I believe maybe
within an hour, two hours.
Q Give us @ time period. Did you get the name efter
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Lascoe ~- for the People - Cross 469
you had completed your report?
A I believe it was towards the end of completing my
report or maybe after. I'm not exactly sure.
Q You can take a look at your report,
| A O.K. According to ay report, he did have a canvai.
l license on him, the name John Spearman. He did not
i identify himself verbally. I did get the name at
the ecene. I do recall now.
Q You got the name at the scene.
A Off the license but not from verbal from Mr. |
Spearman,
q And isn't it a fact you got that name before the
Lieutenant arrived?
That I really don’t recall.
Could have been, couldno'c it?
Could have been. I don't recall.
ce > ££ >
Now, did you yourself do any searching of the
vehicle?
A No, I did aot,
Q And did you see anything in the vehicle other thao
what you've described so far?
A I believe there was a, possibly ea leather portfolio
and a manila portfolio on ome of the seats,
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_ 4 lscoe »- for the People - Cross fine Dee
Did you look in that portfolio?
Did I look in that portfolio?
& & £
Yes.
A No, I did not.
Q And did anyone look in the portfolio, to your
kaow ledge?
A To my knowledge, yes.
Q Who did that?
A I really don’t recall who it was that looked into
it. |
Q And you didn't learn at that time that there were
papers in the portfolio relating to the rugby
match?
A Yes, I did.
q Now, at that time the rugby team, if you know, was
e@taying at the Hyatt Thruway Motel; isn’t thet
correct?
That is correct,
60
Lascoe - for the People - Cross 71
but I did know when it was scheduled to be played,
yes.
| Q Now, just a word or two more and I think I'm done.
After the arrest of John Spearman and between then
and now, have you had any discussions at all about
| this case with either Officers Igoe or DePaulo?
| A Have we had discussions about it?
q Yes.
A We have met, We haven't had any group discussion
| or organized discussions on it, no,
Q Well, I'm not talking about organized discussions.
Did you discuss the case with them in some way after
the incident?
A Briefly. |
q And how long after the incident? |
A I really don't recall how long after. It wasn't
immediately. I don't see Officers Igoe or DePaulo
on a regular basis.
Q Estimate, I realize we are talking about four or
five months back. Can you estimate how long after-
wards?
4 Couple months, maybe a month,
& And at that time I take it you had a brief discussion
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