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WILLIAM LUCY
CSEA INTERVIEW
of
WILLIAM LUCY, AFSCME Secretary-Treasurer
July 2003
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WILLIAM LUCY
THE INTERVIEWER: when did you first
become aware of CSEA?
MR. LUCY: I think anyone who did
work in the public sector knew CSEA or knew about
CSEA all the time, specifically in the
mid-sixties, late sixties, when the campaign for
recognition in the State of New York took place
under the new Taylor Law.
THE INTERVIEWER: I'm gonna ask you
to talk a little bit about The Taylor Law. CSEA
and AFSCME had a very contentious relationship in
the late sixties and early seventies after the
establishment of The Taylor Law in New York in
representation size. what do you remember about
those times?
MR. LUCY: Well, I clearly remember
the fact that both organizations were very
competitive, both in terms of the areas of the
work force that they represented at the same time
as well as competing for new areas that were made
possible by The Taylor Law itself. we had a
direct competition in the Institutional Unit which
involved the Mental Health Institutions and those
at the State level in addition to some of the
Local governments, County and Local government
races.
THE INTERVIEWER: How did the
relationship soften over time to the point where
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WILLIAM LUCY
CSEA considered affiliating with AFSCME?
MR. LUCY: I think both CSEA and
ourselves recognized that ultimately we were not
each other's enemy but the employer was the enemy
of both, and while we had different missions our
representations were our State Councils and
certainly our City of New York locals under
District Council 37. We were trying to find the
best way to service the needs of public sector
employees.
I think what caused the situation to
really, you know, crystallize was the fact that a
large piece of CSEA, notably the what is called
now PEF, the Public Employees Federation, came
into being which, I think in the minds of the
leadership of CSEA, really raised the question of
fragmentation and how could they best keep their
entire unit together.
THE INTERVIEWER: what do you
remember about the affiliation? How did it happen
and what role did you play in helping to make sure
it happened?
MR. LUCY: well, as I said, the --
on the event of the Public Employee Federation
comin' into bein', I think great thought went
through the minds of the leadership of CSEA as to
how to avoid this fragmentation issue and we,
AFSCME, were then the largest public sector union
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WILLIAM LUCY
in the state and I think the natural drift was to
see what kind of relationship could be worked out
with ourselves and that same view was going
through our mind and it was on that basis that a
number of discussions began to take place at the
leadership level and also at the affiliate level.
THE INTERVIEWER: How important was
the affiliation for AFSCME?
MR. LUCY: Oh, critically important
to us. I think it not only established AFSCME or
reaffirmed AFSCME's leadership in the public
sector, but it brought into bein' a large unit of
public sector employees in the State, which meant
for us that we had to intensify our efforts in
understanding State government and certainly
developing stronger procedures and methods for
being the State employee interest.
THE INTERVIEWER: How has the
relationship between CSEA and AFSCME evolved over
the years?
MR. Lucy: I think it's been a
magnificent relationship. CSEA was an independent
association. I personally come out of an
independent association background, so we had --
those backgrounds give you a different perspective
on your role and your relationship with the
employer, whether it be a State government or
County government.
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WILLIAM LUCY
I think we convinced CSEA leadership
at it's top level and local levels that we
understood public sector representation and I
think what they drew from us and learned from us
was that we were not sort of the wild-eyed radical
union that we had been presented to be on a local
situation, but that we were trying to increase our
ability to meet the needs of State employees and
Local government employees and that they were a
key factor in that.
we had to work together to improve
the whole and I think over time this proved to be
a very wise decision.
THE INTERVIEWER: How would you
describe CSEA's role in AFSCME today?
MR. LUCY: Oh, CSEA is a major
participant, a major player in shaping the policy
direction of the union as well as how we approach
major public policy questions, not just in terms
of the day-to-day representation but what's public
employment gonna be like two years, four years,
six years from now, and New York State and the
various public entities in New York State are a
unique piece of our union and a unique piece of
that problem. I mean we want to maintain quality
public services performed by trained and qualified
public employees and CSEA's vision of that, as the
largest group of public sector employees in our
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union, is critical to how we formulate our
programs for the rest of the country.
THE INTERVIEWER: what do you think
were the most important events and issues for CSEA
and AFSCME over the past 25 years?
MR. LUCY: I think it's probably
been the continuin' to build this relationship so
that each party sees the continuous -- as a work
in progress. we're continuing to learn about
their needs from a political perspective in New
York State and they are continuin' to learn that
they are a part of a -- of our, should we say, a
magnificent whole.
And what they give us is a sense of
stability as we look at major public issues and
hopefully what we give them to deal with our
situation is resources and support wherever it's
asked for.
THE INTERVIEWER: This is the
Cinaudible) question. we want you to comment on
some of the CSEA leaders you've worked with over
the past 25 years and I'll just (inaudible). Bill
McGowan?
MR. LUCY: I think Bill McGowan was
probably one of the strongest leaders who
recognized the need for CSEA to make this
transition from an independent but strong
association to an integral part of the American
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WILLIAM LUCY
labor movement and that to come in as a strong
organization meant that you not only played a
rightful role as a part, but you became even
stronger by increasing the size of the total
union.
THE INTERVIEWER: Irving
Flamingbaum.
MR. LUCY: Irving was one of the
most colorful individuals I've had the pleasure of
meeting. AS a matter of fact, I knew Irving
Flamingbaum before I met Bill McGowan. Irving was
a leader at the County level, one who really makes
his knowledge and understanding of Local
government, had an incredible sense of political
engagement and was really a sort of a people's
person, so you put all those three characteristics
together and it gave -- you come out with a leader
that was both cunning in the context of dealing
with the employer, he was politically
sophisticated because he was able to -- I say walk
all sides of the street on behalf of his
employees. Irving was a master politician.
THE INTERVIEWER: Joe McDermott.
MR. LUCY: I think Joe McDermott as
a successor to Bill McGowan really built on the
foundation that Bill laid, that foundation being a
strong and forthright engagement inside of AFSCME
itself, makin' sure that CSEA was well-represented
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in the decision-makin' process of AFSCME, but
bringin’ his basic trade union skills to work on
behalf of this affiliation. And both Bill and Joe
had major roles in terms of integrating the two
organizations together.
THE INTERVIEWER: Danny Donohue.
MR. LUCY: I think Donohue is one of
the brightest and ablest leaders in the American
labor movement today and while he represents CSEA,
which in the grand scheme of things is just one
piece, his leadership of CSEA and his
participation in our national union has allowed
him to make a mark for public employees and
workers in general at the highest levels of labor.
I have a great deal of admiration for Danny.
THE INTERVIEWER: Mary Sullivan?
MR. LUCY: Mary and Danny and George
Boncoraglio played two important roles. One,
representing CSEA on our board, but also
representing our total union in New York and
across the rest of the nation. They have been, I
think, key parts of transmittin' AFSCME's agenda
to the CSEA leadership and rank and file and vice
versa; makin' sure that the executive board of our
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union is totally in tune with the thinkin’ of CSEA
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membership.
THE INTERVIEWER: Irene Carr.
MR. LUCY: Irene, aside from bein' a
tremendous leader in CSEA, did somethin' for the
national union and I don't believe we could have
done without her and that is to take on the chore
of building the women's movement in AFSCME and in
buildin' in a way that kept it focused on what
it's ultimate goal was. She was a very quiet but
effective lady and one who had the total respect,
even though she come from the association side,
all the other members came from basically the old
AFSCME side, and she was able to bring her
leadership to that group in a very quiet and
effective way. We've probably got, as a result of
her contribution, the most effective women's
Committee of any union.
THE INTERVIEWER: Anybody else that
I haven't named?
MR. LUCY: No, because if I name one
or two we have to mention others.
(Laughter.)
THE INTERVIEWER: How has the CSEA
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changed AFSCME over time?
MR. LUCY: well, I'm not sure
"changed" is the word so much as maybe how has it
made us intensify our work. I mean we have
become, obviously, much more knowledgeable about
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the importance of State government in the overall
scheme of government: State, County and Local.
And I think that's as a result of, (a) the need to
recognize that in terms of State and Local
governments being able to function, State is
where, you know, the action starts and we have
intensified our efforts in that area. we've
restructured our service mechanism to meet some of
the needs that exist there, so I would say we've
gained from understandin' the need to focus on
State government at that level.
THE INTERVIEWER: How has AFSCME
maybe changed CSEA?
MR. LUCY: TI think we've convinced
the leadership and the rank-and-file members of
CSEA that we are all public employees with the
same set of problems and that as an institution of
1.4 million folks our ability to focus on the
policy issues, focus on the day-to-day problems of
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workers, is the key to our survival and that they
are as much a part of this institution as we are a
part of them and that together we have an
obligation to confront employers irrespective of
whether they're national Presidents or State
Governors on the day-to-day issues that affect our
work force.
THE INTERVIEWER: One of the last
questions. How did you see the relationship
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between CSEA and DC 37 evolve over time?
MR. Lucy: I think it started off as
a distant, a nonexistent relationship because as I
said earlier, the competition, you know, between
leadership, the competition for turf was alive and
well for all the world's ears leadin' into the
sixties. But under Danny's leadership, that gap
has been breached and you now have DC 37, 1707,
and CSEA meeting as a family in one state to talk
about policy questions that affect everybody and I
think that that could not have happened
effectively without the leadership of Danny
Donohue and the enlightened leadership of DC 37.
THE INTERVIEWER: What are your --
what are some of your most vivid personal memories
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of CSEA events and activities?
MR. LUCY: well, I think I would
have to go back to one that George Boncoraglio got
me engaged in and that's when I discovered that
the Brooklyn Bridge is not nearly as short as some
folks think it is. (Laughter.)
One of the most magnificent
demonstrations that was held in the region that
George is vice president of was in New York City
and those of us who jumped at the chance to walk
across the Brooklyn Bridge jumped at a chance.
The bridge is longer than they say. That's my
most vivid memory.
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(Laughter.)
THE INTERVIEWER: Anything else?
MR. LUCY: No. I would just say
that over time CSEA and its leadership and its
rank and file have really found a home in AFSCME
and we've found a home with them. And as a result
we're organizing more and more workers who were
both in their jurisdiction and who are in the
basic AFSCME jurisdiction and as a result more
workers are bein' made -- more workers are gettin'
the opportunity to have a strong union represent
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"em, to have effective leadership up and down the
chain and public employees in the State of New
York really have over the last 25 years, let's
say, seen a new beginning where their work and
their value is much more appreciated as a result
of the representation brought by CSEA and AFSCME
united.
(conclusion of interview of william
Lucy, AFSCME Secretary-Treasurer.)
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