Hi, my name is Joe Dolan. I started with CSA in 1965 as the Oveny Area Field Representative
and left CSA in 1982 as the executive director.
Okay, now let me ask you the first question. What's your first recollection of CSA?
The first recollection of CSA was the three bowling leagues that I had to join when I was
the area of Field Representative in 1965 so I could meet the people.
There hadn't been a lot of communication. It seemed to me between the area of Field Representative
and the local chapters at that time. The Oveny Area was the heart of the union at that time
with membership and so on. And 87, if I were 8% of the board members were from different state agencies
that were located here. So I thought I'd better get out and assimilate a little bit with them.
So I do any three bowling leagues and I remember days when I went to three or four
climbex the same day so I could get out and meet some of the folks. But that's a lot of what CSA
was about in 1965 bowling leagues and climbex.
Okay, now some of the big events that you were involved in I guess the first was Taylor Law?
Oh sure, sure yeah. CSA was the first major political force in the state to endorse the
Taylor Law and we were the only place association or labor organization to endorse it. At that
time I had the occasion to meet George Taylor. I took a course at Morton. He was from
Morton School of Finance and he was the guy that Rocky Rockefeller tapped to write the law.
So as a result of that association I set with him several times not to add to what he was doing
because he knew the law and knew what he had to do. It just gave me a great insight into what the
law meant and what different aspects of the law were meant to do, what meant to accomplish.
Prior to the passage of the Taylor Law, Nelson Rockefeller, the governor at the time
co-leathered an international symposium on public employer-related relations in New York City.
Harold Wilson was the prime minister of Great Britain at the time and he was the major speaker
at the bank with speaker. At the bank with we had representatives there from Japan and Germany
all the major countries now that we know as part of the C-Power-based France. They appeared
to me to be a little naive at the time because it was the Germans said they loved their employees
and they would take care of their employees. Two years later the streets of Munich were
piled high with garbage because the employees didn't show the law but Harold Wilson was a very
forceful speaker at the time. Remember the representative party which was okay but he pointed out
the things that needed to be provided for the law. He either had to provide for a legislative
settlement. He had to provide a mechanism to negotiate a settlement or you had to prohibit
strikes. One of the three and I think the Taylor Law was probably one of the most
pieces of legislation that was ever passed and incorporated all of those provisions.
And then of course the Public Public Relations Board was formed and then they admitted that
they promulgated rules that had to be outfiled and so then we proceeded. The Taylor Law was passed
that probably a hundred petitions filed. The governor had recognized the CSEA as the
representative for the entire State Workforce One Unit which as we all look back now we really
realized how absurd it was but it was a kicking off point but there had to be at least a hundred
petitions filed. Some by council 50 of AFSCME, so a bit of a grammar who was the president of New York
City and it was a local and Buffalo I forget who the leadership was there but there were petitions
filed all over the state which immediately created our relationship with PURB as the major player
and we continued to do to be the major player for several years and I remember we had
bargaining units in 67 the 68 counties outside New York City or I'm sorry 57 of the 58 counties
outside New York City. We didn't have one in Washington County because there was only 40 people
who were more cows there than people so we kind of put them in with Hamilton County and then
there were 64 cities I think we were in every city except New York City.
40% of the school districts in the state were 1000 at the time we represented the employees
you know so we were kind of the major major gag around and our first big challenge was that we had
to go out and get read dedications from all of our members our membership card at the time
just that they were folks who are applying for membership so we had to get a new card and said
applying for membership and and does the knitting CSEA is my bargaining agent and that was a huge
job for the staff and they found out across the state and you know we got the cards and the
showing of interest and but through the PURB hearings we ended up with for I think four-bargain
units PS&T operational administrative which was fine you know it Bob Helmsby was a chairman of
PURB at the time it had a hell of a golf ball as well as being chairman of PURB I chatted with them a lot
and you know they kind of knew what they were doing we were we were around and you know we know what
we wanted but I don't I don't think that anyone ever dreamed that we would end up in one barge
union for all set employees it was just there was too much divergent interest interest there so
we went through several years with the Taylor Law in the beginning I used to send a
courier up to PURB every day to pick up the position that we're file that day I we started
certification these certification files and recognition the resolution that came in from all
over the state our law firm recommended that that we write a letter to every local government
in the state I had to be 2000 or more in cities, towns, villages and authorities we did
demanding recognition at the health and why not it seems to me that's maybe the point where
we came where it changed from an association to a union yeah yeah we reached out to cornell
the ILR school a cornell contract college founded by Stanley Steingett's father one of the
four contract colleges there and they sent us a couple of folks Ron Dunham was a professor and
Dick Rubin was I think maybe an associate or assistant professor at the time and I ended up
calling them Ding Baton Robin because they they they had an understanding of labor law
as I had applied in the private sector and a lot of it you know has flown over more now than
then because it was the resistance of public employers part mainly and and we we weren't really
that familiar with it so you know we kind of resisted it too but they came in and they organized
seminars for us and and I'll never forget the first one out at Sianna College that we had all
of the statewide officers there and Joe Feeley was the president and Hazel Abrams was a secretary
and other folks from around and we probably had 30 or 35 people show up on the Saturday out at Sianna
and Dick Rubin was the I guess the bad guy and the good guy bad guy team and well you've got
to tell her I'll never forget it you've got to tell her now well no what are you gonna do you're
gonna go on strike and I looked over and Hazel Abrams tears started running down her face and I
said boy are we in trouble but he scared them into the realization that there was a new all new
ballgame and an all new attitude had to be developed and and so we just kind of you know
went along with the law my association chat chat with George Taylor had given me some insight
I think to a position where I could argue with Perv about things and I did
caught them twice in miss application of the law and pointed out to them
so you know it was it was a good good very good working relationship we knew all the staff they knew
us we went through elections for the for the operation of women through elections for the
for the administrative we went through elections for the on the unit for the health workers
in the hospitals we went to election for the PS and T unit we're successful obviously
history will tell you in the first three we weren't successful with the PS and T
because of their I guess their uniqueness professional they resisted being thrown in with
or kept in with with the other folks so they left us and form PEPF another organization
now that exists in the state and so but we were on good terms with them the Joe McMurray
who was a very active member of that group ended up being elected as Executive Vice President
I think from regional president to Executive Vice President and then next to see
see succeed at the presidency so out of the PS and T Loas came we were we were we were given Joe
as a for leadership role and he became one of the two international vice presidents you know
for half-s me well yeah after all the dust settled with the not all of the dust but
a lot of the dust because we were still being challenged and a lot of quarters not only by
by asking me but by the teamsters and the communication workers on George Miller and the
communication workers talents and bridging structural steel painters I never we were at a
representation meeting for New York State through way and the African lawyer I think his name
was a little little Irish kid who was a business agent that bridging structural steel painters so
we're going down the bargaining on the list at the through way proposed and he gets to bridge painter
tugboat captain and and assist to the through way representative they full-time employees
you have to be well we will probably keep them in the unit well sure we should oh what they do in
winter time just a little jockey the relief for the day of course and then we had an answer
what the tugboat captain did in the winter when the river froze and the bridge painter did
no winter but we went through oh hundreds hundreds of representations which call for a new CSEA
actually and we you know we've fared pretty well but then Jerry Werff
Al Werff his brother represented aftany here in the state and I forget the attorney's name but
he had an airplane so they used to fly in and fly out little two three-year three-year session
and whatever but then when when it came time for the for the major challenge and everybody was
in the aftlca we're after us because we were a couple hundred thousand strong you know local
government and state government and we were kind of very effective in the state I thought we were
in there is lobbying and laws and stuff like that we set this the prevailing wage rate and school
districts in the state because of the membership that we had in school districts so you know we're
a little compsel out things and they knew that and we we probably needed them I wasn't convinced of it
when they first approached us and I wasn't the executive director either but you know so they
started to commend and sniff around when Ted was the president the OER director for for the state
nickname Ted the adorable said to remind him of the headless horseman just shoulders with
hair growing out it was it was a very complimentary Ted led us through the through the
1974 strike which we called on Good Friday and I just told everybody that when people
call in tomorrow morning and say how effective is a strike telling that 85% of state facilities
are close of course it was Saturday and Sunday they were but the prisons were open and we had a
couple of our our gents we've got arrested for refusing to take a pick a line down like an over in
prison and and what I'd gone out I'd reached out to the teamsters and the teamsters counsels across
a state of degree that they would respect our picket lines for deliveries the communication workers
George Miller said they wouldn't send any telephone and prepare people in so I forgot to mention
that my father before me had been president of the local 27th chemical workers union
I'm asking the uniony chemical workers and and I listened to his stories all my life about
conventions and this and that strikes and I remember one time you get arrested for laying down
in front of railroad tracks to stop a train load of coal and go and restruct the plant
so I kind of I kind of had that and then through his affiliation I met a lot of the people you know
that he had done business where the new and then in mentioning Joe Dolen to people and asking for
hope they say you Joe Dolen's son yes and so well being here you know I know everybody was
most of the unions were headquartered here because of the political that need to be in the shadow of
the Capitol so we had pretty good success in 74 once a little course got served and I don't they
painted a painted a procedure procedure on the on the door the
still in our building and stuff like this all great great father for the media we get
fined and we lost our payroll deduction and we had to go out and get and we had coupons printed
and people had to pay us with coupons what they did in great numbers great we lost some money
obviously but the support was there from the people that that that we had had with us and then
Jerry command Bill McGowan beat beat Ted for the presidency and the law firm that we had
decided that there might be too much of a conflict of interest between between representing
CSEA and representing the American Medical Association and other folks so they kind of
resigned from great firm to Graph Boyhole Harrison Conway very effective politically in the
city and in the state but they just decided that there was the most time to move on because
the emerging if you will CSEA so they did two other junior partners left the firm and came with us
and that became our in house council so they kind of were involved in the negotiations with Jerry
and they were protracted I mean we were invited to Washington by on several occasions to do things
and see this and see that and Victor Gottbaum had us down in New York City to see his operation
council 3070 C37 you know just to you know I think I want to I want to Michigan I think to a county
maybe a state convention the council out there forget the number of the council but you know they
really tried to show us what what went on and the big difference as I look back now and
is that there was more member involvement in the AFSEM unions most things that were done
for the membership at CSEA were done here in Albany and as a result of that most of the activity
took place here and not that people in the in the Hetherlands weren't represented they were but
they weren't involved in the process and they weren't involved you know locally too much in the
state process but but what we did uncover was the fact that we had 57 political bodies out
in every county in the state that could affect local elections and local elections of a settlement
and senators that had to come here to do to do their business here so we kind of melted all together
Jim Fethish and Hoa was one of the in house councils and he he did he knew the political system
very very well and handled most of our lobbying force it did a good job with it in my opinion
as I look back but you know we kind of emerged and we were changing a lot and then the curse
the merger came when Joe was executive vice president and Bill was was the president and we got
our two seats on the international board and it was an arrangement made for for a slow slow
dues increase thing because the culture shock the hell and I came to work for CSEA to do is
50 cents a week we used to sell membership because that's what a pack of cigarettes cost
and 50 cents so we pack a cigarette so you know I can remember one of our organizers Jack
Pender that was his pitch and it worked you know so we went from from 50 cents a week which was
like six fifty a year or yeah six fifty a week so whatever was and then you know here
they were going to be confronted with this huge dues increase because it was per capita
the pay the international them yeah deyada so we kind of roll that in over two or three
year period I don't remember exactly what the figures were but at any end the affiliation happened
and and we were attended oh an international convention in Orange County California
another host the other one was another one that we that we went to as delegates for the first time
and excited our people you know to be part of this huge international organization
so you know things kind of settled in and who was head of dance in the international
yeah Jerry Jerry and Bill Bill was the executive secretary treasurer and Jerry was the international
president Jerry were Jerry were sorry yeah yep and Maccatee came in quick your
shortly after that I think Jerry did he was from out of Pennsylvania I believe yeah and he came
in he came in right after that I couldn't I can't really give you exact dates for that but yeah
so the Taylor Law was was huge of course for us for the Union and and then the 74 strike was
huge for a step we had other strikes in local government in 1975 we had a strike in
Duchess County the first local government to strike and we followed that with a strike in Orange
County successful both of them we fought IBM actually that's when I found out where the corporate
structure really worked in the state we had trouble in Brune County County Union we had
trouble in Duchess County we had trouble in Ulster County they were all controlled by IBM
they controlled the board they their budget they own the budget directors the county legislatures
so that really told me what we had to do but they we were we were growing we went I'd be I left
the field field of our position in I don't know 69 or somewhere around Aaron and 70 maybe 70 I
don't know remember and I became director local government and made about 9,000 members and
on the left in 82 we had to like 95,000 members and bargaining units in every major every every big
state you know 80% of the population of the state is within 20 miles at a through-way or in
an interstate so we know where we had to go to get to get the numbers and and we did worked out well
you gave us a pretty candid picture of Wenzel I want to get your your candid opinions
their pictures of the gallon and the government yeah yeah I didn't for some reason
Joe of course was a leader a leader in the state he worked for DOT as an engineer I think so
his activities were all pretty much with the state employees at that time we had
contraction negotiated four state employees and he said the administration of those contracts
was pretty much his bag and my counterpart at the time was a guy even in a jack carry John
carry who like director of state operations for the union so I really didn't have a lot to do
or to say to Joe or with him in his as I could have vice president role I didn't work for him as
president so my relationship was was really not you know not that much bill on the other hand
being a different kind of person all together in my opinion came in and we had
staff meetings every morning that we participated and so I always felt that was a part of the team
you know that that were set in policy Taylor George Taylor kind of left me one time I went to
one seminar and in my comments yes for comments at the end of the seminar and I commented that
some people came here for answers I came here for ideas and I got them and that's what brought us
together because I got a note from them it said can I use that yes and of course when Taylor
law contract came up he had me I had my name but he said to me there's there's three things that
you got to realize in a labor union one has one is that there have to be people to lead it
there have to be people to advise it and I have to be people to to manage it because it's big
business and you do need advice and but most of all you need leadership so I kind of approached it
from that and I was relegated to a position of manage in management to run the county division
which I did and take take things upstairs the bill was very open to that process very open
ones that had been open to it before him but with Ted it was I don't know more political
consideration I suppose it practical and Ted I think Ted had been the director of school finance
for the State Education Department and assistant executive director of the New York State Teachers
Association and I don't really think that his career prepared him you know for when he came to
the CSEA was part of part time job I mean feeling before him was used to commit lunch time at
San is me going to home or go where he went Ted was part time but he's the one that decided that
he couldn't do it on a part time basis and he became the first full-time president for the union
so we used to meet with him and he talked about MBO as management by a jeopardist and objectives
and you know things that were a little a little out of the ordinary for the folks that were here
that were out corrals in with with prospective members and around the state
talent stories and screaming at people and and here we sit down with this state educator and
he wants assistant member of the union as a bi-objective and otherwise you know what the hell is he
talking about but then he went but Bill was Bill was good Bill was a street fighter and
cigar smoke and street fighter knew the working people because he was one of self knowing you got
to know them you got to be one and he was he was and he he resisted his advisors from I
see him do it from time to time took a great deal of advice under consideration from everybody and
you would see your ideas surface which was great stuff so I was delighted with with his leadership
right through through 1982 when I left to to go on other things with my high blood pressure and high
cholesterol and everything everything else that that this racket that I could give you
so I'll quite a shift in focus from the Shared Dead yeah see a C8 career with C8 to finish because
the real like I said before association to union really yeah I also know another another major
fact it was a rocky go on the Washington Rockefeller went to Washington as vice president and then
his vice is I forget who the hell that can't remember the guy's name now the great guy what's
what we're trying to governor he came in just for an interim period and I mean Rockefeller was
a republic rat Rockefeller built the ball and Rockefeller built the interstate and you know
in our major cities eutica 13 percent unemployment buffalo 17 being up to 12 14 here in the
capitalistic head that our unemployment was like 2.3 because everybody that wanted to work
all the trades people you know working and he knew that and he was a favor of the unions for
that reason and he he was a good man to do business with Paul Douglas Bobby Douglas was a secretary
and Al Marshall who went on to go to the upper stable in the corporation that they own the
Rockefeller's own we go over and say what's gonna happen this year and it's a well give us 5,000
people in the capital park for a demonstration and so that's get the governor's attention and then
we'll you know we'll be able to talk to him about salary increases stuff like that so we did
and and we had one striker one time I the guy was president and I happen to be on good terms with
the mayor so I picked up the phone and guys well obviously he said come and pick him up and bring
us clothes so he got back on this bus and went back to the program state hospital down in the
long island as a detentant not as an inmate not as a yeah well he was on the island now but
I don't know whether it was public statement that it might have been yeah but the gal at that time
was Betty Duffy who was the president there Betty became the the regional president and she was
a two-fisted hard-drinking labor leader boy she tough but you know good a good a good leader so
you know when we were from Malcolm Wilson was Lieutenant Governor when from Rocky when he went
to Washington to Malcolm who knew I guess kind of that he was an interim you know interim
governor and it was hard to talk to him because he he really didn't want to pay much attention
so we we kind of you know put it in neutral for six months or whatever it was and then Legawan
and Carrie who Carrie and I happened to get together the imitation of some folks and and
CSEA became Carrie special effort association that's what the governor called us but we had some good
times under you Carrie started out bumpy because New York City was in financial bankruptcy
Yonkers was in bankruptcy so he had to create a mini max the mini max to save Yonkers and a
Mac big Mac to save New York City so we had some tough times in the beginning but he had a
budget director with him Bob Morgato who went on to a time Warner for a great job when he left
the demanding cutbacks and you know state workforce to balance the budget and you know we just
kind of said Bob you know you haven't been around long but but what are you going to do to reduce
your end of the the the folkroom here what about management how are you gonna how much it how much
are you gonna give it back there before we go to our people and say you have to sacrifice and
he got the message and things cooled off but the relationship with Carrie grew and became
excellent over his terms as governor we did well with our contracts and our negotiations and
you know when he needed some help some place with something we were able able to understand and we
we did it for him so that was not a difficult transaction transition because Rockefeller was a big
spender big spender built the university out here took Albany country club away from the the
elite of the area and built the university and rolled up all the all the fairways and all the
greens and moved them outside the city for them I mean he he and he had a guy it's I was trying
to think of the Chancellor's name who who won's a line met with one day to talk about the role of
CSCA and the university and ball had it felt like and I can think of his name and he looked right
across the table it was a little bit said let me tell you something he said Nelson Rockefeller
has told me to make this university system in the state of New York the best system in the world
and he said I don't tend to let anybody or anything stand in my way and he excuses himself
from left through him whenever he comes back so I said to Ted after about 50 minutes I think I
don't think he's coming back we probably should leave and he did and he did he built the university
center here and there's like it loving them across the state we represented all of the employees
so you know it was a great great thing for us but to go from Rocky to Kerry wasn't hard because they
both had the same supportive labor four labor and labor sport of labor so things you know things
worked out worked out well as far as I was concerned and then Mario when Mario ran he was a favor
to CSCA and we endorsed him and actually probably we're one of the major reasons why ran for it
going or because we met with him he's the Edmund Secretary of State so we kind of knew him a little
and I think we might have convinced the run actually and the day after election we were so
all sitting in Bill McGowan's office and not all of us C and I and Ferguson hold on a couple of
other folks and the governor walked over from the Capitol and came up to Bill's office and sat down
with us and thanked us all and so the relationship there was excellent you know I mean not not you
know they didn't give the state away to us but but they were there and a lot of things happened a lot
of a lot of employee improvement programs employee assistance program a lot of money was put aside
for for to better the workplace outside of you know the usual health insurance is retirement and
salaries there were a lot of programs that were built in yeah I mean to do to do things like that
and there were administrative procedures created to to avoid firing to precede arbitration if we
had to go to arbitration so there was a lot a lot done and I think we did a lot of it with the
help of AFSCME who of course had the international who had experienced you know along those lines
there was always a regional office here Steve I forget his name was kind of the band at the time
I don't know if he's still around or not but so the marriage took place when it when it when it
should have my opinion because we needed to we needed to do a lot of things that we we hadn't
been done before and of course it enabled the the due increase and so it gave us a lot of
steps support from the international allowed the the union itself CSCA to to increase their staff
our county divisions ranks quadrupled more than that so we needed to get out and treat our
county folks a little more attention we were able to do that so the marriage came I think at a
time when it when it should have when it was needed was that Steve Funtata no you asked me no I think
and later on as an air director I think it was I think I'd like to say it was a Jewish name but I can't
yeah see you're right yeah see you still around yeah he's had our retiree department oh good tell
him I said hello yeah he and I had some frank conversations about policy and about what we're
things what what was going to happen around town yeah yeah any other you talked about Betty Duff
Duff Day is one of the one of the region colorful any other people the region kind of regions that
you remember in particular or general that well we had Bob lotterbury in western New York who
now has been succeeded by by flow trippy I guess from what I understand flow I knew her when
she was I don't know what the hell she was but no I I got to know Bob pretty well I used to travel
we represented a county and and school districts in Buffalo and and the city of Buffalo actually itself
so you know I got to meet all of these folks and then Syracuse we represented on a doggy county
and and Jimmy regional president there and I you know we we became friends of course here in the
capital district it was kind of overshadowed the region was overshadowed by the fact that we were
here and that's where the regional office concept was created so that they could take their local
affairs out of this building let's see Pat Mashioly was a regional president I think in down in
region three I can't remember who it was before him but I had to know them all because because I
traveled I mean Nassau on Suffolk County we represented both county employees in the
Timstead North Timstead Noistered via the three huge towns and and in Nassau County we represented
oh I have a lot of stories that we won't relate here but this is just for some. No no no no
do that well my first visit to to the town of hymns that Raft Nathali was the town president
and the sanitation been wearing strike so they down I go the lone ranger I mean like nobody
nobody wanted to travel with me for some reason.
I didn't know what the hell was going on,
neither did I, but at least I was brazen enough to go and jump in.
So I get down to talk to her up, make an appearance,
you know, showing that the CSC is here and we're behind you.
And that, I also learned that the first desalination plant
in the Ark State, they were taking the salt out of
Long Island Sound Water for just,
and this is 30 years ago now,
where it was ever dreamed of.
You know, time I ever heard about it before,
that was on the ships in the Navy when we stepped
there making our water and they had a huge contingent
from Japan there.
And Ralph was saying we don't know what to do.
I said, what are you talking about?
He said, well, Ralph K. So who went on to be
I think Congressman and then the judge.
He was his brother-in-law and he was the town supervisor
and he said, Ralph wants us to call the strike off.
Well, you know, while the Japanese are here
to look at our desalination plant,
I said, well, tell them you'll call it off.
What?
He said, you know how long it took us to get these guys
to go out on strike?
They didn't want to go out on strike.
They were all cousins of everybody.
Everybody knows everybody.
I said, well, I'd say, you know, call off the strike.
You know, let me finish with the settlement.
One of you and I go see Ralph.
So we did and we settled a package that day
and we called off the strike and the Japanese
never had to know that we were having these kind of problems.
That's what you got.
Exactly.
Oh, there were a lot of the, I had a click
to bargaining specialist that worked for me
that was down the town of Union controlled by IBM,
negotiating the contract.
What time?
He called me up and he said, I want to buy some beer
for the boys before the meeting tonight.
I said, fine, because they were going to go over
and pick up a town board meeting.
I said, fine, go ahead.
So I don't know, we could so later,
I used to meet with them or be Monday, my troops.
And how that worked out is always good.
I got 10 cases of a can beer.
I said, can beer, what the hell?
And you get a couple of cases.
Oh, not always.
We took only empty cans over and we said,
that's how I can withdraw.
And I said, outside of the building,
while I meet with them, I said, oh, wonderful idea.
Wonderful idea.
We're meeting down in Suffolk County one time
and I used to meet with them every morning.
I had six collective work and I had special stake
while they had come in every Monday morning.
I was criticized for that.
We're bringing them in every week.
But we sat down every week and we shared experiences
and shared stories.
And to this day, I still think it was the best thing
that we ever did that I ever did.
Because they worked together as a team.
And if one was having trouble, they'd talk about it.
And ideas had come up and percolate up.
One of them was negotiating a contract
and washester Suffolk County with Tyron.
He expects the county.
See what four dozen donuts was.
What the hell is this?
He said, well, the negotiator for the county
every day would come in to the meeting with four dozen donuts.
And say, OK, well, we can all have our coffee and donuts.
He's good.
And he said, every goddamn time we asked for something,
we demanded something.
He had a big picture of Rockefeller on the wall.
And he said, he wouldn't do that.
So how can we do that here if he wouldn't do it?
So he said, I went out one morning and we
went in and ate all of the donuts before the meeting started.
He and his team, they had every donut
with us in the boxes.
And he said, we turn Rockefeller's picture over.
And incomes to the county team with us,
their county spokesman, they all broke to the donut box.
No donuts.
Look, that was a rocket's picture.
And they've sold a whole attitude change.
You know, it was very hard to very, very difficult to convince
people in any conventional way these politicians
would run their local governments for years.
Whether it was a town or a city or another fellow,
a little Italian guy who was tough as nails.
And I went to a meeting with him one time.
It's just set to watch and listen.
And the board supervizes.
We're all sitting up in their chamber.
You know, if they were running a meeting,
and we were sitting down on the floor at a table
like we were on trial.
And the chairman says, well, we'll start.
Can we start the negotiations?
And my man said, yeah, we'll start as soon as you get down
off that goddamn perch and come down
to get down here for a tunnel.
She said, they were a guest.
This little imp to dare.
But they did.
They came down.
So we had some good times.
We had some funny, we had some laughs,
and some good times along the way.
Not to minimize the difficulty.
Sometimes they were all bad times a difficult.
But it was time for some laughs every once in a while.
And I had the reputation of organizing
some of the best Christmas parties
this union ever had.
They're going now.
But we had them.
They were dying to make.
Oh, we do.
Yeah.
Why is the Christmas party on Thursday night?
I said, are you married?
Yes.
You're children?
Yes.
Well, do you want to come in here on Friday morning
and suffer your head hang over?
Which we have the party on Friday.
And you can stay home and start interviews your wife and kids.
Oh, good idea, Joyce.
So thank you very much.
So we'd have our Christmas party on Thursday night.
You have to people who would show up the next day.
They have to.
We're walking around here holding her heads all day.
So it was fine with me.
What the hell?
Make it better, nice Christmas.
Now we had some good times.
And I enjoyed it.
I left and went up to Hugh Carried.
And I became personal friends.
So I left and became commissioner of the Horton Corrections.
What's time to go?
Yeah.
What was it?
It was certainly an interesting period at CSEA.
Oh, yeah.
We had a really absolute transition.
Absolute transition from bowling and clamberks.
They still had them.
And they still did that.
But they had more educational seminars
and attended more regional meetings for educational purposes.
And in the end, which is good.
It allows the people to feel their apartment
and to become more of a part of the union.
So you would go to advice for people today
based on your experience at CSEA then?
Go, Teamster.
Just kidding.
I mean, I don't.
I, fortunately, a lot of the folks that are here
were folks that came here when I was here.
So I'm not a stranger when I come into building.
And I knew Danny, I think he was a motor vehicle operator.
Yeah.
Whatever.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so it's nice to come in and chat with them.
I follow what I get to newsletter.
They ask me newsletter, pay my dues.
I don't really have any advice.
Just stay support your union.
That's about it.
That's about it.
Because they never go any place without taking
your members.
Thank goodness.
You got any money?
I think we got a lot of great stuff.
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
I didn't get a chance to go through.
I got some still pictures.
Oh.
You might want them.
I think Steve would want those.
Yeah.
Rockefeller.
If I could find the one that's Rocky and I taking.
Oh, great.
Jesus, I don't know how many years ago.
And then Q.K. and you know.
Who was the first black congresswoman from New York?
Shirley Chisholm.
Yeah.
She's the one that convinced me that I should form.
We should form a committee, a women's committee for the union.
So about 1974, I went to Wanzel and I said,
where are the young lady with you in Scott,
who was the board rep from the Department of State, forceful.
Do what she was doing, but did it in a nice way.
So we pointed hers, chairman of the women's committee,
a high-quomance committee, and of course,
that woman's division now grown.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very huge, huge.
But we started that.
And I was proud of that.
Shirley Chisholm was a conversation
where her that convinced me that we should do that.
And you know, the little pins came out of women's places
in the union and things like that.
Yeah.
That was good.
We recognized the folks that would provide leadership
in certain areas and we identified them
through ad hoc committees or permanent committees
or temporary committees.
And if they worked and succeeded,
then it became permanent and the permanent part
of the organization.
Local governments, we created social service communities
and probation department committees.
Because they were the leaders.
I mean, they were not to be little, anybody else,
but they were like the educated folks.
And we're willing to step up because they were aware
of social rules and things that needed to be done.
And they always were willing to step up to the plate first.
So we kind of tune, started tuning people in.
I'm sure that they're tuned in more keenly now
than they were there.
Yeah, but they have to start some places.
Yeah.
So it's a good thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Yeah.
Good.
I enjoyed talking to you.
Yes, oh no.
My pleasure.
My pleasure.
