Support for the Media Project comes from the College of St. Rose, Albany, New York,
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fuller part-time options, 518-4545143. From Northeast Public Radio,
this is the Media Project, a weekly discussion about issues confronting the media.
I'll tell you, Christ, reliably off the record, about some charming people I have known.
Before I meet politicians and grafters by the score, killers play and fancy,
it's really quite a bar, oh, and these Superman meets up to interesting people.
They wallow in corruption, crime and door, tingling, wing city desk,
full press, full press, extra extra read all about it, it's a mess meets the test,
only Superman meets up to interesting people. It's wonderful, the rep present, the press.
The Media Project is underway once again, an opportunity for you to hear a commentary analysis,
and if you're lucky, a little bit of insight into the issues affecting the news media over the
past week, Dr. Alan Shartock. The City of Northeast Public Radio is down here at the end of the
table. Good day, sir. Well, the reason I'm at the end of the table is last week, you had an
insidious idea, infection, and we were all worried that we were going to get it. Yeah, we need to
spray the microphone after my visit here last week. Yeah, but so now, as far away from you,
as I can possibly get. Very good idea, and separating us, keeping us apart, the combatants,
being at their respective ends of the table, is Stu Shinsky, editor of the Pepsi Journal, sir.
Good morning, sir. I think you look very healthy. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate
that for my agents good to just look anything at all, but then Alan's much older. So it's really okay.
Was that a shot? I think it was. Yes, it was good to get underway. What were we talking about?
Oh, we were talking about the fact that we actually had an article in the paper about the surgeon
who operated on Alan's back. And since Alan was the most prominent patient this fellow has had,
our reporter quoted Alan in the story. And I made a little nasty comment to say, well, of course,
and so Alan got half off his surgery as a result, which is not true. But I will tell you a story.
I was a TV reporter down in the New York metropolitan area, really. And I decided to do a story about
this unusual at that time, controversial technique for doing faceless, called suction lapec to me,
which they use all the time to take fat off people. They just don't usually use it on faces. And
that is it's like putting a vacuum cleaner under your hands. What do they use about in the behind
or the side? Yeah, exactly. And maybe it's widespread now. But it was so unusual. And they let us
into do the surgery. We showed this woman who was before and then where the notion was we would go
back and show her after. I did a three part series on this interesting thing. And it turns out that
after we had done the first part, the woman refused to let us back to show her after. And I said,
well, I can't do the story if you don't show the before and the after. And she said, no, I'm not
going to do it anymore. And I called up the doctor and said, you have any other patients. He said,
I'll take care of it. The woman called me back a few minutes later and said, okay, you can come in.
It turns out that by agreeing to go on my show, she had gotten 50% off her surgery price.
And I of course didn't know that that would be an unethical practice.
On a journal, I'm sure you know, if you're if you're implying that that's what happened with me,
the answer is Medicare would not permit that. Ah, right. Oh, that's right.
They wouldn't call Medicare and say, you know, you got the sky shot dock. Can you take a little
take one? We want to say we want to say the federal government some money. Anyway, so what's new in
Pekipsi? Is there any news going on down there? Many things. We are working on a story actually that
I think is pretty good story from Monday's paper. Next week is the anniversary of Sandy. Superstorm
standing. We're looking back at the impact that the storm had. And what lessons will learn in terms
of responding to a crisis in terms of the power companies approaches in terms of just what people
can do to be ready for what we hope will be nothing next week, but be ready anyway. That's a good
thing. Absolutely. We have a piece of mail from a listener who says, Dr. Shartak, Mary Jo writes and
says, I suggest the media project broadcast would be made more interesting and less inside baseball.
Actually, this is about inside baseball, isn't it? Yeah, it's what we do. By the addition of a media
viewer, a member of the media consuming public who may have a different take on the stories that
are covered by the print and electronic press, I often find myself shouting at the radio during
this program and I don't ever think I'm the lone ranger. Thank you, Mary Jo. I like that.
The problem is how do you determine who that person is? Yeah, because there's so many.
What you could take, you could just sort of pull him out of a hat. Sounds like if a volunteer to me.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had that feeling. I guess so. What is it about rich people investing in
journalism? The latest is the founder of eBay. Do we pronounce his name Pierre Omedar? He is.
Oh, my God. He's hugely, hugely wealthy as a founder of eBay. And now he's deciding that out of
his $8.5 billion fortune, he's going to underwrite a new operation helmed by Glenn Greenwald, the lawyer
journalist who has been doing a lot of the revelations about the National Security Agency's, like,
general service program. Yeah, all that stuff. And so this is sort of a piece. Omedar now joins
Jeff Bezos who's paid $250 million for the Washington Post. Not so fast. Oh, no, it's the Boston
Globe. I'm sorry, the Washington Post. That's right. The Boston Globe went for $70 million to John Henry,
who's not quite yet. And he was a little baby. John Henry. Whoa. Warren Buffett bought 63 newspapers
last week. What do they know? Why are they investing? Here's what I think. They know one thing.
They've got so much money. They couldn't get rid of it if they tried before their time has come.
It's really Buffett is right up there and others. So why not install yourself in the great
electronic house of fame? In other words, for ever people will know who they are. They feel their
hands this way. For them to buy this is like a $5 bill for the rest of us. Don't you get it?
Don't you see? Yeah, but is this guy going to look to make money on it or fund it as a non-profit?
Good. I think you're going to see a lot more of the Bezos' and those are there who say,
hey, I can make a play at this. And again, what's going to be the reason for it? Is it financial?
Is it glory? Is it ego? You know, if this guy wants to fund this organization fine, time will tell
what it's going to be and whether people will care. I think it's actually a great notion. One of
the things that you mentioned a moment ago, which is the question of non-profit journalism,
you look at the sandlers who were the initial significant underwriters of pro-publica,
which has become a major power in investigative journalism, Winterbipulliad surprise,
or maybe two by now. And they initially invested $10 million a year and created this wonderful,
the financial backing that the managing editor of the Wall Street Journal
became the point person for. I think that this sort of investment by wealthy people is really to be
welcomed, notwithstanding Dr. Sharktox notions, they're just doing it to distort news coverage.
Can I say that? You know Rex, you are really too much of keep putting words in my mouth.
The irony is that this isn't new. Rich guys. Rich guys, what all of a sudden?
The guy named Pulse or maybe your guy named Hurst, Hurst, you've heard of him.
Frank and Et founded my company. I mean, you have to have money to get into an entity like this and
you have to, in essence, have a business plan, the business plan, the audience, the economics.
Again, that's going to determine whether we're going to hear this name in three years or not.
But you know, I can draw an interesting, is it inference Rex, he's always correct in this?
Yes, that's very good. Okay, thank you.
For your once more condescending comment. But you know, the other guys you all mentioned,
Pulitzer and Hurst, and this was their business. This is how they made a living. This was their
business. This is what they grew and it worked out for them. Whereas these other guys are coming in,
I'm just saying, I think I'll have some of that. You know, in other words, I've got so much money now.
They got time. Yeah. Do they have the strategic plan? Can they make it work?
In an industry that by the latest estimates may lose more than a billion dollars in advertising
this year. That is a billion off the top of what has already been lost in previous years.
What is it that they see perhaps that other people don't? Are they so easy questions?
Are they going to make money? They just want to have an impact? Or the third idea, such a deal.
I can get such a deal if I do this. Bezos paid pocket change for the Washington Post. He really
did, when you think about it. Or the globe. But I think that if you look at somebody like Warren
Buffett, who's investing in not huge newspapers, he's investing in papers like yours and mine,
Stu, the Pugetti Journal and the Times Union. These are papers that have influence primarily
in their local communities. And we, at our size, are able to do better than some of the really
huge papers. And why? Can you guys remind me of why you're doing?
Hider operations less overhead, less complex operations. Are you doing better than the New
York Times in your places? I don't know what the, actually, I don't know what the margin is in
the New York Times. I can't tell you what ours is because we're a private company. I see.
Always wonderful to hear from somebody who is always lecturing us all on transparency.
Well, I'll tell you something from Gennett, we're a publicly traded company. 30% of our revenues now
digitally digital revenues is 30% 10 years ago. It was tiny growth is there. The transformation
is happening at the question of what will be the future speed and impact of that?
Yeah, here's another statistic that is a part of that. You know, Hearst, the company I work for,
is a global multimedia company largest publisher of monthly magazines in the world owns part of
ESPN, owns lots of cable channels, television stations reaching 30% of American households.
Hearst, though, has been this background as I say in magazines and newspapers.
Sometime in the month of December, Hearst will become a digital majority company that is more
than half of our customers, our consumers will be consuming products digitally. So that's just
another mark of what's going on here. Can I complain to you for a moment, Rachel?
You could. You could. Every night I now get up, there's that magic hour between 130 and 230 when
I get up and worry about things. So I read the papers online. Oh my. And you have a marvelous new
app to you app, which I use all the time after I'm done with the time. The mobile app is not gone.
No, no, we're getting a new mobile app in a couple of weeks. Well, I show it to you right here.
It shines in the night and you pick it right out. But it doesn't have everything on it.
Aha. The reason I know this is because you referred before to the fact that you did a story on this
wonderful surgeon. And the first thing I looked for, obviously, was a story I knew I was going to
be quoted in couldn't find it. So I know a different matter. If you couldn't find it or saying
it's not published, it is in fact published there. Digitally, it's it is it does eventually make
its way digitally and to like, but how do I find it? Well, you know, there's always a list.
Well, you know, there's always a list of all the things electronic product is a different
product from the print product. And we actually are trying to differentiate the two more because
why should we make something that is what's the business model for saying we're going to give
you something free electronically. It is exactly the same as what we charge you for in print. Yeah.
So you give see now now that's very confusing to me. And I hope you understand that I'm very slow.
But in the New York Times, I can find virtually anything that's in that paper and you go for it.
I do. I do. I do. I pay for it. It's behind the paywall.
It's absolutely. There you go. But in the to you, I'm not now if I were to pay you, would you let me
have everything online? You do get everything online. It's just organized differently.
Navigation. And it's because the product is a different product. So where it's a much more
visual product, it has a lot more, well, we'll say I candy stuff that really draws. It's because
the metric that advertisers use to determine what they're going to pay for advertising these days
for newspapers is page views. It is the number of clicks. And so you go for volume. And now someday
advertisers will be smart enough to pay for engagement. And that will be a good day for us.
Will you ever do a paywall at the time of you? I suppose so. But that's probably a decision
going to be made above my pay grade. I'm just the editor of the place. I see. So to review.
Right now, if I go in the middle of the night to the to you and look for the article which I know
has been published with my name in it. And it's not in that list. Then that's because it's a different
product. If I hear you write, then if I were to buy the paper the next morning, which is what I did.
It's basically organized differently. It's all in there. But it's it's you just have to search for it.
And the time union is not unique in this. That's how it is at most. Is that how it is in your place?
Basically, yeah. Yeah. So do you hold certain things back which you know are going to be very popular?
Like my name all that we have. So it has its own website. Like we do. We try to put that. We would
trumpet that because everybody would want to find out about it. Actually, we do one thing that is
unusual. And I don't know how effective it is. But our major enterprise stories that appear in the
Sunday paper we do not put on the website on Sunday. We hold that so that if you want to see our
major enterprise, you actually have a story like how dirty is that water or something like that?
Yeah, something big like that. Yeah. We hold that back. And it'll eventually get out there. But
takes well, do you do anything like that? Well, we have what's known as an all content
subscription model. So for you could. Yes, you could. The virtual eagle has something called
no inky fingers. Yeah. That's an e-addition.
Basically, yes. Yes. But for our subscribers pay their fee. That gets them the printed newspaper,
gets them digital access to all the apps that gets them onto the website. Now there are certain
stories that are available to everybody. No, no, I hear you. So to both of you guys, if I wanted
and I do to buy the full newspaper at the virtual eagle, I can get no inkyfingers.com,
which I do and can see the whole paper at the time you can. Can I do that? Yes. Yes. We also have
an electronic edition version. I think almost everybody does. So that is very part,
ours gets almost 900,000 pages for you as a month. So that's what I ought to do?
Get any addition. Yeah. You can do that. It looks just like the paper. You're
committing an electronic fix similar to the paper on your iPad. And it's built on my iPhone.
Well, it's very small. Yeah. We have an iPhone app for the electronic. Oh, yeah, iPhone app,
too. Yes. So all I have to do is turn it instead of looking at it vertically, you just turn it
horizontally and then you get more. See, we've been talking about whether we should actually go into
the community to senior citizen centers and instruct people on how to use their computers. It's
kind of like that. That's where it's yes. Yeah. We've done a very good idea. That's the fourth kind of
something shot of the day, Rex. He was sick last week. Go easy. I'm sorry. If you're just joining us.
Good. Sorry. I apologize. This is the media project from Northeelba.co.ln.shartux CEO there.
If I'm Rex, my father to the time. Jean here with Stu Shinsky, the editor of the Kipsy journal,
a reasonable and intelligent man. Oh, I'm pissed. That's the fifth shot of the day.
Thank you. How so what does it take to get a reporter fired? I asked that in the context of the
Associated Press, which is created a great deal of controversy by firing its long-serving
political writer in Virginia as a result of an egregious error that wrongly accused the
Democratic candidate for governor Terry McCollough of lying to federal investigators in a probe.
An AP is under a lot of pressure. There's a petition drive to reinstate this reporter and so on.
And there are errors. There's something called a fireable error. No.
And I've unfortunately been involved in some terminations of staff members. None are exactly the
same as the others. No, but I'm asking you a question. Yes. Is there a line above which it's a fireable
offense? Yes. Yeah, there are things that are so grievous that unfortunately there is no alternative.
And what are some of the considerations we make it suit for this? No, not necessarily. You know,
the way we look at it is what are the standards and how did the performance in this issue not
meet those established communicated standards or practices? Is it something that was was there
negligence on the reporters part? Was there a willful act to violate these standards knowingly?
Was there a situation even worse beyond all that where it was personal? Yeah, yeah. So all of that
has to weigh into the decision. It's it's rarely cut and dried by the person. It's really the
situation versus the standards. So let me ask you both. What do you think of this firing? Well,
it's hard to know all that went on because sometimes there also are dynamics that develop as you
try to recover from an error. And you know, another report of history, you know, I mean, I don't know
this gentleman from the eight from the AP. I don't know what his performance history was. I don't
know what he may have had in terms of union representation or what other factors might have been
there. So it's tough to sort of look at it from the outside without knowing the full story and say,
yes, that was justified or a boy. That was not the right thing. Now the AP has had the same
problems you guys have had. They've had to lay off staff. They've had to balance their books and
do all the rest of it. I know we're AP clients here at WAMC and I know our wonderful morning man,
Dave Castina, has frequently seen stuff that comes over. They're just wrong. We're just and has
called them up and there I think they're understaffed. I think that's what's happened. I don't think
you'll find the newsroom in America that will tell you that they're overstaffed. We're right
down to a sixth grade newsletter and an elementary school. We need more sixth graders to put this
publication out. Exactly right. There are a lot of reason usually before you fire somebody, there's
been a lot leading up to us. And so that's what makes you think because it doesn't just generally
happen that somebody makes a mistake out of the blue and they haven't done this a lot before and
so they get fired for it. But this has happened some the North Adams transcript in Massachusetts
in our listening area fired a reporter recently after quoting a student who cast aspersions on
another local school the daily beast in Washington, which you know you know is married to a newsweek
fired Howard Kurtz their Washington beer chief formerly of the Washington Post after a series of
errors. The last straw being when he made a mistake in writing about an NBA player who came out.
Remember that North Dakota TV station who had the guy who cursed on the air and he was fired and
they brought him on the today show the next day and let him speak. He was just a terrible announcer
anyway. And the San Francisco television station that mispronounced the or read the names of the
pilots. Oh the pilots you know they were alleged Asian names of the crash landing and you know
something wrong. Information provided and confirmed by the airline they would have. Right.
Which had been once right. They had another meaning to the name. So there are a lot of things that
will get somebody fired but the question is if if it is not a willful attempt to mislead you're
a lot less likely to fire someone if the reporter is well respected and this is a deviation from
usual standards you're not likely to do so. Now what if an advertiser major advertiser super market
advertiser comes to you and says you know one of your major sources of income and says that guy
is writing columns that I don't like and if you don't do what I say and defy her him I'm never going
to give you another dime. How important is that? And we've been talking about haven't we?
About how tough the newspaper business is these days. You know you can sell your soul to save the
franchise. Yes. Or you can do what's right. Right. And different people will say both are right
and wrong. I think in this case you know this reporter in in Massachusetts I went back and I read
the story and there were some editing problems with that story. It was written improperly without
attribution. It was not edited thoroughly. It should have been caught in the editing and I mean I'm
not in that newsroom. I know this is just one. I was fired. Also actually two more people have
been fired also. But I think you've avoided my major question. Well I'd say still not on right answer
which you said no it didn't. Yeah sure you did. You said you want to once you give into that once
you give into that kind of blackmail then your subject. Well that is the right answer from a
journalistic classroom point of view. But in fact we have something called reality right. Well
I'll tell you we have we all a bit we have all had examples. We have advertisers right now who are
out of the time union as a result of stuff they've read in the paper. Good advertisers and most of
the advertisers understand that you don't buy access to the news columns when you buy an ad you buy
access to the eyeballs of the readers and once you give in once you lose your integrity that way
why would anybody have been about the first question out comes lightning from the heavens and
hits you in the head if you lie have you ever in your time seen it anywhere in your markets that
somebody has done that. Oh my five. I've seen examples where I think of media who have caved every
time. I'm not talking about your paper. I'm gonna give that in your market. No in the market. Yes
sure I've got two years. Sure I've seen it but it's a no win solution ultimately because once
once that habit gets established once an advertiser believes well okay I can I can influence that
now an advertiser the other thing is interesting is you may have a problem and an advertiser
happens to note it if you have a reporter who's a lousy reporter who happens to offend an advertiser
in his in the course of lousy reporting as an editor you should address that. Yeah it comes
out to the standards. I mean you know we've had situations where we've had and you know we consider
advertisers readers because they are and if they want to raise a question about a story they're
just as entitled to do that as some gentlemen sitting on his sofa on a Sunday morning reading
the paper who has a question well you know listen to them and we're gonna respond to them but at
least in our news you know I'm sure Rex's newsroom is the same we're gonna do what's the right thing
both of you being backed by superb wonderful strong organizations which will support you when
you do that but how about the schnokka's running the the local newspaper in some virtue town you know
who yes that's the real general situations could be very different that is really the peril if you're
the editor of a small weekly and you have a one or two key advertisers that can be really tricky yes
so on that sobering note this is why we need a good wealthy people to support not
for profit journalists my guess I don't know thank goodness for the Warren Buffets of the world
and Jeff Bezos and so on Dr. Shark Talk has been a pleasure as always yeah but you took six unwarranted
shots at me and I'm not forgetting I only kind of find it makes good radio well
to Shinsky editor of the gives you journal I'm Rex Smith from the Times Union thanks for joining us
on the media project
charming people I have known or I meet politicians and grafters by the store killers play and fancy it's really
quite a bar oh nice Superman meets up to the resting people they wallow in corruption crime and
or tingling links city desk pull the press pull the press extra extra read all about it it's a mess
meets the test only Superman meets up to the resting people it's wonderful who represents
now you remember Mrs. Sadie smuggering she wanted money to buy a new fur coat to get insurance
she employed still the green she up and cut her husband's only for she chopped him into fragments
she stuffed him in a trunk she shipped it all back yonder to her uncle in poe don't now news
Superman meets up to the resting people it must have startled poor old Sadie's on tingling
city desk pull the press pull the press extra extra read all about it it's a mess meets the test
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