This program is a production of WAMC News.
From Albany, this is the Legislative Gazette,
a weekly half-hour review of New York State government and politics.
Your host is political scientist and syndicated columnist Dr. Alan Shartock, of the State University.
In this edition of the Legislative Gazette, we'll explore a major change within the Cuomo administration,
the naming of a new secretary to the governor.
This week Governor Mario Cuomo appointed a new secretary to the governor.
Now don't get confused, the secretary to the governor is not the governor's secretary.
The position involves no typing or taking of messages.
The secretary position is an extremely powerful and influential one.
For weeks, we've been working on a new secretary to the governor.
The secretary position is an extremely powerful and influential one.
For weeks, it has been known that the current secretary Michael Dell Judas would be leaving to return to private business.
The man named to succeed Dell Judas is the governor's counsel, 34-year-old Gerald Crottie.
We'll talk to him in a few minutes, but first, more on the appointment from Bill Gralty.
By all accounts, Jerry Crottie is a young and talented man.
He has served as the governor's counsel, the top lawyer within the administration.
He's shown himself to be a talented mediator, a conciliator, an advisor to the governor.
But his appointment is not without some criticism.
Among those who were doing the criticizing, Assemblyman Jose Rivera, the chairman of the legislature's black and Puerto Rican caucus.
Rivera's criticism was not directed as much at Crottie as it the man who elevated him to his new position,
Governor Mario Cuomo.
In the aftermath of the announcement that Crottie would succeed Michael Dell Judas as secretary,
the Bronx Democrat expressed his concern that Cuomo had not chosen a black or Hispanic.
In failing that, Rivera chases the governor for picking a white man, Evan Davis, to succeed Crottie as counsel.
And said Rivera, our concern is that the top echelon of the administration has no black or Puerto Rican representatives.
Cuomo spokesman Gary Friar responded by saying the selection process focuses on experience first and ethnic considerations second.
There are two minority representatives in the executive chamber, Tony Obergos, who serves as director of executive services,
and black attorney Elizabeth Moore, who had said she did not actively seek the counsel's post vacated by Crottie.
The appointment of Crottie is the next secretary to the governor is getting mixed reviews among observers at the Capitol.
Bill Garalti spoke with one such observer, Fred Dicker, the capital bureau chief of the New York Post.
How significant is this switch in terms of Governor Cuomo and his administration?
Well, I think it's very significant.
I think significant number one because it's the most important point of position in state government.
But number two, the secretary's job traditionally has been a job of helping establish the major themes of an administration.
And when you have a governor who's facing reelection next year, who's obviously considering a race for president in 1988,
I think that position becomes all the more important than indeed Cuomo's case actually critical.
What is there that you can pick out in Gerald Crottie's background that makes him,
the candidate who went out for that job?
Well, that's a good question.
I mean, one answer, the cynics here might say is availability that the governor did not choose Crottie as his first choice,
but found that Gerald Crottie was the guy he was left with.
I think clearly the governor has known him for a while, respect him, has worked with him, knows him to be a good lawyer.
But I think many here, Bill, are wondering whether or not a lawyer is the appropriate person to be in that job,
which he has to role as a job, which has required traditionally broad view and a real sense of substantive issues,
not the more narrow approach that a lawyer generally tends to bring both to his job and to his client.
In that respect, how does he compare to the outgoing secretary Michael Dill Judas?
Well, on paper, and in terms of the experience that I've seen them both participate in Bill,
he doesn't compare that well.
I mean, he's a very bright guy, Jerry Crottie is, and everybody likes him, but Dill Judas had a depth of experience both in the assembly
and with a previous governor Hugh Carey at Crottie just can't match.
Plus, Dill Judas is a non-lawyer and an expert, really, or an experienced participant in the private sector,
brought that kind of breadth of experience to the state that I don't think Crottie has,
and I think the big question here now is whether or not Jerry Crottie can really be up to the,
live up to the tradition of past secretaries like Michael Dill Judas and Robert Morgato.
Well, Michael Dill Judas was a very private person, very low profile, at least to the public.
Do you expect Crottie to be any different?
Well, I'm not sure if it was Michael Dill Judas's style as much as it was with the governor demanded.
There's no question at the job of secretary change dramatically when Mario Cuomo became governor,
because Mario Cuomo, unlike Hugh Carey and Nelson Rockefeller, was a, is a governor who wanted to be involved
in the day-to-day running of things, and is a much more visible and activist governor than we've seen in many years.
So he redefined the position of secretary, and I'm sure in selecting Jerry Crottie as, in selecting Michael Dill Judas,
the governor made that clear.
So I suspect that what we see of Jerry Crottie, at least that we in the press,
will be what the governor wants us to see, and Crottie I think is a very good soldier and will do what the governor wants.
Could it be at this stage in the Cuomo administration that some of the burden that Dill Judas had been
shouldering is going to be transferred to others, say, Dr. Axelrod, perhaps people like that?
I don't really think so. I think that next to the governor, when someone is accountable or answerable,
to what's going on in the government, it's the secretary. And while there's been some reliance on what they called
super commissioners, where Dr. Axelrod and health might assume some additional responsibility for coordinating administrative
program initiatives still in all, it's been the secretary and it's still the secretary who has to coordinate the running of state government,
and there's no one between the secretary and the governor.
Fred, thanks very much.
Fred Dicker. Now let's hear from the man himself, the new secretary to the governor, Jerry Crottie.
Congratulations on your appointment as secretary. Jerry, let me ask you this. Are you tough enough for this job?
Well, thank you, first of all, Alan. I don't know that it's a question of being tough enough.
I think it's a question of what I've accomplished thus far.
And if you look at what I've been able to do, I think the results have been good.
Since 83, just recently, looking at the last couple of years, there was the oil negotiation in the summer of 83.
That gave us $200 million of cash when we needed it desperately.
When you look at the progress of the legislative program, I think we accomplished over 50% of the program in 83, 55% last year,
65% this year. So I think the results have been good already.
I don't think it's a question of being tough, but if that will be the measurement, yes, I suppose I will be tough enough.
Now, of course, a lot of all listeners will understand that in those negotiations over the oil revenues,
you had to be fairly tough with perhaps some of the toughest characters in the country, the oil company.
Well, 16 out of the 18 companies settled with us in the first set of negotiations.
Those are 16 of the biggest oil companies in the country, perhaps the world.
Some of the biggest lawyers, some of the best law firms in the world.
That's right. And you went up against them.
That's correct as well. And we did a fine job there.
The support out of the Council's office and the budget division was excellent.
Is it a question of being tough? I still don't know if that's the measurement.
I do know that the result was very, very good for the state of New York.
You've been described as a nice guy.
Is that a danger for you in this job?
People think you're too much of a nice guy, too much of an agreeer.
Will they test your metal as you come into this new job, which is generally known to be the de facto chief of staff for the governor?
Will in fact they be testing you more so than they did as Council?
Well, I think certainly you're tested in different ways.
I don't think being regarded as a nice guy is going to hurt.
The role will be somewhat different.
In fact, I think my approach will be to capitalize on that.
The fact of the matter is that I have tried to get along with people when it was not inimical to the governors in New York.
I think that's the way to get the most things accomplished over a long period of time.
I don't believe in short-term confrontations for a confrontation's sake.
That doesn't make sense to me. I don't think it makes sense to the governor as well.
Are you happy that you got this job?
I'm extremely excited and very happy, yes.
We have been very busy. It's hard to say that, again, a lot of thought because I haven't had the opportunity.
The fact of the matter is that between the end of the session and then the bill period, I knew at the time that the governor was considering his options, what he might do.
I can't say that I aspired to it because the position that the governor had given me here is a great one.
The council to the governor is a job that I've taken an awful lot of pride in and frankly I've loved it and I'm going to miss it very, very much.
But this is another great opportunity and now that it's starting to sink in, I'm very much looking forward to it. And yes, I am happy about it.
You are, of course, the governor's lawyer. Everyone knows that.
You want to describe yourself as running a little law firm up here on the second floor. It's not such a little law firm either.
So now let me ask you this. You're moving into the secretary's job.
The secretary's job, I think, is more of a policy than a straight legal job.
So you're moving somewhat from the law firm to the more policy-oriented center or some would say the more political hub of the governor's office.
Does that scare you leaving this sort of professional orientation behind?
No, certainly there is a bit of anxiety with any new position.
I'd be lying to you if I told you I didn't feel any of that. I certainly do.
But fight, scare, no, not at all. I will miss the discipline of a law office. I love that.
But I don't think the new position really will present anything to be afraid of.
I'm very much looking forward to getting into more of a policy development role.
Looking forward to working with the great people that are in other parts of the chamber.
I relate to them now in my position as counsel, but of course they don't really report to me. They report to the secretary.
I'm looking forward to that.
The governor often refers to the role of secretary as coordinator, keeping everybody moving on one track.
And that's easy to get off that track. I think I'll be good at that.
I'm going to ask you an honesty question, Cratee, and I want you to answer up here.
Do you ever get really ripping mad?
Yes.
Could you tell us something about what that looks like?
No. I can see you've been around the governor too long.
Your family. Is your family happy that this is happening to you?
I think so. I think so. My wife, Lucy, has been absolutely wonderful about the whole thing.
I said at the announcement press conference the other day that with all due respect to the governor,
it's really Lucy and the children who make all this possible. And it's true.
I can't really express how important that is to being able to do something like this.
But Lucy is very happy and very supportive, and the children are too.
I think child of yours ever had the experience of picking up the phone and finding the governor on the other end?
Sure. Sure they. And I love listening to the conversation. It's happened a couple of times.
What's the earliest the governor calls you in the morning?
You know, you asked me this question the last time we did this.
You're a great lawyer because you remember from the last time. It was a while ago.
I don't think I answered the question then.
It's sometimes very early, but I don't really recall.
Well, so let me ask you a political science question. Could we measure power in terms of how early the calls came?
In other words, the higher up you go on the chain, the earlier the call might likely be.
If you were going to measure it in those terms, then I suppose you could do that.
Yes. But you won't name an hour for it?
No. We've often spoken very early in the morning.
We're late at night. It depends on what's going on really.
I think you all have made too much out of that.
Are you a workaholic?
Well, I'm glad you will give me the opportunity to clear this up, Alan.
I spoke with Peg Brin about this just two weeks ago,
and pointed out very definitively that not only was I not a workaholic,
I was not a huffy workaholic, which he accused me of.
Hey, who?
Peg Brin, of Inside Albany fame.
Oh, same?
No, I don't consider myself a workaholic. The governor works extremely hard.
And so do we all. The work doesn't stop at five or five thirty.
People's demands on their government just don't stop in an orderly fashion.
They never stop.
I think a workaholic is somebody who absolutely feels compelled to be at their desk.
I'm not that way. The governor is not that way. He's very attentive to his work.
So am I. I love to be with my family. And when I don't have to be here, that's where I am.
You're not much of a social schmoozer.
Not really. No. The social schmoozing gets you anywhere.
There are lobbyists who swear by this around. This cap, people, expensive hands,
taking the drinks, taking the dinner, seeing them at parties.
Here's this guy who's at the center of the power hub, Jerry Crowdy.
He says, okay, I come to work. I do my job and I go home.
What about all those hundreds of invitations, which people are always pressing on you?
You can't really accept them. A lot of people do.
And it's almost their job to do it. I don't misunderstand me. I don't knock that sort of thing.
It's important. It's a good way for people to get together and exchange points of view.
I don't do much of it myself simply because I don't have the time.
For every hour that I'd be out at one of those affairs or parties,
it'd be another hour attacked onto the end of my day.
Because the work wouldn't stop while I was off doing that.
It just means that I'd have to come back to the office that much later and be up that much later at night.
And physical stamina is something that's essential to this job.
So you can't do it without any sleep. You have to get some.
So to me, it's just a practical imperative to get the work done. I can't do much of it.
I do think it's helpful, though. As I say,
I always get reports from my people or program people who attend those things
and they talk to certain people, hear certain things.
It's helpful. It's a good way of getting information.
They say in an advertising firm, fast up, quick out.
Here you are at a relatively young age, Jerry.
You're at the top of state government now. I mean, when Prime Advised to the Governor,
in the back of your mind is there, what's next?
I mean, do you have to worry about, could you have a family, ever wife?
What do I do next? How do I follow this act?
And also, does it make you a little nervous in the middle at wee hours of the morning
that because you're higher, people will be trying to knock you off this pedestal?
So those are two questions.
That goes with the job. I don't doubt that there'll be people not from the inside.
We've got an excellent team, but there's always somebody trying to knock you over.
That doesn't bother me at all.
I think one of the reasons that I've had some success, first of all, luck.
I have a very healthy sense of how things happen, I hope, in this world.
And I think a lot of it is just good fortune being in the right place at the right time.
A lot of it is very hard work.
I don't worry about the next step too much because one of the reasons that I've had,
one of the other reasons I've had some success, is that I've focused on the job
that I'm doing right now, intensely.
And that has worked pretty well. I think it's a good formula.
Certainly, I am most concerned about my family.
And my children are young. That's another bit of good fortune.
I'm not in a situation where I have to pay for high school or college educations yet.
At some point, I'll get there.
But that's one of the benefits of being my age and having a younger family.
So, again, that's good fortune.
Certainly, at some point, I'm not there yet.
But at some point, I'll have to start worrying about the next step.
But I'm not right now.
At this point, I'm worried about the secretary step and getting ready for it through August
and then starting to do the best possible job.
Amazing how reflective of the governor you are, the governor keeps saying he'd like to end up a judge, would you?
No, I don't think so, not yet.
Of course, he's a little further on in his legal career than I am.
Maybe I will too in a few years hope for that.
But not now. I've had, how can I hope for anything else as counsel to the governor?
As Evan Davis said, the other day, my successor.
One of the great, the great legal jobs in the state of New York.
I'd say the country, and I think he would too, if he had the opportunity to amend the statement.
It is a great legal position.
There are a lot of judges who love to have this job.
So I've enjoyed every minute of it.
Now I'm getting ready to become secretary.
That's another great challenge.
So while I haven't considered becoming a judge, I haven't really thought about other possible positions either.
I'm just going to focus on the short term for now.
Two final questions.
Number one involves panic.
It seems to me that the quality of a great lawyer is,
people are always doing strange things around here.
They're suing you. There's this negative law.
It's perfectly possible to cross a line without realizing around here that there are these fine tunings in government.
When a bomb explodes around here, I don't mean a real bomb, but I mean an emotional bomb.
Somebody tries something. Somebody exudes the governor. Something like that happens.
Do you find that you can stay calm or that your blood begins to rush and you get a little weak at the knees?
Well, you have to stay calm. You can't lose your cool in those situations.
You'd never get anything accomplished because most of the situations that we face around here involve those kinds of facts.
When they don't, they can usually be handled out in an agency level or by a commissioner.
We're fighting fires all the time.
I must say that toward the end of the legislative session, people get a little weak in the knees just because they get so tired from being on their feet.
For days and days on end, but that's not out of fear or panic.
I don't think you ought to be in positions like this if you tend to panic.
You simply can't. In fact, when you get to that point, I think it's time to go.
I don't think I've gotten to that point yet.
I think also, that's where legal training, good legal training is so beneficial.
Being able to take extremely complicated patterns of facts, sort them out,
for better or for worse, logically and analytically, they lead to a particular conclusion.
Yeah, hope it's right, but you can't be afraid to make a decision and go from there.
Our decision here is generally, what are we going to recommend to the governor?
And how strongly do we advocate it? What are the options? That sort of thing.
And a good legal mind, and we have a lot of them in this office with a terrific professional staff,
all of whom I'm going to miss working with directly very, very much.
But it's a great talent. Sort those things out, make a decision, and live with it.
Now, fortunately, we've been able to do that in the last two and a half years without any fundamental errors.
Also, there's a little bit of luck in that.
Let me give you a shot. How about the competitors for their job?
In other words, clearly, there were other people who were mentioned, because there's a lot of talent around here,
mentioned as possible candidates for secretary. Have you sorted that out?
Have you met with some of those people? Do you have a sense that there's any possibility of sore losing,
anything like that here?
Well, two thoughts. First, I don't think there were competitors in the sense you used the word.
The governor made it clear the other day that there was only one choice.
Certainly, there were other people that he had under consideration, because as you say,
we have a world of talent available to us in the administration.
I have spoken to a number of people, some of whom were mentioned in their newspaper speculation for the last several weeks,
and I think it's fair to say that everybody is very pleased with this decision.
Finally, you're very interested in politics, very interested here in Albany.
Do you ever think that you might like to see what it would look like in the ultimate major leagues down there in Washington?
The thought has never occurred to me except on those occasions when I'm talking to the media.
And they ask us, do we think about that around here? Do we talk about it?
The honest truth is that we don't. We're so consumed by the work that we have to get done just to run the state government.
Well, that there is never, I can't recall one discussion in the chamber about the presidency.
Jerry, I believed almost everything you said up until then, but the thought on occasion you haven't had a crossing of the moon.
What would be like to work down there in the Oval Office coming in and saying, but President Cuomo, here is my opinion on this matter, or Mr. President,
please be baffled that all of the fantasies that a human mind enjoys, that that one, that particular one, has never come flowing across your brain.
Baffled fantasies?
Shartak, what are you doing at the end night? I can't explain any of that. Why you'd be baffled or wonder about my fantasies?
I can assure you I have no fantasies about Washington, President Cuomo, the governor doesn't either.
It's fair to say that we're all focusing on the 1986, it's going to be a big year for us.
It will be, especially from my parochial personal interest, a very big year for me.
I'm going to have an awful lot of responsibility and very proud that the governor has invested me with this sort of authority and has expressed this level of confidence.
It'll be a big year, it'll be tough to run the government for all of us in an election year because there'll be a lot of people trying to make it very difficult.
Honestly, Alan, that's what we're focusing on now, getting ready for 86 and getting through it. The rest of it will take care of itself.
Congratulations, Sherry. Thanks very much, Alan, I appreciate it.
I think Jerry Crottie is a brilliant appointment as Mario Cuomo's secretary. The number one staff job.
It's brilliant because Crottie is to Cuomo. What a good seasoning is to a piece of meat. It brings out the flavor, but it doesn't overpower it.
It enhances, it does not overwhelm. Cuomo has proven himself to be a brilliant tactician.
He is overwhelmingly popular with his constituents. He has a hands-on approach to his job.
What Cuomo needs are men and women around him who help him achieve his goals.
In Mike Del Judas and now even more so in Jerry Crottie, he has chosen competent men who are able to sublimate their own egos and careers to facilitating the work of the governor.
When they are unwilling to do that any longer, they move on to the next phase of their lives.
And Michael Del Judas has just done it.
But Crottie brings something to the job that makes him the logical appointment.
Crottie is not an automaton. He is a sensitive and caring human being and anyone who spends time with him knows that.
By now I think I know the cast of characters that surround the governor pretty well.
And out of all of them I was really personally pleased when he announced that Crottie was to be the secretary.
And that's because while I have respect and fondness for many of the Cuomo workers, I like Crottie the most.
He's just a kind and sensitive man. He's dedicated to Cuomo not out of fear but because he believes in him.
And that of course is what you want if your governor, what you want working around you.
Of course Crottie will have a lot going for him. He has been the governor's chief lawyer for years now.
He has advised the governor on every bill, every sensitive piece of legislation that has come before him.
He has had some horrendous legal matters thrown at him.
And because he was drafting the laws, it was also Crottie who was responsible for liaising with the governor's program staff.
And then in women who studied the issues and recommended policy which was then translated into law by the Crottie law firm which worked on the second floor around the governor.
So Crottie rises to the top but has a firm understanding of the issues and what's more of the key players.
Not only does he know his own team intimately but he has already tested his prowess with the likes of Stanley Fink and Warren Anderson.
If Crottie faces one dilemma, it's to convince a sea full of sharks that he is just as tough as they are.
Because in this legislature they play hardball and warm nice sensitive people sometimes get discouraged.
But two things will help him there. The first is that he is an extension of this governor who has proven his steal this year.
And second, I think that Crottie is a lot tougher than people give him credit for being.
If he wasn't, I think I know enough about Cuomo to suggest that he wouldn't have made it this far.
You may remember that Mario Cuomo was thought to be a lightweight and quote, too nice when he came into office.
Well Crottie will make believers out of his detractors too. I'll bet on it.
Frankly, I'm happy for Jerry Crottie but I'm also happy for the people of this state.
That's our show for this week. Join us again next week for another look at state government and politics, build royalty edits and produces this program.
Please address comments and questions to us at WAMC Box 13,000 Albany, New York 12212. I'm Alan Chartock.
The legislative gazette is a production of WAMC news. Alan Chartock is executive producer.
This program is made possible with funds provided by the State University of New York College at New Pals.
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