This is the Environment Show. It's about our stewardship of the Earth and the beauty
and mystery of life in all its forms. I'm Peter Burley.
Coming up, Las Vegas is looking for more water. We hear about efforts to keep the taps
running while the place grows and grows. We go to the banks of the San Pedro River, which
flows out of Mexico and into Arizona. An international body searches for solutions to save
the river, while Oli North of Iran contra fame is trying to stop the process. Our ear to
the ground, Linda Anderson, meets an organization devoted to the environmental concerns of
native peoples. And chicken turtles are nesting along the Savannah River in South Carolina.
These stories and more coming up on the Environment Show.
America's Desert Southwest is an area rich in history, culture and plenty of opportunity.
That promise of a better life continues to attract thousands to move there each year.
However, the influx of new residents not only puts demands on municipalities, but on the
environment as well. Water is a critical resource needed to sustain the growing population.
And in Las Vegas, Nevada, officials are trying to figure out how to find enough to support
its citizens. The Environment Show's Stephen Westcott report.
The greater Las Vegas area is growing by 40,000 people a year, with a total number of residents
in Clark County currently around 1 million. Besides the warm, dry weather and constant action,
there are two main reasons why Americans are moving to Las Vegas and droves.
Dr. Dean Judson, demographer for the state of Nevada says, job growth is the primary reason
with new hotels and massive casinos offering an array of employment opportunities.
The second reason and least commonly known according to Judson is the migration of Americans
who are at or near retirement age.
For example, if you take the 1990 census and you compare movers, people who've moved
from one county to another in the United States, if you compare every county in the US with
every other county in the US, it's about 3,143 against 3,143, then the single largest flow
of 60 and older migrants is from Los Angeles County, California to Clark County, Nevada.
And that's almost twice as large as the next lower flow.
If the trend continues, Judson estimates the greater Las Vegas area will have a population
of 2.6 million by the year 2017. This influx is forcing state and local officials to develop
plans to deal with the added people. One of the most critical issues facing communities
in the desert southwest is water. The Colorado River supplies a number of states with water,
including Nevada. Projections show that at its current rate of growth, Las Vegas would
be unable to provide residents enough water through its own means by the year 2007 if steps
weren't taken to increase supplies. Part of the problem is an agreement made earlier
this century that allowed California and Arizona 96% of the water from the Colorado River.
Pat Mulroy is general manager of the Southern Nevada Water Authority, the organization responsible
for water resources for the Las Vegas area.
The reason was that when the waters were divided, there were huge agricultural communities
in Arizona and California. And Southern Nevada soil and temperature spans aren't real
conducive to agriculture. So Southern Nevada was never viewed as a potential agricultural
area. So it only got 4% of the lower basin share. The rest went to the large agricultural
areas in Arizona and California. To keep up with the demand for water, Las Vegas
area officials have devised a plan they believe will provide the area with enough water.
Pat Mulroy says the water will come from its southern neighbor.
Secretary Babet and the Department of Interior is right now in the process of promulgating
regulations which will allow the state of Arizona and the state of Nevada and the authority
to enter into an agreement whereby Nevada would pay to bank water in the ground water
basin in the state of Arizona. And then have a forbearance agreement with the state of
Arizona to where when we need it they would take, they would replace their Colorado River
water with the water we've banked in their state and we would then take their allocation
out of Lake Mead.
Currently 85% of the water used in the Las Vegas area comes from the Colorado River with
15% coming from the ground water basin. Deboost its supplies and insure flows from the Colorado
a second pipeline is being built for Las Vegas. That $2 billion project will be completed
by the summer of 2002. Mean time Pat Mulroy says agricultural demands for water far exceed
the demands of population in this area of the country. She says in both Arizona and California
about 85% of the water from the Colorado River is used for agriculture. Mulroy believes
changes may have to be made as far as how much water is used to grow crops. But Steve Bradhurst,
a water management consultant who has been involved in the Las Vegas water issue says,
the finger isn't being pointed in the right direction. He says the crops are needed to help
feed the growing population. Bradhurst believes the residents of Las Vegas have to be responsible
for themselves and emphasizes that while many blame agriculture and the large casinos,
it's residential consumption that is really the issue. Over 50% of the water is used by residential
units and it's for outside irrigation so that they just need to build the new residential areas
in line with the environment and have less turf and more desert landscaping and what
have you so here so conservation is a big plus and I think a lot of Vegas water district being
aggressive in terms of looking for other source of water particularly from the Colorado River which
is right in her backyard it makes an awful lot of sense. Records shown Nevada is the highest
public and domestic trougher of water of any other state. In 1990 residents were using 344
gallons per capita per day compared to Arizona's average of just over 200 gallons.
Besides conservation efforts summer hoping technology will solve the water issue in the
southwest but Steve Bradhurst remains skeptical. It's hard to me to subscribe to the notion
that technology will save us but that seems to be thinking of a lot of people and that is don't
worry about it. It will just continue to grow and technology will save us in the future and come
up with a way of providing us water for example maybe a bit cheaper to build a decolonization plant
on the coast of California and then instead of California getting all the water that gets in the
Colorado River that can get water from the decolonization plant and some of the Colorado River water could
flow to these dry you know states such as Arizona and Nevada and the next millennium and that
may be the case right now decolonization is awfully expensive because of the power.
Reports say that in 1944 water in the Las Vegas area was accessible at 45 feet below the surface.
Today one has to reach 180 feet down to touch water which shows the increasing need to find
alternative sources. So far Las Vegas officials are coping with this fact. However it will be several
decades before Nevada officials really know whether the right planning was implemented or whether
the efforts were a washout for the environment show I'm Stephen Westcott.
We are influenced by the map of the United States showing the Mississippi River flowing south
through America's heartland so most of us did not imagine a river flowing north out of Mexico
but there is such a river it's named the San Pedro and it crosses the Mexico Arizona border
southeast of Tucson. Not long ago I spoke with Paul Hardy the Upper San Pedro Program Manager for
the Nature Conservancy in Arizona. Paul we're standing here on the banks of the San Pedro River
it's absolutely beautiful there's not a cloud in the sky the sun is strong and setting just about
to set and we're looking at some cottonwood trees tell me about these trees and how they got here.
Yeah the Fremont Cottonwood Gooding Willow by Perian Forest that we see here has
adorned the banks of the San Pedro for about a hundred years. The cottonwoods that we're looking at
are anywhere from 20 to 80 or 90 feet high and anywhere from five to almost a hundred years old.
A hundred years old is about the maximum that a cottonwood lives to at that time it starts to
slowly decompose and return nutrients back into this riparian or stream side habitat.
But not long ago a lot of these were not here and I understand there have been management changes
which have given us some of this burden growth we're looking at. In 1988 Congress designated the San
Pedro riparian national conservation area this 56,000 acre riparian area that we're standing in.
Before it became a publicly owned resource there was a private company that owned this land
and used grazing as an economic activity up and down the stream quarter as well as the grasslands
on the banks above us. When BLM became managers of the riparian area in 1988 one of the management
actions that they took was the removal of cattle from the riparian area. There was a 15 year moratorium
placed on cattle in the national conservation area. Since that time the stream bottom which was
severely degraded and showed very very little growth in native grasses and some of the small
wells and cottonwoods we see now rebounded rapidly. No one anticipated how quickly the area once
given a chance to restore itself would rebound to the state that we're looking at.
The San Pedro River riparian area is of tremendous significance to wildlife in the southwest.
Hardy says it provides habitat for 400 species of birds that have been cited either nesting or
migrating through there as well as 80 species of mammals. Very high concentrations of breeding birds
of prey are found there and a great horned owl watched our conversation from a tree limb less than
30 yards away. Continued rehabilitation of the San Pedro which began when the federal government
set up a 41-mile riparian carter in Arizona and removed the cows is now in jeopardy because the river
is in deficit and the aquifer below it is being depleted at 7,400 acre feet per year. That being 7,400
more acre feet are being withdrawn from the river and the aquifer that are being recharged.
The water depths that is projected to increase by about 80% in the next 30 years.
In the United States the biggest water users are the city of Sierra Vista and rural homeowners
followed by the armies Fort Wachuka which is also in the area and farmers who use the water for
irrigation. To deal with this by national problem the Commission on Environmental Cooperation or
a CEC an international body set up under the NAFTA trade agreement has initiated a program described
by Greg Block former director of the CEC Secretariat. The program will analyze water used from the
basin and make recommendations. In this case the Commission's powers are limited to giving advice.
The intention of the project is really to do two things. One create much greater awareness
that we have an outstanding environmental asset there of regional importance. This is not just
a concern of folks that live next to the river but to Canadians and Mexicans and other Americans who
treasure this resource. Secondly our primary concern is to try to bring together some process
that drives at a basic consensus about the nature of the issues there and that they can come
together around a set of solutions that the local community implements with participation by
state and federal and other stakeholders. The CEC study team is scheduled to release its findings
and recommendations in early April but achieving an international solution to the allocation of water
in this international river and aquifer is not going to be easy. Circulating for signature in
the community is a petition to Secretary of State Madeline Albright. It is, quote, a petition to
protect U.S. sovereignty. The letter attached to it says, and again I quote, the people of Sierra
Vista are making a stand against this new international bureaucracy but they need our help.
That's why I urge you to sign and return the enclosed petition to protect U.S. sovereignty
and return it to me right away. This is another outrageous threat to the sovereignty of the United
States. Unquote. The letter is signed by Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, United States Marine Corps
retired. Olli also urges the signer to include with a return petition 20 or $35 or more. I'm Peter Burley.
This is the Environment Show and I'm Peter Burley. The Environment Show is a national production
and it's made possible by the W. Walton Jones Foundation, the Packard Foundation, the Turner
Foundation, the JM Kaplan Fund, the Oliver S. and Jenny R. Donaldson Charitable Trust,
the William Bingham Foundation and Heming's Motor News, the monthly Bible of the collector
Car Hobby, 1-800-C-A-R-H-E-R-E.
If you have views about the 30s Southwest or any other part of the environment, give us a call.
Our telephone number is 1-888-49-Green. That's 1-888-49-Green.
Email green at wamc.org. That's green at wamc.org.
I'm Linda Anderson and this is Ear to the Ground with stories about people affecting change in
the environment. This week, Indigenous environmentalists speaking for themselves.
It doesn't do you any good to be sober and overland if you can't live off of it. So says
one member of the Indigenous Environmental Network. I.E.N. was formed in the early 1990s as an
alliance to help Indigenous peoples and their nations learn about and share information on
the environmental problems they faced. Problems i.e.N. National Spokesperson Tom Goldtooth explains
that can range from treaty rights like the right to fish to underground storage tanks,
to wastewater systems, to solid waste disposal and collection programs, to clean air issues,
clean water issues, pollution prevention. But some of the main ones that we've been working on
involve the whole issue of clean up of toxic sites, mining, developments that either were left
abandoned or still in operation, where there has been lack of environmental enforcement.
Lack of enforcement Goldtooth believes is partially a result of gray areas that stem from
complexity in the governing of native lands. You know in many of our tribal communities we're
dealing with a couple jurisdictions from our own tribal jurisdiction to state jurisdiction,
to federal jurisdiction. In some of our border areas such as Canada and Mexico,
you're dealing with transboundary issues. So when it comes to the protection of our environment
and also the enforcement of environmental laws things can get kind of complex.
For example, a problem may be taken first to the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which in turn takes it
to the Environmental Protection Agency, which in turn takes it to some other agency, and on and on.
Goldtooth says by organizing as one voice, i.e.N. has had a positive effect,
cutting through some of the red tape, by acting as a bridge between native communities and the
various jurisdictions. But that Goldtooth adds is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to
environmental protection in so-called Indian Country. We still have a lot of communities that don't have
tribal government, the environmental protection initiatives developed, and that's something that we
have been addressing these past couple years to try to get the agency to appropriate more grant
money and technical assistance to two our tribes. In the same fashion that US EPA provided,
that assistance to state governments back in the early 70s.
Today, over 50 Native grassroots groups and individuals make up the I.E.N. governing council,
which is about more than just environmental activism. It also deals with the Native American
movement, supporting the survival of endangered cultures, and putting the protection of nature
in a larger social, cultural, and economic context. We have a whole different perspective about these
things. And you know, for one thing, a lot of our communities that we work with are looking at,
you know, the environment as something in a very holistic way, and we call that the circle of life.
So we try not to compartmentalize our initiatives to where we have just, you know,
quote unquote, environment protection here and housing programs over here and
and social service agencies over here. And it's all part of the environment for a lot of our folks.
And when we formed the indigenous environment on network, we were told by our elders
that, you know, as we put this organization together, as we put this network together,
that we must not forget who we are, that we have to continue to fight to preserve our values
as indigenous peoples. And those values are spiritual values of who we are and how we relate to
the sacredness of what we call our Earth Mother and how we relate to the spiritual forces that
exist in this universe. By unifying native peoples and sharing information, indigenous
environmental network, headquartered in Bemidji, Minnesota, empowers and supports native peoples
to take direct informed action that affects their ability to protect their lands from contamination
and exploitation. With you to the ground, I'm Linda Anderson.
And now it's time for the Earth Calendar. Right now, chicken turtles are nesting along the
Savannah River, which marks the border between South Carolina and Georgia. Just north of the river
is the University of Georgia's Savannah River Ecology Lab in Akin, South Carolina.
That's where Kurt Buleman, a doctoral student, is studying chicken turtles.
Chicken turtle is a medium size aquatic turtle found in the southeast United States.
Typically characterized by a dark shell, a yellow plastering, bright yellow stripes on the side of
the head. They have an exceptionally long neck relative to other freshwater turtles.
They are also kind of unique and they seem highly associated with seasonal wetlands,
natural seasonal wetlands. You're not going to find them living in the river, you're not going
to see embassking on logs along the river or in a farm pond or so. They're highly associated
with these wetlands that have fluctuating water levels. When the water levels are low,
the turtles will usually head for the cover of the wooded areas. It's in these areas that female
chicken turtles will make their nests. When I say the nesting period, that's when the female is
actually emerged from the wetland, travel into upland habitats, find a dry, sunny, well-exposed
area. They actually dig a hole in the ground that make a kind of a flask-shaped depression.
A few inches deep and they deposit the eggs in the ground that cover the nest up and they walk
away. That's all the care that a female turtle gives to her eggs.
Part of Kurt Buleman's research is trying to determine why some females lay eggs in the fall
and why others in the spring. If a female with eggs doesn't bury them in the fall,
she'll keep the eggs in her body cavity during the winter and bury them in the spring.
The eggs develop from the heat in the ground. Once formed, they go into a dormant stage and don't
hatch until 20 months later. This differs from most other turtles whose eggs hatch in about
60 to 90 days. Chicken turtles are about the size of a half dollar when they hatch and quickly
head towards the water for shelter and food since they're very vulnerable at this stage.
Chicken turtles are carnivores and Kurt Buleman says they feed on a variety of species.
They're feeding on invertebrates, predominantly crayfish and dragonfly nymphs and other aquatic
insects that live in these wetland habitats with them. So like any other animal in the ecosystem,
they're fitting in as they fit a piece of the puzzle into how that whole natural wetland functions.
Otters, great blue herons, fox and raccoons are some of the predators that will feed on chicken
turtle eggs or newborn. But according to Kent Buleman, the turtle's biggest enemy is humankind
that continues to destroy habitat. There are some of us who even enjoy turtle soup.
I'll never understand that attraction though because the shell is so hard to chew.
Thanks for listening. This is the Environment Show and I'm Peter Burley.
You're listening to the Environment Show and I'm Peter Burley. Still ahead.
Writer Connie Barlow explores the epic of evolution, the spirituality of humankind and the
relationship between science, nature and religion. We talk green about greening the American
corporation, a process that can also involve spirituality and learning from Aboriginal peoples.
Naturalist John Weeks takes us to his special place. Be related where geese by the thousands
honk to the rising sun. Stay with us.
For decades, evolutionary biology has seemingly clashed with many religious teachings.
Scientific theories and creationism have been the focus of countless debates.
But there appears to be a new movement that is attempting to combine the two.
In her book titled Green Space Green Time, Science Writer Connie Barlow attempts to show
that religion and science are not as far apart as many like to believe. The Environment Show
Stephen Westcott spoke with Barlow about her book. In your book you talk about the evolutionary
epic. What is it? The evolutionary epic is something that scientists and others inspired by science
have known about for a long time and it's gone by a number of names. Aldo Leopold called it the
Odyssey of Evolution, Laurenisely called it the immense journey. And within the past two decades
we've come to focus on the word epic of evolution or evolutionary epic. And what that means is
taking the foundation of the storyline given to us by science and understanding of the history of
the creation of the universe, the growth of galaxies, the coming into being of our solar system,
the geological processes of earth, the beginning of life honors, the development of life honors,
the coming to be of humans, the growth of culture. All of this together is our cosmic, our biological,
our human journey. And together we call it the epic of evolution when it's expressed in something
beyond pure factual science. When it's told is an inspiring story that can give us a sense of
meaning and give us a sense of place in the universe. The fact that spiritual beliefs are a part of
every culture is something that you touch on in the book. Does that show a universal spirituality
or does it show that man is universally creative in thinking? One of the very interesting things
that's happened in science over the past several decades is that there, let's say a century ago,
there was a tendency for people involved in science to poo poo religion. They would say,
religion, that's just the opiate of the masses. It's supernatural belief. We don't need any of that
stuff. We'll just go with scientific facts and that will tell us how to live our lives.
What's been discovered of late of people working in the field particularly of evolutionary
psychology is that we may have a very, very deep innate sense within our core human nature
that makes us ask questions about what does it all mean? What does it mean to be human in living in
this cosmos? What does it mean to be human here on earth? What is our role? What are we supposed to
be doing? How do we interact with other species? Those kind of value questions are not things that
science can answer. Those are things that traditionally religions have answered. What we're trying to do
is to answer those kind of questions beyond the range of science, but using the new information
that science gives us. So if man's connection to the environment goes beyond biological necessity,
how important is spirituality demands existence and survival? Is it essential?
There's been a lot of concern in the environmental movement of late that an over-emphasis has been
placed on problems, problems, problems, all the terrible things that we humans are doing to earth.
And they're right. We are doing a lot of terrible things to earth. But in order for us to be motivated
to change our ways and to start building better ways of going about interacting with our environment,
we have to be motivated in a positive sense. And so some people now are beginning to feel as I do
that the epicive evolution and understanding of our cosmic journey and our journey here on earth
is a vital way for introducing a positive component and excitement into the environmental movement.
There are many fundamentalists who have problems with this sort of pantheism or perhaps
eco-spirituality. Are they sure it's cited or missing a point?
Some of the leaders in the epicive evolution community come out of and are still members of and
prominent leaders within traditional religions. There's a very large Catholic component centering around
the Passionist priest Thomas Barry, who's a leader in the epicive evolution movement.
These people are Catholics and yet they're also embracing the epicive evolution to enhance
their sense of Christianity and give it a broader context out of which the human story given to
us in Christianity comes from. There are a lot of people involved. There's some Buddhists and some
other people involved in the epicive evolution movement. So it does mesh very well with traditional
religions. From the standpoint of fundamentalism, I think that there probably is a problem there.
But quite frankly, the traditional religions have a lot of problems with trying to interface with
fundamentalist interpretations, literal interpretations of religions of the book. It's very, very difficult
for anyone coming from a scientific background to be able to deal with. The thing that we emphasize
in the epicive evolution movement is that there are a number of people here in America and particularly
who don't really have a religious grounding. They care about the earth, they care about the planet,
but they just don't have strong religious roots. So it's something that I view can be offered
to people who already have environmental inclinations, but want to give their environmental
inclinations a cosmic grounding. That was Science writer Connie Barlow talking about her new book titled
Green Space Green Time. It's published by Copernicus.
We're talking green and I'm Peter Burley. Today we're going to explore efforts that are
underway to make business and more specifically American corporations more environmentally
responsible. You've heard many times on this show and others that individual business leaders have
found that when they cut pollution or reduce toxic waste, it adds to their bottom line.
So the real challenge now and also the tremendous opportunity is how to bring a shift
in the way business leaders think. So they think environmental sustainability is not just an ad
on something you do later, but is part of the way they plan and operate their whole enterprise.
And so the issue is how to green business. We'd like your ideas. If you've got a good solution to
this problem or suggestion, give us a call. The number is 1-888-49-green. I have two guests with me
today. John Perkins, he started life in the Peace Corps in the Amazon and he later started a power
company that creates or takes hazardous coal waste and turns it into electricity without producing
acid rain. And he's been designing market mechanisms to save resources like the Rainforest.
And he wrote a book called Shape Shifting, which has to do with how one can shift the
way one looks at things. Also with us is Debbie Slider and she's from the National Environmental
Education and Training Foundation. That's a government-formed educational corporation which
has a program under which businesses are teaching other businesses how to be greener.
And Debbie will be telling us about that. And so John Perkins, let's start with you. You proposed
changing the way business looks at the environment. Is anybody in business paying any attention?
Oh yes, I think a lot of people in business are paying attention Peter. I think most of the
chief executive offices of our major company are real concerned with the future of how business
is going and concerned with how the next generation and the generation after that are going to
survive. So they're very concerned. And then how does this concern get translated into the way they
function and the way they stay black on the bottom line? Well I've seen first of all a lot of
incredible changes during the past decade and especially the last couple of years where you're
getting corporations cutting back on waste, cutting back on energy use, becoming much more efficient
and looking at new products and new ways of producing products that are much more environmentally
sensitive. Now Debbie Slider from the National Environmental Education and Training Foundation,
your enterprise has a program under which businesses teach other businesses about how to be greener.
How does that work? Well what we've decided to do is to utilize the expertise and resources
of companies that have been clearly recognized as environmental leaders to help particularly
smaller companies who often don't have the same level of resources personnel or the time to address
their environmental problems. You may be aware that there are 5.3 million businesses in this country
but 98% of them are classified as small businesses. And the regulatory structure has been set up
in such a way that it has focused primarily on the large business sectors and has not been able to
address some of the concerns that small businesses deal with. So we are trying to find an easy way
to transfer information to smaller businesses to help them not only be more green but to be more
competitive. But you know I understand what you're saying and it's true that the big fellows have
the auditors and the controls in place and so on but isn't the real innovation coming from the
small guys shouldn't it be the other way around don't they have more to teach the big guys than they
can learn from them? Well I think you're right I think when you're smaller sometimes you're leaner
and meaner and therefore more innovative. I think that what we have found is that those companies
that are engaged in helping one another the larger companies have often said that they learn from
the smaller ones as well. Now John you have been talking about really changing the way people
people think and I understand from Debbie's operation that people who have changed their ways of
thinking can then teach others but what does it take to get this basic out of toodal change
by which as I said earlier the environment is part of the way you think rather than a problem you
solve after you've built the corporate structure and have it running. Yes well we have a program
that we call shape shifting the corporation where we go in and we conduct workshops with key
management personnel to help them open up their own creative processes to looking at their
corporation, at their organization as an entity that fits in with the environment that is part
of the environment rather than separate from it and to really go deeply into their
imaginations and their creative processes and come up with whole new approaches to running a
business. For example one such program that came out of this is something called the poll
program pollution off at least for earth whereby organizations actually lease sections of rain
forest to absorb the carbon dioxide that's associated with the production from their industry
and thus they offset the greenhouse gases. By selling these types of leases to each other they've
created a market for something that's environmentally wonderful it stays resources it absorbs
a dangerous greenhouse gases and it makes the profits for the people that are doing it. That's
such a great concept but how is it how can somebody who's sitting at a utility and say the Midwest
that has one of these leases have any assurance that there aren't people down there cutting down
the trees in spite of their best intentions in the Midwest in utility. Well that's a good business
practice has come into play and that's why it's important to have corporations involved in this
because they know how to set up systems that can guarantee that. We can have oversight committees
and people flying airplanes and using the latest and satellite technology to assure that that
isn't happening. It's really just a detail to make sure that isn't happening but one that's
very important and must be addressed and our corporations are phenomenally well suited for doing
that type of thing. Do you find there is an ingrained resistance at least among portions of
corporate leadership who just don't take this seriously that this is nice for you guys that worry
about the birds and the bees but we're here to make money and we just can't get flustered by
this kind of foolishness is that is not a problem that you see. Well I find that many in the
corporation are fearful they're afraid that they're going to lose their jobs that is going to hurt
business but if you want you overcome that fear and and help show them ways that they can move
forward and continue to keep their jobs and continue to make money and and still do environmentally
good things they're extremely relieved because I think in their heart in all of our hearts we know
that we're on a self-destructive course and we need to change it we know that we're consuming
many more resources these days then we can continue to consume and have the economy grow at the
rate that it's growing. Now Debbie in your business to business mentoring program those are
folk by the time they get there that have already seen the life or seen the green. Are there plans
that you have to bring this to a broader constituency? How do you reach the folk that
haven't seen the light and wouldn't necessarily want to sign up than one of your programs?
Well I think that as you pointed out the larger companies who will participate are committed to
this but there is such a large pool of smaller companies that while they may be committed in their
hearts to doing the right thing they just really may not have the resources to participate in
appropriate environmental activities and so what we're trying to do is look at existing
relationships that large companies have with smaller companies particularly with what they call
their supply chain. Those companies that they do business with every day there's an opportunity
to provide education on effective environmental strategies that can help these smaller businesses
be in line with the goals that perhaps their larger partner has set. One question I'd like to ask
both of you is we've seen a lot of interest in the environmental management systems,
ISO 14,000 for example systems that companies can adopt that put them on the track through their
management processes of ever improving environmental quality or are those going to achieve a great deal?
Do you find that there's interest in those Debbie and your people and secondarily and perhaps
most importantly will we achieve a time in which without an environmental management system in place
you won't be able to trade you won't be able to get into the European common market
NAFTA something like that is that something that's coming down the road?
Well I think that in fact is the incentive for most companies to look at becoming what they call ISO
14,000 certified. There is concerns about trade and many companies beyond the United States have
a very stringent environmental standards in place and it does.
So this really is the stick if you don't do it this way you can't you can't buy our stuff
or sell your stuff to our people. That's correct it does become a stick but often the stick can produce
very positive results. So particularly again for the small companies who are doing business with
a larger company that is ISO 14,000 certified they in turn may ask their suppliers to have the
same standards so that they can in fact compete globally. John let's divert for a moment in your book
you talked a lot about how people from other cultures folks who live in the rainforest folks who
a lot of us might consider primitive brought some real insights into this whole process.
What have you learned that's the most environmentally significant from your
dealings with with these very special and sort of wondrous people?
Well it's interesting Peter that as part of this corporate shapeshifting program we offer
a training session in the Amazon for corporate executives and it's been extremely successful as
the team building process but more importantly because when you live with people like the
schwa of the Amazon you find that they look at all of life as being deeply integrated with their
surroundings with their environment and they teach you a way of approaching life whereby that's
no longer separate. How did we get away from that? Obviously all of us were closer to that stage
than we are now. What happened? That's an awfully good question because it seems to me like these
people have what we're all looking for they work an average of about three hours a day and spend the
rest of it basically in play and music and dance and they live very well. That's a complicated
question but one thing I would like to say is I think that one of the things that these people
have taught a lot of executives is that being on the leading edge is where the real profits and the
future are going to come from. So in adhering to the ISO 1400 standards for example you're doing one
thing but if you can actually go ahead of those standards and trailblaze the path ahead of them
those are the people that are really doing well in this business. And that's so critical. I
in a quite a few years ago was New York states and Burmese Conservation Commissioner and was
wrestling with Jack Welch from GE over PCBs in the Hudson. And one of the things that he said to me
and I've never forgotten it PCBs originally were not regarded as poisonous and so he said listen
and we changed the standard he said you tell me what the standard is and I'll meet it. And the
notion that there was any obligation on the corporations part to kind of look forward and figure out
what would be best for the world is thinking may have changed but certainly wasn't there then it was
all due what the regulation is and that's it. And I think we're seeing a big change in that
Peter these days we're seeing companies like British petroleum who are out there taking the lead
and increasing their sales as a result. We're seeing companies like Florida, power and light
who start continually goes up and one of the reasons is because they are the biggest owner in the
United States of solar and wind generating systems and none of them are in Florida. They've
invested in these systems in other parts of the country. Great. Well I'm afraid our time is up
and we want your views about greening the corporation call us at 1-888-49-Green.
My guest has been John Perkins and he's author of a really interesting book. He's called Shape Shifting,
Shamanic techniques for global and personal transformation and Debbie Slider and she is from the
National Environmental and Education Training Foundation. We've been talking green about business,
give us a call, my name is Peter Burley and we will be hearing from you soon.
Okay.
If you have views about evolution or anything else let us know. Our address is 3-18 Central
Avenue, Albany, New York 1-22-06. That's the Environment Show at 3-18 Central Avenue,
Albany, New York 1-22-06. Email us at green at wamc.org. Green at wamc.org.
We all have places that are special to us for summit to city street, for others it's deep in the
wilderness. For naturalist John Weeks it's Beaver Lake outside of Syracuse, New York where thousands
of geese rest during their spring migration northward. In this portrait of place, Weeks reads
from his essay titled Watching the Geese from Van Road. The joys of nature are not restricted to
those who rise early, dress appropriately and hike much. Some of my best natural history lessons
have been monitored through the kitchen window at times still dress for bed. Herewith I recount one
of those great moments viewed entirely from the driver's seat of my car. The sun is not yet up,
but the sky at the horizon is beginning to show a warm red glow as I hurry from the house to my car.
The thermometer registered 52 degrees, but it actually feels much colder. It is just 4.45 AM as I
had my car in the direction of Beaver Lake, just over a mile distant. The clangerous chorus makes
me wonder if the geese are discussing Arrandavu, this meeting is an annual ritual we share.
I pull into the roadside overlick at 4.50 AM. The lake is uniformly covered with geese. I don't
attempt to count them many thousands, but just concentrate on the beauty of their graceful
silhouettes against the warmly tinted water. They draw back briefly from the shoreline,
but slowly drift in again. I get out my notebook, open the window, and pour a cup of coffee from my
thermos. I note a few geese in the sky already. As one particularly vocal flock passes overhead,
the chorus on the lake swells to double volume. The geese seem nervous and expectant. At 458,
the first flight of three geese leaves the lake passing directly overhead. The lakeside peanut
gallery sends them off with a rousing cheer, or perhaps a warning, who can be sure about goose talk.
The early risers continue to leave in groups of twos and threes. The chorus swells and diminishes
with each departure. Two other cars join me at the overlook. At 5.10 the sun still hidden behind
the horizon. The first real flight of seven leaves the lake. These first excursions are probably
family affairs. It seems that with geese two, some families have a pension for early rising.
I want the nuances of color reflected by the gently stirring water.
Rolls pearl, pink, and copper, a subtle reflection of the rapidly brightening skyline.
At 5.15 a flock of about a dozen leaves. They take off in a southeasterly direction,
but then double back for one more vocal salute to the resting multitudes. The response is deafening.
Some of the watchers get out of their cars. The geese drift back from the shoreline again.
A redwing blackbird lifts its voice above the chorus. At 5.20 a.m the skyline is visibly
lightning and losing its rosy hue. A few ducks take off, followed at 5.22 by about 150 geese.
They pass right overhead flying low. I hear the first comment from the human gallery. Incredible.
The chorus lifts again as another 250 geese rise up in front of us and set off in purposeful
fashion toward town. The sun is poking above the horizon as a dozen more flocks take off.
Their breasts glow in the sunlight. As they move southward they are etched against a still purple
cloud basis. At 5.35 a mass exodus fills the sky with sinuous lines and partly formed vis.
The population on the lake is thinning noticeably. By 5.45 there are more geese in the air than on
the lake. The horizons are liberally laced with lines of geese. By 5.55 the aerial pageant has
run its course. The few remaining geese on the lake seem reluctant to leave at all. A few
stragglers are casting about and calling loudly in search of companions. The other cars leave.
I decided it's time for me to do the same and set off for home and an early breakfast.
That was naturalist John Weeks, reading from his essay titled,
Watching the Geese from Van Road.
Thanks for being with us in this week's Environment Show. I'm Peter Burle.
If you live in Las Vegas or near the San Pedro River it's better for the environment
if you listen to the show instead of drinking the water. Call 1-888-49-Green and ask for show number
429. The Environment Show is a national production which is solely responsible for its content.
Alan Shartock is the executive producer, Stephen Westcott is producer, and Ray Graff is audio engineer.
The Environment Show is made possible by the W. Alton Jones Foundation, the Packard Foundation,
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