Legislative Gazette Show 9046, 1990 November 16

From W.A.N.C. in Albany, this is the legislative Gazette, a weekly magazine on New York State
Government and Politics. Your host is Dave Galetli, with Commentary by Political
Scientist Dr. Alan Shartock of the State University of New York at New Poets.
Coming up this week, New York prepares for the possibility of layoffs as the State budget
deficit grows. A challenge is underway for the minority leadership of the State Senate,
and is there a challenge for the leadership of the Republican Party? Those stories and
much, much more on this week's legislative Gazette.
One week after elections, New York has found itself in the same position it was during
April's lengthy budget negotiations in debt. Before the elections, Controller Ned Reagan
estimated a cash deficit of about $200 million. That total is since ballooned to about
$700 million. Following the defeat of the Environmental Bond Act on Election Day, the
State found itself several more million dollars in the red. New York had already started
spending money on some of the projects specified in the act thinking the issue would pass.
Now with a deficit estimated at over $800 million, Governor Cuomo and legislative leaders
have been meeting to discuss the deficit. The governor told our Alan Shartock layoffs
and I don't agree. When you see people changing bedpans and mental institutions, and you
see a lot of people working for very, very low wages doing work that most people in this
society wouldn't even go near taking care of elderly people whose bodies have to be
cleaned because they're not able to do it for themselves. When you try telling me that
these people who don't really work hard and they take lunch hours that are too long,
well I don't have a whole lot of patience with that. I've been in the private sector most
of my life. I know all about private corporations and private businesses and I ran private businesses
and I know how they work too. The comparison between that and public services is a very
favorable one to public service. Knowing all of that and knowing that the business we're
in is not making profits for ourselves but in helping the whole community. We do it
imperfectly, absolutely. Sometimes here and there a person might even do it corruptly,
but that's what we do for a living is try to help other people. Now firing such people,
laying such people off is not easy to do. It's not easy for them and it is not going
to be easy for the community at large. You have heard people say over and over, reduce
the spending. You've heard me say it Alan on the show. We've got to control the spending.
You've heard me express my gratification at Ralph Moreno. Finally agreed this year not
to spend a penny more than I asked for. You've heard me say that the legislature spent
a billion dollars more than I. You've heard all of that. But now you're going to see spending
restraints and cuts like nothing the people expected. While they cheered us on to spending
cuts, I wonder if they will cheer the cuts when finally they are announced, when their
hospital, their school, their roads and bridges don't receive what they feel they should. That
is going to be an interesting moment of truth in our society. Now what we're going to try
to do is keep the layoffs to the lowest number possible. We're going to try to cut the
budget in a way that does not hurt the people already in need, the people already vulnerable.
We want to try to do it keeping a live our mission which is to educate people, to house
people who without us would have no shelter, to help people who becourse of the way God
permitted them to be born or to grow. They can't deal with the simplest concerns and problems
of everyday living and have no mother or father to do it, no aunt or uncle, no philanthropy,
no foundation, no point of light that shines on them and attends to them. We have to take
care of those people, that's government. We have to keep that mission alive while still
cutting a huge amount of money out of the budget. The way the process works, the legislature
and I met about a week ago and the leaders said, Mario, you go first, please tell us what
you would do. You know, that's okay. Do you think that they're up? Do you think that
they understand the enormity of this and are willing to be statesmen like them usual?
Well, I'm not going to say that they haven't been statesmen like in the past. I will say
that both the assembly under Mel Miller and the Senate under Ralph Moreno have gone to
the voters and one return to office that appears by telling them that they were not going to
raise taxes and they were going to cut spending and they were going to cut it big and they
said it even more clearly than I said it. So there is no question about their political
position, which is cut spending. You will recall that last year the Republican said they
could cut two billion dollars out of the budget. Remember? Now they'll have their chance.
Well, when the unions leave... So let's get this clear. The Republican said they could
spend two billion dollars, they could cut two billion dollars. Now they will have their
chance. I don't think we're going to have to cut two billion. I hope not. Immediately we
don't have to cut anything like that from the current budget. But I will propose cuts
that meet the needs. I promise to do it. I think that is the leadership role I should play
and I will play it. And the legislature is eager to see me play it and that's all right
with me. Governor Cuomo speaking with the legislative
Gazette's Alan Shartock. Source has estimated the number of state workers to be laid off
at 10,000 and that's a minimum. The governor has asked the state's various departments
to come up with other cost-cutting measures as well. Our Mike Fonda Carro discussed the
economic impact of the state's budget woes with Hugh Johnson. Johnson is chief investment
strategist at first Albany Corporation. No, obviously you can't leave a good taste
in anybody's mouth. Of course we have to keep in mind that some of the problems that
we face are certainly not the fath of poor fiscal management on the part of the state
that's really we're in a very difficult economic environment. The financial services business
which is so important to New York State is having its difficulties as we all know. At
the same time I think it's important and very important to keep in mind that I think the
rating agencies have essentially recognized what we talked about a week ago and that
is it's not as though the state in New York is trying to brush its problems, its fiscal
problems under a rug or to bury its head and sand. The state is clearly facing those
problems and taking steps in order to try to get its fiscal house in order or to respond
to the challenges of a very difficult economic environment. So I think the agencies are
basically recognizing that we are taking steps in this state to do the right things.
What about the $300 million in bonds to be sold on Tuesday? How do you think this will
work out in the end? I think in by and large you know I think it's good news that the
rating agencies are not going to are certainly not threatening to downgrade or reduce the
rating, the bond rating, the credit rating of the state in New York. Insofar as that
cloud has been removed from the minds of many investors and insofar as the financial
market environment, the credit market environment, the bond market environment is pretty good now.
bonds have been doing well as the belief that the Federal Reserve is going to lower short-term
interest rates after their meeting. So I think given those two that combination that I think
that the bond sale is likely to go fairly well, there's good demand for bond in the
market, bond in the marketplace and as I say that dark cloud of the reduction in the
state credit agency, your credit rating seems to at least for the time being have been
removed. Do you think that will help facilitate the negotiations? The dark cloud as you put
it being removed, do you think that will facilitate the negotiations once the legislature and
the governor's office gets back to work on trying to eliminate the stuff? I think the negotiations
this year, they were difficult last year, I think the negotiations this year when we're
talking about next year's budget, we're talking about the 91-92 budget, I think the negotiations
are going to go more smoothly. I think that people are now really have much more realistic
expectations or forecast for what the economy, etc. are going to do and I'm looking for a
much more congenial working between the various, the Senate, the Assembly and the governor's office.
In other words, I'm looking for a much better environment, a greater spirit of cooperation,
in a very difficult environment. It seems like we're headed in that direction.
Few Johnson of the investment banking firm first all been the corporation,
speaking with the legislative Gazette's Mike Fonda-Caro. When the Environmental Bond Act was
defeated, there was already money collected to pay the interest on the bonds. Now that there's
no bond issue, where will the money go? The state says it will go to the deficit, but to a
settlement say the money should go elsewhere. Lee Farman has this report.
Two capital district assembly men are upset about where the money's going. In the past 10 days,
both have called for either repealing the tax or having it fund solid waste programs.
Columbia County, Republican John Faso thinks the money should go to localities.
The tax that brought in the interest comes from an additional fee on soda and beer purchases.
And Faso thinks the money should serve a more useful purpose than plugging the state deficit.
The people I think would be surprised to find out that even though they killed the bond act,
the taxes that were supposed to pay off the principal and interest of the bond act are still alive.
And I guess in a time-honored Albany fashion, the bond acts may come and go, but taxes never change.
And here's a prime example where I think we should be upfront with the people and either
repeal these taxes or take the proceeds from these taxes if we can't repeal them and we can't
muster a majority to repeal them. Take it and use it for solid waste.
Meanwhile, Rensseler County, Republican Neil Callerher has been echoing Faso statements.
He estimates the money coming in from the tax amounts to over $100 million each year.
Obviously, I'm very disappointed that once again we have a serious question of ethics as a
concerns the handling of the fiscal responsibilities of the state by the governor's office
and by the people who manage his budget. This tax which in and of itself was questionable when it
was passed because it was passed to pay for interest on bond and a bond is bonds for a bond issue
that hadn't even been considered yet. Well, what's happened, of course, is once again they
tripped over their skis, so to speak, because the bond issue failed and they're still collecting
the tax. My request to the governor still, I think, makes a lot better sense. Either either
terminate, repeal this tax or put it in a special fund to help these small communities close
their landfills and get on with recycling programs. I think using this tax for a purpose other
than what it was specifically identified for is not being honest with the taxpayers of the
state of New York and it's small wonder that that they raise their eyebrow and question the
reputation and behavior of the people who are supposed to be managing their affairs here in Albany.
Rentsler County Republican Neil Kelliger, the solid waste issue has been a big one for the past
few years and many are predicting some heated debate when budget negotiations begin for the next
fiscal year. For the legislative Gazette, I'm Lee Farbman. Manford Ornstein has been the state
Senate's minority leader longer than fellow Democrat Martin Conner has been in the Senate.
But Conner says he'll challenge Ornstein for his leadership role. Conner feels Ornstein is devoted
too much of his time to his law practice and not enough time to the Senate. Our Brian Shields
took some time to discuss Conner's hopes to become an Ornstein leader with the New York Post's
Fred Dicker. Okay Fred, I believe you were one of the first, if not the first, to report that
Manfred Ornstein, the Senate minority leader is facing a challenge. When the desk clears and all
is said and done, do you think Manfred Ornstein will still be the minority leader of the state
Senate? It's too early to tell. Ornstein has been in the minority leader's position for 16 years.
That's an awfully long time. He's gone through eight election cycles. In each time he's been
unable to put together the combination of things that would have been necessary for the Democrats
to take control of the state Senate. There's no question many Democratic senators are very
disappointed that the Democrats fail to take the majority this year and I'm sure many of them
are prepared to take their disappointment down on Manfred Ornstein but it's still too early to see
whether Ornstein with all the influence he still retains is going to be able to successfully
beat back the challenge. I would note though that in this political game, which is a tough game
that's played in Albany, you don't normally get a challenge to a leader of the legislature unless
the challenger has a pretty good sense that he or she has a chance to succeed. Marty Conner wouldn't
be publicly challenged in the ring ornstein now in my judgment if he didn't think he had a shot at
defeating him. What about Senator Ornstein's legal problems during the past few years? He's
been under indictment. It's gone to the courts. Does that play a role in this challenge? It does
ironically, I think to outside observers. In fact, or in fact, has helped Ornstein to some
degree. Now, it's stated in fact that he's charged with hundreds of felonies. Many of his fellow
Democrats feel sorry for Ornstein and their sympathetic to him because in part anyway, he's charged
with these crimes because of activities he undertook trying to take control of the Senate
for the Democrats. So there's a sympathy feeling that we shouldn't kick out Ornstein now because
he's got all these legal problems and he has them in part because he was trying to help the rest
of us Democrats. What kind of arm twisting or deal-making will be going on behind closed doors? Well
Ornstein, be saying, look, I'll give you this. If you stand by me, Conner, will he be doing the same?
Correct. He'll also Ornstein because his in-power will also be suggesting to people either directly
or indirectly that they will lose this or they'll lose that, or they'll be punished with a few
or staff members if they go against him. One of the reasons now that you're not seeing too many
senators publicly expressing support for Conner is that those senators, and I know some of them
are afraid that if they go public on behalf of Conner in Ornstein loses, then I'm sorry,
and Ornstein wins, then they'll be punished. So what some of the lawmakers are saying publicly
isn't what they're saying privately for fear of retaliation. Do you see Governor Cuomo or Assembly
Speaker Mel Miller taking sides in this? I know. Do you know, is there kind of an irony here? One of
the full outs of the setback that the governor suffered in the election last week
is in fact this challenge to Ornstein. It was Governor Cuomo, after all, who invested a lot of his
resources in trying to help Ornstein take the majority of the Senate, and of course the governor
didn't do well in the election, and he didn't carry anybody with him. He didn't carry the bond
issue either. So no, the governor will stay clear for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is
that he really, I think, doesn't want to be seen to be allied with a guy who was under multiple
indictments for political corruption. Fred Dicker of the New York Post with our Brian Shields.
Another struggle may be ensuing across the aisle. Senate Majority Leader Ralph Marino says he's
not comfortable with Republican Party's current leadership, meaning Party Head, J. Patrick Barrett.
What does this mean for Barrett and what are the implications of Marino's statements?
Are Mike Fondacaro discussed that with State Conservative Party Head, Michael Long?
Well, I think that's something that the Republican Party themselves are going to have to settle.
I really don't take a posture on what the Republican Party structure should be. I think the
Republican Party for sure has to take a deep look at themselves and try to figure out in which
direction they're going ahead. I think that's one of their problems. They don't know where they are
or what they stand for. I think the vote is reflected that also. I think they have some internal
problems that they personally are going to have to settle themselves. How much do you think the
candidacy of Herb London had to do with these calls from Senator Marino?
Well, let me tell you, I mean, Pat Barrett, I know for a fact, Pat Barrett was willing to
support Herb women for governor. It was internally that the leaders in the Republican Party,
and I don't know all of them, said no to Pat Barrett about Herb women. That was mainly because
of Mr. London was one pro-life, and two, he didn't seem to have enough money for the campaign.
They have it out and we got a pro-choice candidate, but they also got to
candidate that said he was going to put money into the race and never dead.
New York State Conservative Party head Michael Long speaking with the Legislative Gazette's
Mike Fonda-Caro. New York State's insurance department is continuing a court fight to prohibit
insurance companies from requiring AIDS tests as a prerequisite for some kinds of insurance.
The State Court of Appeals heard the case this week, and Karen DeWitt filed this report.
Currently, insurance companies in New York State are allowed to require an HIV blood test for
people who want to purchase an individual or small group health insurance plan. The state
insurance department has been trying for three years to prohibit the practice because,
as spokesman Kevin Foley, if the person tests positive for the HIV virus, that person could
be unfairly excluded from access to health insurance. Is that appropriate for saying that even though
you may not be sick for years to come, starting right now, you will not have access to health insurance
coverage. So if you have a appendicitis or a heart attack or any number of other diseases,
you won't get care because you're HIV positive. At this point in time, we don't think that that's
a reason for excluding people from a system that already excludes a lot of people.
Treating a person with AIDS is extremely costly because those who get the disease develop
numerous illnesses as their immune systems break down over a period of years. And the insurance
trade group Health Insurance Association of America has been fighting the state insurance
department in court. In August of 1987, the insurance department promulgated a rule prohibiting
the AIDS test and prohibiting a perspective in sure from even asking about results of an HIV
test on an insurance application. The regulation was almost immediately challenged by the trade
group and two lower courts have agreed that the ruling went beyond the insurance department's
authority. Following says by requiring an AIDS test, the insurance industry is not taking into
consideration the special problems associated with a person's testing HIV positive, such as the
social stigma it can bring, or the fact that denying someone health insurance is tantamount to
denying the medical care. If you don't have health insurance in today's society, you don't have
health care, except under very extraneous or poverty circumstances. A spokesman for the Health
Insurance Association says there's no data on how many health insurers require the HIV test,
no one at the association familiar with the court case was available for comment.
Foley says the insurance department has received complaints from people who have been turned down
for health insurance because they test HIV positive, but he says people who find out they have
the antibodies that can lead to the disease of AIDS are often reluctant to talk about it.
If one has gone to an insurance company, been tested and turned down and one thing that's told
that's the reason, people don't want to go around complaining about it, they don't want people to
know and they're looking for a way to get in health insurance coverage. AIDS tests are not required
for large group health insurance plans, the kind that most New Yorkers who work for corporations
and government agencies are insured under and Foley says insurers are not allowed to require
that only some people applying for small group or individual health insurance plans be tested for AIDS.
Current insurance law would prohibit them from picking and choosing who they were going to
require to test. You have to test if you do use the HIV test in any circumstance, you have to be
consistent in your use of it. You can't say well I think this person may be positive so I'm going
to give them the test, that's prohibited by insurance law. What we're seeking to do is prohibit the
use of it at all. What they're seeking in the courts to date have upheld them is the right to use
it generally. The Court of Appeals will issue a decision in about six weeks. In Albany, I'm Karen
DeWitt. Karen DeWitt's report courtesy of the New York Public Radio Albany Bureau.
Joining us next is our political analyst Dr. Alan Chartalk. I spoke with him earlier to talk
about the layoff situation. Will 10,000 state workers hit the streets? As a matter of fact David,
it could conceivably be much higher than 10,000 we are now hearing. In the past, there have always been
these advanced warnings of dire consequences as a result of a budget shortfall of some kind.
Quite frequently, the unions get involved. It becomes almost a negotiating posture. The unions
then work with the executive branch and somehow by attrition and other mechanisms, the dire
consequences are avoided and that may happen to some degree here. It has in the past.
However, I am convinced that the budget shortfall is a result of the lack of tax revenues coming in,
which are nothing more than a manifestation of the kind of recession that the Northeast is in
right now. We know that. When I spoke with a governor about this, he made it plain that we're just
online first because of our budgetary process and that a lot of others would be checking in with
identical sorts of problems. However, remember that Mario Cuomo's base constituency,
when he got elected and subsequently, have been the unions. Oh, they're always willing to yell
at him and to defile him and to talk about how bad it is, but in the end, they always stand
behind him and it is a very difficult thing for a governor to turn on his own constituency and say,
no. The problem, of course, is that the Republicans are so convinced by their own rhetoric that
state government has to be cut and the governor is convinced that that's the mood of the public
that he's saying he's going to go along with that. But he's also saying, don't come to see me when
there's nobody to carry a bedpan in your hospital or in a public hospital as a result of this.
And so I think it is clear that in the beginning of this third term, that he will take his medicine
as fast as he possibly can and just sort of hope that things get better. And I wouldn't be one bit
surprised to see state government taking advantage of certain abilities to kick out some old
dead wood out of some of these departments to make cuts at the university. I know that when
times like this happen, very often, the political agenda of various college presidents will be met by
eliminating certain departments they've never wanted around in the first place and getting rid of
some of the dead wood that they never had an excuse to get rid of before, when at a time when
in state government you just shouldn't fire, a very bad form, very hard to do and you need incredible
mounds of evidence. This presents a rationale for doing it all quite simply.
Okay, switching subjects for a moment, Fred Oranstein, the Senate Majority Leader,
looks like he may have a fight on his hands. He does have a fight on his hands with the
man named Martin Conner, who has always been one of the guys, one of the back benches.
The problem with Conner is that he is not in line for leadership. The people who are in line for
leadership are Don Halper and Donnie Halper and from sheepset Bay and a manual gold from Forest Hills
Mani Gold. They are not going to be happy about this way back bencher trying to do a leapfrog
into the top. So my bet is, as has always been the classic pattern, is that they'll line up with
Oranstein in order to prevent Conner from taking over the leadership. It is interesting that the
grounds that Conner is doing this on is not that Oranstein has legal troubles, all these indictments,
but that he hasn't been able to take the majority in all of these years and so now we need some
new energy. That's one thing that he's saying. And I suspect, oh and the other thing is that
Oranstein is apparently taking too much time on his law practice. They all take a lot of time on
their various business enterprises and law practice. So I suspect the second gets sort of cut out,
but the first is an interesting rationale. Look, we've always wanted to take the legislature
of the Senate. We have enough Democrats in the state to do it. We've never been able to do it,
kick this guy out. I just don't think that Conner is going to be the guy that they choose to do that.
Now this may of course cause a much larger sort of cataclysmic eruption out of this and out of
this may come a compromise that somebody else becomes the leader besides Marty Conner and that'll
be the big danger for Oranstein. Legislative Gazette political analyst Dr. Allen Char Talk.
And that about does it for this week. Join us at the same time next week for more news on New
York State government and politics for the legislative Gazette. I'm Dave Galethi.
The program is made possible with grants from the legislative Gazette, the newspaper about
state government subscription information available by calling 518-473-6482 and Empire Information
Services, serving New York and New England with electronic news release distribution.
The budget acts may fall on 10,000 New York state workers. I'm Dave Galethi.
Coming up on this week's legislative Gazette, Governor Cuomo shares thoughts on the possibility
of layoffs. We'll also look at some power struggles taking place in Albany. Join us each week for the
legislative Gazette.