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providing residents throughout New York State with total insurance coverage.
This program is a production of WAMC News.
From Albany, this is the legislative gazette, a weekly half-hour review of New York State
government and politics.
The host is political scientist and syndicated colonist Dr. Alan Sharton of the State University.
Hello and welcome to the legislative gazette.
This week we'll look at a new perspective on the criminal justice system and we'll hear
Lieutenant Governor Stan Lundine's thoughts on the New York City Home-Wes plan.
A slander in libel lawyer specialist will talk about libel laws for public and private
individuals and we'll hear much more about what's going on in New York State.
It's all coming up on this week's legislative gazette.
I spoke with James Murphy, Director of the Coalition on Criminal Justice this week about
his perspective on the criminal justice system and rehabilitation efforts across the state.
Your essential philosophy is that we're making a mistake in this state and that is we're
locking up a lot of people and there are other things that we could be doing to reinforce
their sense of self worth.
Is that right?
Yeah, I think that's certainly a major part of it.
I think another part of it is that we're sort of got an antiquated system with that's
very dysfunctional.
I mean by that I mean that you have local counties, you've got cities, you've got the state,
so you've got this range and there's not really a common strategy or common planning,
there's not common programming.
People in Schenectady County don't necessarily know what's going on in Genesee County.
The pre-trial programs vary differently from one place to the next in the state.
So part of it's simply management and I use the analogy of a hospital.
I mean we've got an archaic system that has to be managed more properly.
Do you think that it's so that most people think that we really have to be tougher on criminals
that we hear this all the time?
Do you think you reject that?
People are thinking that?
Yes, I do think if you just say that.
I think that people want to be safe and I think people want something to happen to individuals,
they don't think people who do wrong should get away with it and that's exactly what we
feel too.
People who do wrong should be held responsible for their behavior.
I think that's the critical thing that people want and people don't want to have dangerous
people on the street and there's no question that victims, people who are victimized want
to see something happen to the people who victimize them.
But I think that the polling indicates that individuals are much more concerned about
rehabilitation than the politicians and I think the news media thinks.
All the polls indicate that rehabilitation is I think comes out first.
Don't you think though that rehabilitation is sort of an afterthought you say should
we throw him in prison or was he?
Throw him in prison and then say should we re-obell it and say okay sure, re-obell it
in?
Well I don't think so.
I mean as the New York Times poll that they did indicate that crime was considered number
one problem in New York City but those responses that got the most positive reaction, 75% in
both cases were doing things with the education system to have an impact on crime and also doing
something with job training.
And I think that's really critical.
I think that's really important.
It has been said by many that if you're born black in this country you have a much greater
chance of ending up in prison than if you're born white and upper class.
Is that so?
Of course it's so.
I mean it's simply sometimes it doesn't have to even be overt racism.
It just has to be who's got connections.
Is it tremendous figure on this in terms of our rate of incarceration compared to that
of South Africa?
What's that?
Well last year I did a study and the facts are that we incarcerate whites at rates that
are similar to Western Europe in our rate of incarceration of blacks exceeds South Africa
and is nearly one in a, it's, well I forget I better not fool around with the math.
But South Africa in 84 incarcerated about 504 blacks per 100,000 New York state incarcerated
about 700 blacks per 100,000.
Jim Murphy.
Last week we reported on mayor Koch's new plan to forcibly place mentally ill homeless
individuals into state facilities.
This idea received a lot of mixed reviews and this week lieutenant governor Stan Lundin
has some thoughts on the new proposal.
Stan Lundin you've been monitoring the mayor of New York's plan to send out teams who will
round up the homeless mentally ill and give them the care that they deserve.
You've recently been at a mental hospital in Staten Island.
Could you tell us about that?
It's a statewide problem that we have a lot of people who have been released from mental
institutions or never got there in the first place who are homeless on the streets and
really need some kind of mental health services.
Mayor Koch in New York City is right in saying we ought to go out with an outreach program
and take these people to where they can get some help.
I went to South Beach Psychiatric Center in Staten Island because it's an example of a state
institution that will be burdened by some of these patients but I think we have the capacity
to deal with them.
It's the humane thing to do and it's the appropriate reaction to the mayor's action.
Now some have said that these places are actually snake pits and no places for human beings.
In your examination of the hospital did you see it differently?
I see it very differently.
There you have an entire institution committed to the idea that people will make progress.
Sometimes that progress is as simple as learning to tie their shoes for adult people.
As they get more confidence in their abilities, these patients are able to progress and eventually
to live in halfway houses or some other kind of community facilities so that they're
not institutionalized.
But these poor pathetic people who are on the streets obviously need institutional care.
Now Stan, what confuses me is that in the past mental hospitals have been accused of
our state mental hospitals of a lot of negative things.
People say that they get essentially foreign psychiatrists in a way of dealing with people
which is a talking therapy that quite frequently the psychiatrists who are born on have their
MD degrees but they don't really really conversant in the language.
I once saw a case of that myself when I visited one of these hospitals.
I wonder whether we're really prepared to do the right thing with them.
I think there are legitimate questions as to the quality of service that we provide on
a uniform basis statewide.
While South Beach in Staten Island may be an outstanding example, I may have visited the
Cadillac of mental health services in the state, others have their problems.
But the particular problem you mentioned of unqualified or uncomunicative psychiatrists
is one that proves the old law of supply and demand.
We're now finding that there is somewhat of an oversupply of physicians, particularly
psychiatrists, and we're able to recruit better and better qualified people to the state
system.
We think that we will be able to really improve the quality of mental health services statewide
over the next few years.
And you see this whole thing as reversing what we have called the deinstitutionalization
movement in which Mayor Koch described on these very microphones last week how there
were 90,000 people.
Now, there are 20,000 people.
Many of these people found their way out onto the streets.
Do you see more of a population growing in the state mental institutions at once again?
No, we still have a philosophy of deinstitutionalization where there are appropriate community
facilities to deal with people who are able to get out of the institution.
It is still a much better concept than warehousing these people in state mental hospitals.
But you can't deinstitutionalize people who aren't ready for it.
And you have to have the institutional capability for those people who need the most acute services.
Lieutenant Governor, Stan Lending.
And now, for some news updates.
The state commission on government integrity held its first public hearing this week in
New York City.
The panel is sometimes referred to as Governor Cuomo's ethics commission since he pushed
the legislature to create it last spring.
And Governor Cuomo was the only speaker this week at the five-month-old panel's first
public effort.
He urged the commission to move quickly in its investigations so that he can make further
ethics law recommendations to state lawmakers for the next legislative session.
We have to make concrete accomplishments in the very next session, which begins in
January of 1988.
I therefore urge you to accomplish as much as you can as quickly as you can.
In the best of all worlds, you would get to me recommendations that I could consider
for my January 1988 state of the state message.
And I hope for the best of all worlds.
Commission Chairman John Fierrick, who is dean of Fordham Law School, responded that the
commission would have some recommendations ready by year's end, but that others would
take more time.
In his almost hour and a half address, Governor Cuomo also urged the Fierrick Commission
to work informally with other agencies investigating corruption in New York State.
Now, you have the broadest mandate in this group of efforts.
The charge to get to the bottom of the causes of corruption and abuse of power and to recommend
all the measures needed to preserve integrity in government.
I recommend that you consider taking the initiative in working toward an informal coordination
that your restriction aligns a clearly set out in the various laws and orders that
appoint these different groups.
Now, you can work toward an informal coordination of all of them, and I am certain there will
be eager to cooperate in that kind of effort.
Cuomo got into a disagreement with commission member Cyrus Vance over campaign finance reform.
Vance, a former U.S. Secretary of State, told the governor that he could show his support
for campaign finance reform by giving up his unused campaign cash, totaling $4 million.
But the governor said he saw no reason to give up his advantage, as he calls it.
Cuomo said giving up his excess campaign funds won't help him get a campaign finance
law passed.
The FIRIC commission is looking into abuses by government officials and agencies, but not
by state lawmakers.
The legislature will have a separate commission to investigate lawmakers under a law passed
last session.
A companion ethics law mandates external audits of state agencies and authorities.
Governor Cuomo also met that day in New York City with former Democratic Senator Gary
Hart, who had announced earlier in the week that he has no plans to re-enter the presidential
race.
Hart, of course, dropped out of the race after reports emerged that he had spent the weekend
with model Donna Rice.
Governor Cuomo told reporters that observers shouldn't read too much into his chat with
Hart.
Gary Hart called me on Friday to say that he would be in the city, and he would like
to start by and chat with me about nothing in particular.
I said, well, I'd like to talk to you about my trip to the U.S. society.
He says, yeah, he says, that's one of the things I think I can be helpful.
And I said, great.
I'm going to be with Bill Clinton.
You want to join us and sit yet.
And that was it.
That was all there was to it.
Hart has already visited the Soviet Union.
Governor Cuomo is now planning his upcoming trip there.
For the legislative gazette, I'm Mori Small.
Rochester teachers have successfully negotiated a new contract, which will give the district
teachers a 40% pay raise over the next three years.
The contract also makes teachers more accountable for improving the performance of students.
Last week, the school district overwhelmingly supported the contract, and this week,
the teachers union voted 1109 to 169 in favor of the increase.
Rochester teacher union president Adam Urbanski says he's pleased the settlement was approved
by such a wide margin.
Teachers will be working harder than ever.
I think that the public won the dissappointed with teachers, but the public will have to
understand that teachers can do it alone.
There are factors that have to do with the family, with the community, with an environment
that will have to follow lead of the teachers and also make the same kind of an effort,
because only to a joint effort can we succeed.
The new contract offers starting teachers a salary of $23,400 this fall, and by 1989, the
starting salary will exceed $28,000.
The contract will also raise senior teachers' salaries to $70,000.
Rochester teachers are now one of the highest paid teachers in the nation.
Pope John Paul II arrives in Miami this week on a 10-day visit to the United States.
Media attention has focused on the increasing number of Catholics who differ with church
positions on required celibacy by priests, birth control, abortion, and women's role in
the church.
Bishop Howard Hubbard of Albany tells the legislative that the issue of priest celibacy
should be debated among church leaders.
It is an issue that needs to be discussed in the life of the church.
I think there are channels and processes through which that must take place.
Historically that has been through the sentence and councils of bishops.
I think that that's the only way in which change of that nature is going to take place.
Mass meetings of people protesting is not going to affect change of the church, but through
the processes and channels that exist in the church to affect change.
I think that's what the dialogue needs to take place.
Hubbard will meet with the Pope twice next week in Los Angeles.
A poll by the Albany Times Union of Catholics in the Capitol District shows more than half
a proof of divorce and remarriage and allowing priests to marry.
More than 70% say they approve of artificial birth control.
This is Brenda McMahon.
Jury selection for the Howard Beach case began in Queens, New York this week.
32 individuals with various backgrounds have been questioned and a list of 150 prospective
jurors is now available.
The jury selection is attempting to get a cross-section of Queens residents and the interviewees
include an engineer, a nurse's aide, a secretary, and several retired people.
Last December several black youths whose car broke down in Howard Beach Queens were attacked
by four white youths.
No one knows for sure what ensued in the confrontation, but one black youth who was being chased
by the gang ran onto the parkway to escape.
Michael Griffith was struck and killed by an oncoming car.
He was 23 years old.
The four white youths are charged with second-degree murder and also face other charges.
The jury selection will be performed in three stages.
The first stage will question prospective jurors in two groups of 16.
The second stage will question potential jurors individually in a conference room with both
defense and prosecution lawyers present.
And finally, the third stage will involve questioning by the prosecution and defense lawyers
of those prospective jurors passing the first two stages.
Reporting for the Legislative Gazette, this is Bruce Robertson in Albany.
Peter Danziger, you are one of the most accomplished and skillful of the libel and slander
lawyers in the capital district.
So I want to ask you this this week.
Why is it that there is a difference in the way in which public officials are treated
under the libel and slander laws and the media and the way they operate together and people
in the private sector?
Well, essentially the court has recognized two things.
One, the importance of encouraging free debate and free speech regarding matters of public
importance.
And when you're discussing and writing about a public official, presumably you're doing
something that's in the public interest and some of that is a matter of public importance.
And the courts want to and recognize that the first amendment saw to encourage that.
And secondly, the courts recognize that public officials, public persons, have greater access
to the media, to put their view across so that if a public official were defamed or something
was stated incorrectly, that public official has greater access to the media than a private
individual.
And those two are the basic reasons why the courts have fashioned different standards in
terms of defamation against the public official and defamation against the private individual.
So somebody in the private sector or a private individual might stand to recover in a libel
case or in a slander case where somebody in the public sector who had had virtually the
same stuff said about him or her would not be able to recover.
Correct.
Is there something basically unfair about that?
I say that because let's say that I'm a columnist which I am and I can say just about
anything I want about a public official within certain bounds but I have to really be very
careful if I say the same thing about a private person.
So therefore I might feel great freedom in libeling or slandering somebody in the public
sector.
Well, you know when you frame the question that way it would be unfair for a columnist
to feel that they can libel someone with impunity.
The way the standards are set up a public official still can recover for a libel but the
public official would have to prove that you acted recklessly with reckless disregard for
the truth of what you published and a private individual doesn't have that high standard
a private individual would have to prove that you were either grossly irresponsible or
perhaps even that you were merely negligent in what you did.
Well those are big words but what do they mean?
Give us an example about what you would tell me was a terribly irresponsible in one case
or grossly negligent in another.
Well, for example, negligence, let's say that you appealed information from an individual
of source and you didn't do anything more to confirm the information and it was a source
that had a grudge against the person that you were writing about.
It would be negligent on your part to you know air that story without further confirmation
but it might not rise to the level of reckless disregard for the truth because you may have
believed in the truth of the allegation you may have believed in the truth of the story
and therefore you were not reckless but as to a private individual you would have been
negligent.
I see.
Now do many people come to their libel lawyers and say okay I'm going to do this story
could you tell us where this fine line exists?
No, that's not really the way it transpires.
I mean I do in with some of my clients do a pre-publication review they'll come to
me with a story before they print it and you know ask my opinion and we'll go through
it and perhaps based on some of my thoughts they may rework some things but I normally
don't discuss beforehand whether something is negligent or reckless.
I talk about you know reporters in the media doing what's responsible.
I always say to my clients and my reporters I don't want them thinking in advance of
a story well for example this is negligent but it's not reckless and therefore I can
publish it.
That's something for the lawyers to worry about after the fact before the fact reporters
people in the media should be looking at acting as responsibly as possible and not look
at the fact and say well this is a public official I can be anything up to the point of
being reckless you know I never cancel my clients that way we try and look at it from a point
of being as responsible as possible.
Attorney Peter Danziger.
Assemblyman Anthony Casal the chairman of the Republican Program Committee says he
has some concerns about things that are going on in the speaker's office of the state
assembly.
It seems that in the last few weeks or a couple of months I guess there's been a tremendous
onslaught of printed material coming out of Albany that is being directed all over
New York State either by the males directly to individual homes or to businesses or in
the form of handout material being used primarily at the county fairs and other events over
the summer where people congregate and a lot of this stuff although in the name of the
New York State Assembly I think he's gone a little bit beyond what I would consider
the normal public information governmental activities towards more of a political puffery
at taxpayer expense.
Okay now Tony you're the chairman of the Republican Program Committee it's your job as I understand
it in your conference to get the word out about what Republicans are doing.
Yeah but you're implying that this is a partisan effort as opposed to an assembly effort.
Well it's insensitive now as Republican program chairman and by the way the Democrats have
a program chairman too it's my chapter while in talk about issues and we do travel and
we do travel taxpayer expense we go to the media we go to community leaders and we talk
about issues we talk about legislation we talk about bills before the assembly we talk
about things that ought to be and they do that too and that's perfectly fine but when
you start putting out a tabloid that looks more like a newspaper that has crossword puzzles
in it.
When you start printing a taxpayer expense and handing out board games I mean it gets a
little bit it gets a little bit beyond the normal realm of public information I think it's
much more political puffery and it's something that if I were to do what I would do with
campaign money and call the campaign expense but they're doing it with taxpayer dollars.
What is there a democratic versus a Republican message in the material?
Well the only thing I can say is there's no mention of anybody in the minority for example
they have one box one block that says meet the leaders or meet the key people of the
assembly only democrats when you say leaders of the assembly I would assume that assembly
and rappel you the leader of the assembly they will show for example the majority leader
but not the minority leader they will show the chairman of the ways it means committee
but not the ranking minority member if you're going to show the leaders of the assembly
I think you should show both parties if it's really an assembly piece.
I think that makes a certain sense now as you know you're appearing on the legislative
Gazette radio show and you probably also know I'm the publisher and project director
of something called the legislative Gazette.
We're now calling that the real Gazette I guess.
The real Gazette now the assembly comes along and puts out something called the assembly
Gazette do you have any suspect that maybe they're trying to capitalize on a newspaper that
has been in existence for a while?
I wouldn't be surprised because you know a lot of people not just legislators and staff
people but a lot of people who visit Albany do pick up the legislative Gazette either
while they're in town or take it home with them and they do appreciate the fact that
the Gazette is proud of the only publication that is somewhat dedicated to just what happens
here in the legislature and a lot of people rely on information and a lot of lobbyists
do.
By using the word Gazette I think they're taking advantage and maybe trying to give
the impression that this is an extension of what you and your students have been doing
and I think that's a real shame.
Antonio Rap is stalked in the past about the potential of suing the Democratic Party
in the legislature in court because on the basis that one man won't vote that every
assembly person deserves the same resources as every other assembly person and that not
just the Democrats should be getting all of the spoils and what you've been talking today
about of course is the concept that they are getting more than their fair share of the
spoils and using public money to advance themselves.
I wonder if in fact you think that Rap's suit is feasible.
Well I think as a last resort we should consider the suit.
I would think that common sense might prevail and that we could do something either by changing
the rules of the assembly or like the Congress putting it in statutory form.
You refer to this as spoils but you have to understand that the money is being appropriated
in the state budget for the operation of the legislature.
I think that every single resident of New York state ought to be represented by an individual
who has the same opportunity to provide information to answer inquiries and to represent them.
Now a lot of us do that without having to worry about say extra staff or extra money.
Antonio if I wanted to find out where the money for the newspaper that they're putting out
in the assembly the Democrats are putting out comes from.
Could I do that today?
I would dare say that on your own you could not do so.
Even with your resources as both an educator and a journalist you'd have trouble I think
even in information unless they gave it to you voluntarily.
I don't think you're going to find any single source document to tell you exactly how much
money was spent unless they want to give you that information.
Isn't that what I thought was being passed by the legislature this year in their new freedom
of information or what we call the new auditing bill?
I think this probably will be covered under the auditing bill but it hasn't taken effect yet.
Assemblyman Tony Kassel.
And that's it for this week's legislative Gazette.
The show was produced and edited by Brenda McMahon and she had helped this week from
Maury Small and Bruce Robertson.
We hope you enjoyed the show.
If you have any questions or comments please write to us at WAMC, Fox 13,000 I say thousand
Albany New York 1-2-1-2.
Until next week, I'm Alan Shartock.
The legislative Gazette is a production of WAMC News.
Dr. Alan Shartock is executive producer.
This program is made possible with funds provided by the State University College at Newport.
Statewide satellite distribution of this program was made possible by the Lawrence group,
providing residents throughout New York State with total insurance coverage.
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