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From Northeast Public Radio, this is the Media Project, a weekly discussion about issues
confronting the media.
The last show of the year.
No, say it isn't so, let's just say it isn't so.
You cannot extend the clock, I'm sorry, not here.
You're just appointed so many people when you added over the year.
Period after the last show would have served a lot of people well.
That's it. Welcome to the Media Project. Dr. Alan Shartak is here, the CEO of Northeast Public
Radio, a columnist, commentator, professor, extraordinaire, and Mara Tuss.
And a Tom.
A Tom.
A Mara Tom, yes, actually.
Mara Tom for those people who have heartburn.
Ira Fussfeld, a long-time publisher of the Daily Freedmen in Kingston, New York, sir.
Publisher of Mara Tuss.
Mara Tuss, yes.
Yes, yes.
Or Tom of you have heartburn.
Why are you just winning? I hear that.
And I'm Rex Smith, editor of the Times Union in Albany, still standing
after all these years. Here we are.
You know, it does seem to me that it's a good opportunity for us to just take a look back.
For some people who will hear this show at the very beginning of a new year,
elsewhere in the country where they're hearing this program, but in the capital region of New York,
and the surrounding several states here where this program originates, it probably is good for us
to look back at some of the key events both journalistically and in terms of the news that we cover.
What do you think was the big story of the year?
If you had to say, what's the biggest story of the year?
Ira, you're the guest.
Oh, I think that this is a very interesting year from this standpoint.
I could name three stories off the top of my head that are not only contenders for the
biggest story of this year, but I think these are three stories that are going to be significant
stories in the history of the country.
That's not always so because there are often years where a singular event is a big story.
I think, and you can choose any one of the three you want, but the Edward Snowden story and the
whole implication on spying and privacy in this country and what may happen as a result,
the entire Obamacare issue and the impact of that favorably or not favorably over the long haul.
And then the third, which to be honest, is not as much interest to me because it's not my religion,
but the new Pope and what he brings to the table and how that may change the church view of the
world.
Any of those three stories could be chosen as the top one.
And as I say, I think all three are going to be keepers for generations.
Nevertheless, Rexie, if you took a look at today's tabloids and yesterday's tabloids,
the biggest story of the year might be Elliott Spitz's new girlfriend, which I say God bless him.
Everybody has to move on in life, but she is one very attractive woman.
And the post and the daily news said, well, we'll have some of that.
And they have splashed a lot of pictures of her all over the place.
And people can't seem to get enough.
We had a round table show and we've gotten more male on that than any other thing we have ever
talked about.
Well, you know that really underscores an interesting point.
And that is, every year we have the top 10 local stories.
And we were playing about one story a day.
But we also had a kickoff story in which our wonderful writer Paul Grandeau explored
really a big story to the capital region.
And you know, the stuff that people are talking about generally did not square with what we
considered to be important news stories.
Sure.
The stuff that people talked about, you know, the huge story in the capital region that got a lot
of attention was a mom who hired a stripper for her voice, her son, 16-year-old bowling party,
his birthday party.
Was that bad?
Okay, jump, jump, don't run the old letters.
The video is huge, I should say, on town in times union.com.
And that's the kind of thing that draws people's attention.
Wait a second, I just, because really, I know I must have been in another country well.
This was happening like Greece.
But maybe you could tell me what the video showed.
Well, I, it was, keep it clean.
Alan's getting excited here as we talk about this.
It was actually...
It was all to get excited.
Actually, she was dancing, her, her action took her onto the young man.
Oh, you mean physically?
Yes, yes.
And it was quite the sight.
So it was, she, the mom was ultimately convicted of, I think, a dangering minor.
No.
And yes, I believe so.
In some cultures, this would have been expected.
Well, that's true.
And I think that hers is one.
But...
So the point is that that story is not terribly significant in the greater scheme of things.
Nevertheless, your readers believe it's the most interesting story of it.
Yes, but so then we have to ask, right, Ira?
Why these stories of sexuality and other things
become so much attractive to readers and listeners,
then do the more complicated study like, studies like world finance?
You have to ask why?
You have to ask why.
This is more interesting.
You don't really mean you have to ask why?
No, no, no, no.
I do think it's interesting.
I mean, it is obviously there is the whole, you know, sexual impetus that plays into this.
But also, I think part of it is our ability to grasp, no joke intended, the issue,
you know, what is this mother bringing up?
So what does that say to you then as a frequent critic of the media and the newspapers in particular,
alleging the dumbing down of society, that this is a story that clearly is not the most
significant story in most respects yet.
This is the story that people are interested in and are reading at the end of the most video.
So what is our, what is Rex's role, what is my role or my editor's role in looking at that
story and deciding how we should play that story?
No, precisely right.
I mean, you know, I know where you're going with this.
Obviously, the editor's charge is to sell as many newspapers and to get the stories and to get
as much publicity for the papers possible.
Wow.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I'm not done yet.
I am not done yet.
Well, now we have to classify what papers we're talking about.
Obviously, Rex is a wonderful editor as you have been a wonderful publisher, Ira,
and you have a community sensibility that is reflected in your decisions.
And you do not put, I don't believe the picture of Eliot's new girlfriend on the front page
or the paper because that's who you guys are.
But did you, but did you, no, okay, we all go check it out, notwithstanding our decision not
to play it on the front page.
No, no, no, that's not.
But that's what I'm saying.
There's a difference between Murdo, that can hardly say the word Murdoch's approach at the POST
and yours at the Albany Times Union and iris at the Kingston Freeman.
Obviously yours are community papers and there are gradations of need in terms of what you
expect from your editors.
What do you, but what are the prospects for success for a business that doesn't give its
customers what they want?
If you really say, you know, that the maximum of retail as the customer is always right
and you meet consumer demand in the capitalist society.
So if consumers really want pictures of the young lady who is now said to be Eliot's
picture is squeezed, who are we to say no, we can't do that?
Why shouldn't we, for the one do we not?
Oh, no, I'm not, how can we survive if we don't?
No, I'm not the editor.
So I ask you guys another question.
It's very talented, you know, you ask each other questions.
Okay, so my question to you would be, then why don't you do it?
In other words, I know you're rexie, I know your paper, I know your publisher,
you're all very solid, somber, gravitas driven people.
So you say, well, if we don't, now you're telling me that the people of Albany wouldn't
buy more papers if you had this LIS, Smith's picture on the front with that incredible
stiletto heels and the short address and all the rest that you're telling me.
I miss that picture.
You're telling me that you wouldn't have more readers, which gets right back to your
question.
I know.
And that's where my question is.
There are two answers to that, I think.
First, in the short term, you might get more readers, but the long term, I think people
need some judgment.
A second there is the wait a second.
What does that mean?
Need some judgment for people.
People in the long term will buy a product that they believe gives them the information
they need.
And they need to know some stuff.
They need the combination of what's fun and what's important.
You know, it's, I've quoted, I think on the show before Jerry Nackman, who used to be,
in fact, the editor of the New York Post, 20 years ago, and he was also the news director
of the CBS channel two in New York City.
And he said that the top of the newscast and the front page of the newspaper were the
same.
They had the responsibility to give people either the news that was so important that it
had to be there, even if it wasn't interesting or so interesting that it had to be there,
even if it wasn't important.
And so either way, you get some interesting and some important.
Now, of course, the tabloids you are on the side of.
You know, I've often argued that to great consternation of many, that each nation has what
we could call, if you could establish a national character, your papers each have a character.
They do have a character.
You're not about to start sexing up your first paper in all the way.
But I think it's not just the newspapers character.
I think it's the knowledge of what the market is that you're serving.
The example that I always use, one of the newspapers that my company produces is the
Trentonian, which is a tabloid with Trenton New Jersey.
That paper, for years and years and years until my now to this day, has what they call
the paid six girl.
And it's the scantily clad girl in a big picture on whatever paid six.
They go to some hotel swimming pool.
And actually, you used to be a guy who actually had won the Pulitzer Prize for photography.
Later in his career, he went to the Trentonian and that's what he was doing.
He was shooting these letters.
And so I've always...
And I've always said that if the Daily Freeman, when I was the publisher, decided to borrow
that concept and use the paid six girl in our newspaper, we would sell a lot of newspapers
to people who are currently not buying us.
But I also believed that we would lose many of the readers who do buy us.
So you have to make a determination as to who your readers are.
You really think that people would stop buying your newspaper if you put this LIS.
I think there would be a lot of concern.
The best answer to prove that is when we began publishing a Spanish language paper,
we did a lot of homework about this.
And we were told that part of the Spanish culture, and it's sometimes visible on the Spanish
TV channels, are short skirts and low tops and books of the UXOM women.
And we had sort of that kind of a paid six girl in the Spanish paper and we're received
from the Spanish community because they are the people who read it, all sorts of complaints
about it.
So what does that say?
In our market, which was popular on TV, was not going overwhelmed in print.
You know, I love this business that we all have about, we had all sorts of complaints.
You know, I just wonder, when you add up the all sorts of complaints, how many of really
got 10?
Well, here I'll give you two anecdotes.
Actually, the Trantonian, which he talks about, the Trantonian back when they first started
putting these paid six girls or whatever page they're on in the paper, used to list
on the front page, it would say America's fastest growing daily newspaper.
Well, suddenly it wasn't anymore.
It seems to me that it took a spike when people said, hey, let's take a look at this.
And then it became something of a life.
Yeah.
And the other thing about Trenton, which was unique to many cities now in America, is that
that is a two newspaper city, a relatively small city.
And the other newspaper is a more traditional broadsheet kind of newspaper.
And the Trenton Times.
And the Trentonian was, if you will, the New York Post versus the New York Times.
And so that was the market that they were looking for, the feisty tabloid market, the
fun read market.
I mean, they, one of their editors got in significant trouble some years ago when there
was a very serious fire at a mental institution.
And they ran a headline of the wood, as it says, on the front page, and the headline was
roasted nuts.
Oh, my God.
Now, there is a arrow.
Absolutely.
I absolutely was terrified.
I believe the editor was fired.
On the other hand, there was one of those things that's where do you draw the line?
You want us to be a feisty tabloid?
Man, what kind of crazy headline is that?
Well, well, we're on the subject.
Can I take a little bit of a turn here?
Well, who's to say no?
No.
Father, thank you, Rex.
They've bothered me a lot.
Rosalind, I went to see American hustle last night.
I'm looking forward to seeing it at the New York Times.
Right.
Well, I liked it, and I didn't.
In that, I knew the story.
It's about abscam.
And of course, I worked for a congressman as an intern, and I loved him.
Loved him.
He who went to prison, I believe, for a considerable length of time, for having taken money
a couple years.
For from this fake Arab chic.
Right.
Yep.
Well, I happen to think this episode was one of the most dangerous in American history,
and it has never happened again, in which the FBI set up a two-way mirror, and then
basically had the chic try to corrupt congressmen by offering them money.
In the case of my congressmen, they shoved the, and they shoved this, by the way, in the
movie, they shoved, they kept shoving the briefcase with the money in it towards my congressman,
Frank Thompson Jr., and he wouldn't take it.
But the guy who was portrayed in the movie as a real sleazeback took the money.
It's the guy.
The guy who led Thompson into the room.
Do they use Thompson's name?
No, no, they don't.
They don't.
And they...
So you're telling me he was actually innocent?
You believe he was innocent?
I believe he was innocent.
I truly believe he was innocent, or I think there was a prime and face case that he was
innocent because the way that, at that point, America was in a hanging mood, and what happened
was the sleazeback who brought Thompson into the room, testified he shared the money with
Thompson.
Aha.
And Thompson said it never happened.
And when you watch the movie and when you read the books about this guy, he would say
anything to anybody.
On the other hand, there were others in that...
It caught up...
Who took the money?
Who clearly did.
Yes.
The fellow who put the cash into his suit pockets and then said, does it show?
You know, he patted down his chest as he does it show so that nobody could see.
There was John Jen Redd, a South Carolina, who said...
It wasn't corruption runs like blood in my veins, but it was something like that.
Okay, but Rex, here's the question.
Who pays the FBI?
And by the way, there's a media issue to this.
Who pays the FBI to test each of our public officials by trying to bribe them?
In fact, I have to think that there's an implicit understanding between the Congress and the
FBI that this was never going to happen again, that they weren't going to set these kinds
of things.
Well, since Congress does the appropriation for the FBI, I suspect that the FBI understands
that they're where their bread is buttered.
No, I suppose that's right.
But do you think...
I mean, here's the point.
If you look at this film, you're going to come away with another feeling of disgust about
what happened here.
But when you were reading it in The New York Times, I remember the first day I read it,
you would not have known that the press was looking at scans at this practice of what they
were doing.
Or any of us sure, I think I'm pretty sure, but are any of us sure somebody walked in and
said, here's $100,000.
Nobody will ever know about it.
What you would do?
Who is the FBI to do this?
This is my question.
Well, that's an interesting question.
The media, however, in terms of the coverage...
Coverage and editorial policy.
On day one arrest, it's very hard to get a defendant to speak, A, but B, you generally
assume if the government is presenting a case, you write about what the case is.
Generally, you can't do a story.
Day one saying, well, but Frank Thompson says that he's innocent and he probably is.
If you have FBI announcing indictments of members of Congress, you write that story.
Okay.
I'm willing to live with what you've just said.
And I think you're not a disinterested observer.
You say you love the guy.
I love the guy.
You know?
Well, where'd you go?
So you naturally...
You wouldn't be on the jury, naturally, of course.
No.
No.
No.
In fact, I love them so much that because he really was a true mentor and a really wonderful
guy.
And by the way, anybody who dealt with him knew that and was a great tragedy.
He told me to bring some quarters with me to the federal prison.
I went to visit him down in Lexington because he had heart disease and that was hospital
there.
And he said, bring some quarters because that's what we use in the machines.
So I went to the bank and I got $200 worth of quarters and I put them in my pockets.
As far as you got through the metal detector.
Well, you know, I came into the place and he said, did you bring any quarters?
And I took all these quarters and I saw...
Here's all the drugs.
I thought you were going to ask a different question using the motion picture industry as part
of the broader media is it sounds like what you're saying to me is that they took some
license, first of all, with this story.
Oh, the first thing they show you is a line, Ira, that says some of this actually happened.
Oh, well, that's interesting.
Yeah.
And the other thing is it is being classified in the Golden Globe nominations.
It was a nominated best movie of the year in the comedy and musical category.
It's ridiculous.
It's not a comedy.
Well, at least to me it wasn't a comedy.
Yeah.
So does it play that way?
Well, it's not.
It's not.
Well, people in the audience who are laughing.
But I have to say that to me it was one of the real tragedies in my life to watch this
kind of thing happening.
And I think the movie deserves a lot of credit because when you walk out of there, you feel
what a bunch of sleases these guys were to set this thing up.
And it was, Jay Edgar was still alive at that point.
I think he was.
And fact, because a lot of this FBI business comes out of his time.
Yeah.
In fact, I remember being in Thompson's office one day when he picked up the phone and
he was talking to somebody.
And then he said, where would you can't use on the radio, but it had to do, you know,
it was what we call the F word.
And he said, take that F.J. Edgar Hoover.
As if you're, since I know you're listening to all of our conversation, it doesn't matter.
What really matters is that a lot of people got hurt.
Well, but also a lot of people went to prison who should have.
I mean, to be perfectly fair, you're not on the disincentive servers.
I pointed out.
Crooks went to prison.
You pointed out about three times.
Well, Crooks went to prison.
So you're painting a very sympathetic picture of one particular guy whom you believe was innocent
and was railroaded by the FBI.
Who was the judge who said one innocent person, you know, let's close down the FBI then.
You're right.
So no, I think that this kind of thing is closed down the FBI.
You're right.
You're saying that you are too.
I am being sarcastic because you're being, you're painting a totally sympathetic picture.
And I'm saying, obviously, you couldn't have been a journalist on this.
You couldn't have covered this story.
No, but I had a point that I wanted to make before.
And on this day, on the first day and on that.
But you're still an editorial policy, which can say in your newspaper, The New York Times
or anybody else, right?
This was a bad thing that the FBI was going around testing people's integrity by trying
to bribe them.
You could say that.
You could say that, for example, we have said that with respect to the rest of the Islamic
pizza maker on Central Avenue in Albany, who was sent to prison in an FBI sting quite
similarly.
I would say a man was shown a fake weapon, a fake grenade launcher by an FBI informant.
They want to buy it.
Who was set up and he was told, please be the middleman in this investment scheme.
And there are many people who believe that that was an unfair conviction, subsequently,
the same snitch, the same guy who was working off, as they say, was trying to get out of
an arrest of his own, testified in a similar case down in, I believe, in Newberg.
So this kind of thing does go on.
But the people involved may or may not have been guilty.
What's the end of the story?
In other words, as he goes to prison, he comes out here, has a heart of tiny touch.
But was there subsequent media follow-up coverage to his arrest that looked into the story?
I didn't see, well, look, I didn't see everything they got written, but I have to say this to
you, Ira, I did not personally.
And I read a lot of newspapers every day, see anything that approach what I would consider
to be the appropriate caution.
I'm not saying to Rex, he's not right.
I'm not saying that we don't have to do this.
But let's say you tested all of us.
Actually, in life, went through an integrity test, either sexual integrity or monetary integrity.
What percentage of us would come out as clean as could be?
But you're not saying, therefore, that we should, well, you are saying that there shouldn't
be such a test, that we shouldn't put members of Congress to the test and say, okay, offer
them a bribe and see if they take it, see how honest they are.
I don't know, but that's a good one.
Also the police departments offer them a bribe and see how it happens.
Journalists say, you know how closely do you follow the rules of journalism with respect
to independence and integrity?
Yep.
Good questions.
Good questions all, but the question is, does that mean that, I don't know, it just seems
to me that you're making a moral judgment that law enforcement shouldn't try to fix it
out.
Rex, you never happened before that I know of with Congress.
And it hasn't happened since that time.
That's a long time now.
With members of Congress.
Interesting.
Well, in the New York State legislature, of course, there was a member who was wired, who
talked to members by the US Attorney, Pete Barara.
And so that was a case that unfolded in one of the top stories of 2013 in New York City.
It was.
And we had a Senator Huntly, shall we only?
Yep.
Bring people into our house because you allegedly had a bad leg.
Whether or not, you know, they admitted to what they had done as opposed to what they
could do is another whole story.
Well, I think that the people who listened to this program will all have some tremendous
ideas.
Well, it brings us sort of back to where I started with the NSA story and Snowden being
one of the biggest stories of the year in America.
And when that story first broke, there was a lot of criticism of Snowden.
There is still some.
But I think it's lessened as more and more information has come out.
And the debate is on again in this country as to how much we want, if at all, our government
to be snooping.
So which is why the Washington Post and the Guardian in England were both tremendously courageous
I thought in printing this stuff because I've often said you can't have a democracy
unless people know what's going on.
And Snowden certainly showed us a lot that we didn't know was going on.
Absolutely.
Well, with that, we're going to have to say that.
I agree, by the way, that was I think that was the top story of the year with all the
outfall.
And I would know top story in general.
I think it's the biggest story of the year globally.
What the NSA spying and the kind of control over our lives and all seeing eye that George
R. Willen visions.
That's very courageous of you, Rex.
Well, amazing thing.
So there you go.
We're done.
This program of the year.
Oh, no, say it.
This show should be now.
See you next week.
See you next week.
