This is the Environment Show. It's about our stewardship of the Earth and the beauty
and mystery of life in all its forms. The Environment Show's a national production
made possible by the W. Alton Jones Foundation, the Packard Foundation, the Turner Foundation,
the JM Kaplan Fund and Heming's Motor News, the Bible of the Collector Carhabi, 1-800-CAR-HRE.
Your host is Peter Burley.
Coming up on this week's Environment Show, a report from Washington, one powerful U.S.
Senator wants to put the nation's nuclear waste in Nevada, regardless of whether people
there want it or not. Should environmentalists be vegetarians, large scale production of meat
is a huge industry, consuming resources and polluting waterways, but it can also be part
of a sustainable system. We'll talk green about it. A portrait of lava falls on the
Colorado River as we shoot the rapids. And in the Earth calendar, the Caribbean is a
wash and seaweed sex. These stories are more coming up on this week's Environment Show.
The powerful chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Republican
Frank Murkowski from Alaska, has outlined his priorities for the coming year. First
son is agenda is the contentious issue of storing our nation's nuclear waste. Congress
has been struggling with this issue for years, but this is the first time legislation may
actually get passed. Two House members say they'll introduce a bill in early April that
calls for the construction of a temporary nuclear waste storage facility in Nevada. The
interim side would be used while Congress decides whether to build a permanent storage
facility in Nevada's Yucca Mountain. Senator Murkowski is sponsoring similar legislation
in the Senate. Environment Show reported Nancy Marshall recently set down with the senator
to get his views on the nuclear waste dilemma and other environmental issues. She filed
this report from Washington. The plan to locate the nation's nuclear waste at Nevada's Yucca
Mountain has been criticized by a wide range of forces. They say the science supporting
the idea is incomplete and the process of determining Yucca's suitability has been
rushed. Senator Frank Murkowski, a Republican from Alaska, is brutally frank in responding
to those protests and others from environmentalists and the Nevada congressional delegation.
When you're all through with all the smoking mirrors, the bottom line is nobody wants
a stuff. Okay, you can't throw it up in the air, it's going to come down somewhere.
And I'm sensitive to the Nevada delegation and their objection to it, but still it's
got to go somewhere. Why not put it in an area that's already basically so polluted by
nuclear testing that it'll never be used for anything else?
Murkowski says that's the reasoning behind the idea for an interim storage facility in
a part of Nevada that's been used for testing nuclear devices for years. The facility is
intended to function temporarily while Yucca Mountain is completed. Murkowski's energy
and natural resources committee has already passed legislation authorizing the temporary
site. Senate Majority Leader Trent Laught has said he wants to bring the measure before
the full Senate for a vote soon. The bill is scheduled to be introduced in the House
April 8th. But the legislation faces an uphill battle in both houses. President Clinton
has promised to veto it and so far the Senate is 10 shy of the votes needed to override
a veto. But Murkowski is determined to see the bill become law. He says the nation's
nuclear power plants are running out of space to store their nuclear waste and it's unfair
to delay the process. The federal government entered into a contractual commitment many
years ago to take this fuel by the year 1998. The ratepayers have contributed to the
federal government about $12 billion. 1998 is right around the corner of the federal government
has no capacity to take this waste. Murkowski is a bit more flexible on other issues his
committee is dealing with during this session of Congress. He says he is willing to consider
reform of the 1872 Mining Act. President Clinton wants to increase the royalties companies
pay for extracting oil, coal, minerals and other natural resources out of land owned
by the federal government. Murkowski says he might be open to an increase in royalties
but stresses that not all extraction industries should be treated the same.
Everybody says well minerals are just like oil, gas, coal where they come out of the ground
and they have an immediate value. You can take a cup of oil and you can burn it, sell it,
whatever. You can take a piece of coal, you can burn it, gas or you enter the gas and
that's bad. But you take a piece of ore and you can use it as a door stop. It has absolutely
no value until it's refined. Murkowski won't say what kind of an increase in royalty fees
he would support but stresses he is open to compromise with the White House.
Murkowski is less flexible when asked about legislation that would allow some private
sponsorship for national parks. The measure failed last year amid accusations that corporations
would have been allowed to commercialize the parks. Murkowski accuses President Clinton
of proposing a corporate sponsorship program which Murkowski supported then backing away
from it when it was criticized. He says Clinton left him hanging.
Murkowski Well that's obvious but I'm not picking a fight because we're going to try this
process again and I met with the Secretary of the Interior and we've had discussions with
various members and they admit that okay we've got to come up with something here. I
simply say until somebody comes up with a better idea how we're going to pick up this funding,
then I'm going with our program again which was to provide and we were working through the National
Park Foundation to craft legislation again to get the administration on board and put them
in a position if they don't want to support okay come up with an idea that we'll meet the exposure
and the responsibility we have. And then there are the issues Murkowski won't talk about. He refused
to answer questions about the status of Alaska's Arctic Wildlife Refuge. Murkowski supports oil
companies in their efforts to start drilling on the refuge. Something environmentalists are
vehemently opposed to nor would Murkowski discuss his approval of continued logging in Alaska's
Tongas Forest or his support for the sale of Alaskan oil in other countries. Environmentalists
will have to wait until Murkowski introduces legislation to know what his plan of action is on
these issues. For the Environment Show I'm Nancy Marshall in Washington.
We're talking green and I'm your host Peter Burley. Today we're talking about vegetarianism
and the environment. We want to hear from you. Our number is 18849 green. My guest is
her Howard Lyman. He's a fourth-generation cattle rancher turned strict vegetarian and director
of the Humane Society's Eating with Conscience campaign. He's in California. Also with us is Dr.
Michael Clapper, a physician and author who works to educate health professionals about the key
role foods play in enhancing health. He's committed to reducing diet related environmental degradation
and he's based in Hawaii. And with us also is Dennis Avery. He's from the Center for Global Food
Issues. That's an organization which follows changes taking place in the world's ability to feed
itself. He analyzes trends in food demand, agricultural productivity and global farm competition.
He's based in Virginia. Welcome gentlemen and Howard let me start with you. From your perspective
is it impossible for me to be an environmentalist because I eat meat? Well absolutely not. I think
that there will always be meat eaters in the world. I think the question that we're looking at
is will the predominant diet in the world be meat or not? The question that we have out there
right now is can we afford a meat-based diet for every calorie of meat that's being produced today
in the factory feed lots in America today? It's estimated about 70 calories of energy are necessary
to produce a calorie of meat. I think it is obvious that we are spending our children's
inheritance in their future if we continue on a meat-based diet but if we look at family farmers
utilizing grass I think that there will always be a place for meat in the diet but at a much
reduced level. Now Dr. Clapper the argument as I take it is that if we increase our vegetable intake
we're not only improving the environment but we're also improving our health. And yet in the
United States vegetables are produced with tremendous amounts of pesticides and herbicides so
doesn't that take away from some of the environmental benefit of vegetarianism as we hear it
espoused? Well I certainly am sure your concerns it's been said that we're going to be known as the
society they grew our food with poisons and I'm all for growing our fruits and vegetables without
the poisonous herbicides and pesticides but when it comes to the overall degradation of the
environment the top-flaw erosion the water pollution the water consumption deforestation
there's no question at large-scale animal agriculture is the driving destructive force and
switching to more plant-based foods will not only make the people healthier it will certainly
make the environment more stable as well. Now Dennis Dennis every you follow these things
we've seen societies like China which were real told that there's a tremendous increase in demand
for beef and as a result of that the environment is going to get even worse than it is now.
Is that where we're going as we look at the world in general? Well I sympathize with the vegetarian
desire to be part of environmental improvement and certainly vegetarians tread more lightly on the
land than do people who eat lots of meat milk and eggs. The problem is that the world is moving
more rapidly toward more high quality protein than ever before in history and you mentioned China
their meat consumption increased by 5 million tons last year alone and this is happening all over
Asia it's happening to happen all over Latin America Europe is already heavily into livestock-based
diets and at this point unless there is some dramatic new effort by the vegetarian movement
then vegetarianism instead of being part of the solution is going to be part of the problem.
But let me ask you hard you are an advocate I guess of the notion that we really have to cut down on our
on our consumption of meat in order to save the planet is that really doable?
To people are going to people who eat meat and I'm one of them really going to say we're going to
give this up in order to save the world. I wouldn't say that we're going to turn everybody into a flaming
vegan but I will tell you this if we look at the consumption of red meat from 1976 till today
we've gone from 93 pounds to 63 pounds we have increased fish and chicken but what we're seeing now
is people are starting to get the inkling out there of what's going on. If we take the United
States number one killer that's out there today is heart disease contributing factors saturated fat
and cholesterol all cholesterol comes from animal products the majority of saturated fat in our
American diet animal products people are getting it. All right well let's go to the phones and
we have a call from Montana Bob you're talking green in the environment show. Hi Peter I'm a
rancher from Montana like thousands of my peers across the country I cure deeply for at the
condition of our land and then listen to our our speakers Dr. Clapper Mr. Lemon I object some
what I guess when they refer to the graph land you know out here not only was our weft one on a
high protein red meat diet rich in vitamins and minerals but also most of America also here in
Montana as I suppose rest of America I look at it as a win-win situation out here we use our livestock
to manage our grasslands and at the same time enhancing our natural resources I guess in our
ranch by developing water and some of our uplands and our pasture rotation systems we have an
enhanced our riparian areas and at the same time we have increased our wildlife numbers we've
increased the numbers of our deer and our elk and our turkeys and beavers and grouts and all the
other small-life small wildlife greatly by managing our resource you know Bob let me turn this
around for a moment yes the world becomes vegetarian and if this country gets out of the meat eating
business what happens to your ranch I don't think we're ever going to go out of business we meet as
a luxury item so to speak I guess we're finding more and more people be manning a higher
higher quality beef and and us as ranchers we're producing that meat is now leaner than it ever
has been and probably safer than it ever has been in this entire history okay well thanks for your
common and call and let me ask you doctor clapper what I think the caller is saying is that we can
enjoy the meat diet and still be healthy is he right about that well there's no question when
you look around the world as countries to add more and more meat to the diet the same health
trends develop they get fatter their cholesterol levels go up their arteries clogged a heart attack
rate goes up the cancer rate goes up just because people like to eat more meat it doesn't mean
that it's healthy you can get a taste we're liking alcohol for cigarettes so that's that's human
nature but it doesn't mean that it's healthy clearly the trends medical studies show that the less
meat we eat the more plant-based foods we eat the healthier we're going to be the Chinese and
all those folks eat more and more meat are going to repeat the same western health as
actors that we've seen in the states I think a plant-based diet is definitely the healthier diet
for the future okay well let's take another call this time we'll go to California and speak with
Pamela Pamela you're on the environment show hi well um I work with a bakery company here in L.A.
that says totally vegetarian actually vegan baked goods and the increase in our business has
been astronomical and I want to say that I see a huge trend toward people wanting vegetarian
food and it's not only people who call themselves or are vegetarian or vegans it is people want to
reduce their me-consumption and their animal product consumption for health reasons for you know
if they want to keep their cholesterol down their fat content down in fact I'm friends with companies
that are doing the similar products for instance the Garden Burger Company they have increased
production level 100 percent per year for the past three years you're saying this stuff is
good business is that basically it and the demand is there people are realizing that it's smart
to if not full-time at least part-time eats plant-based foods for their health for the environment
and for ethical reasons okay well thanks for your comment and I just want to say that with
handover look there's been a concerted effort to encourage meat eating for everything from the
USDA government policies the very powerful meat industry the meat lobby everything has been done
to promote that and get a meat consumption and a noticeable anti-vegetarian tone from everything
from the media to government policies and to blame the vegetarians as being ineffective I think
is really unfair you know okay let me let me let me tell you what I'm saying is that there is a very
fundamental human hunger for high quality protein there's not even any advertising in China
and yet their meat consumption is increasing 10 percent a year well let me ask you Dennis
figure out consumption so they're alcohol all right hold on doesn't mean it's done it down to
savory or what I want to ask a question of you what you're saying is that this trend toward
vegetarianism simply doesn't happen how does one feed the globe given a doubling of our
world population in the next 50 years or so under the existing scheme of things based on what
the vegetarian focus saying about the need for so much more grain to produce a pound of meat than
if you simply eat the grain directly we've been far more successful at raising the yields on our
crops and livestock and increasing the productivity of the farms then we have been creating vegetarians
and here we have the vegetarians telling us to go to low yield organic farming and that aggravates
the problem it's foolish economics and and foolish ecology and we are spending our top soil and
our watered for it for an orgy of meat eating and it's going to time is running out on us and we
cannot sustain this is simply non sustainable what the record down to a stocker clapper I don't
tell you that we're doing better on soil erosion than we've ever done it's still pouring
well pouring into the rivers far let me interrupt you both for a moment our farm is in New England
and we grow sheep now we grow sheep on land that would be totally unsuitable for grains in places where
you don't have the environmental degradation that is or the waste that occurs when you feed grain
at a high ratio your sense is that even in those places it's better to put the land into some
other use than putting it into growing protein absolutely it was somehow we think that just because
the land isn't producing meat protein it's of no value but you could use that land to grow forest
to grow fiber crops to grow bio-math there's so much else you could do with that land we've got to
get out of this old old uh... thought pattern okay well we've been discussing vegetarianism and
the environment and my guests have been Howard Lyman from the humane society doctor Michael
Clapper a physician based in Hawaii and Dennis Avery from the center of global food issues
we want to hear from you our number is 1-88-49 green you're talking green on the environment
and I'm your host Peter Burley
we all have places which are special to us for some of their city streets for others
they're deep in the wilderness Roderick Nash is a professor of history and environmental studies
at the University of California in Santa Barbara he's a descendant of the legendary river explorer
Simon Roderick Frazier and his road more than 40,000 river miles including over 50% of the Colorado
River through the Grand Canyon he presents a portrait of lava falls on the Colorado River found in
his book The Big Drops 10 legendary rapids of the American West published by Johnson Books
you never really finish running lava falls asked on the river the night before lava if he was ready
for the rapid one Grand Canyon Boltman said he hopes so because he had run at 400 times that winter
driving to work every morning and before sleeping every night
few rapids in the world grip the mind that way few have the ability to condense a year a lifetime
on moving water into 45 pounding seconds lava falls does it is an indisputed big drop
season after season high water and low kayaks to pontoons lava has a strong claim to being the
most challenging stretch of white water in the American West lava waits at mile 179.2 about two
thirds of the way through the Grand Canyon a prehistoric lava dam once blocked the Colorado here
but the modern rapid is as much a product of side canyon debris flow the falls drop 37 feet in a few
hundred yards this means that at river level back in your boat after scouting all you see is a
horizontal line the distant canyon wall an occasional burst of spray jetting up in between the
acceleration on the rapids tongue is astonishing if you are set up in the wrong place there is no
time for correction even on a good run you claw up 15 to 20 foot standing waves passengers keep
low profiles and grip the ropes or gunnels boltman with only ores in their hands are regularly
washed into the seething river it is hard to remember much about the end of a run of lava falls
there are the diminishing tail waves the overpowering sense of relief the hugs and shouts
in the exultation of the moment it is tempting to think that you have conquered the rapid old hands
no better you never really triumph over natural forces the river in this case just let you through
as you sit on the beach river right below lava you look back upstream at the moving white staircase
and think gratefully one more time professor Roderick Nash reading from his book the big drops
10 legendary rapids of the American West published by Johnson Books stay tuned the earth calendar is next
the
at this moment in the Caribbean ocean just off the coast of Panama some forms of algae or seaweed
are engaged in process of reproduction about the only way to describe it is seaweed sex the seawater
is become clear and the sun is hot the plants vary in size some look like pea size bulbs on runners
others are stock like still others are seafans most are various shades of green
Kenneth Clifton speaks to us from the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama
where he's with the University of California Santa Cruz Research Affiliate two years ago
he discovered the phenomenon which occurs at this time of year while swimming around a coral reef
at 5.30 in the morning 5.30 or 6 o'clock in the morning you go out on the reef
and all of a sudden you'll notice the water taking on sort of a greenish cast and the
visibility starting to plummet and if you swim upstream of these green clouds you'll find that
hundreds or sometimes thousands of green algae are releasing their eggs and sperm basically into
the water column and producing these copious clouds of gunk that then sort of drift around for
about 15 or 20 minutes and then that's all over and gone and then maybe another 20 minutes later
another species may go off or several species may go off at the same time Clifton says these
seaweeds are integral to the reef community and while they are plants they have sexual
characteristics that resemble animals they are definitely plants that but they act very much
like animals in the in their sexual reproduction what they're doing is basically on a very synchronous
schedule suddenly within seconds of each other all over the reef releasing their gametes
up into the water column and this is something that that corals and urchins and things like that do
and nobody really suspected that any group of plants were doing things like this
Clifton marvels at how organized and tight the timing of the whole process is which results in the
end of the life of the plant when they're doing this they're migrating their entire cell
contents from the base and the body of the plant to these specialized structures that develop
on the outside of the plant and it's from these that the gametes are released and as soon as
the gametes are released in this 10 or 15 minute pulse of reproduction the plant's dead and so
I don't know if I've gotten a sense to you across of just how amazingly
sort of organized and tight this timing is from this plant just sitting there on the reef doing
the same thing it's been doing day after day after day and suddenly it and a number of others
on the reef suddenly make this transition and 36 hours later they're all dead but they've
all reproduced. Clifton's research tells us that even if ecological disaster brings extinction to
both birds and bees parents will still be able to use examples in nature to teach their children
the facts of life instead of birds and bees they can talk about seaweed. Thanks for listening this
is the Environment Show and I'm Peter Burley.
you
This is the Environment Show and I'm Peter Burley.
Still ahead.
If you ever wondered where your food comes from,
community supported agriculture teams farmers with customers.
The result is fresh organic food and it's a good deal for everyone.
So you're a vegetarian, your survival may be dependent on the cow after all.
That rock hard tomato in your supermarket isn't your only option.
An organization in Iowa grows 4,000 tomatoes.
They travel the world to collect seeds and preserve their land crops.
We go to Laos and the Ho Chi Minh Trail to investigate a power dam under construction
on a tributary to the Mekong River.
And composer Alan Copeland celebrates the Appalachian Spring.
These stories still ahead on the Environment Show.
Food is the most important product we take from the environment.
Vegetables meet in dairy products or produce from the earth's soil, air and water.
So keeping the environment healthy goes hand in hand with good food.
One of the ways to keep the environment in good shape is through the choices each of us make
when we buy our food.
Today a growing number of people are buying food from local farms.
The consumer gets inexpensive fresh food direct from the farmer and farmers get money to
stay in business.
The movement is called community supported agriculture.
The Environment Show producer Thomas Lally visited one of these farms and has this report.
Americans want fresh food.
Gone are the days when grocery stores specialized in white bread and canned vegetables.
Today for health and environmental reasons people are seeking out fresh and often organic
food from local farms.
And from this desire community supported farms or CSAs have emerged.
Well we wanted a closer connection from the farm and consumers.
We felt that we tried to forge a closer connection.
And the CSA does that.
It's a direct link between the consumers and the producers.
Tom Myers is the garden manager at Hawthorne Valley Farm in Gent, New York.
The farm sells shares to about 200 families.
They pay $450 in the spring and get a weekly allotment of the harvest of vegetables.
Members pick their food up from a central location.
The idea is to supply local organic produce to members while keeping the farm in business.
That's especially important to farms like Hawthorne Valley.
It lies in a quiet stretch of rolling hills in far Eastern New York.
Farms have a tough time surviving in these kinds of places where scenic land is sought after
and expensive.
In the main barn at Hawthorne Valley, 60 cows are busy feeding.
They're lined up in two rows facing away from each other and in between them stands Tom
Myers.
He says Hawthorne Valley gives people a connection between their dinner table and the farm.
A big factor right now for consumers is that they seem to want to know where the food's
coming from and they want to make a connection with the place and also with the people that
are growing their food.
So a CSA affords them that opportunity.
Whereas just buying organic produce in a store, they really have no connection.
They don't know where that food's coming from.
They know it may be organic, but they don't have a real connection.
I think the word, the CSA, they started in Japan and the translation for CSA over there
is farming with a face.
And that's basically what the CSA is all about.
Once that relationship is formed, members are encouraged to visit the farm whenever they
want.
Stefan Snyder is the farm manager here.
He says members can tour the fields, check out the dairy where yogurt and cheese is made
or come here to the cow barn or most of the farm's fertilizer is produced.
We have a few formal days each year that we try to invite members as a group.
But I think this farm is always open for visitors and I would encourage every member to come
visit anytime they want to.
I mean that's really the whole idea that it's all is only going to work if there's a
certain amount of human relationship developed and you can only do that if you meet each
other.
So definitely, yes, the ship visit every all during the season because it's different depending
you know, spring, summer, winter.
Snyder says Hawthorn Valley has 12 acres of vegetables.
It also sells dairy products and bread made on the farm.
He says if members are willing to be a bit flexible, they can get much of their food from
the farm.
But that means dealing with the fluctuations of nature.
Last year, Hawthorn Valley had a bumper crop of winter squash.
While they traded some of it for beets and carrots with another farm, members still got
a lot of squash.
I mean, I think in terms of vegetable needs, we can supply, I would say a large majority,
especially if people are willing to eat according to the season.
If they're willing to eat root crops more during the winter and they don't necessarily want
to have tomato salad or melons every day in December, I think we can on the vegetable
side, we can provide quite a bit because you know, there's storage crops that would last
or at least into March and then maybe there would be a short window where there wouldn't
be much but then we start up again by the end of May.
But I think from that point of view, we can supply quite a bit.
But that's what being part of a CSA is all about.
It's not like buying food from a supermarket because members essentially buy a percentage
of the harvest, they share in the benefits as well as the risks with the farmer.
For instance, if there's a drought, members get less food.
But the CSA movement is only about five to ten years old in this country and observers
say it's flexible enough to work in any region of the country or even the world.
Modern manager Tom Myers says the CSA movement is expanding to appeal to a broader audience.
But I think what it will take is overcoming some of the drawbacks to CSA such as convenience,
variety.
Those are the two big things.
You come on a certain specified time to a certain specified place to pick up your
produce for the week and you get what's harvested and the challenge is going to be to broaden
the varieties and the choices and also the times of distribution.
In other words, we're going to have to become more like a store, which there's talk in
those directions yet.
I think it's just beginning now.
Myers says CSA's are one way farms here in the Northeast and elsewhere can survive.
He says there's no way their corn, for instance, can compete on the wholesale market with corn
from the Midwest.
So what keeps Hawthorne Valley afloat and the land and production is the added value
to their products which the members provide.
CSA's don't sell to middlemen because they sell directly to consumers.
This way farmers get more money than they would if they had sold it on the wholesale market
and consumers get a good product that would likely have been trucked in hundreds or thousands
of miles if the CSA didn't exist.
Lauren Bradford is the farm manager at Hawthorne Valley.
The value adding is the way that small farmers are going to stay in business because the wholesale
market is not set up for a small scale.
And is CSA version of value adding?
Oh, definitely, because you're doing the chain.
You're not being a wholesaler.
You're getting directly to the consumer.
So you're dealing with each step in the chain.
Today's CSA's are found mostly on the east and west coast and in Wisconsin.
But the movement is spreading.
If you'd like more information call the Biodynamics Association at 1-800-516-7797.
That's 1-800-516-7797.
Contact Community Supported Agriculture of North America at csana at bcn.net.
On the worldwide web search under Community Supported Agriculture.
Before the environment show, I'm Thomas Lally.
Most debates between vegetarians and people who eat meat, including the one aired earlier
on this program, wind up with a discussion of the cow.
For the vegetarian, the bovine is an inefficient beast which eats grain that could better be
fed to humans.
She causes people to destroy rainforests for pasture and then destroys grasslands through
over grazing.
The human carnivores savers beef and argues that properly manage the cow can make edible
meat from grass that humans can't eat.
It may well be, however, that the vegetarian needs the cow for reasons that have nothing
to do with hamburger or steak.
We examine an attribute of the cow which may ensure that even vegetarians can't do without
her.
Garden manager Tom Myers from Hawthorne Valley Farm in Gent, New York explains why he
has 60 cows helping him grow vegetables.
Well from a bio-dinnery point of view, the cow produces the best potential fertilizer.
The manure from the cow produces the best compost.
So the cow is essential in a bio-dinnery farm.
We have about 60 cows here and that makes about the amount of compost that we need to do
both the vegetables and the field crops.
Our manager, Stefan Snyder, says the productive capacity that cow is not always understood
by customers and visitors to the farm.
The question about the animal I think is extremely interesting because we run into it all the
time with the apprentices for example, you know, that come here and sort of have the question
about the animals and with customers, with consumers.
And I think it's a very hard question but one little example is for example, last year
we had a person who was very strictly vegetarian and after being on the farm for a while and she
could see how everything fits together.
She loosened up her attitude and actually I think so.
That's not lower neither and I think she started being more flak and did she even eat meat
jolly?
I think she ate.
I think she was even willing to eat some meat.
So I think what's happened today is people are so disconnected from their food, comes from
that they have really, you know, you can't blame them for that.
They have no concept of perception of what's needed.
So if you want to look at sustainable food production, it's not for me, it's not thinkable
without animals.
And since the cow is, you know, even a very special animal being a ruminant, there's
no other animal out there that we can use agriculturally and that can use all that grass that's
out there.
You know, the cow can use grass digest it and then do all kinds of things with it.
The least of it not being is the manure, you know, that's really what we after.
They've been long, long range experiments done in Britain for example where they've compared
plots, what have used cow manure compost, other compost and it's I think proven beyond
doubt that the cow manure is the most balanced base and it actually fits as a picture, you
know, it's the most balanced manure to grow plants.
So it's like they're almost made for each other.
So from that point of view, you know, I think it's for me, it's really the only option.
And so even in this day of heightened rhetoric from the advertising community, the media
and politicians, there is no substitute for the genuine product.
It's the cow that produces the real thing.
Vegetarians take note.
In many cultures, seeds for crops or family treasures passed from generation to generation.
But as modern agriculture spreads to the far reaches of the earth, many of these crops
are disappearing.
Yet the heirloom varieties are critical for maintaining genetic diversity.
Time and time again, we've learned that reliance on only a few varieties of crops leaves
as vulnerable to catastrophic blates and infestations.
An organization called Seedsabers based in Decora, Iowa maintains heirloom plant varieties
using the army of backyard gardeners around the world.
Each of producer Thomas Lally spoke with Kent Wheely.
He's the executive director of Seedsabers.
And he talked about his organization's mission and their recent efforts to preserve seeds
from Eastern Europe.
We have also put together a collection of seeds that is being maintained or permanently
maintained at our headquarters, which is 178-acre farm here in northeast Iowa.
And that collection now numbers about 18,000 varieties of rare vegetables and fruits.
And the collections have really gotten huge.
I mean, we're maintaining a collection of 4,000 different tomatoes.
And it was getting to the point where everything that was coming into our collections we had
already seen.
But within the last few years, since 1991, I've been doing a lot of work in Eastern Europe
and the former Soviet Union.
And we've been funding collecting expeditions over there.
And when that material started flowing into our collections, it is different than anything
that we have ever seen.
I mean, we're seeing black tomatoes from Russia.
We're seeing tomatoes that have foliage like a carrot top, just things that are just unbelievable
to us.
Seedsabers has been really highly successful at collecting North American heirlooms.
But there are regions in the world that are much richer genetically when you get into
areas of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, especially really rugged areas where
the farms could never be collectivized.
Traditional agriculture goes all the way back to the beginning with all the seeds still
produced by gardeners and farmers.
And in areas over there that are sort of wet, warm mountain regions, especially the
cocauses and the Transylvanian Alps in different areas like that.
The genetic diversity in those areas is just dazzling.
But what's happening right now is the Western agricultural technology is flooding into these
areas very rapidly, along with improved, if you will, American and Japanese and Dutch
seeds.
And the genetic richness in those areas is probably going to be lost within about 10 years.
And as far as what is the impetus behind saving these varieties?
I mean, saving those varieties?
Yeah, I mean, you know, what, you know, and I'm asking this question, you know, kind of
knowing the response.
But what is the need to keep these?
I mean, if these seeds are the modern seeds, so-called modern seeds are so-called improved,
then then, you know, in some people's minds they'll think, well, you know, of course we
should replace these seeds.
These are relics from the past and, you know, why do we need to keep them around other than,
you know, someone's, you know, back project in their backyard?
Yeah.
All of our major crops are constantly being challenged by pest and diseases.
And you need to think of it as a genetic race, if you would, with the crops on the, I mean,
with the food crops on the one hand and the diseases and the pests on the other.
And scientists need these older or these relic crops to breed increased disease resistances
in to modern crops.
And without those infusions of genetic diversity, food production worldwide is at risk.
And this is all of the genetic material that we're ever going to have to accomplish,
I mean, adding those types of resistances.
And what we're seeing right now is that on every hand, it's, I mean, this breeding material
is dying out of an incredibly rapid rate.
Now, of course, the geneticists, or at least the gene jockies, the so-called gene jockies,
will say, you know, that they can handle anything, really, that comes down the pike.
You know, they will be able to create the seeds or plants that have resistances and that
can take on the attributes that, you know, many of the attributes that are found in these
plants.
Well, I've certainly heard all of those arguments.
And the thing that frightens me, I guess, is that the gene jockies, if you will, really
believe that.
I mean, I've heard the argument made that if the great barrier reef were completely destroyed,
we now have the technology to recreate it.
And that is so patent-lipsured.
I mean, when you think of the cost of these techniques, much less the time that it would
take and our incomplete knowledge of what was there in the first place, I mean, it's
absolutely absurd.
We reassemble, but we don't create.
And even to reassemble, you have to have the basic building blocks.
And all of it exists.
I mean, all that we have to do is just keep it alive right now.
Kent Whealey is the executive director of seed savers based in Decora, Iowa.
You can reach him by phone at 319-382-5990.
That's 319-382-5990.
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We continue our look at biodiversity around the world in another conversation with Lee
Talbot, senior professor in the program of Environmental Science and Public Policy at
George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia.
This time, he reports on his recent trip to Laos, where he inspected a dam project
of the Nam Tong River, which is a tributary to the Mekong.
He was there as an environmental consultant to the World Bank, which is financing the
dam for private consortium.
We've heard Lee Talbot previously in the Environment Show with reports from China and
Bhutan.
Some of us had a chance to see that country 30 years ago, since the area you described
was also traversed by the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
What does it look like today?
The plateau itself has been considerably affected, modified by human activity.
Part of it had to do with what you're describing, because when you fly over or even walk over
it, you still see a lot of bomb craters.
Indeed, in virtually every one of the villages I visited, the casings of 500 pound bombs
were being used either to help hold up the houses as stilt or split open and being used
as essentially flower boxes or vegetable gardens raised out of the way of the chickens,
which pick and eat everything on the ground.
I like the idea that maybe after the bloodshed, why flower boxes are the fruits of war, but
is this area pretty heavily wooded still or not?
The area that's going to be inundated is no longer heavily wooded.
When I was in Laos I in 1955, I never got to this area because it was regarded as being
far too isolated.
It was spoken out with a bit of awe by the French then and the Laotians.
It had been a royal hunting ground and was famous for the elephant, gower, another big
game that was on it.
However now, virtually the whole plateau has been very modified.
There's much of it has been cut for shifting cultivation, a little bit of permanent cultivation.
Their village is scattered throughout and the area has been and is being logged extensively
partly as a salvage logging to get the, particularly the pine trees out before the area is inundated.
It's also been very, very heavily hunted so that hearing birds is a rare thing.
We traveled around by dug out canoe quite a bit, height quite a bit, flew over it by helicopter
and drove all over by four-wheel drive vehicle.
We had a chance to have a very good look at the place.
It's very different now I believe than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Tellbeth says while the dam will flood 45 square kilometers of the plateau, the plan
is to protect 4,000 square kilometers of forested land above it in the Enemite Mountains,
an area which he says is unique.
It has particular value because this is the area where in the past four years, four new
species of big-ish mammal have been found along with at least one bird.
This is the area where four years ago a new genus of ox was found.
This is something wholly new to science and the idea of finding a new genus is mind-blowing
from a scientific point of view.
A new species of barking deer was found there.
I actually saw some of them.
The fresh skulls of a thing called a woity hog were found last year, I believe, in one
of the villages and that animal has been thought to be extinct for decades.
And another hair has been tentatively identified which was thought to be extinct also.
It was lead Talbot of George Mason University, speaking with us about his recent inspection
trip for the World Bank to the non-tune dam construction project just off the Ho Chi Minh
Trail in Laos.
It's springtime.
Where I live, ice and snow still clings to the land, but we hope it will melt soon and
the snow drops in Fricythia will appear.
Already we're seeing finches of blue birds, geese were high in the sky moving north a
couple of weeks ago.
In 1938 the American composer Aaron Copeland wrote this piece, Appalachian Spring, for
a ballet by Catherine Graham, the title comes from a poem by Hart Crane which celebrates
the change in seasons.
This part of Appalachian Spring is called Simple Gifts, named after the shaker folk song
from which it was adapted.
Simple Gifts, from Aaron Copeland's 1938 composition, Appalachian Spring.
Thanks for being with us on this week's Environment Show.
I'm Peter Burling.
For cassette copy of the program, call 1-888-49-Green and ask for show number 378.
The Environment Show is a presentation of national productions which is solely responsible
for its content.
Dr. Ellen Chartock is the executive producer.
Thomas Lale is producer and Stephanie Goichmann is the associate producer.
The Environment Show is made possible by the W. Open Jones Foundation, the Turner Foundation,
the J. M. Copeland Fund, the Packard Foundation, and Heming's Motor News, the monthly Bible
of the collector Carhobby, 1-800-C-A-R-H-E-R-E.
So long, and join us next week for the Environment Show.
