The Book Show Show 1310, 2013 August 25

Welcome to the book show A Celebration of Reading and Writers. I'm Jodh on you.
For years there were rumors that filmmaker Henry Jaglum had taped hours of his conversations
with Orson Wells but that the tapes had been lost. They weren't. Now the transcripts have been
released in a new book edited and introduced by Peter Biscuit. Wells regularly met his friend
in business partner Henry Jaglum for lunch in LA to discuss future projects, old anecdotes,
and Hollywood gossip. Jaglum kept a tape recorder running in his bag which Wells apparently
requested to accumulate material for an autobiography. Now when a book transcribed and edited by
Easy Writers, Raging Bulls author Peter Biscuit, these long rumored conversations are in print.
The new book is My Lunches with Orson and it's a great pleasure to welcome Peter Biscuit
to this week's book show. Thank you very much for being with us. I appreciate it.
Well thank you, Jow is a pleasure to be here. Always nice to have you aboard. What brought you
to this project? How did this fall into your lap? Well I ran into Jaglum initially when I was researching
the book you mentioned Easy Writers, Raging Bulls in the early 90s I guess. And Jaglum had come to
Hollywood in 1965 approximately and fallen in with a the BBS crowd, BBS being the company that
produced Easy Writers, the last picture show and five easy pieces. And that included Jack
Nicholson and a lot of the sort of hip or you know Dennis Hopper, a lot of the more
hip or elements in Hollywood. And he kept a diary of those years which was you know he shared
with me at least partially and which was very interesting. And during the course of our
conversations he told me that he had these recorded these tapes of his luncheon
with Orson Wells. At that time I was busy writing that book and subsequently other books and
you know but I always had in the back of my mind what happened to these tapes and might they be
turned into a book. After my last book which was a biography of Warren Beatty I was sort of sitting
around with nothing to do and looking for another book to do and I asked Jaglum about the tapes and
he had never played them and he had never revisited these conversations and he had been busy making
movies. So I persuaded him to have them transcribed and I read them to see whether there was enough
material in them for a book. I mean there were lunch conversations and lunch conversations can be
rambling and interrupted by visitors and ordering food and so forth. So I was a little skeptical
that in fact they would work but indeed they were amazing nuggets in these conversations and
Wells turned out to be rather extraordinary person. Talk a little bit about just about the rumors
around the tapes themselves because they were believed to be lost they didn't know if they existed
and but Jaglum knew that all along that he had them right? Yeah Jaglum knew they were there he just
just forgot him and he sort of forgot about them but he you know in terms of doing he had many
offers to actually turn the book turn the tapes into books but he turned them all down. It happened
that he was a fan of my Warren Beatty book he knew Beatty and thought I had done a good job
capturing him and so forth. So he was very open to letting me do it and that's the way it happened.
These conversations take place in the 1980s early 1980s where was Orson Wells in his career?
It was a few years before his death. It was yeah they took place in 83, 84, 85. Wells was
in the declining years of his career. I mean in some sense his movie career was over but he was
still trying to he was still writing scripts. He had a number of partially finished films that he
was trying to finish his writing original scripts and he had other projects in various people would
come to him with projects that involved him like there was one based on the cradle or rock which
was a play he put on in the 30s that was closed down by the government. So people you know there
were all kinds of different sorts of projects that he had and he was also doing commercials in
those days just trying to make a living to get enough money to live on. But he was very it seemed
in the book anyway that he was very aware of his cultural place at that time. He was I mean he
he was acutely aware of his own importance let's say and his myth you know
he would he would say I mean there was there's one incident in the book where Richard Burton comes to
his table and says I'd like to introduce Elizabeth would like to meet you meaning Elizabeth Taylor
and Wells just sort of brushes him off and says can't you see I'm eating and Burton sort of slinks off
and subsequently Jaglem sort of kicks Wells under the table and then berates him for being so
rude and Wells says something to the effect of he has to do the dancing bear act that's what people
expect of him they expect a bigger than life blustery arrogant personality and he acted that out
in many many instances. When it comes to Jaglem and his questions this was all under an agreement
between the two that this would this could perhaps be an autobiography. Yeah well as you know
envision the time when he would no longer be able to direct I mean he was already approaching it
and he couldn't get any of his projects off the ground and physically he was deteriorating he was
extremely overweight and his knees were not in good shape and directing is a physically exhausting
activity so he imagined that when he couldn't direct he would write his autobiography with
Jaglem's help and he wanted to use these tapes as notes. So with that Jaglem then becomes not
only a filmmaker but becomes an interviewer but he's still a filmmaker so it's interesting
in the questions that he asks and and the questions that would be different if say you were to
have lunch with Orson Wells. Well I think that's true I mean Wells sort of like
harrously directed through Jaglem. Jaglem asked his advice on various movies he was making and
Wells was very free with his advice very willing to give his advice would go into the editing room
and look at the look at the look at the scenes on the movie Ola and give Jaglem very specific and
helpful advice and you know I think what's unique about this book is that they were friends.
Jaglem performed each one benefited from the relationship. Jaglem was performing a service for Wells
namely trying to raise money for him the same way he raised money for his own films by selling
off European territories which was what the independent filmmakers did in the in the late 80s and
90s. Jaglem was a little bit ahead of his time and thought he could raise money for Wells in that
fashion. He also served as Wells kind of gatekeeper informal agent and manager and in turn
Jaglem I think enjoyed being the gatekeeper enjoyed the reflective you know the reflected glow
from Orson Wells who was after all. Citizen Kane was considered the best film of all top best
American film of all time. So for listeners who are hearing this story and perhaps not fully
aware of the power of Orson Wells but wondering of how someone like Orson Wells who was responsible
for Citizen Kane could come to a point in his career where he was persona non grata in Hollywood
seems very hard to believe. Well Wells is a classic case of somebody who peeked too early you know
he had a very very successful theater career before he even started in film he was on the cover
of Time magazine at the age of 23. He did Citizen Kane at the age of 25 and he was given final
cut by RKO the studio that produced it which was extremely unusual in Hollywood and also very
unpopular among the other studios who would never give directors final cut in those days.
After Citizen Kane Citizen Kane did not do well partly because it was William Randolph Hurst who
was widely seen as the prototype of Foster Kane who was the film was about pressured the other
studios who would those days own the exhibition chains not to show the movie so the movie was
confined to independent theaters which hurt its grosses. Also Hurst refused Hurst owned you know
a slew of newspapers and refused to take advertising for the film at any of his newspapers. So the film
didn't do well consequently RKO which had given Wells a final cut on a two-picture deal
Renegde on it renegotiated it in the second film and not deal which was magnificent Ambersons
well did not have final cut and through a kind of perfect storm of bad of poor circumstances
namely World War II broke out Jaglum was sent by President Roosevelt to do on a good will tour
Brazil. He lost control of the movie the movie wasn't finished when he left and it was edited in
Hollywood Jaglum I mean Wells expected the rough cut to be sent to him for his approval and
and for him to turn into a fine cup but that never happened because of the war it wasn't possible
to send the footage down and then I previewed the film in some town in the San Fernando Valley
that was you know where the audience was accustomed to Esther Williams films and the audience jeered
and laughed at a key places in the studio took the film away from Wells and recut it there after
there were many many films that either Wells lost you know that were recut by studios or Wells
from one reason or another couldn't finish so he gained the reputation as somebody who walked
away from his movie he was blamed for it he gained the reputation of somebody who walked away
from his movies got bored in the middle of them and didn't finish them and that is a kiss of death
in terms of raising money for future projects so what were his great successes what did he
consider his great successes to be well he made a cycle of three Shakespeare films Macbeth
a fellow and a film called Chimes of Midnight which was a malgum of fall staff material from
several different several of the different history plays you know he made you know parts up
the weird thing about is that parts of all his films are exceptional and parts of them were
you know ruined by the studios in some cases they were misconceived by Wells himself but I think
that you know he considered a touch of evil a really good movie and I have to agree with that
he made it towards the end of his career I think the last feature he made was a so-called essay film
a film that sort of falls midway between documentary and fiction called F for Fake which was a
kind of meditation on authenticity and art and fakery and it was made around the time that
Clifford Irving fabricated a fake biography of Howard Hughes and it also has to do with an
famous art forger and that film is really interesting but it was dumped by the distributor and nobody's
ever seen it and Wells always felt that had the film done well in America he would have done more
of those kinds of movies because they didn't require you know big budgets but it didn't do well
and he never made any more I think you know lady from Shanghai certainly has its fans you know
there are I would say the Shakespeare films those two films and parts of Magnificent Ambersons
Peter Biscond is our guest on this week's book show the name of the book My Lunches with
Orson conversations between Henry Jagleman and Orson Wells edited and with an introduction
by Peter Biscond when you consider the the tenor of these conversations there is a sentimentality
that kind of runs through them yes I think that's probably true but I think what's what's
unique about them is that as you alluded to earlier Jagleman was a fellow filmmaker and a friend
of Wells so he didn't approach these as interviews you know they were conversations I wouldn't say
exactly between equals because you know it was in fact Orson Wells and who was going to be who
was his equal but there were friends and Wells let his hair down in other words he fell free to
gossip about his friends and make you know lots and lots of critical negative remarks about them
people he knew he fell free to be completely completely politically incorrect until all kinds
of off-color jokes sexist jokes homophobic jokes racist jokes and yet down deep he was none of
those things which I think is you know it's also interesting he was a very in many ways a very
generous person and but he was bitter he was bitter that at his own what had happened to his own
career and he was it was envious of his peers like John Houston who succeeded in operating in Hollywood
and negotiating the Hollywood maze where he wasn't and he had many many ideas I mean much of what
he's talking about are ideas that he has for for future films and I guess ultimately looking for
that one last triumph he wanted to make King Lear he was desperate to make King Lear
and he wanted to make a film about Spain which he had shot part of he he wanted to do this
cradle will rock he had a film that was caught up in the French courts called the other side of the
wind and then he had of other he had another original screenplay called the Big Brass Ring which
was a back contemporary politics which is extremely interesting screenplay and he almost got that
produced Jaglem managed to find a producer on a milk channel who pledged eight million dollars if
Jaglem could get a touch or Wells could attach anyone of six or seven a list stars at that time
people who are a list stars at that time including Warren Betty, Jack Nichol Sinclin Eastwood Robert
Redford and so on and for one reason or another they all turned it down and never got produced
there were some wonderful cameos in this book where as you mentioned Richard Burton but like Jack
Lemons stop at the table Jack Lemons stopped at the table many many people there's a funny one of
the funnier ones is Vincent Mannelli's wife stopped at the table Vincent Mannelli was in the hospital
and was quite ill she stopped at the table and treated Orson as if he were Mannelli's best friend
and said you know Vincent Vincent Vincente would be you know so happy if you would call or you
would come by the house if we'd love to see you and so forth and so on and they you know she
said where can I reach you you know one would be the best time to call you you know and when she
finally left the table well said turned to Jagleman said I never met Vincent Mannelli I don't know him
and you know that was that sort of thing was going on all the time help bidder do you think he was
he was bitter there's no question about it I mean you can see in the in the conversations you know
the way he trashes people and how angry he is but at the same time you know I think partly you
know I think he blamed blame themselves you know that I think he recognized it in some sense
he had been his own worst enemy I mean it's interesting when you read when you read these or
listen to these tapes you see that he always had excuses for not going ahead I mean I mean it's a
funny combination of circumstance and character you know as I said a perfect storm of
unfortunate circumstances and character flaws I think that in some sense just crippled him
what was your reaction the first time listening to them of that because it would seem to me that
you would have that sense of of Eve's dropping in on a conversation well I did I was skeptical to
begin with I was not a well scholar you know I'd seen of course seeing all those movies but I'd
never been you know I was impressed by citizen came but I'd never become a devotee of wells
and I didn't know that much about him so I'm reading these these transcripts and as I said a lot
of it was just you know it had to be discarded but you know I quickly realized how brilliant he was
he had opinions about everything he had an enormous breadth of knowledge it's not just movies it's
politics and theater dance music classical music books all sorts of literature he was an omnivorous
reader and he had extremely original opinions about everything so every time he would come out with
some nutty idea and Jagleman would challenge him wells would never back down but but in defense come
up with a really interesting sort of crazy but a fascinating rationale for whatever it was he
was defending for example you know he attacks certain people like Betty Davis on the basis of
their her physical appearance he said I just didn't like the way she looked I could never stand
to see her on the screen and Jagleman said something like well how can you judge her based on
the way she looks and he said that's perfectly legitimate you know they're a personal they're
ethnic and racial characteristics that you know everybody feels this way but nobody will say it but
I will so he claimed that for example Sardinians had thick necks or Bosnians had stubby fingers and he
would go on and on that way and after a while you started to have believe him there was a great
intelligence there certainly on display in these conversations and one of the things that I found
fascinating was and you alluded to this moment ago but how culturally aware he was for for a man
at the at the end of his life and at the end of his career and an older man to be that aware of
what was happening on the greater cultural landscape I thought was was fairly impressive well he
followed everything you know he was you know I mentioned that he was very interested in politics he
twice considered running for senate once from his home state of Wisconsin one from California
and Alan Cranston who eventually became a senator from California to scourge him and said you'd
win more than California but you'd never win LA Southern California and then Cranston went and
Wells never ran and Cranston went on and ran and one well said he always considered that his seat
he was good friends with Franklin Roosevelt he knew Winston Churchill he hated Ronald Reagan he
had lots to say about Nixon and Kissinger and he had lots of interesting things to say about World War
2 and the French resistance he published a news he he he created a newsletter apparently that
went to the French resistance and he knew a lot about them and he had very interesting things to
say about people who collaborated with the Nazis like you know especially entertainers like Marie
Chivalier and he talks about how he changes his opinions about them over the course of the war
that he came to feel that who was he to be so critical of people who were in life and death
situations who he himself living in Hollywood you know and and lollying by his swimming pool he'd
never been in that situation and he shouldn't you know he should he should get off his high horse
that's essentially what he said a bit in a much more intelligent way than I paraphrased it
what are the challenges for you in in editing a book as opposed to writing one well it's a
whole lot easier I'll tell you that and you know I took a lot less time than I'm used to spending
on books but it's you know it's it does take some work you know and you have to know what to
keep what to keep and what to put in and want to take out and the book is organized roughly chronologically
but you know as conversations go the two of them would come back to the same subject in different
lunches over different lunches sometimes separated by months so I took most most instances I took
everything say about Charlie Chaplin that sometimes occurred months or years apart and put them in
one place so I reorganized it it's in rough chronological but not strictly chronological order
and the the other big challenge was that condition of the tapes was not great I mean the quality of
the tapes was terrible as you mentioned earlier the tape recorder was in a bag and then and then
beyond that they were taping in a restaurant so there's lots of background noise and even in the
best of circumstances conversations are hard to record accurately so trying to make sense out of
them you know it was in some instances very tough some of them some parts of them were very clear
and there's no issue but so I would say organizing them figuring out what to keep in what to
discard and and making sense out of some of them that were a little bit garbled was them were the
most difficult things to do was Jagel and a resource in that not as much as I would have liked
because these tapes were like 30 years old and he couldn't really remember the conversation so when
he read the read the the you know the rough cut of the book he was sort of amazed but I should say
the other part of editing it was finding a character arc in the book as if it were a novel and
what I tried to do was show wells as more hopeful in the beginning of the book 1983 and as as he gets
progressively disappointed by people who have pledged money and all they want to do is have lunch or
dinner with him but actually when push came to shove they were neged he gets more and more bitter and
disappointed more more depressed so that at the end he has a wonderful speech about
how the reputation of not only filmmakers but not you know but writers and artists are so
evanescent and he says one day he'll be totally forgotten it'll be as if a trapped door will open
up under him and he'll just be swallowed up the name of the book is my lunches with Orson
conversations between Henry Jaqulem and Orson Wells it is edited and with an introduction by
Peter Biscuit Peter thank you very much for being with us it's a pleasure having you on the
program well thank you Joe it's always a pleasure to be on your show thank you we enjoy hearing
from our listeners about the show you can email us at book at wamc.org you can also listen again
to this or find past book shows at wamc.org cereal adoog produces our program book marcus
for next week and thanks for listening for the book show i'm jodan you