Why are girls in India more likely to become scientists?
There was never a sense that these were subjects that would be difficult for girls, or even
something girls wouldn't be interested in.
Why American girls are still less likely to study science and math, and how education
and business help discourage the women who buck the trend.
I'm Susan Barnett, and this is 51 percent the women's perspective.
What is keeping American girls out of laboratories?
A study by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in 2011 found that women are vastly underrepresented
in science, technology, engineering, and math, the fields known collectively as STEM.
Women make up half the workforce yet they hold less than a quarter of STEM jobs, and women
with a STEM degree are more likely to work in education and healthcare, not research.
Yet, women in STEM earned 33 percent more than comparable women in jobs outside the science
and math fields.
Sarah McConnell has a report that looks at the issue from a number of angles.
The first real surge of women engineers came with World War II.
Lara Puaca, an historian at Christopher Newport University, studies that moment in history.
Often times we think of women in World War II, we think of Rosie the Riveter.
This is sort of like her cousin, Edna of the Engineer.
Today, women in overalls, women in war jobs are to be found throughout the length and breadth
of America.
Puaca says that during World War II, more than a quarter million women trained for jobs
as engineers' aids.
So essentially these were sub-professional positions where women assisted with things such
as drafting, and in reality they were serving primarily as assistance to higher ranking men.
Under the war, as things heated up with Russia, there were suddenly more and more science
jobs to fill.
But this time, the jobs weren't for women.
In fact, Lara says women engineers and scientists faced a hostile environment in the post-war
period.
But they fought back.
These women's engineering societies spring up in the immediate post-World War II period.
In 1950, several of these small women's organizations pulled their resources and formed the Society
of Women Engineers.
They held meetings where they would counsel each other, would give each other career advice.
They would also try to recruit and encourage young women, so high school students.
They would participate in career days, try to provide young women with female role models
in the field.
They wrote guidance literature, targeted toward young women.
But in the era of McCarthyism, all this talk about women in the workplace could be seen
as subversive.
So the Society argued that women engineers were necessary if the US wanted to beat Russia.
They did take such care in crafting this public image as not a feminist organization, even
though the kinds of activities that they were promoting and endorsing, I think many
folks would consider feminist initiatives.
But rather, they tried to frame them as service to the nation, service to the state.
And they made a good case pointing out that Russia had more women engineers than the US.
They estimated that in the United States, women engineers hovered around 2% of the engineering
population.
But they pointed out that women engineers in the Soviet Union represented nearly 30% of
the profession.
Today, there are women scientists and engineers who are still making these same arguments.
That women don't just need science and engineering for their own sake, but for the sake of the nation.
But things haven't changed much since then.
Only 91 women earned PhDs in engineering in 2008.
That means women made up less than 3% of the engineering PhDs.
Reporter Kavita Kardosa was born and raised in India, and her experiences there offer special
insight into the problem of women and the STEM fields.
Kavita is here with me now.
Hi Kavita.
Hi Sarah.
Kavita, you moved to the United States from India more than a decade ago.
And when we were talking earlier about your experiences there, you said something that really
surprised me.
You said that women in India don't really have doubts about their abilities in math and
science.
That's right Sarah.
In my high school, the STEM subjects were seen as cool.
And almost all my friends went into STEM careers.
There was never a sense that these were subjects that would be difficult for girls, or even
something girls wouldn't be interested in.
I went to a very regular school with all kinds of students from all kinds of backgrounds.
I think just culturally science and engineering or the STEM subjects are just really elevated
and given kind of a place of pride.
You weren't interested in particular in math and science yourself were you?
Not really, but I have four sisters and four of the five of us have gone into STEM careers.
In what way?
What did they do?
My elder sister has a PhD in clinical psychology.
I've got a sister who does stem cell research.
I've got another sister who's a radiologist.
She went into medicine, a range of science type careers.
It was just not seen as unusual at all.
What did you think when you came to America and heard people debating whether women were
as adept as men in the sciences?
I think it really, really surprised me.
What also surprised me was kind of the cultural aspects really, for example, when I arrived
there was the Barbie doll controversy.
They had the Barbie doll saying, I hate math.
And I remember thinking, oh my god, they wouldn't even sell one of these in India because girls
are so encouraged.
The STEM subjects, it was so wonderful if you went into them.
So do you think in India a special push was made to bring girls up to a par with men in
terms of the expectations of them in school?
It's kind of interesting because you have huge parts of India where girls don't even get
basic education.
So that is kind of a separate story.
And if you're talking about the middle class in India, I don't think it was a special
push.
I think it was just an expectation.
Why should the STEM subjects be different for girls than they are for boys?
I mean, we don't say, oh my gosh, history is easier for boys or for girls, you know?
I mean, they're just subjects to learn.
And I think when you take away the value judgment, you find lots of girls and boys love all
kinds of subjects.
You have looked into what is happening in America regarding this cultural bias or stereotype.
Have you found indications that the American stereotype against girls in STEM continues
into college and university level?
Yes, actually in 2012, there was this really fascinating study, Sarah, that showed a bias
in favor of men and science.
So there were two sets of science professors at universities and they were asked to judge
graduate student applications.
Each set was given identical applications, except one set were given the name John and
the other, the name Jennifer.
Judging competency on a scale of one to seven, John was given an average score of four,
but Jennifer, remember, this is an identical application, except for the name, she was
given an average score of 3.3.
Because also said they were more likely to hire John and the average starting salary
offered to John was $4,000 more than the average salary offered to Jennifer.
That story comes to us courtesy of with good reason.
If you missed it, WAMC did a series on women in STEM that is archived on our website, search
for access to advancement or women in science on the air at WAMC.org.
Coming up more on science, women and breaking down artificial career barriers, if you missed
part of this show or want to hear it again, visit the 51% Archives at WAMC.org.
This week's show is number 1241.
In her role with the Chemical Security Engagement Program of the U.S. Department of State, Nancy
Jackson travels throughout Asia and the Middle East and she is seeing a big change happening.
Women chemists are thriving there.
In most parts of the Middle East, she says there are more women studying chemistry than
men.
She talks about this increasing role women are playing in science internationally.
I'm Nancy Jackson.
I'm the media past president of the American Chemical Society and my day job is at San
Dia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
I help to support the U.S. Department of State in a program called the Chemical Security
Engagement Program and that allows me to work with chemists in Southeast Asia, South
Asia and the Middle East and sometimes even North Africa.
That has been one of the highlights, has been the highlight of my career, has been to meet
chemists and I've most enjoyed meeting women chemists from developing parts of the world.
They face different situations than I do but they are some of the most dedicated, caring
individuals I've ever met in my life and I'm very impressed by them and very lucky to
have gotten to meet many of them.
Some places that I go, for example in Malaysia, the chemists there have better situations,
fairly good equipment and are doing some very interesting sort of research.
Some of the places I go do not have really very safe labs at all.
In Egypt there's a lot of challenges, for example, in both the National Research Center,
there are big government laboratory facilities as well as some of the universities I've been
to.
There are difficulties in getting rid of old chemicals and the sort of thing and yet they
still sort of march on and they are training the future and helping to develop their country.
They're all very concerned about the environment, making things happen, being involved in sustainable
growth in some way or another and it's very impressive.
I've been doing this job for about five years and even in that short a time period I have
seen a few things change, particularly in Gulf countries.
So this past year I went to the Quate Chemical Society meeting and I had been to it a number
of years ago and this year I saw women chemists wearing western clothes and not even covering
their hair which I had never seen in Quate before.
So there's things are changing, women are becoming more involved.
In most parts of the Middle East there are more women studying chemistry than men.
They are becoming more and more involved after they graduate, not just teaching but doing
other things, becoming professors at universities, leading centers at universities.
There's a very talented woman who's leading a center at Jordan University that has to
do with materials and nanotechnology.
So I'm seeing women gain power in the scientific community all over and it's really exciting.
Nancy Jackson works for the Chemical Security Engagement Program of the U.S. Department
of State.
That interview comes to us courtesy of the Chemical Heritage Foundation and producer Mia
Lowe-Bale.
Sharon Haney, principal investigator at DuPont, received a BS in biochemistry from the University
of Pennsylvania and a PhD in chemistry at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
She shares the advice that helped her make the most of her experiences.
My name is Sharon Haney.
I'm a research scientist at DuPont Central Research located in Wilmington, Delaware.
She's an experimental station laboratory.
The notion of having a shell or some protective skin I think is very critical, particularly
at the time I emerged as a young woman in science.
There was one particular individual, a professor of Dr. Phoebe LeBoi who just recently died
who was a phenomenal mentor, activist advocate for women in the sciences.
What Phoebe did for me in particular was she was one of just two women in science who
I met when I was in chemistry at the University of Pennsylvania in the early 70s.
I had her as my thesis advisor.
What she left me in terms it was a lifelong legacy but it was simply words and some challenging
questions which have served to be sort of like neon signs that come up and emerge flash
every now and then and remember what Phoebe said.
And as served to I think enable me to rapidly develop that thickened skin or shell that
would sustain and protect me from the forces that I think often knock women off of the
pipeline in their science.
So this was the last semester.
I graduated early from Penn so this was in sort of November to December time frame in 1976
and we were just having our final discussion so to speak in terms of this is my send-off
interview with Phoebe and she says Sharon you are extremely bright, very highly motivated
but I'm concerned that that's not going to be enough for a woman of color going to the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Department of Chemistry.
I'm worried that you're not going to last because that's not all that counts.
You're going to have to have a lot more understanding of the way things work in the sense of being
I think a political sensitization and I had no clue what she was talking about.
I mean in terms of the reality of it really wasn't an old boys network.
I mean I saw the reality in my classes.
I mean I was always the only person of color and predominantly all white and largely all
male women were still a fairly small number.
And so you know so I recognize the reality of what my community of cohorts and peers
was that I was you know a rare species but I was still undaunted by the odds and just
assumed that by virtue of my academic success that it would be a clear road ahead.
And so her words to me which were lasting was that for a woman and for someone of color
just being smart is absolutely not going to be sufficient for your success going beyond.
You're going to have to have some I guess to use more current vernacular sort of street
savvy if you will political savvy in terms of how the world works.
And so going to MIT I was open to the experience of engaging in a more sort of open and genuine
way with other people on that journey of color and women and I found those alliances to
be absolutely essential.
And understanding the value of community and creating networks of support sharing
stories of how to navigate different survival skills and how to thrive.
And so it was tremendously important what she said I don't think I would have done
that had she not hit me on top of my head so to speak with the words that she spoke
to me that morning.
To hear our growing archive of stories from the field and to comment on the story you
just heard visit camheritage.org slash stories from the field.
We got district by district to other schools teaching children things which affect their
lives.
Let's hear from a younger but equally determined role model.
Hakima is a 13 year old Ugandan girl and a volunteer of the Child Rights Organization
Plan International.
She's leading Child Rights Initiatives in her school and her community.
Hakima attended this year's session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women where
she was interviewed by UN radio.
Most of the girls we have so many things which affect our lives.
Give me an example of two.
Girls at first to get married when they are still young.
Who forces girls to get married when they are still young?
They are family members.
Even culture believes.
They believe that girls must get married so that they become strong and well.
What about school?
They don't want girls to go to school that boys they will help them if they grow up.
They talk so many things that boys will do.
But also girls we believe that we can.
Now what do the fathers say?
The fathers don't want their girls to go to school?
Yeah.
There are some fathers who don't want and also their mothers who don't want.
If a mother says that my girl is going to school and a father says that this girl is
not going to school, do you think that two will win?
Strongest.
Who will win?
Sometimes a father.
If could be me the mother I will win.
How would you make sure that you win?
For me do you know what I do?
If he goes to work I go and I register the girl.
If the girls go to school and he asks me I just say and the one who paid the school
fees now you can remove her from school we see.
If you will.
You find that everybody knows your name that you don't want your girl to go to school
and you will get really ashamed.
Now tell me about your visit here in New York at the United Nations.
My visit here is to learn more about commission and status of women.
Things which affect women and girls.
And you know the theme of this session of the commission on the status of women is violence
against women and girls.
Yeah.
Tell me about is that a serious problem in Uganda?
Yeah it is very serious where girls are circumcised.
Let's talk about your schooling.
You seem to be enjoying going to school.
Yeah I enjoy.
What are you aspiring to be when you grow up?
I'm aspiring to be a doctor.
Why would you like to be a doctor?
For me I would like to be a doctor so that in case of a woman giving birth to a baby I help.
Hakima a 13 year old child's rights advocate was interviewed by UN radio.
Finally as many stereotypes as there are for scientists there are an equal number for
mathematicians.
Math Geeks, human calculators, nerds.
The commentator Tracy Wu has an essay on why it's important to embrace your inner nerd
and follow your interests.
Go ahead.
Ask anyone.
I'm a huge nerd.
I've learned to accept this but I will admit I did not start out one of those proud to
be me so screw you types.
Actually I desperately wanted to be cool.
But it just was not in the cards.
First I will lay some of the blame at the feet of my parents.
They were strict with me.
And by strict I mean they never allowed me to do or have cool things which in retrospect
was really brilliant.
I was allotted 30 minutes of television a day until junior high and I wasn't allowed
to listen to secular music.
I consider this the catalyst of my nerdish ways.
If you can't watch TV or play with the newest most popular toy what do you do?
You read, you write, or pursue some other nerdish hobby.
My lack of 80s pop culture knowledge still shocks and horrifies my friends.
I mean I didn't watch the goonies until I was 25.
Part of this is my ethnicity as politically incorrect as it may be to say.
Asians are supposed to be smart and while it's a stereotype at least it's a positive
one.
Being one of only a handful of Asian kids in my town I think teachers and classmates
just assumed that I was smart whether or not they were right.
So I was treated as a nerd practically on first sight.
And while my parents were by no means the strictest of parents in our Chinese circle my father
certainly made it clear that academics were a top priority.
However, I can't blame my parents or educators for all my nerdishness.
Throughout high school and college I began to embrace it and would happily admit to myself
that I enjoyed tearing apart Shakespeare's plays and issuing the mainstream.
Of course this was after trying to be cool and pretending I liked the clothes, magazines,
music and whatnot that my peers were into.
But I found I never really truly enjoyed any of it.
And I'm pretty sure everyone saw right through me which probably made me even nerder in their
eyes.
Now that I am an adult I am proud to announce via public radio that yes I am a nerd and
I am proud of it.
I don't want to listen to pop music in my car.
I'd rather listen to NPR and learn something of the world around me.
I don't subscribe to tabloid or women's interests magazines mainly because as a nerd I believe
that it's a waste of paper and harms the environment.
That and they don't teach us much more than who is sleeping with whom and how to wear lipstick
well.
I will choose styles of clothing that I am comfortable in not because they're hip or
in fashion.
I prefer thoughtful news and documentaries to trash your reality shows.
I will constantly be in the middle of two or three books and say a half the night reading
them.
I am never going to have a clue who the newest it actress is until she's no longer it.
None of this is going to change and I accept my permanent nerd card with pride.
In saying this I don't think that being a nerd is a bad thing.
Some of my best friends are nerds.
Actually all of them are.
They are intelligent, well read, thoughtful, insightful people who know what's up in the
world.
They have ideas, they create things and they are more wrapped up in improving things than
they are in themselves.
And I consider all of these traits good things.
So go ahead.
Embrace your inner nerd.
It's the new cool.
That's our show for this week.
Thanks to Katie Britton for production assistance.
Our theme music is by Kevin Bartlett.
This show is a national production of Northeast public radio.
Our executive producer is Dr. Alan Shartock.
If you'd like to hear this show again or visit the 51% Archives go to our website at
www.amc.org.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We'll be back next week with another edition of 51% the Women's Perspective.
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