Welcome to the book show, A Celebration of Reading and Writers, I'm Joe Donnieu.
Returning to the form in which he began Sam Lipside, author of The New York Times Best
Seller, The Ask, offers up the fun parts, a book of bold, hilarious, and deeply felt
collection of stories.
A boy eats his way to self-discovery while another must battle the reality, brandishing
monster, praying on his fantasy realm.
Meanwhile in a Robics Instructor, the daughter of a Holocaust survivor makes the most shocking
leap imaginable to save her soul.
Just a few of the stories, some first published in The New Yorker, The Paris Review, and Playboy.
Sam Lipside is the author of Venus Dry, The Subject Steve Homeland, and The Ask.
He teaches writing at Columbia University School of Arts, and it's a great pleasure to
welcome him to this week's book show.
Thank you very much for being with us.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited about this because I've been a fan of your work, and for whatever reason
I have not been able to set this up in the past.
When this book came out, I thought, well, this is great because I get to talk about stories
you've been doing novels, and then I get to talk about stories because that's how I
was first introduced to you.
Is it always your, for the next project, to consciously put together a collection, or
is this a collection in the true sense where things that you've written over the years
that you wanted to put together?
Well, it was a little of both because I've been writing stories as I was writing some
of the novels, or between them alongside them, and publishing them here and there.
And I had a few, and I began to think about doing another collection.
And then when I really decided to do that, I cleared the table for a few years and just
concentrated on writing short stories.
What is the power of this short story for you as a writer?
Well, I love the challenge of trying to do something in a limited amount of space.
I, Nathaniel West once said, he wrote very short novels, but he once said, you know,
you only have time to explode.
And I think about that with a short story as well.
And it doesn't have to be big pyro techniques, but you're really kind of reaching for a
single momentous effect at some point, usually at the end.
It's kind of more like writing a poem in some ways.
You really have to manage every word, every sentence.
Yeah, I try to do that in novels too.
I think we all do, but in a short story, it's really paramount that everything is in the
right place.
Do you know that that moment that crescendo at the end is that what you start with?
Or do you still have to get there?
I have to get there.
And when I write a first draft, I'm really just trying to figure out what it is I'm writing.
People say it starts talking to you.
And I found that, I have found that to be true.
So you're writing along and you don't know where it's going to lead you, but you know
what's behind you and you kind of have a shape that's taking form in front of you.
But you land at a certain point and sometimes you're lucky enough to recognize that that's
where you were supposed to land and that's the natural place for the story.
And sometimes you don't recognize it right away.
You shoot past it, but then you have to come back or you took a wrong fork and you kind
of double back a little bit and then take the other direction, usually a harder direction
and you get there.
And the...
If the story is successful.
I have a lot of failures stacked up at home.
How do you qualify that in the sense of what makes something a failure to a success as
far as your concern?
Well, to me it's something that I try not to publish the failures.
But the stories that they were beginnings that I didn't figure out.
And they never really led to anything interesting and they didn't land anywhere.
That was striking.
And they just kind of fizzled.
When...
So when you get something that works and doesn't fizzle and it starts to go, is there...
Is there that moment where you say, I could perhaps put this aside and this could be something
larger, this could be a novel or this has to be a story?
I can usually tell, you know, in the first writing, the first five pages or ten pages of
anything, I'm not exactly sure, but I begin to see fairly quickly whether the thing is
kind of opening up in a really expansive way that would allow more stories, more characters,
a bigger world.
Or if it's sort of taking on the contours of something shorter and needs to be kind of
contained and compressed to work.
Usually I'm writing and figuring and finding out what the thing isn't.
You know, okay, this isn't about space travel, this isn't about cowboys, this isn't about,
you know, with each sentence you're kind of eliminating a lot of possibilities too.
And so then you begin, I begin to get a sense of how long this thing will sustain itself
as well.
So there's a sense of obviously humor and outrageousness to some of what you write.
Is that difficult to hone and to work on and to revise without losing that quality?
Well, I guess I have to be a little careful, but a lot of the work that I do that I think
is really useful is revision.
The first draft is I'm just trying to get this lump of clay on the table.
And so I don't even like writing, I like rewriting, I like revising.
And people talk about the danger of doing too much of that, but I think that you know,
you can really fine tune things a great deal by sticking with them and putting them aside
and then looking at them again and letting time do some editing and letting yourself do
some editing.
Some of these things work on an intricate level and it takes a while, it takes drafts
to really get that working.
So how much of the process is thinking?
Is figuring out what that lump of clay is going to be and ultimately what it can become?
Well, I find that thinking apart from writing doesn't do me that much good.
It does towards the end of something when I'm really trying to figure out some kind of
micro level issues.
But really, my best thinking happens when I'm writing and not thinking so much and just
sort of letting the story and letting the language guide me.
And then I start to say things I didn't think I was capable of saying and I start to arrive
at scenes and moments that I hadn't thought of before.
I really find that the best thinking happens through composition rather than planning
something beforehand.
But that's how I work.
Other people can have it all in their head and then execute it.
I've heard writers describe that feeling though of being able to write something that
they didn't think that they were capable of writing.
That seems to me as it would be a magical moment.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's one of the reasons you do it.
And do you know what ingredients are there when you look back at it and say, okay,
that's it?
Well, I think that a lot of it has to do with coming to something that, to use that
old phrase, that's surprising but inevitable.
That's not what you expected, but seems exactly right now that you've written it.
That speaks to something you didn't know you wanted to speak to.
That speaks of an emotional truth you didn't know you were really reckoning with.
And you look at the stories in this book.
You don't think of a theme at all, obviously.
They're all over the place.
Yeah.
I mean, the themes, the theme is, I mean, I say it's a linked collection and it's linked
by the fact that I wrote them all.
Right.
Right.
The link is you.
And that, so although they have very different voices though, which is so interesting.
Well, I think if you write a lot, you begin to realize, they're all you in some way,
but they're also outside of you and there's this swirl that's going through you all the
time of everything.
You've thought and felt and read and heard about and overheard and misheard and things,
people's stories, people have told you and things you've witnessed and just it's a
big swirl.
And from that, there's a lot of stuff that might not sound like you, but is part of you,
is part of what's been coursing through you for a long time.
When you look at the individual stories that are in this collection, is there something
that you can point to a story perhaps that you point to and say, this is some of my,
this is some of my finest work or we're doing you look at it that way.
I, I don't pick because I think that they all have aspects of, of my finest work.
And you know, I'm not going to get sentimental about it and it's not like choosing a favorite
child as some others would say, but I've heard that a lot.
They also represent different moments in the, in the last few years and different things
I've been trying.
What's excited me a lot are some of the newer stories of only because, you know, their
fresher for me and represent work I've been doing lately.
And so stories like the climber room and deniers and disappointment occurs in the past, the
dungeon master.
Those are more recent stories and they're kind of unlike some of some of the things I've
written in the past and a couple of those stories of female protagonists, which I, you
know, hadn't done, I'd done that, but not published pieces with, with female protagonists
before.
And I felt, I felt happy about how those stories worked out and they all kind of, they
all are special to me in different ways.
The, the narrative voices that come through in this book are so, are so much fun and fascinating.
And I'll use one as an example in the Republic of Empathy.
Tell us a little bit about, about that voice, how it was chosen and what ultimately you
wanted to achieve.
Well, there are a couple of voices kind of revolving in that story.
So I started with the kind, with this character William Wu as a kind of slipstream moment at
the end, I guess, where he's not sure what, what year he's in.
But sort of a suburban dad, but then we moved to a, a young sort of edgy, edgy voice.
And it's the voice of a young adult narrator who's very aware that he's a young adult
narrator and a young adult novel.
And he's trying to get, break out of that novel.
And, but some of these characters are beginning to overlap.
And then we have a, a banker who's made a lot of money and now wants to explore questions
of authenticity in the art world.
And finally one of the voices that I felt was kind of a, a crazy choice at the time,
but I'm happy the way it worked out was the voice of a drone, a female drone of predator
type plain.
And I think, I think at one point I thought, oh, you know, you could do a whole novel
in the voice of a drone, but I, I wanted to test it out really as, as part of a story.
So that was a drone sister, Reaper.
And I think, I think I had a lot of fun with that.
Sam Whipsight is the author of the new collection of stories, the fun parts that is published
by FSG.
There always seems to be kind of that violent, there's that meltdown.
There's the, yeah, things sort of collapse.
It might be kind of sometimes it's an implosion, it's an inward collapse and sometimes it,
it takes place in the external world and there's little violence.
But yeah, there's always something going wrong.
And sometimes it can be vague and sometimes very explicit.
And that is, do you see yourself ever writing something different than that?
Or is that, is that you?
Well, I think that I've had a lot of quiet moments in my other, in some of my other books,
but I think that we kind of are sometimes caught in this idea that, oh, nothing, you know,
you shouldn't write some, some kind of big moment or violent moment or crisis moment
because that's not really what life is, you know, like, but it is what it's like.
And there's a lot of stuff going on around us and in our, and in the sense of our turmoil,
our own turmoil.
And so I feel that, I feel that it's important to face up to some of that stuff and not just
pretend everything is, everything is represented by, by staying with the, the quiet desperation
at all times.
Sometimes the desperation is not that quiet.
I don't know why.
I just thought of like a question to ask you whether it seems odd, but I'm going to ask
you anyway.
And that is, once you get that out, does your sleep pattern change at all in the sense
of, if you've been dealing with something that is violent or something that is, that
has a turmoil to it, is that different, is that cathartic and getting that out as
opposed to having it sort of raging inside of you?
Well, I don't know that it's always raging inside of me and I need to get it out.
Sometimes it is, but some, but catharsis is a byproduct of, of I think what I'm trying
to do, which is create thought and feeling and other people.
You know, I'm doing this, creating these effects for other people to, to enjoy or to engage
with readers.
And so I don't do it to get something out, if something, if I feel relieved in some
instances, that's great.
But yeah, there's probably some element of unburdening that happens just from writing.
I think when I'm not writing, I get very antsy and I get a little, yeah, I get, I get
jumpy, a little angry.
And when I'm writing, no matter really, the content doesn't really matter.
It's more, am I in the process of creating characters and writing, writing these, these
stories or novels?
I know certain serenity enters my life.
The commonest one in that communication.
Because I know that it's not even, that I'm communicating, it's that I'm, I'm making
and creating.
Yeah, I'm inside of a world that I'm making.
And so I don't, I don't have to be disappointed by the real one.
One of the wildest stories in the book is the wisdom of the duels.
Tell us a little bit about how that, that came about.
Well, after my wife had her first child, she became very interested in the birth process.
And she became a, she studied very hard, became a childbirth educator and something she's
a sometime doula and she's written books on childbirth and early newborn care.
She's a real expert in that field.
And so sitting around, I absorbed a lot of stuff.
And then one day it occurred to me, you know, I'd be fun to think of a, the character
who was the worst person for the job.
So in terms of being a doula, in terms of being in charge of taking care of a woman after
she's given birth or even while she's given birth, there are kind of different kinds
of doulos depending on the situation.
But somebody who is not patient, who is not that giving, who is filled with anxiety.
And so that, the character of Mitch was born.
And I was able to use a lot of the stuff I'd so gleaned from, from my wife and her, her
research and teaching for that story.
And the Godwold family basically has to be persuaded to take on this guy.
Yeah, well, he came, he comes highly recommended, but it turns out that, you know, here's a spoiler
alert, but it turns out that he forged the letter of recommendation.
Yeah, because all, all goes well for about a paragraph.
Yeah, it's not that he doesn't know what he's doing.
He says that he doesn't know.
It's his bedside man, really, that's kind of a problem.
There is the joke writing in it, right?
I mean, there is sort of a one to punch.
Well, there's two elements of comedy.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's important.
And is that a challenge to write in the context of something larger, even if it's a short
story or an unknowable?
No, it's all mixed together for me.
It's sort of my filter.
It's how the world comes through me and how language comes through me and sometimes,
or usually it's some collision of the tragic and the comic.
I mean, I think, or maybe the phrase, Syria, comic helps, but I always see things as incredibly
sad and incredibly funny at the same time.
And so I'm interested in how these things thread together in a way that gets to real
feeling on the page.
You know, that isn't just a downer and that isn't just jokes, but is a kind of gets to
the texture of life.
You spoke about the rewriting process a few moments ago, but in the creation of that
the wonderful dialogue that we read to get the timing of that so wonderful, I would assume
that does have to be poured over and worked on.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's sort of, there's a lot of revision in the dialogue.
Because it's about timing and it's about, and I know I never want the dialogue to be
sort of set apart from the other sections or the other elements of the narrative as though
we'll just get through this.
These are just people saying, yeah, and okay to each other.
And then we'll get back to the really the important writing.
I feel the dialogue needs to be as shaped and as charged as the description.
When you...
Yeah, the action.
Which often comes very, very quickly.
Sometimes.
And then there are immediate turns, I hope.
And are you constantly thinking of the turns or the turns just happen?
Well, in the beginning I sort of turn blindly or I take the turns that...
And then in revision I begin to see, well, I don't need to go there, I should go there.
Oh, I missed one here.
This was a great opportunity to take it, to link that to this and to get, you know, to
get this thing that I want to happen sooner.
Whatever it is, you know, you begin to see a better route as you revise.
When you think of your progression as a writer and your confidence and even in the process
of teaching at Columbia, what wisdom do you think that you have gained that you like
to impart upon students?
Well, I'm wary of universal nuggets of writing advice because I find working with these
very talented people that it's case by case.
It has to do with what each person is working on and I try to engage with...
They're writing based on what their goals are.
And so I'm not trying to get them to write like I write, so I'm trying to figure out the
best way I can help them do what they're trying to do.
And so what, you know, I could say to one right what you know and say to the other right
what you don't know and those things fit where they are and what they're up against in
their work.
So I really don't even believe that there are these kinds of these general platitudes
that really can benefit everybody.
You know, show don't tell is a big creative writing, dictum, and I think that some of the
best things I've read are all telling and some are all showing and what are you doing?
What are you trying to do?
What are you trying to pull off here?
Because as long as you can pull it off, you can do anything and break any rule.
Was there a person for you that helped in the process earlier?
Yeah, well at a certain point I studied with the editor writer and teacher Gordon Lish.
He, you know, I was in my early 20s and it was a...
It had no real writing ego and it was a really kind of great time to go in there and just...
Most of all kind of stripped myself of a lot of ticks I had and a lot of tricks that
had gotten me through up till then to the point where people could pat me on the head and
say, you know, you're good, you're good for your age or you're a good high school writer.
And suddenly I wasn't in high school anymore and I was in my early 20s and I really hadn't
progressed and I really...
And so really studying with somebody who was so passionate and so giving of his time
and his ear, which was an amazing ear, really was a big influence.
The Ask was such a wonderful novel and was so over-seed.
Were you proud of that and how it went out into the world?
Yes, I mean, I'd had it really kind of up and down publishing career because I'd gone
through a lot of rejection at different times and then acceptance in other countries and
then acceptance here.
And so the Ask, I was just thrilled with the way that it sort of got taken up by people
and really looked at and reviewed and taken seriously.
I was very pleased with the reception to the Ask.
The new book is The Fun Parts Stories.
It is published by FSG.
Sam, on the other hand, I want to thank you very much for being with us a real pleasure
to have you here.
Thanks, thanks for having me.
Thank you.
We enjoy hearing from our listeners about the show.
You can email us at book at wamc.org and you can listen again to this or find passbook
shows at wamc.org.
Sarah Laduke produces our program.
The show is recorded at the radio foundation in New York City, my thanks to their team.
Book Marcus for next week and thanks for listening for the book show.
I'm Joe Dono.
