Onondaga Nation of Indians v. Minnie Schenandoah et al, Court Transcript, 1928

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT couar
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
oR OR OR OK OK Kk OK OR OK OK Rk Ok
ONONDAGA NATION OF INDIANS
~against~

MINNIE SCHENANDOAH, et al.

Wei See

ROR OK OK OR OR OR RO OK OR OR OR OR

. MINUTES OF PROCHEDINGS had in the above en-
titled matter at a Special Term of the United States
District Court held in and for the Northern District
of New York, in the County Court House, Syracuse,
Onondaga county, State of New York, commending on
Wednesday, February twenty-ninth, 1928, at ten
o'clock in the morning.

PRESIDING:

HONORABLE FREDERICK H. BRYANT,

FEDERAL JUDGE.

APPTARANCES:

OSCAR J. BROWN, HSQ., University Building,
Syracuse, New Yor, Attorney, for the Plaintiff;

MESSRS, CREGG BROTHERS AND RULISON, City
Bank Building, Syracuse, New York, Attorneys for the

Defendants.

1920 seep 13

THE OOURT: You may proceed, gentlemen.

MR. OREGG: If the court please,there is a stipulation
in the case.

This is a trial of certain issues set forth in the
stipulation, first, to determine who are the duly and
regularly constituted chiefs of the Onondaga Indian
Reservation, and that involves, for instance, of. course,
the persons entitled to this fund now on the reservation
and how any future moneys that may come into or belong
to the reservation will be disposed of

I presume in this proceeding we have: the initiative.
Idon't know. We are the defendants and I don't know
as it makes much difference whether we go first or Mp.
Brown goes first.

But, briefly, this is the history of the situation,
as I understand it: The Onondaga Indian Reservation,as
you probably know is about seven miles south of the oity-
I don't think it is that far since the city line has been
extended. It 1s comprised of several thousand acres of
land and there are some seven hundred and fifty odd
Indians residing there, Onondaga Indians, who happen
tobe on their reservation or away from the reservation

and claiming that as their home.

There seems tohave been peace and harmony on the

reservation from time immemorial until down about
1923. At that time Mrs. Kellogg came on the reservation
and stirred up the idea thet the Indians on the reserva-
tion were entitled to most of the land in the state of
New York, these Indians and others of the Six Nations,
and in that way began roraise funds among the Indians
and factions sort of arose at that time.

At that time George Thomas was Head Chief of the
Six Nations of Indians. In Mareh, 1984, they had a
Council of the Six Nations, and George Thomas at that
time being friendly with Mrs. Kellogg and her schemes,
they deposed him as Head Chief because of his neglect of
duty towards the Indians on the reservation.

Now, along it seems on the first, or about the
first of January, 1925, a lease was made of some sand
banks on the reservation. Prior to that time very little
moneycame into the reservation. There were some quarry
lands out there, not of much value, or considered not
of much value at that time, from which there was a very
small revenue, but that came in and was distributed

without any strife.

This sand bed was opened in 1925 and considerable

sand being immediately taken from it, it developed that
there was probably going tobe some money there and then
the trouble started. The lease providedthat one-third

of the moneys received was tobe paid over to the nation
and two-thirds of it to the owner of the lands. There

is twokinds of land on the reservation: One iswhat is
known as nation land and the other is what is knownas
individual land. There 1s a doubt as {eandthar the
individual owners or whether the reservation itself

has the fee to that land, but so far as this proceeding

is concerned that is immaterial. It is conceded by every-
one that the Indian has the possessory right and has the
right to lease that and retain the fund subject to the
approval of the Indian Agent. The Indian Agent, appointed
pursuant to the statutes of New York State, has sort of
supervisory control over the Nation.

Now, while it is claimed that the State of New York
has no right to legislate so as to bind the Indians on
the reservation,whether or not that is so, we claim that
the Indians, because of their custom duringa number of
years, have adopted the New York State statutes as

part of their laws and customs on the reservation.

Theyaccept annuities and they recognize the Indian
Agent as having the authority to approve or disapprove
of their contracts, and so everyone has recognized the
Indian Agent has having supervisory control there. So,
whether the state has authority or not, we olaim that
the Indians by virtue of their actions have adopted
those statutes as part of their laws and customs on
the reservation.

Now, this proceeding was first tried out before
Judge Ryan as special master appointedby Judge Cooper
and in that he held that the lease was valid andthat
one-third of the moneyfhould belong to the nation
and two-thirds to the possessory owner of the property,
and the moneys were paid over to the possessorym owner
and pursuant to a stipulation at that time the Indian
Agent was allowed to retain the one-third belonging to
the Nation, and he has not distributedthat because
the chiefs on the reservation, one faction claims they
are entitled to it and another faction claims that they
are entitled to it and so that has not been distributed
and we oome nowto the question of determiningwho are the

duly constituted Chiefs of the Nation.

The customs and authorities of the Nation, in
a generalway are these, as I understand them? The
reservation is divided into clans, called the Snipe,
Beaver,and soforth, I think; nine or ten clans on
the reservation. Hach clan is entitled to a certain
number of chiefs. Those chiefs selectedand put in
office in the regular way, elected a head chief of the
Onondaga nation. The Onondaga Nation is the Fire Keeper
for the Six Nations of Indians. The Oneida Nation is
the Wampum Keeper.

When there is a vacancy in the office of chief of
any clan, the adult women of that clan get together
and select a male descendant of the clan, or a woman
who is known among the Indians as the condolence mother,
selects a male descendant of the clan as being the proper
chief to be named. When that is done the oldest female
of the clan notifies the head chief of the Onondagas,
the Fire Keepers, that they are ready to raise a chief.
The name is then taken before the chiefs of the Onondagas,

if the chief is to be raised in the Onondagas, if the

chief is to be raised in some other nation, why, then,
the chiefs of that nation, but that name is then taken

before the chiefs of the Onondagas, and passed upon, and.

if there is no objectionto that person as being achief,
thena Condolence of the Six Nations is called.

That Condolence is called by the Head Chief of the
Onondagas going to the Wampum Keeper and giving him
notice and asking that he fix a date for that Gondolence.
These things are important because we claim that is the
only way that achief can be duly whashed on the. reserva-
tion and that is important here becausethe question will
come up as to whether certain Gondolences were regular
or whether theyx were not.

Now, after the Wampum Keeper, he being an Onelda
Indian, fixes a date for the Oondolence,then he notifies
three Nations, the Oneidas, the Mohawks and the Tuscaroras
and they sit on one side of the council chamber; the
Head Chief of the Onondagas notifies the other three
nations, the Onondagas, Senecas and the Cayugas, that
a Condolence is to be held at which a chief is to be
raised,

Then they meet at wherever this Condolence is designa-
ted to be held, whether it is in Cattaraugus or on the

Onondaga reservation, or whatever reservation it is desig-

natedto be held. They meet there and then they go through

@ regular ceremony at the council chamber, and in that

ceremony this clan mother, as they call here, who

has notified the Chief of the Vnondagas, comes forward
and names her man to be put in as chief and at that
ceremony the chief is regularly installed. Until that
time there can be no installation ofa chief.

Now, any chief who is in office cannot be deposed
except for cause. They have certains causes, four or
five in number, I think, drunkenness,neglect of family,
disobedience of the rules of the order, and another,
and I think the fifth one is that where they adopt the
whiteman's religion, they are no longer entitled to be
chiefs. But the only thing that cank be done in that
respect is what they call plucking their feathers and
cutting them part way down, silencing them,if you please,
but, nevertheless, they are chiefs until the installa-
tion of a new chief and a regularly selected deposing
chief, or the chief maybe deposed at a regular condolence
without naming a new chief, as I understand it, but the
chief cannot be deposed in any other way except the way
he is raised.

Now, we claim that the traditions on the reservation,

the rules and regulations on the reservation from time
immemorial have established that practice and there is
no written constitution on the reservation, and we claim
that a certain number of chiefs aredully installed
through that procedure and that any other chiefs are not
regularly installed.

Now, it is a common rumor and a common byword among
thepeople that thé Indians are pagans. They claim they
are not pagans. They claim they have what theycallthe
Indian Religion, established bya a fellow named Hangon
Lake along in the early seventies or eighties, and they
have a religion on their reservation; they do not worship
any pagan God, but they say if the Indians are going to
hola office on the reservation they must adhere to that
Indian Religion, and if they take up any other religion
they automatically forfeit their rights to hold office
on the reservation.

Now, I think with that explanation perhaps Your
Honor understands our side of it, and we feel we will
be able tom establigsh that these chiefs whom we repre-
sent are the duly constituted chiefs who represent these

Indians at the present time.

MR. BROWN: If the Court please:---I think we ought
to stops moment and get into this litigation that we
have here. We are takingthis proceeding in an action
which is before this court in which the plaintiff is
named as the Onondaga Nation of Indians and for whom I
appear. Thequestion of who are the chiefs is one of
the important questions in that action and probably the
most important question. It was brought for the purpose
of setting aside this lease on the claim of the Nation
that the time honored custom and law of the nation
provided that the share of the Nation in the mineral
rights of the land, anything under the soil, was a share
larger than the one-third which is reserved in this
lease.

Now, as I stated to Your Honor before, a number of
pages of evidence were taken, nearly all of which was
devoted to the question of who are these ohiefs and
inasmuch, if it is proper for me, as plaintiff, to first
present the evidence, Iam going to present this evidence
rather than any sworn testimony.

I think I ought tosay something about what is in it.

Now, this evidence goes into these customs and laws

which Mr. Oregg has spoken of and there is not any

serious disagreement about these customs. There is some
disagreement about some things, and parttcularly the
thing he has last stated, that a man's adherence to

a certain religion has anything todo with becoming

a chief, and that we deny entirely. There is no such
law. And we also deny that these customs and laws are
entirely unwritten. They are written to a certain ex-
tent. They appear on certain very aged wampums

or strings of beads, which are now deposited with the
University of the State of New York by consent of the
Indian Nations. These Wampums were beginning to disap--
pear and were ratherly poorly taken care of and some
years ago the University of the State of New York was
constituted the Wampum Keeper for the purpose of main-
taining these records, and so that now in the records
of the University of the State of New York there is a
translation of these wampums.

Now, these translations were offered and received in
evidence in this case and to those we refer as indicative
of some of these customs. At the opening of this case
the two parties were able to agree to a certain extent
on certain of these chiefs. As Mr. Cregg said, there was

no dispute until a few years ago. While he and I may

Mdageds about who was the cause of the dispute, certainly
no attorney when in Court eould seriously question the
right of the Indian people or any other people to
litigate any rights that they thought they had. They
ought tohave that opportunity. That is what we have
courts for and that is what our system of justice is
maintained for. If they have any claims or rights they
want to have litigated they are entitled to have them
litigated, without having anybody say that because this
particular faction thinks a certain thing that shows

they are not fit to govern, because, if they did not, in
my opinion they would be charged with certain dereliction
of duty if they did not litigate rights that any consider-
able portion of their people thought that they had.

Now, at the opening of this case the parties entered
into a stipulation and it was stipulated that certain
persons were chiefs, that 1s, there were certain chiefs
that we were able to agree on on both sides, and the
names - before I read them I will say that each clan is
entitled to two principal chiefs and two socalled sub-
chiefs or bodyguards. Now, some of these clans are

extinet by reason of the fact that the female line of the

clan - that there are no females left with which to

make chiefs and, as Mr. orege said, we agree that the
descent is through the female line upon the Indian
Nation.
We stipulated that the following were principal

chiefs: Andrew Gibson, Frank Isaacs, George Crow,

George Van Avery, Senior, George Van Avery, Junior,

John White, Charles Green, James Lyon and William Web-
ster. Now, since this stipulation, whioh is under date
of March third, 1927, a year ago, two of these Ihave
named, George Van Avery,Junior, and James Lyon have
died. We then stipulated that Rubin Jones and Davis
Green, Emmett Green, Howard Hill and George Webster
were bodyguards or sub-chiefs; and the simple reasonfor:
that was that the plaintiff, the portion of the

Indians that I represent, claimed that there were seven-
teen, only, chiefs upon this reservation, and of those
seventeen we claimed werechiefs, the defendant admitted
_ fourteen of them were chiefs. That is, we were in that
situation at that time. The claim of the defendant was
that there were twenty-two such chiefs and of the twenty-

twothat they claim, fourteen of them were the fourteen

that were admitted of the seventeen and that left eight.
Now, this record contains the testimony of everyone

but two of the admitted chiefs, the people that were

admitted to be chiefs, it contains the testimony of

everyone but two, and everyone of those but two, one

of them - let me check again to see that I am right

in what I am about to say, - contained the testimony

of everyone but three, and everyone of those chiefs

that were sworn adhered themselves to the government and

the council of chiefs that I here represent.

We also swore and in this’ record is the sworn
testimony of the condolence mother of everyone of these
clans. Now, I think it is fair to say that there maybe
some dispute as to whether or not the particular person
sworn in one case was the condolence mother of that
particular clan, but the condolencemother is the one
who has the hereditary right to name the chief repre-
senting her clan; that is, this government is a patriar-

chial form of government and the woman names the ruler.
She does not rule herself, but shenames the ruler, and
then she has the right for cause to depose, or to pro-

pose for deposition the chief she has named, and the

laws and customs require that she first admonish him

on at least two different occasions that he is guilty
of failure to conduct himself as the interests of the
nation require, or as her olan demands, and ‘then if he
fails to do that she proposes him for deposition.

Now, one of the disputes here involves, probably
the principal dispute centers around these chiefs and
involves the head chief of the Six Nations. The Onon-
dagas, as Fire Keepers, had the heréditary right to
name the principal chief of all the Six Nations of
Indians, that is, he must be an Onondagan by hereditary,
and he must be named by the Onondaga Council.

Now, concededly, George Thomas , about whom some
of this quarrel centers, was at one time the head chief
of the Six Nations. Now, the defendant concedes that.
He was nominated by the council and accepted by the
rest of the nations. Now, there is a claim upon the
part of the defendant that the condolence mother, the
then condolence mother of his clan deposed him. Now,
we say to that that she had no power of deposition over
him, that is, her power of deposition extended only

over the chiefs of her clan that she nominated and who

served as chiefs of her clan. He was not such a

clan chief. He was a chief who was selected and a
mended by the Onondaga Nation and giving to the office
of Principal Chief of the Six Nations.

THE COURT: Let me ask you a question at this
point to clear up a point in my mind: If he had been
legally deposed as chief of the Onondaga Nation, could
he then continue as Chief of the Six Nations?

MR. BROWN: Well, he was not made ohief of the
8ix Nations as Chiefs of the Onondagas are made. He
was not raised as a chief of the Onondagag, but he
was elected or selected first by the Onondaga Nation
to serve as Chief of the Six Nations; that is, the
customs and usages and laws governing Head Chief are
not ¢he customs and usages and lawe which govern the
tribal chiefs,

THE COURT: Do the chiefs of the Onondagas select
a head chieft

MR. BROWN: They select a head chief, not only
over the Onondagas, but of the Six Nations, and the

Court will bear in mind that no chief can be made of the

Six Nations without the consent of the Onondagas, but
in the socalled Oonfederacy of these six nations, they
must have a candidate for this office from the Ononda-
gas; he must be proposed by his condolence mother,

but he never can become chief until the 8ix Nations
have set in their session, which theycall a condolence,
and have ratified that choice.

Now, Charles Green concededly is and has been a
chief of these Onondagas for over fifty years. That
is, the defendant conceded it on the trial and I do not
think there is any dispute now that he was chief.

He is the chief that we claim is treasurer of this
nation and concededly he was treasurer for eight or
twelve years; I have forgotten the number of years;
and, in fact, he has been continuously treasurer, I
think, except for two years, right up to this time.
Now, I speak of that, because there is a dispute
about the person whom they claim to be treasurer, and
because in order to be treasurer he must be one of the
Council of Chiefs.

Now, I am not going further. I see no need of

going into all of these things that are covered her i
re in

the evidence. At any rate, Your Honor will necessarily

have to read this testimony, but as far as offering any
testimony on our part is concerned, it seems to me

I ought to rest on testimony already taken, and if there
is any other evidence on our part I think it ought to
pe a question of rebuttal, and if there is any produced
on the trial here by Mr. Oregg that needs to be contro-
verted, I will be very glad to meet it.

THE COURT: That is, you want to rest on the evi-
dence that has already been taken inthis action.

MR. BROWN: Yes.

THE COURT: Have you any objection to that?

MR. OREGG: No, we haven't any objection to his
resting.

THE COURT: Well, I desire that neither side will
go into or attempt in any way to duplicate any evidence
that is already in. Im this proceeding, let us confine
ourselves to new evidence, and do not duplicate evidence
by the same witnesses.

MR. OREGG: Not by the same witnesses, no. I don't
believe we will duplicate very much when we get through

with it.

19
We will have to have an interpreter sworn for A. About forty-eight years.
some of these witnesses. Q. And you are a chief on the reservation?
(DAVID R. HILL, with the consent of both sides, A, Yes.
sworn as interpreter.) Q. Of what clan are you?
Ae Beaver olan.
ANDREW GIBSON, Q. Is there any written constitution on the reservation
called as a witness on behalf of the defendants and ; or any written bylaws?
being duly sworn, testified as follows, through ths A. No, sir. :
Interpreter: Q. Will you tell us what the custom of the reservation
DIRECT EXAMINATION is in reference to making chiefs?
BY MR. OREGG: , 4. In the beginning we lieve that the consolence
Q. Andfew, you are an Onondaga Indian? ; mother, or the clan condolence mother, that the
A. Yes, sir. . condolence mother must believe in the Indian re-
Q. And reside on the Onondaga Indian Reservation? ligion fromwhich this nomination can be made.
A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, is the reservation divided into clans?
Q. How old are you? : A. Yes, sir,
A. I will be sixty-five this next month. d Q. ANd can you name the different clans?
Q. You were born on the reservation‘ : A. Ido not think I can call the names. I know
A. He was born in Grand River, Canada, i that there are nine clans,
Q. Of an Onondaga Indian mother? 7 Q. Nine clans on the reservation?
A. Yes, sir, q . A. Yeg sir,

Q.How long have you resided on the reservation?

. And what do you mean by the condolence mother?

A. It is the woman that the women decide as to who
is to represent their clan,

Well, what women; the women of that particular
clan?

A. Yes.

And must they be Onondaga women?

A. Yes, sir.

And all being descendants?

A. Yes, sir. ,

Now, when there is a vacancy and a chief to be
made , do all the women of the clan have a voice in
it?

A, They all decide and agree on one and then it is
then put before the chiefs, the council of chiefs.
And that is, all the women of the particular clan,
agree on a man?

A. Yes, sir,

And is there some woman in that clan that then
speaks for the clan and carries the name to the
chiefs?

A, The oldest clan mother of that clan is the ane

that announces the nomination before the chiefs.

. And to what chief does she make that announcement?

A. The had chief of the council.

. Of the Onondaga reservation?

A. Yes, sir.

And how long huve you been head chief of the Onon-
daga reservation?

A. About thirty-eightyears,

And you still are head chief?

A. Yes, sir.

Now, after the name is presented to you as head
chief, what next ie done?

A. Why, after the nomination is laid before the
chiefs for their approval, they decide whether he
is efficient or es I presume.

Well, now, let me see if I can get this step by
step: You say that after the clan mothers get
together and select a name, the oldest clan mother
is then authorized to notify the head chief of

the reservation of that selection, and then does
the head chief after that call a meeting of the

council on the reservation?

A, After they havedecided on this nomination, it is
then referred to the Wampum Keeper, who is the
Oneida Chief.

You don't understand what I mean. After the name
is first prewented to you as head chief, do you
then call a council of the chiefs and tell them who
the man is that was selected?

A. He does not understand that. I will try to make
him understand. (Question intrepreted again)

Yes; after the name is presented, then he calls

the council together.

. And who calls the council together?

A. The head chief. I appoint a runner who notifies
the other members of the council.
That is, the head chief appoints a runner?

A. Yes.

. And is that the only way the council can be called

together officially?
A. Yes, sir,
Then after the name is presented to the council and

the council approves it, what is done then toward

making a chief?
A, Then the matter is referred to the Wampum Keeper,

Oneida Chief, whosets a date for the Condolence.

Q. Does the Wampum Keeper belong to the Oneida

Indians?

A. Yes, sir,

Q. And who is the Wampum Keeper?

MR. BROWN: Well, I object to that as calling
for a conclusion. I think this evidence ought to show
as to who this man claims is the Wampum Keeper and
also his claim as to his own status.

MR. CREGG: You do not deny that he is the Head
Chief on the reservation; do you?

MR. BROWN: And I would not deny that he is not.

MR. CREGG: Well, you conceded it on the last
trial.

UR. BRQWN: That is: true.

THE COURT: Is there any dispute as to who the
Wampum Keeper ist

MR. BROWN: Yes,that is one of the disputes.

THE GOURT: Well, then adopt the suggestion

contained in the objection.

MR. OREGG: Very well.

BM MR. CREGG:

Q. WHo do you say is the Wampum Keeper?
A.ADam Thomas,

Q. And is Adam Thomas an Oneida Indian?

A. Yes, sir.

How long do you say Thomas has been Wampum Keeper?
A. About eighteen years,
Q. And has the Wampum Keeper the sole right to fix
the date for the condolence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can a date for a condolence be fixed in any other
way except by the Wampum Keeper?
A. Yes, sir,
Q. Well, what is the other way; can it be fixed in any
other way?
A. No, there isn't any way.
MR. BROWN: He did not say that, Mr. Hill,
He said "yes",
THE INTERPRETER: He said he is the only one
that has the power.

BY MR. OREGG:

TO fix a date for a condolence?

A. Yes, sir,

. After the Wampum Keeper fixes the date for the con-

dolence; then what is next done?

A. He then notifies three nations.

. What three nations does the Wampum Keeper notify?

A. Oneidas, Tuscaroras and the Mohawks.

Ana who notifies the other three nations?

A.I have also the power to notify?

That is, as Head Chief of the Onondagas?

A. Yes, sir, ,

And is that the only way that the different nations
can be notified?

A. Yes, sir,

. Now, who fixes the place where the condolence will

be held?
A. The Oneida Chief.
The Oneida Chief or Wampum Keeper?

A. Yes, sir,

. What takes place at the condolence?

A. The Oneida Chief takes charge of the ceremony.

. Who was Hanson Lake?

37 28

THat is, the Wampum Keeper? originated by a man who lived a comparatively few

A. Yes, sir; or, he appoints someone. years ago,

He either takes charge of it personally or de- MR. GREGG: I only know what his answer is

signates a man to take charge of it; is that right? to this question.

A. Yes, sir, ' BY MR, GREGG:

Now, describe the ceremony briefly; how is that i Q. Ask him if he does understand the origin of the

carried ont Long House?

A. After we enter at the Long House, everything is A. I cannot say.

left with the Wampum Keeper. , Q. He cannot say?
Hi
. What is the origin of the Long House; do you know? 7 A. No, sir.
Do you know what the Origin of the Long House is? Q. All right.

A. I think I do. THE COURT: And, if there is no objection,

. And what is it? i will you ask him for my information what the Long

A, It was originated by Hanson Lake. | House is?

About when? MR. GREGG: Yes.

A. I cannot say. : BY MR. CREGG:

Q. What is the Long House?

{
MR. BROWN: Pardon me. You and I both know : A. I cannot say exactly what it is.

he does not understand the question or he wuld not is Q. Well, is that the usual plece where the Indian

answer it that way. The Long House antedated Henson i services are held?

Lake by a hundreds of years and he says now it was A. Yes, sir.

. He may then be deposed?

And that is the building in which they hold their

_ condolences?

A. Yes, siz,

And there ig one on the Onondaga reservation?

A. Yes, sir. ,

Now, can a chief be made in any other way, or I will
put it this way: Is that the only way that a chief
can be made, in the way that you have just described
here now, Andrew?

A. I think so,

And how is a chief deposed on the reservation?

A. How is a chief deposed on the reservation?

I will withdraw that question firet. For whet reason
can a chief be deposed?

A. If he disobeys the wishes of the clan mother.

A. Yes, sir,

. ANG for what other reasons can he be disposed ~ or,

I mean, deposed?

A. If he sells the land. That is one of them.

. How about drunkenness?

A. Drunkenness also removes him, or if he is abusive

to his family.

. And what about his taking on a whiteman's religion?

A. If he becomes a member of the whiteman's religion
also removes him from the office.

Now, before he can be removed from office ig it
necessary for the clan mother to notify him or

warn him and give him a chance to make good?

A. She firet tells him to refrain from those things
and if he still disobeys, well, then, he is deposed,
How many times does she warn him?

A. Three times.

And then after that is he deposed, or how can he be
deposed?

A. He is deposed at the condolence and then someone
else is raised in his place.

And is that the only way he oan be deposed?

A. Yes, sir.

That is, his name must be brought up at a regular
condolence regularly called?

A. Yes, sir.

Now, how is ~- or, first, let me ask you this: The

Onondagas are the Kire Keepers of the Six Nations;
are they not?

A. Yes, sir.

And, as Fire Keepers, they must first be notified
that a condolence - that a chief is to be raised?
A. Yes, sir, and it is done by the olan mother for

the place.

Q.That is, if a chief is to be raised on another

reservation, the clan mother of the particular clan
on that reservation must notify the 4ead Chief of
the Onondagas that she wants to raise a chief; is
that right?

A. Yes, sir.

. AND how is the Head Chief of the Six Nations chosen?

A. After he is made chief, then it must be approved ly
the Six Nations.

That is, he is first selected by the Onondagas to

be Head Chief of the Six Nations, or as a candidate
for Head Chief of the Six Nations?

A. Yes, sir.

And can he be deposed by the Six Nations?

A. If he makes a mistake.

. What do you mean by a "mistake"; does something

displeasing tm the Six Nations?

A. If he follows anything that is not according to
the wishes of the Six Nations and causes any trouble
or disagreements.

Then he can be put out by the Six Nations?

A. YEs, sir.

MR. BROWN: Mr. Hill, pardon me. Didn't he
say if he usurps his authority; wasn't that the
proper meaning of the word?

THE INTERPRETER: I wild ask him,

(DOes so)

THE WITNESS (Through Interpreter): Yes, sir.
MR, CREGG:

Well, usurpation of authority, or does something
displeasing to the Nation?

A. Yes, sir,

. Or the Six Nations?

4. Yes, sir.
George Thomas was at one time Head Chief of the

Six Nations; was he?

A. Yes, sir, he was.

Was there a condolence of the Six Nations held on
the Onondaga Reservation in 19247
i A. I think so.
Q. And when was that; on the eighth day of March?
A. I think it is. I wasn't there at the time.
Q. Well, you did not attend the condolence?
A. No, sir.
MR. BROWN: May we have his evidence with re-
spect to this condolence stricken from the record,
if he did not attend.
THE COURT: It may go out.
BY MR. OREGG:

Q.Well, did you as Head Chief of the Six Nations
notify the Wampum Keeper to fix a date for that
condolence?

THE COURT: As Head Ohief of the Six Nations?
MR, OREGG: Yes.
THE WITNESS; Yes, sir.

BY MR. OREGG:

Q. You did?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. CRIGG: That you may get this, if Your
Honor please, the Head Chief of the Onondagas is
the fellow who notifies the Wampum Keeper to fix
a date for the condolence, and this man was at that
time and is the Head Chief of the Onondagas.

THE COURT: But, as I understood your question
you asked himg if he, as Head Chief of the Six
Nations, did it,

MR, OREGG: Pardon me. I meant Head Chief of
the Onondagas.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

MR. OREGG: And you may Aaeeeon that question,
Mr. Stenographer.

MR. OREGG:

And did the Wampum Keeper fix a date for that con-
dolence?

A. Yes, sir.

And did you notify your three Nations of Indians,
the Onondagas, the Gayugas and the Senecas?

A. It was acoording to the mapRMORNRNE of the

Wampum Keeper to notify these three and I did

according to his instructions.

And pou did notify those three?

A. Yes, sir.

Now, were you present at a condolende held in October
of that same year at the Onondaga reservation?

A. I was not there.

Who do you say is now Head Chief of the Six Nations?
A. According to the clan mothers, young Joshua

Jones is the man in that position.

. How long have you been a chief on the Onondaga

reservation?
A. He said first 1861, and he says afterwards he
didn't know just how long he has been a chief.
Do you claim that Jesse Lyons is a chief?
A. Yes, sir.
When was he made a chief, if you know?
A. I don't know.
MR. BROWN: About.
THE WITNESS: It is not very long ago.
MR. CREGG: It is not what?

THE WITNESS: It is not very long ago.

BY MR. CREGG:

Well, what do you mean by that;can you tell us
within any number of years?

A. I don't know, I cannot sey, but he took the
place of Wilson Rubin.

When did Mrs. Kellogg first come on the Onondaga
reservation?

MR. BROWN: I think I will object to that.

I think if we go into this Kellogg business it is
of no help to us.

MR. CREG®: It is fixing a time and a reason for
the disputes,

MR. BROWN: Are we interested in the reason or
what the reason for the dispute is? I do not think
it is material. .

THE COURT: I will allow it for the purpose of
fixing a time, from which the witness maybe question-
ed,

MR. CREGG: Very well. Go ahead.

THE INTERPRETER: WHat is the question?

(The stenographer repeated the question as

follows;

tQuestion: When did Mrs. Kellogg first come on

the Onondaga reservation?")

THE WITNESS: I cannot say positively just when
put I think it ig just about two years ago when she
first came.

MR, CREGG:

Was there any dispute among the chiefs or the people
on the reservation as to who were the chiefs up to
the time Mrs. Kellogg came?

A. There wasn't any dispute.

And was George Thomas then Head Chief of the Six
Nations?

A. Yes, sir.

And you were Head Chief of the Onondegas?

A. Yes, sir.

. And did some of the people on the reservation favor

Mre. Kellogg and were some of them against her?

MR. BROWN: I object to that as irrelevant and
immaterial.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. CREGG: An exception,

BY MR. CREGG:

Was there a time when a complaint was made in
reference to George Thomas as Head Chief of the

Six Nations?

A. At the time that this Mrs. Kellogg came the coun-
cil was called, at which time there was this matter
about signing was brought up and I advised George
Thomas not to sign.

What happened then?

A. We did not understand as to the purpose of people
giving. I therefore went to George Thomas and told
him not to sign.

What was done at that time, if anything, in reference
to deposing George Thomas as Head Chief?

MR. BROWN: Well, I object to it unless he
knows. It already appears that he was not at this
condolence where this alleged deposition took place,
as I understand,

MR.CREGG: Well, I do not want him to tell
anything he does not know, unless he was there

and present,

Ask him if he knows.

THE INTERPRETER: Will you repeat that question?
(The stenographer repeated the question as
follows:
“Question: What was done at that time, if any-
thing, in reference to deposing George Thomas

as Head Chief?")

BY MR. OREGG:

Q. Tell what you know about it; tell what you know

in reference to any action that was taken towards
deposing George Thomas ad Head Chief of the Six
Nations? :

wR, BROWN: Well, if tle Court please, in
view of the limited knowledge of this witness of
English, I would like to have him tell what he actu-
ally saw and observed himself.

THE COURT: And heard,

MR. BROWN: Yes, and heard,

THE COURT:Repeat the question.

(The stenographer repeated the question as

follows:

"Question; Tell what you know about it; tell

what you know in reference to any action that

was taken towards deposing George Thomas as

Head Chief of the Six Nations?")

THE WITNESS: There wasn't anything said about
that at that time.

BY MR, CREGG:

Q. Well, was there anything said or done about it after

that?
MR. BROWN: In your presence?
THE WITNESS: ABout the second time of the
council, that George Thomas signed thepaper.
BY MR. OREGG:
Q. That is, Mrs. Kellogg's paper?
A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Ask him if he was present at that
tine?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir,
BY MR. OREGG:

And was that a meeting of the Onondaga couicil?

A. Yes, sir,

Q. Now, what was said and done there at that time in
your presence?
A. At that time she had this contract and it was
presented in the council ---
MR. BROWN (Interrupting): Just a minute, Mr.
Hill. I move to strike out any evidence about any
contract, as not responsive and irrelevant as 1
material.
MR. OREGG: I think it is relevant here.
THE COURT: Well, he might say at this time
he had a paper and not designate it as a contract.
MR, OREGG: ALL right. Let him answer it that
way.
THE WITNESS: Well, she had this paper and
it was presented before the council and the council
did not agree as to the stipulation and it was
adjourned without them taking any action.
BY MR. OREGG:
Q. Well, is that the --~
A. (Interrupting) This was the second council, the

second time.

. The second council meeting, is that the time

George Thomas signed it?

A. It was at that time when I heard that he had

" signed it,

MR. BROWN: Well, may that be stricken out as
not responsive and hearsay.

THE COURT: I will let it stand.

MR. BROWN: Exception.
MR. CREGG:
Did he say - or, what eke was said and done at that
council?
A. I cannot exactly repeat all what happened at the
time; there was so much confusion at the time.
Was there anything said or done there at that time
in reference to deposing George Thomas as Head
Chief of the Six Nations?
A, There was nothing said about him being deposed.
At that time?

A. No, sir.

. Now, let me ask you right here: Does the Head Chief

of the Six Nations, by reason of his office, have a

voice in the Onondaga council?

A. Yes, sir, he has a voice.

. That is, he has a vote in the council the same as

the chiefs of the Onondagas?

A. Yes, sir.

Now, after that meeting, when you heard that George
Thomas had signed these papers, or this paper of Mrs.
Kellogg, what next was done in reference to George
Thomas?

A, The council held after that, that they had there,
when @édrge Thomas made the statement that he would
have his own way about the matter in spite of the
other chiefs and exercise the power in spite of their
wishes,

And was that at @ regular meeting of the Onondaga
council?

A. Yes, sir, it was,

And you were there?

A. Yes, sir,

. And tell us all that was sazd and done there at

that time?

A. It was at that time that I realized that there

would be a division among the chiefs,
And affter that what was done with reference to de-
posing George Thomas?

MR. BROWN: That he observed and saw.

MR. CRHGG:

. Yes. That you saw and heard?

A. After this this Mrs. Lyons, Mrs. Phoebe Lyons came
to me and she is the clan mother, and said that
George Thomas had violated the wishes of the clan

and that she was going to see that he was deposed.

. What was done after that?

A, She said to me that the action that he had taken
meant as much that he had deposed himself in the
position that he held by working against the wishes

of the clan.

. Was there a meeting of the Onondaga chiefs after

that?
A. No, sir.
There was a condolence of the chiefs of the Six

Nations heldafter that; was there not?

A. It was quite a long time after this happened before

the condolence was hend and I was not there.

That is the condolence that was held in March,
1924, that you said you asked the Wampum Keeper
to fix a date for?

A. It was at that time.

. Were you at the condolence when Joshua Jones, or
young Joshua Jones was made Head Ghief of the Six
Nations?

A. Yes, sir.

Where was that held?

A. At the Long House.

On the Onondaga Reservation?

A, Yes, sir.

Do you remember about how long that was after the

condolence at which you claim George Thomas was
deposed?

A. I cannot say exactly how long it was afterwards.
Well,was it during the same year or the same summer?
A. I cannot say positively.

And did you ask the Wampum Keeper to fix a date for
that condolence?

A. Yes, sir,

bes tleaniie a i 2

. And after he fixed the date did you notify the

Onondagas, the Oayugas and the Senecas?

A. Yes, sir.

. What took place at that condolence?

MR. BROWN: May we firet inquire whether he was
present or not?
MR. CREGG: He said he was.

MR. BROWN: No, I don't think he did,

BY MR.. OREGG:

Q.Were you present at this condolence?

A. Yes, sir.

Now, tell us what took place there in reference to
Joshusw Jones’ I will waive that question. Let me
ask you this: Do you remember what other nations
were represented at that condolence besides the
Onondagas?

A. I beg your pardon, I did not hear that,

- Do you remember what other nations were represented

at that condolence besides the Onondagas?
A. I cannot say exactly who they were that were there,

or what nations were there.

. Do you remeibér witether or not Walter Kennedy of the

Senecas was there?

A, Well, I don't think he was at this condolence.

. Well, was that a meeting of the Onondaga chiefs, or

of the Six Nations that he is talking about now?
A, I can't remember.
WHioh it was?

A. No, sir,

- Well, what took place there?

A. I cannot understand exactly what you mean.
Well, what took place in reference to Joshua Jones
at that time, or George Thomas?
A. DO you mean condolence or council?
At the meeting on the reservation that he is now
talking about?
A. All that wes todd to me by the clan mother was
that they would have to have another nominee for the
place.
I see.

THE COURT: Have you any objection to putting
into the record how the chief of the Six Nations is

chosent I think Mr. Brown stated it in his opening.

438

MR. OCREGG: Well, I think this witness was there

at that time, but I will ask him to save time.

BY MR. OREGG:

Q.The Ohief of the Six Nations must be an Onondaga

Indian; is that right?

A. Yes, sir,

And he is first selected by the chiefs of the Ononda~
ga reservation for Head Chief; is he not?

A. The mother of the olan makes the nomination for
this place. We don't nominate. The first nomination
was done or proposed by Bliza Green and it was her
s80n that she wanted to become the head chief,

What is his namet

A. I don't know what the name igs. I did not finish

hie statement,

- All right. Go ahead.

4. And the chiefs considered his nomination and

and did not ppprove and George Thomas was also pro-
posed, and being of the Mel clan, and so Mrs. Phoebe
Lyons was the clan mother for George Thomas, and he
was approved, his nomination was approved by the

council,

That is when he was first made chief, Head Chief?
A. No. That was when he was -~~

MR. BROWN (Interrupting): No, ask him, Mr.
Hill, and please do not give any testimony yourself.

THE WITNESS: That was the time when they agreed
on his nomination,

MR. CREGG: I see.

THE COURT: Must the Head Chief of the Six
Nations be chosen from none the Onondaga Chiefs?

THE WITNESS: No, according to the clan.

THE COURT: You need not take this on the record,
but what I want to find out is whether any Onondaga
Indian is eligible for the position of Chief of the
Six Nations, or whether the chief must be selected
from among the Onondaga chiefs.

MR, OREGG:

Do you understand! the court's suggestion: Did you

take the court's remarks? The substance of it is:

CAn the Six Nations in regular condolence assembied
selecte any Onondagan for the Head Chief of the Six
Nations, or must he first be selected by the

Onondaga chiefs, or proposed by the Onondaga chiefs

and approved by the Six Nations?
A. All the Six Nations have to do is to approve of
the nomination,

Q. I see. So that a chief is firet selected for that
office by the chiefs of the Onondagas?

A. All they have to do is to approve the momination,

THE COURT: Now, just one other question. Must.

the person selected by the Onondaga chiefs be one of
their ownnumber, or can that person be any Onondaga

male Indian?

THE WITNESS: It does not matter whether he is

one of their own number, but he must be an Onondagan,

BY MR. CREGG:
who
Q. And/do you say are the chiefs of the Onondaga
reservation today?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Well, firet, you are a chief yourself?
A. Yes, sir, I think so.
Q. And he sgys he cannot aay as to the others?
A. He cannot say, yes, sir.
Q. Now, were you present when Joshua Jones was selected

for Head Chief?

A. I think so.

'
I
i
|

And where was that?

A. It was here at Onondaga,

. And was that at a meeting of the chiefs of the

Onondegas?

A. I cannot understand you,

- Well, where was he selected; who selected him?

A. Well,he was appointed by Phoebe Lions and approved
by the Onondaga chiefs.
You were presenti at that time; you were there?

A. Yes, sir.

. And what was done with George Thomas before that;

cal you tell us whether or not he was deposed; do
you know?

MR. BROWN: I object to that. It already appears
he does not know. He was not present at any time
when any ceremonies were taken in that connection.
MR. OREGG:

I will put it this way: You understood he had been
deposed at that time?

MR. BROWN: I object to that as irrelevant and
immaterial.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. CREGG: Anéxception.

BM MR. OREGG:

Now, after the Onondaga chiefs approved Joshua Jones!
selection by Phoebe Lyons, the clan mother, what

was done after that?

A, I cannot remember just what happened.

Well, after that did you ask the Wampum Keeper to
fix a date for the condolence? ,

A. I was - or, I went to the Wampum Keeper and I
told him of the approval of the nomination.

And did the Wampum Keeper fix a date for the condo~
len ce?

A. Yes, sir.

And did you notify your three nations, the Onondagas,
the Senecas and the Cayugas?

A. When he set the date then I notified these

tribes. .

But, as I understand it, you do not regallbeing
present at that condolence?

A. I cannot say positively whether I was there,

Or not?
A. Or not,
IT see.

MR. OREGG: I think you may cross~e mmine
now, unless I have something later.

MR. BROWN: All right.

CROSS EXAMINATION
MR. BROWN:
How long wail George Thomas Head Chief of the Six
Nations, Mr. Gibson?
A.I cannot say just how many years, but it was
some time.
And is the principal chief of the Onondaga nation
the assistant to the Head Chief of theSix Nations?
A. Yes, sir,
And you and he worked together in those positions
for some years; didn't you?
A. Yes, sir, I think so.
Now, is the position of Head Chief of the Six
nations hereditary with any particular clan?
A. It has been that way.
Well, with what clan?

A. Bel clan.

How long has it been with the Hel olan?
A. I cannot say just how long.

Well, now, Eliza Green never was a member of the

Hel clan; was shef

A. I cannot say what she is.

What is that?

A. I cannot gay what she is,

Well, you know she never was a member of the Hel clan
don't you?

4. I don't know what her clan is.

Well, she was at no time the condolence mother

of the Hel clan; was she?

A. I don't think so, :
No, Well, at the time George Thomas was mdde Mead
Chief she wanted her son, a member of her clan, made
Head Chief; didn't she?

A. Yes, sir,

Well, now, the Head Chief of the Six Nations is

first nominated by the Onondaga couneil; isn't het

A. They have to approve him first for the office.

And after he is nominated by the council he is

ratified by the condolence of the waole Six Nations;

is he not?
A. Yes, sir,

Q. And it is a fact that, according to the customs and
usages of the Six Nations that he cannot be disposed
or deposed by any mother of any clan; isn't that
true?

A. It is the clan mother who has to Bay as to his
deposition.

Q. Well ,have you ever been present when any Head Chief
of the Six Nations has been deposed?

A. I never was there.

Q. Well, then, your knowledge of the method of making
or deposing a chief, a Head Chief, has only to do
with your recent attempts with respect to Goerge
Thomas and Joshua Jones?

A, That is all, .
Q. Now, do you know George Van Avery?
A. Yes, sir, ,

Q. Is he a chief of the Onondaga nation?
A. He has been twice made chief,

Q. And how long has he served as chief?

A. I cannot say; I can't say just how long; he was

once deposed.

Now, you yourself never voted for the deposing of
George Thomas?
A. I have no right to say that the Chief is to be
deposed,
Now, did George Van Avery ever vote for the
deposition of George Thomas?

MR. OREGG: Of course, if he knows.

THE COURT: He may answer if he knows.
MR. BROWN:
Do you know whether or not George Van Avery ever
voted for the deposition of George Thomas?
A, I don't know as he would have anything to say
about that, and I know that he has not attended

a good many of these meetings,

. Well, you know that he still claims that George

Thomas is Head Chief; don't you?

MR, OREGG: I object to that as immaterial
and improper cross-examination, what anybody else
claims, and wasting the time of the court.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. CREGG: An exception.

BY MR. BROWN:
Q. You know that he still claims that George Thomas
is Head Chief; don't you?
A. That is the way I understand.
Q. Is Frank Isaacs a chief?
A. I cannot say that he is a chief.
Q. Has he ever been @ chief?
A. Never before.
Q. Before what?
A. I never heard that he was a chief.
Q. Is George Crowe a chief?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know that George Crowe claims that
George Thomas is Head Chief of the Six Nations
THR COURT: Well, I don't thinkwe petter go
into this. You oan show that by petter evidence.
MR. BROWN; All right.
BY MR, BROWN:
Q. Now, on direct examination, Mr. Gibson, why did you
say in response to the question, if Joshua Jones

was Head Chief, that the condolence mothers claimed

that he was; why did you say that?

A. I canét understand,

Q. Well, just what do you mean by that; that you do
not understand the question? ,
A. Yes, I don't understand the question.
Q. Well, did you say that the condolence mothers
Claimed that Joshua Jones ws the Head Chief?
A. Yes, sir, I think so.
Q. Well, what do you mean by that?
A. She was the one that I said that proposed him
for the place.
Q. Now, you said there was some dispute arose over a
peper that Mrs, Kellogg had,mi is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you signed that paper, yourself, didn't you,
Mr. Gibson, at one time?
A. I don't know whether I ever Signed it or not, but
I was told by my’ clan mothers to sign it.
Q. I see. Now, how long has Adam Thomas held this
position that you claim that he has of Wampum Keeper?
A. I can't say just how many years, :

Q. He is a Stockbridge Indian; isn't he?

A, I cannot say that he is.
Q. Well, do you know whether he is or not?
A. I cannot say that he is,

And where does he reside?

A. onondaga reservation.

Q. And how long has he resided on the Onondaga reserva-
tion?
A. Ever since he was born.

Q. Well, now, has he ever exercised this right which you
claim he has of fixing the dates of condolences up
to and prior to the ace Be 19337
A. I think so.

Q. Well, do you know anpthing about it?

A. Yes.

Q.Do you know of any condolence being held during the
i time that you have been chief that was not called by
Adam Thomas?
A.Yes, sir,
Q. Now, ---
MR. CREGG (Interrupting): I think right there
we ought tohave that question clear. I don't under-

stand what that answer means.

MR. BROWN: Well, he said "yes", I thought it
was clear enough. I am perfectly willing he should
have it answered again.

MR. OREGG: I think it should be followed up
and find out who else fixes a date for condolences,

except Adam Thomas,

bo MR. BROWN: I am about to, but not in those

words.

MR. CREGG: I don't know as I have a right to
break in this way,but I think it would be a good
thing to do to clear up the record as we go along.

THE COURT: All right. We are taking it more
or less informally.

MR. BROWN:

Now, tow would you fix a date for a condolence if
Adam Thomas refused to do it?

A,It is not according to oustom; they cannot have

any condolence,

Q.Well, suppose Adam Thomas was out of the country for

a year; how would you hold one; how would you get

a date?

A. It could be left with the other mem bers of that

tribe.

. And where are the members of the Oneida tribe,

as a matter of fact?

A. They are also living on the reservation,

. Well, as a matter of fact, there are two families

of them still living at the Oneida reservation in

the city of Oneida, aren't there?

A, I don't know of any families.

Well,isn't it a fact that most of the Oneida

nation are situated either in Canada or Wisconsint

_A. No, sir.

Well, are there any oneidas in Canada?

A. Yes, there are some.

Are there any Oneidas in Wisconsin?

A. I don't know.

Well, now, suppose that you, as principal chief of
the Onondaga nation, refused to call a condolence,

how would they have one?

A. It is not my duty; it is decided by the council.

That is, they can hold a condolence withoyt you
or without Adam Thomas doing anything and have it

perfectly legal; can't they.?

A. No, sir.
Well, how would they hold a condolence if you were
dead ?

MR. OREGG: Well, I submit that is self-evident.
If he were dead he wouldn't have anything to do with |
it.

MR. BROWN: But he is talking here about usages
and customs and laws and now let us find out,

MR. CREGG: I suppose they would select another
Head Chief.

MR. BROWN: Well, you say they cannot hold
one unlesshe has something to do with it.

MR. CREGG: No. I said the Onondaga chiefs

select their own chief,

MR. BROWN: No, the evidence is, as I recall
it, that the question of the selection of a Head
Chief comes up at the condolence of the Six
Nations,

THE COURT: Well, perhaps you might word the
question a little more diplomatically.

MR. CREGG: And also a little more intelligently.

MR. BROWN: Very well,

BY MR. BROWN:

Q. Well, now, Mr. Gibson, suppose you were unable to
do any act in connection with one of these condo~
lences, how would they hold it?

A. I have no rkght to superintend it.

Q. Well, do you have any duty with respeot to calling

one as Principal Chief of the Onondagas?

A, When the nomination is made by the olan mother

and is presented to me, I likewise notify the council

to meet, at which approval is made.
Q. Suppose you are unable to do that; how will they

proceed?

A. The clan mother decides and I call for the approval

of the nomination.
Q. Well, suppose you are unable to do anything about
it; how do they go ahead then?

A. They will have someone else enlisted to act in

my position,
Q. Then there is Someone élse who can act in your

position, if there is an occasion which demands it;

is that so?
A. Yes, sir,
MR. CREGG: And right there let me ask who

names the person to act?

THE WITNHSS: It is the clan mother who has to

Say who,
MR. BROWN:
Now, you say that there was a condolence in 1924
that had to do with George Thomas? Just answer
"yes" or "no",if you please?
A. I cannot say. ,

THE COURT: Mr. Brown, we will suspend here
until two o'clock this afternoon. The Court will

take a recess until two o'clock,

* ee OK Ok OK
(At 18:30 P, M., @ recess was taken until

2:00 P. M., same date and place.)

eR OR

AFTERNOON SHSSTION,
SYRACUSE , NEW YORK, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 29, 1928,
3:00 P.M,
PRESIDING:
HONORABLE FREDERICK H. BRYANT,
FEDERAL JUDGE.
APPEARANCES;
(Same as before.)

ANDREW GIBSON,

resumed the stand as a witness on behalf of the

defendants, testified as follows (through interpre-

ter):
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY MR. BROWN:

Q. Now, Mr. Gibson, when the Onondaga Council come to
a decision on the question of who shall be the Head
Chief, how many votes does it take to come +6 that
decision?

A.The majority vote present.

Q.That is, a majority of the chiefs present have to

agree upon the candidate, whoever he is?

A. Yes, sir,

Isa vote of all the chiefs required in any case?
A, Just the majority present.

And how many votes does it require when this
chief is removed?

A. I don't know,

+ Now, you spoke this morning of having called a

condolence in the summer of 1924; do you remember
that?

A. No, sir,

- Well, do you remember calling any condolence in

19247

A. Yes, sir.

. And did you say that you called both of those

condolences to meet at the Onondaga reservation?
A. I don't know. ,
DO you know where you did call those condolences
to meet?
MR. OREGG: I object to that as assuming facte

not proven, and the facts as proven are that he does

not fix the date or place for condolence. All
he does is to announce that condolences should be
called,

MR. BROWN: As I umerstood your testimony he
also notified those who shall be present to attend.

MR. OREGG: After the date and place have been
fixed. ;

THE COURT: I do not understand that he called
it, that is as to date and place. He notified a
certain number of nations ~-—

MR. BROWN (Interrupting): That is what I am

trying to find out,

BY MR. BROWN:

Q. What I am trying to find out is, did you notify

any chiefs to attend any condolences in 19247

A. Yes, sir,

Q.And what chiefs did you notify to attend?

A. The Onondagas, Senecas and Cayugas,

And did you notify 411 the chiefs of the Onondagas?

A. Yes, sir,

Q. And what chbefs did you notify of the Senecas?

4. Thomas Jones,

Well, as a matter of fact, the Senecas at that
time didn't have any chiefs at all; did they?
A, He didn't notify the Cattaraugus Indians, but

the Tonawanda Indians,

. Now, where did you notify these chiefs to come for

these two condolences?

A. I don't remember where.

- Did you notify the cheifs that you knew were

fttendly to George Thomas to be at either or both
of these condolences?
A. Yes, sir,

MR. BROWN: I think that is all,

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. CREGG:
Do you remember when George Thomas was first made
Head Chief?
A. I can't fully say that I remember,
Were you present when he was made Head Chief?
A. Yes, sir. ,

And do you remember the question came up at that

time in reference to whether George Thomas had
adopted the white man's religion?

A. I don't know,

When Mrs, Kellogg first came to the reservation did
she talk &bout making some research work of some
kind?

A. It seems to me they did.

And was that the paper that the clan mothers asked
you to sign?

A. Yes, sir,

The Onondaga Indians, some of them reside on other
reservations; do they not?

A. Yes, sir. ,

And there are a great number of Oneida Indians
residing on the Onondaga reservation?

A. Yes, sir, ,

Now, how is the Head Chief of the Onondagas chosen?
A. The man who is chosen who is in sympathy with

the public,

; But, is he chosen by the other members of the council

to be Head Chief?
A. No, but he is appointed by the clan mother,

MR. CREGG: That is all.

REOROSS HXAMINATION
BY MR. BROWN: ;
Q. Well, is the office of Head Chief of the Onondaga
nation hereditary in some clan?

A. I cannot say.

Q. Mr, Thomas has called my attention to the fact that

you did not interpret "the Onondaga nation",
rather the six nations; my question was whether
the Head Chief of the Onondagas was hereditary?
A. Oh, the Onondagas?

Q. YES. You ask him that, please.
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And with what clan is the Head Chief of the Onon-
dagas hereditary?
A. I can't say whioh,

Q. Well, what clan are you a member of?
A. The Beaver clan.

Q. What?
A. Beaver clan.

Q. Who was Head Chief of the Onondagas before you

claim to have become Head Chief?

condolence at which the question of deposing

A. I don't remember the name, of you as chief was brought up, during this last

Q.Do you know of what clen he was a member? year, since we tried this last law suit?

A. He was of Beaver olan. A. No, sir.

Q. He was of the Beaver olan? . Has anybody ever toldyou that you had been

A. Yes, sir. deposed as chiefi

Q. Who is the present condolence mother of your clan, wR, oxmea: I object to that as incomoetent

the Beaver clan? and immaterial,

A. My clan mother is deceased. THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Well, isn't Polly Isaacs your clan mother? MR, OREGG: An exception,

A. No, sir, THE WITNESS: No, sir.

{
i
Q. Is she a member of the Beaver clan? ; MR, BROWN: That is all.

A, She is a Beaver clan, but she has no right to WR. OREGG: That is all,

appoint. I will callmr. Fellows,

Who has the right to appoint in the Beaver clan now?

A. Martha Brown,
EVAN FELLOWS,

Q. And where does she get that right? ; i
A. She is the oldest clan mother of the clan, 7 called as a witness on behalf of the defendants and
Q. Well, has Polly Ieascs ever admonished you as to : | being duly sworn, testified as follows:
your duties as a chief? DIRECT ® XAMINATION
A. No, sir _ BY WR. ORBGC:
. ’ . i
Q. Don't you know that you were notified to attend a Q. Mr. Fellows, you reside in the Town of Onondaga,

near the Onondaga Indian

Reservation?

A. Yes, sir.

And how fer is that from the Indian reservation line
where you reside, the nearest boundary line?

A. A mile and a half.

. And about how far are you from the council house?

A. Two miles and a half.

Was your father at one time Indian Agent for the
Onondaga Nation?

A. No, sir; my father-in-law.

Your father-in-law was?

A. Yes, gir.

. Woat was his name?

A, Oliver Nichols.

And do you recall about when it was that he was
Agent?

A. I think he was Agent several years, from 1907

to 1913. ;

And during that time were you more or less familiar
with the general. customs of how theydid business

on the reservation?

A. Yes, sir.

. And were you more or less acquainted with the chiefs

on the reservation during that time?
A. I knew them all,

Now, later did you become Agent for the Onondaga

. Indians yourself?

A. Yes, sir,

. And when was that?

A. I was appointedby Governor Whitman in 1915,
1916, 1917 and 1918, the four years of his adminis-
trations, as Indian Agent.

And then when Governor Smith came in office you
went out?

A. I stepped out.

And when Miller went in you stepped back in?

A. Yes, sir.

And the last time that you were Indian Agent was
in 1921 and 1982 during the Miller administration?
A. Yes, sir,

Now, what have you observed during your experience
as Onondaga Indian Agent as to whether or not the

Indians have adopted the Indian Law of the State of

New York as one of their laws and customs?

MR. BROWN: I object to that as improper,
the witnese not shown competent. I think Mr. Cregg
has the cart before the horse.

Now, the Indian Lew of the State of New York,
as I understand it, is declaratory of some of the
actual usages and customs of the Indian nation.

MR, CREGG: Well, if you will concede that it
it is declaratory of all ---

MR. BROWN (Interrupting): Not all.

MR, CREGG: Well, perhaps not all, but if all
parts of the law itself are declaratory of certain
customs of the reservation, I wan't ask this witness
anyfarther on that subject. Do you concede that?

MR. BROWN: No, sir.

THE COURT: Just repeat the question.

(The stenographer repeated the question as

follows:

"Question: Now, what have you observed during

your experience as Onondaga Indian Agent as to

whether or not the Indians have adopted the

Indian Law of the State of New York as one

of their laws and customs?" )

MR. BROWN: I do not see what his observation
has to do withfixing the force and effect of this
law.

MR. OREGG: My purpose is to show that the
Indians have adopted this law as one of their laws
and customs and rules and regulations on the reser-
vation.

MR. BROWN: I do not see how that has any
probative force, because somebody obeys it does
not give it any more froce and because anybody
disobeys it does not give it any less force.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. ‘The customs
and usmages may be competent, but I do not see why
the witness shouldbe allowed to express his opinion
on such a proposition.

MR. CREGG: An exception,

MR. OCREGG:
Do you hold any office in the town of Onondaga?

A, Yes, sir,

“Q. What is it?

A, Justice of the peace,

. And have been for how long?

A. Twenty~two years.

. Now, as Onondaga Indian Agent, what are your duties?

MR. BROWN: I object to that as incompetent.
His duties are specified by statute and can neither
be enlarged nor shortened by any evidence that
this witness may give.

THE COURT; Overruled.

MR. BROWN: An exception.

THE WITNESS: What is it?
MR. CREGG:
Will you tell us in a general way what your duties
as Onondaga Indian Agent are?
A. Oh, well, the statute of the State of New York
says that the Indian Agent's duties are to write
leases or approve of them, write and approve leases,
distribute the annuities and settle any disputes
which may arise between the Indians residing upon

the Indian reservation.

And while you were Indian Agent off the Onondaga

Indians, did you settle disputes on the reservation?
A. Yes, sir.

And did the Indians accept your settlement of those
disputes as final?

MR. BROWN: Well, I object to that as a conclus
ion and too generally, and the fact that one Indian
did does not bind all the rest of the members of this
tribe.

MAE COURT: It does call for a conclusion.

MR. CREGG: Of course, I can go into it in
detail and probably stay here all day.

THE COURT: I will sustain it in that form.

MR. CREGG:

Did the Indians involved in these various disputes
which took place on the reservation while you were
there abide by your decision of those disputes?

MR. BROWN: Now, I make the same objection,
calling for a conclusion and irrelevant and immaterial,

MR. OREGG:

. Did theymake any complaint after you settled these

disputes?

MR. BROWN: Same objection,
THE COURT: Objection overruled.
MR. BROWN: An exception.

MR. OREGG:

. Go ahead and answer?

A. Why, not any more than anybody would that lost
a decision.

All right. Well, now, did they abide by your
decision?

A. Yes, sir,

And in all cases?

A. I think so.

And has that been the custom and practice upon the
reservation so long as you can remember having had

anything to do with it?

MR. BROWN: Well, I object to that as incompetent

and calling for a conclusion.
THE COURT; Overruled.
MR. BROWN: An exception.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

BY MR. CREGG:

Now, during the time you were Indian Agent did there
ever any occasion arise as to who were or were not
chiefs of the reservation?

A. No, sir. ,

There was always peace and harmony in that respect?
4.Yes, sir,

And at one time was there a Frank Logan Head Chief
of the ----

A. (Interrupting) Yes, sir.

(Continuing) --~ of the Onondagas?

A. Yes, sir.

. And during your time was George Thomas made Head

Chief of the Six Nations?
A. I think so, I think it was - well, you have not

asked me that, but shall I tell when I think it

was?

Yes, surely?

A. I think it was the latter part of 1917 or the
very fore part of 1918, but I think 1917 is right.

Do you recall at that time that before George was
made Head Chief of the six Nations, whether or not he

had adopted the whiteman's religion?

E22

A, No, sir, I don't know anything about that.

You don't know anything about that?

A, No, sir, I did not.
You went out of office early in 1983; was it in
May, 19837 ,
A. Yes, sir,
And up to that time, so far as you know, Mrs.
Kellogg had not visited the reservation?
A, I had never heard of her.
Now, are you able to tell me, Mr. Fellows, who the
chiefs on the reservation were when you went out
of office in 19237

MR. BROWN: Well, I object to that as hearsay
and necessarily so,

THE COURT: He may answer, if he knows.
MR. OREGG:
Do you know?
A. I know some of them,
All right. Give us the names of those who you know
to have been chiefs at that time?
A. Andrew Gibson, Frank Isaacs, George Van Every.

Junior or Senior?

A. Senior.

Yes,

A. Joshua Jones, Emmett Lyons, Howard Hill. I know
them all, but I cannot think of their names.

What is it?

A. I know all the men but I cannot think of or
recall all their names, because it has been so long
since I have had anything to do with it, and I
don't believe I can name any more. George Thomas
was Chief of the Six Nations.

And could you recall the names if I mentioned them
to yout

A. Yes, sir, I could.

Tell me whether or not John White was chief at

that time?

A. He was.

How about George Crowe?

A. Yes.

Charles Green?

A.Yes, sir,

And was George Van Every, Junior, a chief then, or

don't you know?

A. I couldn't say; I hardly think so,
Q. And how about James Lyons?

A. Yes,he was a chief,
Q. And William Webster?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. ANG WilsonJohnson?

A. Both Senior and Junior.

Q. Both chiefs?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What office, if any, did Jesse Lyon hola?

A, Well, he was one of what they called sub-chiefe,

And marshal on the reservation.

Q. And the marshal of the reservation, as you under-
(stand it, was appointed by the council of chiefs?
A. Yes, sir,

Q. Do you recall whether or not Rubin Jones was
a sub-chief?

A. He was.

Q.O0Gias Schenandoah?
A. Yes, sir,

Q. DAvis Green was also a sub-chief?

A. Yes, sir,
How about Newton Green?
A. I think he was; I am not positive, but I think

60.

. And George Webster?

A. Yes, sir,
And was Ward Schenandoah?

A. Yes, sir.

. And Kennedy?

A, Albert Kennedy.

+ And do you recall any of the other chiefs at that

time?

A. I do not.

. Have you observed more or thm less the disturbance

on the reservation since 1924 and up to the present
time?

A. I have,

- And as a man outside of the reservation at present,

but familiar with the usages and customs, would you
make any suggestion as to how this matter might be

handled or settled?

MR. BROWN: That is objectionable, but I would
be glad to hear his opinion, because that is all I
think it is.

THE COURT: You make no objection?

MR. BROWN: No objection to hearing this man's
‘opinion,

THE WITNESS: Well, while I am not as famtliar
-with the Indian trouble as I might be perhaps, but
as I understand there is quite a large amount of
money on deposit which is held back by an injunction
issued by a federal judge, and, of course, the
Indiane have property down there that the nation
owns and the nation owns considerable land and they
have charge of the buildings that the nation owns,
and the repairs which are to be kept up. It seems
to me that - I wouldn't want to attempt to decide
this. case for the court, of course,

BY MR. CREGG:
Q. You are not going to, Mr. Fellows,

A. It seems to me the Agent ought to have charge

of this money and be placed unier bond, which he is

now for the payment of annuity money,and I have

talked with the present Agent about these things
several times and it seems to me that it would

cost about seven hundred and fifty dollars a year to
keep their buildings up and bridges as they should
be down there, atid after that that the money be
distributed among them the same as the annuity is
paid, and I think if some such thing as that could
be done it would help. Now, if either side should
be established as the regular chiefs there today and
turn over two or three thousand dollars to the
treasurer of the Indians council, it is a good deal
of money to be kept in the house and they will not |
deposit it. They want to keep their money and use
it as they are a mind to, and they are afraid of
banks, and it seems as though the Indians could

be protected in a better way and their money be

made of better use of if something like that were
done. Now, of course, that is the law of the nation,
Now, when I was Indian Agent I did not pay much
attention to any law except the nation's law, that

is, the Onondaga reservation law, and if you have

four or five hundred dollars in your hands that

belong to the nation and the council directs the
agent that that money be paid over to their treasur-
er, you have got to do it and there is no getting
around it and as the present agent knows, any Indian
Agent that does not recognize the law of the Onondaga
Reservation as final is in hot water all the time
and perhaps that is why the water has got so warm

at the present time.

Is there any means of making the treasurer of the
Onondaga Reservation at the present time account

for any of the moneys that may come into his hands?
A. No, sir, there is no way to make him account for
it. ,

And there is no law or custom of the reservation
that you know of that directs how that money shall
be spent?

A. Only the council.

Only the council of chiefs?

A,Yes, sir,

Only the council of chiefs assembled and they pass

@ resolution as to how it shall be spent?

A. Yes, sir.

And is it your idea that those moneys, whatever

they maybe, should be distributed the same as moneys
received from the United States government or the
State of New York? ;

A. Over and above what they have that is sufficient
to take care of their buildings and bridges and
highways, and look after them and keep them up.

Yes?

A. And look after the indigent poor and bury the dead.
A certain amount should be set aside for the aainte-_
nance of the reservation and the care of the poor?
A, I think so.

And you think seven hundred and fifty dollars would
be sufficient for that purpose?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

And is it your idea that if there was not any money
to fight about there, there would not be so much
agitation on the reservation?

A. There would not be any.

Yes,

MR, OREGG: I make the suggestion that we etipu-

late that the methods suggested by Mr. Fellows be---

MR, BROWN (Interrupting): As long as the
counsel's suggewtion is going on the record, I
would like to say that I refuse to do that, and I
say further it is a very poor one, as long as we
are making a record of it.

THE COURT: May I ask this, Mr. Cregg: Is it
your contention that the law of the State of New
York has been adopted by the Onondaga Indians and
they are thereby bound by itt

MR. ORHGG: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: And one of the powers given to
an Indian Agent by the State law is to settle all
disputes arising among the Inéians?

MR, OREGG: That is as I understand it.

THE COURT: And then, when you prove your con-
tention, if you do, haven't you about ended this
litigation, so far as I am concerned?

MR, CREGG: Well, probably that is so, but I
think it is up to the Court to find, if the dourt

should so find that we have successfully proved that,

then I think it is up to the court to make findings
along that line and try and settle this grouble.

We did not come into this court in the first in-
stance; we constantly filed objections and maintained
that the court had no authority, until we finally
got in so far that we could not get out without
worse complications, and I thinkalong that line I
will ask one or two more questions.

MR. CREGG:

In reference to the lease of land on the reservation,
were all of those leases approved by you during the
time that you were Indian Agent?

A. Yes, sir.

- And do you recall during that time of having made

any leases for George Thomas?

A. I think not; still I may have, but I hardly
think so.

You hardly think so?

A. No, sir, I do not think so.

And, in fact, allcontracts made between the Indians

and white people were always approved by the Indian

Agent during the time that you were there?

A. Yes, sir.

And the Indians accepted the annuities from the
State of New York during that time?

A. Yes, sir.

. And they abided by your decisions in reference to

their disputes whenever they came to you?
A. Yes, sir,

MR. CREGG: I think that is all.

OROSS EXAMINATION
MR. BROWN:
Well, Mr. Fellows, there isn't any question but
what no white personcould gain any rights on the
reservation by lease or otherwise, except with the
approval of the Indian Agent; that is a fact
and that is the law; isn't it?
A, Yes, sir.
I guess there is no disagreement about that. But

the Indians did have the right and did without your

intervention deal between themselves; didn't they?

A. Oh, certainly.

Q.Well, not only in the matter of leases, but some-"
times in the transfer of lands and matters of
that kind?

A. Yes, sir,

Q. Well, you never at any time had anything to do with
the distribution of any Indian lands by descent;
did yout
A. No - well, yes, there were times that there have
been disputes over them and they have been threshed
out before the agent,

Q. Well, was that an ordinary proceeding for you to
be in on the dead feast proceedings and their results?
A. No, sir. I never went down there and mixed in
at all, but sometimes a misunderstanding and didn't

just agree over it; that is all.

Q. Well, it is not your understanding of the law that
you became any part of the government of this Indian
Nation?

A. No, sir,

Q. It was your understanding and your instructions that

they were an independent nation, having their own
government?

A. Yes.

. And your position was more that of an ambassador

from the State of New of New York to this Indian
nation; doesn't that describe it pretty well?

A. Yes, sir,

Now, how sure are you about this statement that the
Indian Law of the State of New York fixes the duty
upon the Indian Agent to settle disputes?

A, Well, if the present Indian Agent had his law
book here I could show it to you. That is how sure
T am,

Have you got your Indian law here? I just sent for
it.

A, I don't know as you #i11 find it in your book,
put it is in the Agent's book and that is where I
got the aughority, from it and from Judge Ray.

Now, you also, inaddition to distributing the annuity
moneys come from the state of New York, distributed

: coming
as well the annuity moneys/from the United States

government?

A. No, sir.

Didn't you ever distribute them?

A. No, sir,

Well, what about the distribution of those moneys?
A. The federal agent does that.

Didn't you ever have any part in that?

A. No, sir.

Did he always come here to do that?

A. Yes, sir,

That is done in accordance with your enrollment or
did he have one of his own?

A. He had one of his own. ,

You didn't have any part in that?

A. None at all.

And did you at any time have any part in the distri-
bution of any federal annuities or other funds?

A. No, sir.

Where does the federal agent live?

A. Out in the westen part of the state.

That 1s, there is no federal agent for the Onondaga

Indians alone?

. And so you think that somebody should limit the funds

A. No, sir,

I do not know whether it is of any importance, but
let us talk about these suggestions you are making
here to the court. As I understand it your sugges~
tion is that this Indian Nation, which you say has
its own form of government, should not be allowed to
have any funds to be disposed of by its own govern-
ment, but that all moneys should be disposed of by
the agent and only for specific purposes?

A, I did not say they should not have any funds, but

that they should have seven hurdred and fifty dollars.

at their disposal? i
A. Yes, sir; I think seven hundred and fifty dollars
would take care of them nicely and the agent pay the
money out on the order of the council.

Inother words, you would take away from this nation
that you heretofore looked upon as having its own
government that portion of its right to govern it-
self which relates to the spending of its own money?

A. No, sir, I am not taking it away, or advocating

it, but if they had seven hundred and fifty dollars
it would be more than they ever had before,

Q. But yOu would substitute for their disposition of the
money yours or some one else's disposition?
A. No, you did not understand me,

Q. I understand you would like to have the rest of it
distributed as annuities so they would be given a
pro rata share?
A, Yes, sir.

But that the nation itself would have nothing to

say about how it was disposed of; is that right?
A. Why, I don't think they should. have anything to
say about how the moneys should be disposed of if
they had more than seven hundred and fifty dollars
a year as their proceeds to be disposed of for the
purposes mentioned,

Q. Didn't I understand you to state that you thought
the balance of the money ought to be distributed
as annuities are distributed, on a pro rata basis?
A. Yes, sty.

Q. And that would be substituting for their distribution

someone else's distribution and they could not have
anything to say about that?

A. No, six, but they would have --~

. (Interrupting) Now, I call your attention to section

21 of the Indian Law which specifies the duties of
the agent to the Onondaga tribe of Indians and ask
you if-you will read it and after reading it point
out to me what it says about there being any duty
or power in the Indian Agent to settle disputes
either between individual Indians or any portion

of them? ,

A. Well, there isn't anything in this here,

There is nothing in that section of the law?

A. No, sir, not in this section, but Mr. Fenner has
a book thet has something in it,

Well, is that the law of the state, or what somebody
else has written?

A. Yes, of couree it is the law.

Do you think you can find it?

A. Yes, if I had the book I could find it,

Well, can you find it anywhere?

A, I could if I had my book, but I did not brang it
with me,

MR. CREGG: Well, it says that he shall perform
such other duties in relation to the Indians as
maybe required by the Governor and as I understand
the Governor has made regulations requiring the
Indian Agent to settle these disputes.

THE WITNESS; Yes, sir.

MR. BROWN:

Now, as to your recital of these different persons
whom you recognized as chiefs while you were the
agent of the Onondaga reservation, upon what informa-
tion was that recital given, Mr. Fellows?

Why, they were elected by the council or appiored by
the council, the same as they had always been,

Well, what do you know about that; were you at the
council meeting? :

A. What they told me.

So it was hearsay of some kind on your part?

A, Yes, sir,

And with respect to any of them, was it what they

themselves said, of was it what someone else said to
you?
A. Well, they were Indians. Mr. Thomas, fot

instance, he was elected,

. You don't know anything about it, except what Thomas

or somebody else might have told you?

A. That is all I know.

And it is a fact that there are certain persons who
are on the reservation, and were at your time, known
as chiefs and have no right to be so known?

A. I think not.

Isn't it a fact that newspapers often printed pic-
tures of individuals and called them chiefs?

A. Well, there is one known as chief and you had to
only speak to him and he would say not, and that is
socalled Chief Isaacs. While he has been always
called chief, yet he hever was a chief, or not in

my time, at least.

And when you talk to him himself he does not so claim?
A. No, six.

And he is generally known around the city of Syracuse

ag chief?

A. I will modify that a little. I used to have
papers sent me from the council that were signed by
the chiefs, and if some person was in dispute, or
two parties over a piece of land, I would go and
get the chief and confer with them, and soforth,

or @ paper would come to me with these men's names
Signed to it sometimes for some purpose or other,
Was it any part of your duty to attend these counoil
meetings?

A. No, sir.

. Did pou attend them?

A. No, only one,

MR. BROWN: That is all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. OREGG:
Now, these chiefs whose names you have given me are
chiefs that were generally recognized on the reserva~
tion ae being the chiefs of the reservation?

A. Yes, sir,

101

And there was never any dispute arose as to them

whik you were there as Indian Agent?

A. No, sir.

NOW, Chief Isaacs, while he was known around Syracuse,
as my friend says, was never a chief of the reserva—
tion?

A. Not to my knowledge.

. And it was so understood on the reservation that he

was never a chief?

A. No, sir.

. He was a fellow that went around and put on war

paints and put on war dances and so oni

A. Yes, sir.

And in that way called himself chief; didn't he?

A. Yes, sir.

Now, whenver disputes did ari@e in reference to the
descent of land or the regularity of the dead

feast, the Indian Agent would be called in; wouldn't
het

A. No, not necessarily. .

They would consult him,

?They would consult him?

1028

A. Yes, sir,

Have you been called in on such occasions to finally
decide the descent?

A. No, sir; I always kept away from there because I
did not think it was my business or duty to be down
there at their meetings. After they had their coun
cil I would be notified what they had done.

Now, is it part of the duty of the Indian Agent,

in reference to leases, to state what amount, if any,
of the rents, shall be applied to the benefit of the
nation?

A. Only. on nation lands.

Nation lands?

A, Yes, sir.

. And there are two kinds of land on the reservation?

A. Yes, én. / tine is what is known as nation lana,
belonging to the whole nation, and the other is
individual land, belonging to the individual?

A. Yes, sir,

Inasmuch as section 21 of the Indian law of the

State of New York has been mentioned, I would like

to read it in evidence:

"DUTIES OF AGENTS. Each of such agents shall
annually on or about the first Monday of June prepare
and transmit to the comptroller an enumeration of such
Indians of which he is agent as are entitled to re~
ceive annuity moneys from the state. The
comptroller shall upon receipt of such enumeration
and undertaking send to each such agent the annuity
moneys payable by the state to the Indians of which
he is agent. Hach agent shall thereupon distribute
such moneys to the Indians for which he is agent
who are entitled thereto, paying the same to the
heads of families and individuals so far as practica-
ble, and shall forthwith report such distribution
to the comptroller. Such agent shall protect the
rights and interests of the tribe of which he is
agent and perfowm such other duties in relation to
them as maybe required by the Governor",

I think I will offer the Indian Law, so far
as applicable to the Onondaga Indians ~ there are

some sections in it that apply only to the Senecas

and other tribes ~ in evidence.
THE COURT: Received.
(INDIAN LAW OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK received
in Evidence, )
MR. CREGG: That ig all, Mr. Fellows.
MR. BROWN; That is all,

MR. OREGG: I will call Mr. Kennedy.

WALTER , KENNEDY,
called as a witness in behalf of the defendants and being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT BXAMINATION

BY MR, OREGG:
Q. Mr. Kennedy, where do you reside?

A. I reside on thé Allegany reservation.
Q. And you are an Indian?

A. Yes, sir.

. A member of what nation?

A. Seneca nation.

- Seneca nation?

105

Yes, sir.

. How old are you?

A. Why, I was tola I was born in 1866.

About sixty-two?

A. Yes, that would make me sixty-two; of course, I
could not swear to it.

Do you hold some position in reference to the Six
Nations at the present time?

A. Yes, sir.

. And what is it?

A. I was appointed as secretary of the Six Nations.
And when was that, or how long have you been such
secretary?
A. Since the twenty-first day of July, 1924,

MR. BROWN: What is that again, please?

THE WITNESS: Twenty-first day of July, 1924,
MR. CREGG:
And prior to that time did you hold any position
in the Indian Councils?

A. Yes, sir,

. What?

106

A. Clerk of the Seneca nation.

Clerk of the Seneca nation?

A. Yes, sir, and I have been a member of the council

of the Seneca nation.

. And how long have you been a clerk of the Seneca

nation?

A. This is my fourth term,

A ND how long is a term?

A. Two years.

And 60 you have been a clerk of the Seneca Nation
since 1920, or about then?

A. Yes, sir,

And how long have you been a chief of the Seneca
Nation?

A. Oh, I have never been a chief. We have no chiefs
in the Seneca nation,

You have no chiefs, but you have what you call
councilors there?

A. Yes, sir,

What is the Six Nations?

A. It is a confedefation of the nations of Indians.

. Well, name them; the Senecas and what others?

A, The Senecas, Oneidas, Onondagas, the Cayugas,
Tuscaroras and -~-~
(Interrupting) ANd the Mohawks?

A. The Mohawks were inoluded in the tribes when

peace was declared between the socalled Six Nations,

. And the Federal government?

A. Yes, sir; and the United States government;

and the Mohawks had removed from this country over
into Canada and were given six months to return and
they failed to come back.

That is, at that time they were friendly with Great
Britain?

A. Yes, sir.

. As you understand?

A. So I understand,
And they have remained in Canada since?

A. Yes, sir.

. And do they now constitute what is Known as the

St. Regis Indians; as you understand?
A, No, sir.

They are separate?

A. Yes, sir.

. Well, now, in these condolences, are the Mohawks

recognized as being one of the Six Nations’

A. That is something that I do not really understand
myself, Of course, we have a republican form of
government, and that is all we have now,

Well, does the Seneca Nation work with the other
four nations in what they call the six nations

condolences?

A. Yes, sir.

. And instead of sending chiefs to represent them,

they send what they call councilors?

A. Why, they notify the president of the Seneca
Nation and he in turn calle the council and the
council passes a resolution authorizing the presi-~
dent, or somebody with his authority, to call on
any members of the Seneca Nation to cooperate with
him and to attend the councils of the Six Nations.
And attend condolences?

A. Yes, sir,

Now, you have in the Seneca Nation a written consti-

109

tution; have yout

A. Yes, sir.

And when was that adopted?

A. The first constitution was adopted in the year
1848.

And does that govern the whole Seneca reservation?
A. Yes, sir.

And that is the only ——-

A. (Interrupting) That is the Seneca nation,

The Seneca nation?

A. Yes, sir.

And that is the only custom, really, or rule or law,
that is recognized in the Seneca Nation at the
present time?

A. Yes, sir.

And that has been recognized since it was adopted?

A. Yes, sir,

. As secretary of the six nations what is your duty?

A. To take the minutes of each session,

. Now, was there a condolence called of the Six

Nations in October, 19247

BY MR. CREGG:

Q. Was there one held?

110

MR, BROWN: I object to that as incompetent.

I don't object to the minutes.

MR. BROWN: I object to that as calling for a

conclusion. I do not object to his testifying to

what the minutes say.

THE COURT: If he knows he may answer.

BY MR, CREGG:

Q. Do you know whether there was one held or not?

MR. BROWN: I object to that

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BROWN: An exception.

THE WITNESS: Well, we don't - when it is the
condolence, I am not notified. I don't attend the
condolences. These Six Nations meetings are called

councils and not condolences.

BY MR. OREGG:

Q. Well, you call them councils?

A.Yes, sir; that is really what we call them, not

condolences, meaning the installation of chiefs,

And you name your own chiefs on your reservation?
A. Yes, sir, or council,
Or your own council?
A. Yes.
And they are not ratified or approved by the
Six Nation condoleme?
A.No, sir,
Now, where was this conference held in 1924, in
October?
A. What is that question again, please?
Where was the council of the Six Nations held in
October, 19847
MR. BROWN: I object to that as irrelevant
and immaterial,
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. BROWN: An exception.
THE WITNESS: What dabe, did you say?
MR. CREGG:
Twenty-£88F4K day of October, 19247

A, It was held at Onondaga Castle.

. And that 1s on the Onondaga Reservation!

A. Yes, sir.

. And you acted as secretary at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

. What nations were represented at that conference?

A. Oneida Nation, Onondaga Nation, Seneca Nation,
Tonawanda Band of Senecas. The Cayuga Nation and
thé TuscarorarNation were absent.

Did you keep minutes of that meeting?
A. Yes, sir. ,

‘And since you have been secretary have regular
minutes of meetings been kept?

A, Yes, sir,

And have you the original minutes you kept at
that time?

A. Yes, sir.

And is this a copy of the original minutes certified

by yout
A. Yes, sir.
MR, OREGG: I Ask to have this marked for

identifcation.

(Same marked Defendants! Exhibit Number 1, for

identification. )

BY MR. OREGG:

Q. I show you defendants! exhibit nmmber 1, for
identification, consisting of three sheets, and I
ask you if that is a correct copy of the minutes
of that meeting and certified by you as secretary?
A. Yes, sir,
. What is your answer?

A. Yes, sir,

MR. CREGG: I offer exhibit one in evidence,

THE COURT: Received,

(Certified copy of minutes of meeting held

October twentieth, 1924, reoeived in evidence

and marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 1.)

MR. CREGG: "Council of Six Nations of socalled
Oonfederacy. Pursuant to call. ‘The Sachems: True
and Lawful representatives of the Six Nations of
socalled Confederacy assembled in Council, held *
at Onondaga Castle, on 20th day of October, 1924,
and was called to order by Chief Andrew Gibson of
the Onondaga Nation, Chief Sachem Pro Tem. Invocation

by Chief Sachem Pro. Tem. y

ee rreneene

Roll Gall.

Present: Oneida Nation, Onondaga Nation,
Seneca Nation, Tonawanda Band of Semcas. Absent:
Cayuga. Nation, Tuscarora Nation.

Quorum Present,

On motion of Walter Kennedy of the Seneca
Nation: That this council take into consideration
the question of confirming the nomination and election
of Jesse Jones as Chief Sachem of the Six Nations
of socalled Confederacy. Oarried.

Chief Solomon Scrogg of the Tonawanda. Band
of Senecas offered the following resolution:

WHEREAS, That one George Thomas of the Onondaga
Nation having been duly nominated and elected to
the office of Chief Sachem of the Six Nations of
socalled Confederacy, and in accordance with the
sastone aud laws of the said socalled Confederacy,
on or about the year 1917;

WHEREAS, That said George Thomas having ex~
ceeded and usurped the authority and powers vested

in and by said Chief Sachems of the said Six

115

Nations of socalled Confederacy, contrary to the
customs and laws of said socalled Confederacy; and

WHEREAS, That said George Thomas having been
deposed on or shout the eighth day of March, 1924,
as Chief Sachem of the Six jatione of socalled
Confederacy for reasons above stated; and

WHEREAS, That one Joshua Jones, a member of
the Onondaga Nation, having been nominated and
elected to the office of Chief Sachem of the Six
Nations of socalled Confederacy on the fourth day
of October, 1934, in accordance with the customs
and laws of the said socalled Confederacy; now,
therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That we, the Sachems, True and
lawful representatives of the $ix Nations of socalled
Confederacy, do hereby approve, confirm and
ratify the nomination and election of the said
Joshua Jones to the office of Chief Sachem of the
Six Nations of socalled Confederacy.

Done at Onondaga Castle on the 20th day of

October, 1924,

. Never attended any?

. You never attended a condolence on the head chief?

116

“Unanimously adopted."
MRL CREGG:
You are familiar with the customs and rules of the
socalled Confederacy in reference to electing a
Head Chief?
A. No, I could not say that I am, because I never

attended any.

A, Never attended a conddlence,

A. No, sir.

- You were not present at the meeting on October fourth,

19247

A. No, sir.

. Or you were not present at the March meeting, 19247

A. No, sir.
And was this a regular meeting of the council of
the Six Nations of socalled ~-~
MR. BROWN (Interrupting): I object to that.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

MR. BROWN: Just a minute. I object to that as

117

calling for a conclusion, and we haven't any proof
here that there is anything such as a council yet,
or what the laws are for its government or how it
” was called, and soforth.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
BY MR. OREGG:
Q. Do you know whether or not this was a regular
meeting ~~
MR. BROWN (Interrupting): Same objection.
THE COURT: It does not appear from any evidence
in this case there is any organization such as this
purports to be, or that it has any authority as to
date and place of meeting, or who constitutes its
membership and soforth. I sustain the objection,
MR. CREGG: We will see about that.
BY MR. OREGG:
Q. What is the council of the Six Nations of socalled
Confederacy?
A. The cond of the Six Nations of socalled
Confederacy consists of the Nations of the names

presented, the Six Nations, that ie, the Oneidas, the

118

Onondagas, Cayugas, Seneca Nation, Tonawanda Band of
Senecas, and Tuscarora Nation, and at the call of the
Chief Sachem of the Six Nations.

Q And what is the purpose of the Council of the Six
Nations?
A. The purpose of calling the council of Six Nations
is to deliberate on matters pertaining to the welfare
and interest of the Six Nations,

Q. And is that the way the business of the Six Nations
is transacted?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the couneil of the Six Nations?
A. Yes, sir,

Q. And how are all the nations represented, by someone
designated?
A. Yes, sir, the Six Nations comprising these
Nations, select their own delegates.

Q. Select their own delegates to this council?
A. EAs sir, to attend this council,

Q. HOw many delegates is each nation entitled tof

A. Well, I never saw any stipulation or any agreement

119

as to that, as to the number,

Send as many as they see fit?

A. Yes, sir, that is, nowadays they do. Of course,
in old days, why, they had more regulations than
we do now, and this trouble at this time is that
the different nations act differently towards the

regulations of the council of the Six Nations. In

‘the old days, as I understand it, each of the nations

had a certain number; the Mohawk nation, the Oneidas

“ and the Onondagas and Cayugas had only one fepresen~

tative, and the Seneca Nation had two.

. How many did the Onondagas have?

A. One,

. And the Oayugast

A. One.
And the Seneca Nation had two?

A.Had two,

. And the representatives were chosen by the governing

body in each reservation?

A. On each reservation; yes, sir; by each nation.

. And how are those councils called?

A. They care called at the request of anyone of the
nations that has some matter to be brought up before
the Six Nations, and he notifies what we call the

Fire Keeper, that is, the Onondaga Nation.

. The Onondaga Nation is the Fire Keeper?

A. Yes, sir.

And what nation do you recognize as the Wampum
Keeper?

A. Well, we follow the old custom that the regular
order is, or the old form of government, that is,
we call the Oneidas the Wampum Keepers of the Six
Nations.

And the Onondagas are the Fire Keepers?

A. Yes, sir.

. And any nation that wants a matter settled notifies

the Fire Keepers that a council is desired?

A. Yes, sir,

And then a council is calleé?

A. Yes, sir.

And is it at that council that the head chief of

the Six Nations is elected, if there is a vacancy?

A. Well, not just that.

Q. Well, when and where is he elected?
A. As I understand it, the Head Chief of the Six
Nations, that is, the presiding officer, what you
call the Ta~do-da—ho, he is supposed to be an
Onondaga Indian.
MR. BROWN: What was that name?
THE WITNESS; Each nation as a Ta-do-da—ho.
MR. CREGG: Well, do you know how to spell
the word Ta-do~da-ho?
THE WITNESS: I think it is T-o-d-ar-ho-a-h.
MR. BROWN: That is not it,
THE WITNESS: Well, each nation pronounces
it differently.
fo MR, OREGG: Is it T-a-d-o-d-a~—h-o?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I think that is it.
BY MR. OREGG:
Q. And the Head Chief is approved at that council; is
that right; the same as it was done in this case?
MR. BROWN: I object to that as assuming facts
not proven,

MR. CREGG: I Will waive that question.

MR. GREGG:
Do you know what this council was called for on
the 20th of October, 19247
MR. BROWN: I object to that as immaterial and
the call will show itself, and not the best evidence.
THE COURT: Was there a written call?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. CREGG:
Have you the written call?
A. The Head Chief of the Onondaga Nation notified
our President that they were going to have a session
of the council of the Six Nations at Onondaga Castle
on that date,
I eee. And did he notify you as to what the purpose
of it was?
A, That is, to confirm the nomination and election
of Joshua Jones as Head Chief of the Six Nations,
And that was the purpose of the meeting?
A. Yes, sir. ,
And you thenmet and took the action you have referred
to in the minutes now in evidence?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you familiar with the method in which chiefs
are selected and raised in the various councils?
A. No, sir, I could not swear to that. I have
heard people talk about it, and that is all I know
about it.

Q. Was there another council of the Six Nations held
on the twenty-first day of September, 19257
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where was that held?
A. On the Tonawanda Reservation,

Q. And at whose request was that called?

A. I couldn't say at whose reqyest the counsel was

called. We were notified that the oouncil was to

be held at that time on someone of the reservations.

Q. And who was recognized at that meeting as the Chief
Sachem of the Six Nations?
MR. BROWN: I object to that as incompetent
and hearsay.
THE COURT: Were you present at that council?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. CREGG:

Q. Did you keep minutes of the meeting?

A.Yes, sir.

And have you those minutes here?
A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Objection overruled,
MR. BROWN; An exception,
MR, OREGG:
Who presided at that meeting?
A. Joshua Hones.
And whose duty is it to preside at a council of the
Six Nations?
A. The Sachem of the Six Nations, Joshaa Jones.
Well, without mentioning any names, is it the duty
of the Head Chief, whoever he may be, to preside
at the council of the Six Nations?
A. The Head Chief of the Six Nations?
Yes,
A, Yes, sir,
And if there is not any Head Chief of the Six Nations,
then does the Head Chief of the Fire Keepers preside
in his placet

A. There is no council held under the circumstances.

Well, there was a council held on October 80th,

1924; was there not?
A. It was held under authority of Mr. Jones,
he designating the Head Chief of the Onondaga Nation
to preside, and Mr. Jones was somewheres off in New
York or some other place at the time.

THE COURT: At that time Mr. Jones had not been
elected chief, had he?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir,

MR, OREGG:

. Wasn't he approved at that council?

A. October 20th, 1924, he was.
And that is what made him a full fledged chief,
the approval by the council?

A. That is, Head Chief of the Six Nations,

. And by approval of that council?

A. Yes, sir,
And the Onondaga Council had selected him before
that, as you understand?

MR. BROWN: Well, I object to that, the witmess
not shown competent to state and hearsay.

THE COURT: Objeotion sustained.

MR. CREGG: Well, he understands it.

MR. BROWN: Well, what he understands is of no
importance here.

THE COURT: Who presided at that council on Oct-
ober 20th, 19247 :

THE WITNESS: October 20th, 1924, Andrew Gibéon.

THE COURT; And he was Chief then, Head Chief
of the Onondaga Nation?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. EGG:
Now, after that meeting, October 20th, 1924, did
you recognize Joshua Jones as the Head Chief of the
Six Nations?
A. Yes, sir.

MR, BROWN: I object to that as irrelevant and
immaterial.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

MR, BROWN: An exception,
MR. CREGG:
At the meeting held on September 21st, 1925, Joshua

Jones presided?

1287

A. Yes, sir, he did.

. And what nations were represented at that meeting?

A. The Cayuga Nation, the Onondaga Nation, the
Oneida ‘ation, Seneca Nation, and Tonawanda Band of
Senecas, and the Tuscaroras were absent.

Well, did William Johnson represent the Tuscaroras
there at that time?

A. Well, he was there, but we were todd that he was
not a Chief.

And you considered the Tuscaroras were absent?

A. Yes, sir.

. And have you a copy of the minutes with you of that

meeting?

A. Yes, sir.

. And May I use that copy instead of this?

A. I don't know whether you can make out what I

have got here. You may have it.

Well, have you a copy, if this is the original?

A. No; that is the original,

I have a copy here but it is all marked up. Is this

a copy of the minutes of that meeting?

A. Yes, sir,

MR. CREGG: I offer it in evidence.

THE COURT: Received.

(Minutes of meeting of September 21, 1935,
consisting of two sheets, received in evidence

and marked defendants' exhibit No. 3.)

BY MR. CREGG:

Q. Now, you say Exhibit 8 is a copy of the minutes of

that meeting of September 21st, 19257
A, That is a part of the minutes and as far as that

matter is concerned,

Q. As far as this matter is comerned?

A, Yes, sir.

Q. And that is not a complete copy of all the

minutes at that time?

A. 80, sir; so far as that resolution is concerned,

Q. And so that there will be no mistake, I will ask

the witness to read the minutes of that meeting?
MR, BROWN: Of what meeting, please?

MR. CREGG: Of September 21st, 1924,

129

MR. BROWN: I object to it, unless it appears
what it is a meeting of and who was there, and
it is indefinite,

MR. OREGG: Healready stated that it was a
meeting of the Council of the Six Nations ani told
who was present, ,

‘MR, BROWN: No. He mentioned the names of
the nations and then he gave the name of a certain
individual, and except for this individual we
don't know who was present at this meeting.

MR, OCREGG:

. Well, tell us who was present representing the Cayuga

Nation at that time?

A. Present for the Cayuga Nation, Chief Asher A.
Parker, and Chief Charles Bowen,

And who oe there representing the Onondaga Nation?
A. For the Onondaga Nation, Andrew Gibson and ,

Emmett Lyons,

. And Chief Lyons?

A. Chief Lyons,
ANd was Joshua Jones there?

A. Yes, sir. I will read the whole minutes.

130

Just a minute and I will come to that. Who

was present representing the Oneida Nation?

A, The Oneida Nation was represented by William |
Rockwell and Albert Schanandoah,

And the Seneca Nation?

A. And the Seneca Nation was represented by President
Frank L. Patterson and William C0. Hoag and Walter

Kennedy,

. Ana the Band of Senecas?

A. Chief Solomon Scroggs. And, will I read the minutes

of the meeting t

Yes. Will you now read the minutes of the meeting?
A. "September 2lst, 1925. Council of Six Nations of
socalled Confederacy. Pursuant to Call. The
Sachems, true and lawful representatives of the

Six Nations of socalled Confederacy, convened in
session and held on the Tonawanda Reservation on

the twenty-first day of September, 1925, and was
called to order by Chief Sachem Joshua Jones of the

Onondaga Nation. Invocation by the Chief Sachem.

Roll Call.

Present: Cayuga Nation represented by Chief
Asher Parker and Charles Bowen. Onondaga Nation
represented by Andrew Gibson, Chief Emmett Lyons
and Chief Jesse Lyons. Oneida Nation represented
by WW1liam Rockwell and Albert Schanandoah.
Seneca Nation represented by Frank L. Patterson,
William C. Hoag and Walter Kennedy. Tonawanda Band
of Senecas represented by Chief Solomon Scroggs.

Tuscarora Nation atseent,"

. Yes. Proceed.

A. "Regular Order of Business. Reading of the

minutes of the last session by the Clerk. So ordered.

On motion bf Andrew Gibson, Onondaga Nationk
the minutes of the last session be read by the seo-
retary. So ordered,

On motion by William 0. Hoag of the Seneca
Nation: That the minutes of the last session as read
by the secretary be and the same is hereby approved
and ratified. Carried.

Address by the Chief Sachem on matters pertain-—

ing to the interest and welfare of the Six Nations

of socalled Confederacy.

On motion of Immett Lyons, Onondaga Nation,

that this council take into consideration the ways

and means of recognizing the true and lawful repre-

sentatives of each of the nations comprising the

Six Nations of socalled Confederacy of North America.

Oarried.

List of names submitted of Chiefs of Onondaga

Nation by Jesse Lyons:

List of names of Chiefs of Onondaga Nation:

Joshua Jones,
Andrew Gibson,

Emmett Lyons,

SF a2 wD HF

George Van Every, Sr.,
5 Frank Isaacs,

6 John White,

7 George Crowe,

8 Charles Green,

9 George Van Every, Jr.,

10 James Lyon, .

11 William Webster,

Hel Clan.

Beaver Clan,

Small Flower Clan.
Ball Clan.

Turtle Olan.

Large Wolf Clan.
Deer Olan,

Deer Clan.

Wolf Clan (Deceased)

Bel Clan.

12 Wilson Johnson, Sr., Bear Clan.
13 WilsonJohnson, Jr., Ostrich Clan.
Adam Thomas, the Official Custodian of
the Wampums of the Six Nations.
This list is approved by the undersigned
custodian,
Ohief Adam Thomas,
Custodian.
List of names of Bodyguard Chiefs of the
Onondaga Nation:
L Has no Bodyguard.
Jesse Lyons.
Ruben Jones.
No Bodyguard.

Jason Hill.

Qo GF FF & Bw

HLi Schenandare.
7 No Bodyguard.

8 Davis Green.

9 Newton Green.
10 Howard Hill.

11 George Webster.

13 Icias Schenandare.

13. Albert Kennedy.

This list is approved by the undersigned
Qustodian, Chief Adam Thomas.

Frank L, Patterson of the Seneca Nation
offered the following resolution:

Resolved that the list of names of chiefs

of the Onondaga Nation presented and as read by the
secretary be and the same hereby are declared to be

the true and lawful chiefs of the Onondaga Nation,

one of the nations comprising the Six Nations of

the socalled Iroquois Confederacy of North America,

Unanimously adopted.
Address of A. B, Fenner, New York State

Indian Agent on question of conflicting clains of

supposed chiefs of the different nations comprising

the Six Nations socalled of the Iroquois Confederacy.

Address of Special United States Indian

Agent, William K, Harrison, on matters pertaining

to the appointment of chiefs of the governments of

the several nations comprising the Six Nations

of the socalled Iroquois Confederacy.

Address of William Johnson of the Tuscarora
nation on matters now under consideration.

Petition and list of names of cayuge Nation
filed by Chief Asher Parker of said Nation and
recommemlation for action by this Council on said
petition. So ordered.

List of Cayuga Nation.

Chief Asher Parker, Heron Clan.
BodyGuard Ernest Spring, Heron Clan

Chief Charles Bowen, Beaver Clan,
Bodyguard Sam Warrior, Beaver Clan.

Held on the Onondaga Reservation, December
8, 1923, according to custom.

Respectfully submitted, Chief Asher Parker,
Cayuga Nation, ,

On motion of Walter Kennedy of the Seneca
Nation, that the list of names of Chiefs of the
Cayuga Nation as presented by Chief Asher Parker
be taken into consideration by this Council.
Carried.

On motion by Emmett Lyons of the Onondaga

Nation: Phat the list of names of chiefs of the
Cayuge. Nation as presented by Ohief Asher Parker
be and the same are hereby declared the recognized
chiefs of the Cayuga Nation, one of the Nations

of Indians comprising the Six Nations of Indians
socalled of Iroquois Confederacy. Carried.

On motion of Solomon Scroggs of the Tonawanda
Band of Senecas, that a copy of the minutes of
this session be sent to Chief J. Warner Brayley
of the Tuscerora Nation. Carried.

On motion of William.¢c. Hoag of the Seneca
Nation: That the Council take into consideration
the question of the adoption of a Six Nations of
Indians of Iroquois Constitution, Carried.

On motion of Walter Kennedy of the Seneca
Nation: That the President or Chairman of each
Nation comprising the Six Nations of Indians socalled
of the Iroquois Confederacy present the question of
the adoption of a Six Nations Constitution before
their respective chiefs in council assembled.

Carried.

137

On motion of William ¢. Hoag of the Seneca
Nation: That this Council adjourn sine die.
Carried.

Q. Was there any other meeting of the council of the

Six Nations between January, 19234, or July, 1924, the

day you became secretary, and the present time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was the first meeting after you became
secretary? Was that the meeting in October, 19841
A, No, sir.
Q. When was the first meeting of the Council of the
Six Nations?
A. The first meeting after I was appointed Secretary,
I was eledted, then I was appointed clerk, acting
clerk for the one special session.
Q. And when was that?
A. Twenty-first of July, 1924.
Q. In 19247
A. Yes, air, and the following session.
Q. And where did that meeting take place?

A. In the city of Salamanca,

And what nations were represented at that time?

A. Present: Onondaga Nation, Oneida Nation, Cayuga
Nation, Tuscarora Nation, Seneca Nation, and absent
the Tonawanda Band of Senecas,

And who represented the different nations?

A, I did not take the names down there.

You did not?

A. No,sir, The nations were called in rotation and

answered in their turns.

. Who presided at that meeting? °

A. Andrew Gibson, as chairman Pro Tem.
And when was the nxt meeting?
A. The next meeting was on the 30th day of August,

1924,

. And who presided at that meeting?

A. Andrew Gibson, as President Pro Tem.

. And what nations were present!

A. Seneca Nation, Cayuga, Oneida, Onondaga,
Tuscarora, Tonawanda Band of Senecas; absent, none.
Was there any action taken at either of those

meetings, in July or August, in reference to the

139

Head Chief of the Six Nations?

A. I will read the minutes as they are.

. No. We don't care about the minutes unless there

is something in them bearing on this lawsuit?

A, Well, that is what the meeting was called for,
for the purpose of stopping certain people who were
acting --—

(Interrupting): That is the meeting of July twenty-
first?

A. Yes, sir,

. All right. Read the minutes of that meeting. That

was held where, on what reservation?

A. On the Alleganey Reservation.

Then read the minutes.

A. "Special Session of the Six Nations; July @lst,
1924. Pursuant to Call. The Six Nations of Indians»
convened in council on the Alleganey Reservation

on the twenty~first day of July, 1924, at one o'clook
P, M., and was called to order by the Chairman

Pro Tem. Andrew Gibson off the Onondaga Nation ~ of

Onondaga Council. Invocation by Chairman Andrew

140

Gibson.
Regular Order of business.

The appointment of a Olerk. 80 ordered.

On motion of Jesse Lyons of the Onondaga
Nation: That this couneil appoint Walter Kennedy of
the Seneca Nation of Indians acting clerk for this
session. Carried.

Roll call of the Six Nations by the Chairman,
Andrew Gibson,

Present: Onondaga Nation, Oneida Nation,
Gayuga Nation, Seneca Nation, Tuscarora Nation,
absent, Tonawanda Band of Senecas.

On motion of 1686 Lyons of the Onondaga
Nation: That this council take into consideration 3%
the question of devising ways and means wk to stop
any person or persons in collecting funds from the
public of the Six Nagions for unlawful purposes or
disturbing the peace of the Six Nations of Indians.
Oarried.

On motion of Walter Kennedy of the Seneca

Nation: That this council adjourn to the chambers of

Honorable Hudson Ansley. Carried.

On motion of Jesse Lyons of the Onondaga
Nation:Qhat this council appoint a committee to
draft a resolution, the same to be presented to
the proper authorities restraining any and all per-
sons from collecting funds or disturbing the
peace of the Six Nations of Indians. Oarried.

On motion of Jones Titus of the Seneca Nation:

THat this council appoint William 0. Hoag and
Walter Kennedy of the Seneca Nation to be
members of such committee. Oarried.

On motion of Jesse Lyons of the Onondaga Nation:
That this council appoint Andrew Gibson and Emmett |
Lyons of the Onondaga Nation to be members of such
committee. Carried.

On motion of Samuel Warrior of the Cayuga
Nation: That this council appoint Ernest Spring
and Charles Bowen of the Cayuga Nation to be
members of such committee. Oarried.

On motion of Jones Titus of the Seneca Nation: :

That this council appoint Albert Schanandoah and

William Rockwell of the Oneida Nation and Lucius

Williams and Warren Brailley of the Tuscarora Nation
to be members of such @mmittee. Carried.

On motion of Charles Sundown of the Seneca
Nation that this council appoint Albert Jones and
Howard Jones to be members of such committee.
Carried,

On motion of Jesse Lyons of the Onondaga Nation
that this council adjourn until five o'clock this
P, M. Carried,

Five o'clock P. M, Council called to order.

Regular order of business.

Report of committee on draft of resolution.

So ordered,

Report of the Committee:

’ To the Honorable Chairman and Council of the
Six Nations’ of Indians, Gentlemen:

We, the undersigned, appointed a committee by
your Honorable body to draft a resolution, do hereby
most respectfully submit the following resolution:

At a meeting of the Six Nations of Indians

socalled of the Iroquois Confederacy, the following

programme and resolutions were unanimously adopted:
WHEREAS, A group of people are misrepresenting
our government, unlawfully claiming authority to
act for our government, to wit: One George Thomas,
unlawfully claiming to be the president of the Six
Nations of Indians, when in fact he has been deposed
and has no authority to act, and further a group
that is falsely representing themselves as a finance
committee of the Six Nations of the qudieberways j
WHEREAS, Said committee is wrongfully persuading
Indians of the various reservations to contribute a .
fee or tax on the pretense of a claim that the
Indians own eighteen million acres of land in the
State of New York, including some of the most popu-
lous cities, and also the pretense of the State of
|
New York being willing to pay millions of dollars
to settle the claim and make them all rich;
WHEREAS, It igs our belief that large sums of
money have been collected and arrangements are being

made to collect much more;

WHEREAS, Some of the Indians are making payments

144

pelieving that immediate riches are coming to them
from the said claims;

WHEREAS, The above claime and the efforts
and activities of the above group have been and are
a source of turmoil, working up hatred, suspicions
and a feeling among the Indians; now, therefore,be
it

RESOLVED, That a committee is appointed, con-
sisting of William C. Hoag, Walter Kennedy, Andrew
Gibson, Emmett Lyons, Ernest Spring, Charles Bowen,
Albert Schanandoah, William Rockwell, Lucius
Williams and Warren Brayley, Albert Jones and
Howard Jones, to present this matter to the United
States District Attorney of the Western Distrkct of
New York, together with other printed and writtten
data and evidence, and if possible obtain his assis-
tance in combatting and stopping the above wrongs,
and we respectfully request that such proceedings
be taken as will accomplish that end.

Witness our hands and seals this twenty-firkst

day of July, 1924, in council assembled on the

And the next meeting was in August, 19247

A, August thirtieth, 1924.

And where was that held?

A. That was held on the Tonawanda reservation.

And will you read the minutes of that meeting?
MR, BROWN: I object to that, Your Honor.
MR. OREGG: No, October 30th. Let me ask about

that so there won't be any question about it.

The first one I think I asked him about was in

September and one in October.

MR. CREGG:

Now, have you read the minutes of October 30th,

19347

A. No, sir, I have not.

. Will you read them?

MR. BROWN: Is there anything in them about the
question of who the chiefs are? That is the only
thing we want.

MR, GREGG:

Is that in reference to who is the Head Chief of the

Six Nations? Juet refer to that in there? Let

Alleganey Reservation:
Andrew Gibson, President Pro Tem. of the
Six Nations; Chiefs Jesse Lyons and Hmmetb Lyons,
representing the Onondaga Nation; Chiefs Warren
Brayley and Lucius Williams representing the Tusca-
rora. Nation; William Rockwell and Albert Schanadoah
representing the Oneida nation; Ernest Spring, Charles
Bowen and Sam Warrior, representing the Cayuga Nation;
William C. Hoag and Walter Kennedy, representing the
(Alleganey )
Seneca. Nation; Charles H. Sundown, Albert Jones
and Howard Joe representing the Seneca Nation
(Cattaraugus); Chiefs Solomon Scrogge and Thomas
Pordy, representing the Tonawanda Band of Senecas,
Attest, Walter Kennedy, acting clerk of the
Six Nations."
I want to correct the reading of the minutes
as to the roll call. As I recall I said the Tonawanda
Band of Senecas was absent. It was present and
acted,

That is the meeting of July, 19247

A, July twenty~first, 1934,

me ask you: What was the purpose of that meeting?

A, Well, that is just to finish business, what aaa

done in reporting the activities of these people.
MR. BROWN: Well, I object to that as inrele-

vant and immaterial in any event.

MR. OREGG:

Does it refer in any way to the Head Chief of the

Six Nations?

A. No,

And then the next meeting after that was when?

A. On the twentty~seventh day of September, 19243

And have you read the minutes of that meeting? ,
A. No, sir,
Does that meeting in any way refer to the chiefs
and the Head Chief of the Six Nations?

A. Well, it refers to the activities of this Mrs.

Kellogg disturbing the peace of the Six Nations.

. What was the purpose of that meeting?

A, Well, I will read the minutes,
Who presided at that meeting?

A, Ohief Sachem Pro Tem. Andrew Gibson.

Q.And did Andrew Gibson preside at the meeting held

on August thirtieth?
A. Yes, sir,
When was the next meeting after September, what
is that date?
A. The twenty~seventh.
What was the next meeting after September twenty-
seventh?
A. December twentieth, 1924,
And what was the purpose of that meeting?
A. I was not present at that meeting, but I have
the minutes here that were made at that time,
Does that meeting in any way ~ well, who presided
at that meeting?

MR, BROWN: I object to it. Apparently the
witness knows nothing about it.
MR. OREGG:
Are those the minutes of the meeting held at
that time?
A. Yes, sir,

MR. BROWN: I object to that as incompetent

149

and improper. How does he know if he was not there,
MR. CREGG:
Who acted as secretary of that meeting?

MR. BROWN: I object to that on the same
grounds. There is no possibility of the witness
having any information as to that.

THE COURT: Objection sustained,

MR. CREGG:

Where did you find this record that you have
there?

A, These records here?

No. The one in reference to this meeting in
December, What day in December was that?

A. On December 20th, 1924, do youmean?

Yes.

A. It was sent to me by direction of the coumil
by Chief Warren Brayley of the Tuscarora Nation.
Who does it purport to show acted as secretary?
A. Chief Warren Brayley.

OGhief Warren Brayly?

A. Yes, sir,

in
Hl

Let me look at them. I think Brayly is here and I
will show them to him.

When was the next meeting?

A. The next meeting was January tenth, 1925, - or
October 20th, 1924.

You read the one for October 20th, 19347

A. Yes, sir, I read that,

Yes.

A. And the next meeting was on the tenth day of

January, 1925.

. Did you keep the minutes of that meeting?

A. Yes, six. ‘

And who presided?

A. Joshua Jones.

And what nations were represent ed?

A. The Cayuga nation, Onondaga nation, Oneida
Nation, Seneca Nation, Tonawanda Nation and the
Tuscarora Nation,

And what was the purpose of that meeting?

A. Well, there were several matters that

come before the council at that time.

And did any matter come up at that time in reference

151

to Head Chief of the Six Nations?

A. No, sir,

. And what was the next meeting after that?

A. September.
After that?
A. This is September twenty-first, 1925,
And who called that meeting together and,who
presided at that meeting, rather?
A. Joshua Jones,
And what nations were represented?
A. The Cayugas, Onondagas, oneidas, Senecas, the
Tonawanda band of Senecas, and the Tuscarora
Nation absent.
When was the next meeting?
A. Twenty-seventh day of February, 1928.
THE COURT: Day before yesterday?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir,
MR. CREGG:
Where was this meeting held?
A. It washeld down at Onondaga Castle.

On the Onondaga Reservation?

A. Yes, sir,

What nations were represented at that time?

A, Cayuga nation, Onondaga nation, Oneida nation,
Seneca nation, Mohawk Nation; and Tonawanda Band of
Senecas and Tuscarora Nation absent.

And can you tell us who represented each nation?

A. Cayuga Netion represented by Charles Bowen and
Asher Parker and Ernest Spring; Onondaga Nation
reprewented by Chiefs Andrew Gibson, Emmett Lyons
and Wilson Johnson, Senior; Oneida Nation represented
by Albert Schanandoah and Chapman. Schanandoah;
Seneca Nation represented by Hanover Bennett,
Sylvester C. Crouse and W alter Kennedy; Mohawk
Nation represented by Julius Herne; Tuscarora Nation
absent; and Tonawanda Band of Senecas represented

by Chief Thomas Jones.

Was there any action there taken in reference to the
Ohiet of the Nation, of the Six Nations?

A. Just the approval of the minutes of the last
session as fead by the secretary of the council of

September 80th,1927.

153

Read whatever the minutes contain in reference to
that?

A. All there is to it is: "On motion of Emmett
Lyons of the Onondaga Nation, that the minutes of
the last session of the council of the Six Nations
of Indians of Iroquois Confederacy as read by the
secretary be and the same is hereby approved and
ratified. Unanimously adopted.

And to what date did these minutes of approval
relate; what date did they approve?

A, They approved the whole session of the day of
the last session of the council of the Six Nations;
that is one day.

What is that?

A, I said each session only gook the time of one

day.

. Well, to what minutes did you refer in this meeting

of February 38th, or 27th?
A, September twenty-first, 1985. .
And did these minutes of September Zlst, 1985, refer

to the chiefs?

A, Yes, sir, That is where the Onondaga Nation

presented their lists of chiefs and the Cayugas
did the samé,
Q. And is that the one you read in evidence; is
_ that September twenty-first?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. BROWN: Yes, sir; he read the names.
BY MR. CREGG:
Q. Were you present at the meeting on January tenth,
19257
MR. BROWN: I object to that as repxatition,
and he has already stated that he was not present
at that time,
MR. OREGG: No. He said on December 20th,
1924,
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR, CREGG:
Q. And I ask you whether or not ---
A, (Interrupting) January 10th, 19257
Q. Yes. ,

A. Yes.

155

4 THE WITNESS: They were approved, that is all.
Q. And I will ask you whether or not the minutes

“MR, OREGG: YOU may cross-e xmmine.
of the meeting in December, December 20th, 1924,

THE COURT: Before you cross-examine, we will
were read and approved at that time, and I call

ay take a recess of five minutes.
your attention to this right on the bottom here?

' (Recess taken at 4:10 P. M. Case resumed at
A. This is the Council meeting of the Six

4:15 P. M.)

Nations Of Indians socalled of the Iroquois
Gonfederacy, January tenth, 1928, ---

WR. BROWN (Interrupting): Just aminute.
I object to that.

BY MR. BROWN:

:
CROSS EXAMINATION |
THE WITNESS: Minutes approved ~-—

Q. Mr. Kennedy what was the first meeting of the
MR. CREGG: I didn't ask you to read the whole (

Onondaga Council that you ever attended?
minutes, ;

: A. July twenty-first, 1924.
THE WITNESS: I want to go as far as the 1

| Q. Did you ever attend a councia meeting before that?
approval, .

A. Well, there was no Six Nation Council there.
MR. BROWN; Just answer "yes" or "no",

Q. I don't hear you?
MR. CREGG: Read the minutes down to where it

A. There were none of the Six Nations that were
says approved.

attending them; I don't think we could call them
THE WITNESS: I started to and then he said to

Six Nations meetings,
stop and now you say go ahead. Which am I going to

Q. Well, how long has these 8ix Nations councils been
dot

THE COURT: Go ahead,

157

in existence?
A. Well, I don't know.
I do not hear you. I wish you would speak up a
little louder.
A. What is the question?
Well, how long has these Six Nations councils been
in existence?
A. I couldn't answer that question.

THE COURT: I think he misunderstood your
former question,
MR. BROWN:
I am not referring to any meeting or meetings for
which you have minutes, but my question is: When you
first attended any meeting of the Six Nations
Council, as near as you can remember?
A. Well, I cannot say how many years ago. We were
sent down by the council of the Seneca nation, but
no meeting and didn't nothing come from it.
Well, do you mean by that you never did attend a
meeting until--—
A. (Interrupting) We were there, but the other

nations didn't convene, didn't appear.

Q. I see. Well, did you ever attend any meeting
of the six Nations Council?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Before thie meeting for which you have minutes?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many such meerings did you attend?
A. One, as I know of.

Q. And when was that?
A. I cannot recall just the date, but it was a
meeting down here, down here, hela down here on
the Onondaga reservation,

Q. well, that was previous to the time for whichyou
appear here with any minutes?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And who presided at that meeting?

A. George Thomas.

George Thomas?

A. Yes, sir, George Thomas.

r 2]

Who was the clerk of that meeting?
A, Well, I don't know; I think, if I remeniber

right, I think it was a man by the name of Crouse.

Livingston Crouse; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

- You have not seen him in the court roomf

A. I haven't seen him around.

. About how long is the term of office of clerk of

the Six Nations Council?
A. I don't know anything about it.
You are clerk now?

A. Yes, sir.

. You claim to bet

A. Yes, bir,

. How long is your term of office’

A. The resolution passed at the Tonawanda council
here, at the time I was not present, appointed me
until such time as I am discharged by the Sia

Nations Council.

. Mr. Grouse was clerk when you attended this other

meeting; wasn't he?
A, Well, I will say I don't know what he was;

he was acting clerk then.

. Well, as clerk you have charge of all the minutes,

not only the minutes you have taken, but the minutes

that other clerks have taken; have you not?

A. I am supposed to.

. Well, now, can you tell us, or can you produce

the minutes to show us how Crouse got out of the
place of clerk?

A. No, sir.

. Now, chiefa are made, not in any council meetings,

but in condolences; are they not?

A, So they teil me.

You don't know anything about condolences?

A. No, I never attended one. ,

That is, you never attended a condolence at all?

A. No, sir.

. And your particular trive of Indians claims not

to have chiefs; is that so?

A. No, sir,

There are some Seneca gndians at present who clain
they -are?

A. They olaim that, but they are not chiefs.

Well, that is what you say about that?

A, Yes, I have got to say; you asked me, and I am
rbght.

Well, now, isn't it a fact that a certain branoh

161

of the Seneca Nation claims to have abandoned

this constitutional form of government, this repub-
licant form of governmdnt and have gone back to

the old form?

A, That is what they tell me.

. And they claim to have chiefs?

A. Yes, sir.

. You do not claim to represent that portion of the

nation; do yout

A. No, sir.

. All right. Now, at, the first meeting, other than i)

this meeting where you found Thomas presiding and i
you found Grouse to be clerk that you attended, you
found Andrew Gibson of the Onondaga nation and

Jesse and James Lyons there, didn't you, represent-

ing the Onondaga nation?

A, I don't just remember who was representing each
nation at that meeting.

Your minutes show that?

A. I haven't got those minutes.

. No. TI mean the minutes when you started to act

162

as clerk?

A. Yes, sir.

. Now, on that occasion, you found there Andrew Gibson

and Jesse and James Ly@ns; didn't yout

A. Yes, sir,

. And what authority did they show you for representing

the Ynondaga nation?
A. Well, ---
(Interrupting) What paper did they file with you?

A. They didn't file any paper. |
|

. Who was it signed by?

A. Didn't have any.

That is all you knew about their authority was
what they told you, these three men?

A. Each man, each one is supposed to be a chief
and, therefore, no paper.

They said —--

A, (Interrupting) They produced a document at ~-~
(Interrupting) Just answer the question. They
said they were there to represent the Onondaga
nation?

A. Yes, sir,

163

Is that right?

A, Yes, sir.

Do you know yourself any of the chiefs of the
Onondaga Nation?

A. Oh, I know a few of them,

Which ones do you know?

A. I know Andrew Gibson, Jesse Lyons, Emmett Lyons,

and Ruben Jores, a sub-chief.

. Do you know any of the Greens?

A. Wilson Johnson.

Do you know Charles Green?

A. No, sir.

Newton Green or any of the Greens?

A. No, sir.

. Do you know George Van Every, Junior?

A. No, sir.

. Do you know George Van Every, Senior, in his life

time?

A. No, sir.

. Just turn to your list you read here that was

handed to you as chiefs of the Onondaga nation?

. Did you read from your minutes a list purporting to

164

MR. CREGG: I object to the question in that
form, He said that was the list that was adopted
at this conference as being the list of chiefs of
that particular nation.

MR. BROWN: I just asked him to turn to it.

MR. CREGG: Yes, but I object to your designat~
ing as a list handed to him to be chiefs.

MR. BROWN:

be a list of chiefs of the Onondaga Nation? "Yes",
or "Nott

A. Yes, sir.

That list was handed to you by whom?

A. It was handed in to me by Jesse Lyons,

Will you count those and tell me the number of

names appearing on that sheet as purporting to

be chiefs of the Onondaga Nation?
A, Thirteen names.
What?

A. Thirteen names appear here.

. Does that include sub-chiefs or bodyguards as well?

A, No, sir.

. Well, that makes five?

. Well, sofaras your records show, only five of these

Q. Count them both, please?

yesterday.
A. Some are dead.
A. Yes, sir Q. Several of them are dead, I know, but count all

. Yes, : :

the names?
How many more, if any?

A. (Witness does so
A, Well, there might have been more present, because ( d

. The list contains the names of thirteen principal
T don't know some of these men. . p ™

chiefs and ten sub-chiets; doesn't it?

A. Yes, sir.
twenty-three men ever attended any of these meetings

. Twenty-three in all?
for which you have read minutes; is that sof a enty
had

A. Yes, sir.
A. Of course, we have/several meetings and some of ,

. . oD how many of these twenty-three men
the chiefs don't appear some times, @. Do you know ho ay a

whose names appear on that paper ever attended
Just answer my question, Then sofaras these PP Pee

: of these tings for which you have read
minutes which you have brought here and read are ay meee ene #

; minutes?
concerned, there are the names of enly five of

4. Well, Joshua Jones, Andrew Gibson, Emmett and

these twenty-three men appearing in them who

} Jesse Lyons.
represented the Onondaga Nationt y

. And that is all; isn't it; four out of the twenty-
A. That is all I can think of at the present time. a , , pay

x three, that ever attended one of these meetings?
And the only evidence that you have ever had of , 8

. A. Wilson Johnson.
their authority to represent this nation is what

. Well, at what meeting did Wilson Johnson appear?
they themselves told you; that is true, is it not? a 2 7 pe

A. He was down here the other da day before
A. Yes, sir. Vin COBY

« And asfaras you know, there has been no meeting

of the Onondaga Council to designate the chiefs

to attend these meetings wherever or whatever

they have been; is not th&t so?

A. No, sir; I was not present in the Onondaga
councils,

Well, my question is fair, that you don't know that
you have ever attended any meetings that my of
these men have attended?

A. No, sir.

. Well, now, have there ever been any meerings of any

other persons purporting to be the Onondaga chiefs,
- or purporting to be the Six Nations Council at
any time’

A, Not that I know of,

You have never heard of any?

A, I have heard lots said about what they claim.

+ You have heard something about that, then’

A. Thomas has gone right on claiming to be Head
Chief and Livingston Crouse has gone right on
claiming to be olerk, claiming they are entitled to

be.

. You say you are clerk?

A. Yes, sir.

. And he was clerk before you got in here?

A. I don't know whether he was clerk; he was acting

clerk.

- Well, he was acting clerk whenever you showed upt

A. Yes, sir,

All right. Now, is there any question, Mr. Kennedy,
that the Onondaga nation are the firekeepers of

the Six Nations?

A. I don't think there is.

What does that mean, "Fire Keepers"?

A. Well, as I have said before, I don't know anything
about this different form of government, this chief
form of government,

Well, these are the men that keep the council fire
going; aren't they‘

A. I don't know.

. Well, is that the "fire" that they refer to?

A, No, sir; there was no fire when I went down there.
I see. Well, you don't try to keep any fire now?

A. No, sir.

169

Q. You don't keep the fire any more; do you; there ig
no fire kept any more?

A. No one charged with keeping any fire there that
T saw.

Q. But as you understand the historical effect of it,
there was a council fire in the Long House that
was kept burning continuously; isn't that the way
you understand the history of the thing?

A. So they say,

Q. And the council always hadto meet around that
counoil fire; that is the fact?
A, So they say.

Q. And whenever the council met they had to meet at
the Long House where this sereeny ME was kept,
and that was the old custom and law of the Six Nations?
A. 80 they tell me,

Q. Well, how do you justify your meeting in Salamanca
or some other place, if that ie against the customs
and laws of the Six Nations?

A. Well, I might state it in this way: That I read

@ great deal about other foreign nountries having

170

revolutions, and this idea is a sort of a Bolshevic
movement on the part of one factions of chiefs.
And you represent the Bolsheviks; don't you?

A. No, sir,

» You are not following the old customs and laws,

are yout ‘You are not meeting at the council house
aroumd the council fire, are yout Isn't that the
fact?

4. Well,the State of New York recognized my

government.

. We are not talking about the Seneca Nation, but

about the Six Nations. Now, the Chiefs and those
representatives who attended the Six Nations
Councils where you purported to be secretary and
the minutes of which you read, are not following
the old customs and laws of the Six Nations;

are they?

A, As far as they can.

You are not meeting at the Long House and around
the council fire; are yout

A. We were down there the other day.

. Well, you were out to Salamanca too; weren't yout

172

A. We were authorized to.

attended, Gibson and Lyons and Joshua Jones; ever

Who authorized you?
notify any of those?

A. Joshua dones.
A, The Old Six Nations Counoil ---

; Q, What about the rest of the twenty-three chiefs
Q. (Interrupting) Just answer the question. |
. of the Onondaga Nation; did they give you any
MR. OREGG: I submit he be permitted to complete
authority?
his answer.
A, I don't know whether they have got anything to
THE COURT: Repeat the question,
f say about it.
(The stenographer repeated the question as
< Q. And they are not going to have anything to say
follows: |
about it if you can help it; are they?
"Question: Have you ever notified these
A, Well, surely, I haven't anything to say about
select few that have attended, Gibson and
it.
Lyons and Joshua Jones; ever notify any a
' Q. Have you as clerk ever notifed all the Onondaga
of thoset") :
chiefs that you were ever going to have any
MR. CREGG: I object to that. The evidence i
| of these meetings anywhere’
shows that each of the nationsslects its own ‘
} MR. CREGG: I object to that.
representatives to thse conferences. There \
i BY MR. BROWN:
isn't any evidence tere that he is required to
1 Q. Have you ever notified these twenty-three Onondaga
notify anybody. :
chiefs, whose names appear in your own minutes of
THE COURT: He may answer by telling us
these meetings?
whether or not he knows, |
i : A. Not all of them,
THE WITNESS: Well, as far as being clerk is °
Q. Have’ you ever notified these select few that have

173

concerned, I never notify anybody.

MR. BROWN: That is all,

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CREGG:
Q. It was not your duty to notify them?
A.No, sir, I don't think it is.
MR. OREGG: That is all.
MR. BROWN: That is all,

MR. CREGG: I will call J. Warren Brayley.

o WARREN BRAYLGE ¥,
called as a witness on behalf of the defendants and
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. CREGG:
Q. Mr. Brayley, you are an Indian of what Nation?

4. T uscaroras,
Q. How old are you?

A, Twenty-three,

174

. And what office do you bold on the Tuscarora

reservation?
A. Just chief at the present time.
You are one of the chiefs on the reservation?

A. Yes, sir.

- How many chiefs do you have there?

A. Fourteen,

What is your system of government there? Do you
select your chiefs from the various clans on the
reservationt

A. Yes, from each clan.

‘and is that the same as on the Onondaga reservation,
the same ne thod ?

A. It is the same method, I suppose, but they have

different regulations.

- How longhave you been a chief of the Tuscaroras?

A. For seven years,

. And are you familiar with the method of selecting

and Taising chiefs on the Onondaga reservation?
A, Similar system to what we have on our own,

Well, is it just the same method as followed by yout

A. Same method,

The same method?

A. Yes, sir.

. ANd can you tell us in your own way how chiefs

are selected and raised; is that what you call it,
raising them?

A. Yes, constituted with authority and power.

Whq first selects the chief?

A. Well, there has to be a death or a deposition,
Well, assuming there is a death or a vacanoy;
first, letme ask you, can you create a vacancy

by cutting down a chief?

A. That has been done.

. And what are the causes of cutting down, or for what

causes may a chief be cut down?

A. For something detrimental to the welfare and
interest of the tribe, some act they have done.
Drunkenness or abandonment of family; are those
causes for which he may be cut down?

A. Such habitual conduct; yes, sir.

Or anything that is not consclonable or proper?

A. Yes, sir.

Or, in other words, doing anything that is detri-
mental to the tribe that he represents, or the clan
that he represents?

A. Yes, sir.

Now, assuming that there is a vacancy in the office
of chief, what does the clan mother do, if anything,

or the clan mothers, if anything?

A, They call for a meeting of the clan,

. And who is represented at that meeting of the clan?

A. Well, whichever clan it happened to be.

. Well, suppose it is the Snipe Glan, who is represent-

ed at that meeting; is it the adult women of that
clan that meet?

A. Yes, of the Snipe Clan.

The women of the Snipe clan would meet?

A, Meet in this gathering. ,

And then select someone to fill that vacancy?

A, THey select a name to recommend to the council.
I see. And by whom is that name carried to the
council?

A. By the clan mother,

177

. And she is the oldest woman of that clan?

A. Of that clan; yes, sir.

. Now, does that person who is selected have to be a

member of that clan by descent?

A. Yes, sir.

. And descent follows the female of the clan?

A. Yes, sir, that is the custom.

And after the name is selected and given to the
clan mother, who does the clan mother notify?

A. It goes before the council,

Of the nation?

A. Of the nation.

And, that is, she presents that name at a meeting
of the council of the nation?

A. Yes, sir, she comes in herself,

And then what if the council refuses to approve?

A. They will have to goback.

. And select another name?

A, Seleot some other name.
But, if the council approves that name, then what

is done?

A. Then the chairman of that nation will send down

178

to the Fire Keepers and notify them we are ready to
raise a chief and select a name. :

Q. And by the Fire Keepers you mean the Onondaga.
Indians?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is that message delivered to the Chief of the
Onondagas ¢
A. Well, they go ---

q. (Interrupting) As the head of the nation?
A, What is that?

Q. To whom of the Onondagas is the message
delivered; to the chief, the Head Chief?
A. Head chief of the Onondagas.

Q. And then what does the Head Chief of the Ynondagas
dot
A. He notifies the Wampum Keeper.

Q. And asks the Wampum Keeper to fix a date for a
aanaovenset
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that right?

A, Yes, sir,

179

And who has been the Head Chief of the Unondagas
for a number of years last?

A. George Thomas used to be.

When was het

A. When I first took’ office.

. George Thomas was Head Chief of the Six Nations

then?

A. Yes, sir,

But, who was Head Chief of the Onondagas?

A, Andrew Gibson.

And how long has Andrew Gibson been Head Chief

of the Onondagas?

A. Well, I have heard of his name being mentioned
for years before 1 was put up for chief.

And you have been in for eight years; you say?

A. JUst about; I will be in June.

So Andrew Gibson was Head Chief before that of the
Onondagas?

A. Yes, sir,

Now, to what nation does the Wampum Keeper belong?

A, The Oneida Nation.

180

And who is the Wampum Keeper?

A. Adam Thomas, I think his name is.

And how long hashe been Wampum Keeper to your
knowledge?

A. Well, my connection with him has been for several
condolences back.

Was he Wampum Keeper when you first became Chief,

as you recall it?

A. I don't know at that time.

- You don't know at thet time?

A, No, sir.

Now, after the Wampum Keeper fixes a date for a
condolence, what is the next step; are the various
councils notified, or the various nations?

A, The nations are all notified. Well, it would be
better to explain this way: If the Tuscaroras

wanted to raise a chief and we sent to the

Fire Keepers to ask for this chieftain to be

Talsed, that constitutes the place for the condolence.
That is, the condolence is then held on the Tuscarora
reservation?

A. Yes, sir.

181

Q. Now, is that a rule; is that a rule and custom

of the Six Nations?

A. That has always been the custom,

» To have the condolence held on the reservation

where the chief is to be raised?

A, Yes, sir,

. All right.

A. And when the Wampum Keeper sends this notice out
to the other tribes they. get a chance, if they have
any chiefs to fill, they have got @ chance to come
in at the condolence, and always there is a lapse
of time,

I see. And does the Wampum Keeper notify three
nitions and the Head Chief of the Onondagas the
other three?

A. That is the way it is done to my knowledge.

On the condolences?

A. Yes, sir.

And then the chiefs are raised at that condolence?

A. Yes, sir,

And is that the only way a chief can be lawfully

182

raised in any of these reservations?

A. Yes, sir, the only way he can be constituted

into power.

. Be constituted into power?

A. Yes, sir,
Is that a condolence regularly called in the manner
you have specified?

Ay Yes, sir.

. Ana the Wampum Keeper's notice must fix the date

for the condolence?

A. That is his duty.

. And the Head Fire Keeper,or the Head Chief of

the Onondagas must request him to fix that datet

A. Yes, sir; he notifies him. ,

Now, what ie the procedure where a chief disobeys
the mandates of the council, or is unfaithful to
the council or usurps the powers; how is he cut
down?

A. The condolence mother has the right to come in
the council herself and speak, or she can designate

somebody to come in and reduce him inpower.

Q. And by "council" do you mean a "condolence?

A. A cOndolence,

Q. At a condolence?
A, Yes, sir.

Q. And must this regular condolence take action before
he can be reduced?
A, Yes, sir.

Q. And so that he is the chief until he is regularly
put out of office at one of these condolences?
A. Yes, sir,

THE COURT: Now, let me see. You say such a
matter has to oie pefore a condolence and not a
council?
THE WITNESS: No, sir; a meeting of a condo-

lence is only for raising or deposing a chief.
It is not for general business. General business
comes in a council and not a condolence.

BY MR. CREGG:

Q. Well, is there two separate bodies, one a council
of the Six Nations and another a condolence?
A, Yes, sir.

Q. And the condolence is for the purpose of making or

deposing chiefs?
A, Yes, sir, it is for two services.
One for making and another for deposing?

A. Yes, sir,

. And that is the only business that is transacted

at a condolence?

A. Yes, sir.

. Now, when there is any other business of the Six

Nations to be transacted, then the council of the
Six Nations is called; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

And, now, who is it that attends the coridolence
from each nation; do all the chiefs attend or do
the chiefs designate. some members to attend?

A. At any meeting of the Six Nations there is
always a certain number appointed to be present as
the official delegates, whether it be one, two or

more.

- Well, if there was a condolence to be held on the

Cattamaugus reservation, the Onondaga Nation of

Indians, the Chiefs of that nation get together and

eee

appoint whom they want to represent them at that
condolence?

A. Surely and they pay for his trip.

And pay for his trip?

A. Yes, sir.

And that is true on the other reservations as well?
A. Yes, sir.

And ls that true in a council of the Six Nations?

A. Yes, sir.

. That ies, the various counolls name whom they want

to attend the councils of the Six Nations*

A. Yes, sir, ,

Who is entitled, or what Nation is entitled to the
Head Chief of the Six Nations?

A. Well, sofaras my knowledge goes it has been the
Onondagas.

The Head Chief then goes to the Onondagas as the
Fire Keepers?

A. But, in looking through history I find the
Mohawks have had Head ghiefs, at the time of William

Penn,

{i
\
\
I
:

. The Mohawks have had the Head Chief?

A. Yes, sir.

And so that, according to that, there is no
heriditary right in the Onondagas to the Head
Chief of the Six Nations?

A. Not in tracing up past history.

. Now, it is not necessary, is it, for the Head Chief

of the Six Nations to be a Chief on any Reservation?

A. I think he should be,

. You think they should be?

A. Yes, because, if you have a. Six Nations council,

anybody tobe taking part in it has got to be a chief.

. And so, according to your version of it, the Head

Chief of the Six Nations should be a chief, or must
be a Chief of someone of the other Nations?

A. Because a man that is raised and constituted to
a chief has wampum which he can take in a meeting;

if’you are not a chief you do not have wampum and

you cannot get the floor,

+» Now, just explain a little there; what is this

wampum?

A.Well, I will show you some that I have. (Produces

be given when I give that string of wampum at the

condolence.

I see. Now, let me see if I get this right. The
office of chief in each particular clan has a
particular name?

A. Yes, sir,

And that name is relayed on from one chief to the
other; is that right?

A, Yes, sir. ,

And, now, when a chief is owt down, the name is
taken away from him; is it?

A, It is barred from him at that time.

. What is that?

A, It is taken away from him;
At that time?
A. The name is taken away from him by that clan

at that time,

. And is the wampum taken away from him at that time

when he is cut down?
A. Yes, and then it goes to the clan mother when

she takes the name away from him and deposes him.

same).
Wampum, then, is a string of beads such as you have
exhibited here?

A. Yes, sir,

. And is that the thing that ~ or, is that the

credential that a chief has?

A. Yes, sir, He has to have wampum and that goes to

the Wampum Keeper to prove he has a name.

And is each chief designated by a special name?
A. Yes, sir.

Not his own name?

A. No, sir. He oarries his old Indian name,

Oh. He carries his own Indian neme?

A, Yes, sir, and every tribe. JI oarry on the name
of the man that was before me in my clan.

Well, for instance, what ie your title as chief;
what name do you carry?

A. It means "My Voice Shall Go On Forever"; that
is the translation of it.

But, that is not your own name?

A. No, sir. That is the Indian name, and that is to

189

. And in order to constitute a chief at a condo-

lence it is necessary to deliver one of these
wampums to him?

A. Yes, sir.

. At the condolence?

A. Yes, sir,

. How is the Chief of the Six Nations selected?

A. I bave never went through the ceremonies myself

and never attended any.

. Never attended any?

A. No, sir.

+ Now, were you present at a condolence that was

called on the Onondaga Reservation in March, 19244
A. Yes, sir. ,
What action was taken at that condolence in referenwe
to George Thomas?
A. George Thomas was deposed at that time,

MR. BROWN: I object to that, unless it appears
who was there and how it was called and what there
was about it.

MR. OREGG: This is the condolence that Chief

190

Andrew Gibson related that he called in the regular
way and stated that he did not attend the condolence.

MR. BROWN: Let us have the details,

THE COURT; Tell who was there.

MR. OREGG: The details he cannot give you
because Andrew Gibson has given them,

THE COURT: Let us know who was there,

BY MR. CREGG:

Q.Do you recall who was present on that occasion?

A, Yes, sir,
Tell ust
A. Well, first I must name.one of our new chiefs

that we brought to have raised to chieftainship,

. And who was that?

A. At that council,

That was a chief from your reservation?
A. From our own reservation.

And what was his name?

A. His name was Rickard,

And who else was there?

A. George Thomas was there.

191

Were any minutes kept of that meeting, sofaras you
know, by anybody and written out?

A. I don't know. I did not pay any particular
abteatEah to that at the time. We were notified of
the meeting in writing by Adam Thomas.

Well, was it a general rule and custom not to keep
records of those meetings?

A, Well, Indian records are very lax; the Indians
are very lax in their records.

Isn't it one of the traditions of the Indians, to
do the opposite of the whiteman, to keep their
records in their heads instead of on papers?

A. That has always been the custom, ,

That has always been the custom?

A. Yes, sir,

. Now, tell us who else was present at that condolence?

A. Phoebe Lyons was there, and some more of the men
of our own tribe, but they were not there as
chiefs but as individuals of the Tuscarora nation,
besides a good many of the onondaga Chiefs were

there.

. Now, is it a fact that the Head Chief of the

Onondagas is an assistant to the Head Chief of
the Six Nations’

A.He has always acted as such to my knowledge.
He has always acted as such?

A. Vice-president,

. Vice-president of the council?

A. Yes, sir.

. And in the absence of the Head Chief of the Six

Nations, is it the duty of the Head Chief of the
Onondagas to call the council together, or to notify
them?

A. Yes, sir.

And to preside at the meeting?

A. Yes, sir.

. And that is as you have always understood the

Indian custom to be?

A. &nd that is what I have seen.

Now, who called this condolence together on March
eighth, 19247

A, I had a’written communication from Adam Thomas.

193

You had a written communication from Adam Thomas?
A. Yes, sir. At that time I was Chairman of the
Tuscarora “ation,

By "Chairman" do you mean "Head Chief" of the
Tuscarora Nation?

A. Head Chief; yee, sir.

And you had a written communication from Adam Thomas
to attend that meeting?

A. Notifying me of that date for a condolence,
And Adam Thomas was then Wampum Keeper?

A. Yes, sir.

Is he an Oneida Indian?

A, Oneida Indian, residing on the Onondaga

Reservation.

. Residing on the Onondaga Reservation?

A. Yes, sir,

. Now, after you got there, who presided at the

meeting? If you recall.
A. I think we started out with - I believe we went
up to George's house at that time and that is where

they started the ceremonies,

. George Thomas' house?

A. Yes, sir.

I see. And where did the ceremony end?

A. At the Council House,

And there is a Council House on the Onondaga
Reservation?

A. Yes, sir.

. And is that what they call the Long House?

A. Yes, sir.

And do you know the origin of the Long House?
A. Only what we have through legend.

What?

A, Only what we have through our Indian legend,

. All right. What is that?

A. That is the place where they have for their
meetings and keep the fires and hold their councils.
And when do you say it was they established the
Long House?

A. Oh, from time immemorial.

. Now, tell us just what was said and done at that

condolence?

195

Tell us what was said and done there on March eighth,
1924, on the Onondaga Reservation?

A, The whole thing?

Yes,

A. Well, we had this ceremony to raise these chief-
tains up to chieftainship, and I forget the names of
one or two young men that were raised to chieftains
among the Onondagas at that time. We had one.

And during the ceremony, there is a place in the
ceremony where there is a place to depose or raise
any questions in regards to chieftainship, and when
we come to that proceeding, there was a lull in the
ceremony, and Phoebe Lyons rose to her feet and talked
in Onondaga language and all I know was what was
interpreted to me, and she asked to have George
Thomas deposed because he did not do according to

her mandates.

. And what happened after that?

A. We went through with the ceremony and deposed him
and then he got up to his feet and he said no
matter what we did he is going to tontinue what he

was doing,

. And he was right there present at the time?

A. Yes, sir.

. And you say there are two separate ceremonies, one

for raising chiefs and another for deposing them?

A. Yes, sir; it is in the same ceremony,
But two different forms in.the same ceremony?

A. Oh, yes, two different forms in the same oeretiony:
Now, will you tell us briefly just what is done

in this condolence to raise a chief, without going
into 1t too much in detail?

A. Well, the clan gets together and appoint their
man and the name is forwarded to the ---
(Interrupting) No, Mr. Brayley, you have been all
over that. We are now in the condolence, The
condolence is already regularly called and you are
right in the oondolense, Now, tell us just what the
ritual is in the condolence?

A. Oh. They start out with a ceremony which goes
back into the past, the condolence, and then they

go back where they get a Long House, they have a

song out of respect to the dead chiefs and --~

Q. And then after that, if the

(Interrupting) Do you open the condolence with

a prayer?

A. Yes, sir, and songs.

- And do you claim to be a Christian?

A. Myself?

. Do you claim to be Christians, follow some religion‘

A. Yes, sir.

. And what religion is that?

A. Baptist,

. And after the condolence is opened just what is

done with the Wampum? Tell us briefly what

the ceremony is completing the raising of the chief?
A. Well, they have the wampum and pass it from one
side of the house to the other and then they collect
it again and the Wampum Keeper takes it and that

ends the service,

. And then is the aWampum delivered to the chief who

is raised?
A. No. The Wampum Keeper keeps that. That is his

proof,

re is anyone ‘to be

deposed, there is another ceremony gone through
in which that person is deposed’

A. Yes, sir.

. And that ceremony was gone through at that time

with reference to Adam Thomas - or George Thomas!
A. George Thomas; yes, sir,

Now, just what did he say after that ceremony was
completed, when he got up on his feet?

A. He said: "It didn't make any difference what you
people do, I am going to continue as I think is
best",

And was there any reason given at that time why

he was to be deposed?

A. Well, dwring the talk it was all translated, you
see, and the talk was in Onondaga language, I

didn't understand it.

. Were you present at the Six Nation council held on

December 20th, 1984, at the Tonawanda reservation?
A. Yes, sir.
And did you keep these minutes?

A, No, sir, I did not. A. 0. Rose(?); I remember

199

him.

. How is the Head Chief of the Six Nations made

Head Chief at a conference or condolence of the
Si x Nations?
A. Well, the Condolence of the Fire Keepers is

approved by the Six Nations,

. Approved by the Six Nations?

A. Yes, six,

» And were you present at a meeting of the Council

of the Six Nations on October twentieth, 19347
A. No, I don't think I was,
Held at .the Onondaga Nation reservation?

A. No.

- You don't think you were?

A. I am very aure I was not.

. Were you present on September twenty-fifst, 192B7

A. Iwas in the hospital at that time,

Well, after George Thomas was deposed, who was named

Chief, Head Chief of the Six Nations; if you knowt
MR, BROWN: I object to that as calling for a

conclusion. TI have no objection to this witness

testifying to anything that he saw and heard, when

he was present at any meeting which was called,
whether regular or not. I am perfectly willing he
tell all that he aaw and heard,

MR. CREGG: He said he was deposed on March
eighth.

MR, BROWN; Well,if he was present at any
meeting at which anything was chaimed to have been
done, all right.

THE COURT: I understand he was not at the
meeting,

MR. OREGG: Not on October 20th, 1984, but I
am asking him now about September Zlst, 1025.

THE COURT: Very well,

MR, OREGG:

. Have you been present at any council of the Six

Nations since George Thomas was deposed on March
twentieth, 19247

A. Several of them, I think.

. And who presided at those councils since that time?

A. I think Andrew Gibson was acting chairman,

. Acting chairman?

A. Yes, sir. At Salamanca I think he was,

. And was there later Somebody named Head Chief of

the Six Nations?

A. Yes, sir,

» And when was that?

A, That was about a year or so after that time;
along about ~~~

(Interrupting) And have you been at meetings of the
council of the Six Nations Since the new Head Chief
was made t

A. Yes, siz, I think 1 have,

. And did he preside at those meetings?

A. I think I was at one at Onondaga, or the Tonawanda

Reservation,

+ The Tonawanda Reservation?

A. Yes, sir,

+ And who was that?

A. Joshua Jones,
MR. OREGG: That is all,

THE COURT: Hog long a cross~examination?

MR, BROWN: I will have quite a bit,

THE COURT: Then we will take a recess at

this time until ten o'clock tomorrow morning.

OR R OR ROK
(WHEREUPON at 4:55 P. M., a recess was taken
until THURSDAY MORNING, March first, 1938,

at ten o'clock, same plate.)

eK OR ak

MORNING SHESSTON,
SYRACUSE ,NEW YORK, THURSDAY, MARCH 1, 1928, 10;00 A.M.
PRESIDING:
HONORABLE FREDERICK H, BRYANT,
FEDERAL JUDGE.
APPEARANCES:

(Same as before)

J. WARREN BRAYLEY,
resumed the stand as a witness on behalf of the defen-
dants, testified as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. Just where is your home, Mr. Brayley?
A. Well, my home is on the Tuscarora Reservation.
In the winter time I have to go up and live in
furnished rooms at Niagara Palle; my girl attends
High School.

Q. Well, now, the Tuscarora reservation is where?

304

A, It is about ten miles, I would say, or eight
miles to the corner of it, or southeast, from Niagara

Falle.

. And that is your permanent residence, though in the

winter time you reside in the city of Niagara Falls?
A. DUring the winter; yes, sir.

And it is your understanding thatall the Six Nations
are governed by the same laws and usages and customs;
is it not?

A. To a certain extent.

Well, in the making and unmaking of chiefs, for in-
stance, you follow the same ceremony?

A. Yes, ceremonies.

And the same rules govern’

A. In that line, yes, sir.

That is, your nation has clans the same as the
Onondaga nation?

A. Yes, sir.

. And your chiefs are nomBnated by the condolence

mothers of the clans?

A. Yes, sir,

. And that nomination is passed on by the tribal or

natiOnal council before being presented to a condo-
lence?

A. Yes, sir,

. How many votes are needed to ratify the nomination

of a condolence mother in respect to a chief?
A. Well, the vote would be governed by what we call

the quorum,

. Yes?

A. Now, in our council, we have a quorum on unimpor-

tant matters, that is, some small trivial matters,
four chiefs could meet and constitute a quorum,
and five chiefs, or so, in a quorum for all that ie

important.

. Well, suppose this came before a council of chiefs

at which all were present of your nation, how many
votes would be necessary to ratify the chief?

A. A majority of the council, I think.

A majority?

A. Yes, sir,

- And the same form is followed with respect to the

oOo

deposition of the chiefs; that is, the condolence

mother first presents it to the council of the
partioular tribe or nation?

A. Yes, sir.

But the majority of the chiefs have to agree to her

recommendation before it is presented to the

condolence of the six nations; is that true?

A. Well, as I say, she presents a name and the council
has the right to accept or reject.

Her recommendation?

A, Her tecommendation.

And that applies both to making and unmaking

chiefs?

A. Yes, sir,

Now, it was not the intention of any part of your
evidence yesterday to indicate that you were ever
present at a meeting of the Onondaga council where
the question of deposing George Thomas was presented;
is not that true? ,

4. Proposing George Thomas for what?

Deposing him?

207

A. Deposing him?

Yes,

A. I was present when he was deposed,

Did you mean to say that you were present at a
meeting of the Onondaga Council when that was done?
A. Np; that was not a meeting of the Onondaga

Council.

. That is, asfaras you know the Onondaga Council have

never acceded to this deposition proposed by Paula
Isaacs; you have no knowledge of that yourself,
have you?

A. No such knowledge come before me.

. ALL tight. Now, did I understand you to say that

you were an attendant of or a member of the Baptist
Church?

A. Yes, sir.

. There isn't any rule that you know of which forbids

@man adopting the Christian religion and being
a chief among the six nations; is there?
A. I would not say that because the rules and

usages among our tribe in the running of our business

208

are not those of any other nation,

Well, Chief, I think you can answer the question

if you consider it a minute. There ks not any rule
you know of that prevents a Christian from being

a Chief of an Indian Nation; that is, you do not
know of any such rule yourself? ,

A. I never read any such rule,

All right. Now, let us talk for a minute, Mr. Brayley,

about the claimed hereditary rights of the Onondaga
Nation to this Head Chieftainship. As I understood
your testimony yesterday, you saidl it was claimed as
you went back in history that somebody not an
Onondagan had been Head Chief of the Six Nations?

A. That is what history records.

Well, is it a claim that has been recognized as

long as you have had any knowledge of it, that the
Onondaga Nation should have the Head Chief?

A. Not during my life time.

. Well, you mean by that, that they always have hed it

during your life time?

A. Yes, sir, in my experience,

Now, what about this Mohawk that was Head Chief;

when did you say that was?

A, That was at a time that William Penn made a
treaty in the State of Pennsylvania covering ‘the
territory in the city of Philadelphia.

And that was 1600 and something?

A. Yes, in 1600,

Was it about 16387

4. I would not say positively about that.

But it was sometime in the Seventeenth Century;
1600 and something?

A. Yes, sir,

. And the tradition is that the man who signed that
treaty as Head Chief was not an Onondagan, but a
Mohawk?

A. Yes, sir,

Ana, of course, that is simply tradition, like these
other things?

A. That is all,

You are not able to say whether he was an Onondagan
or a Mohawk; are you?

A. Hardly.

Q. What is the length of the term of office of Head
Chief of the Six Nations?

A. Similar toa sachem chief ina lower tribe.

Q. That is, he holds his office for life, unless
removed for misconduct?
A, Yes, sir.

Q. What is the term of office of clerk of the council
of the Six Nations of the socalled Confederacy?

A. During my experience in chieftainship with the

Six Nations, only Mr. Kennedy has been known as a

regular clerk, ‘Themhas &lways been acting clerks
until lately.

Q. That is, this man Kennedy, who was sworn yesterday,
has been the only one you have known who claimed
to be clerk for any particular time?

A. The only clerk that was actually in office.
The others only acted. Orouse has acted, when I
first went there, as an acting clerk.

Q. Well, you started attending meetings of the Council
about what time?

A. What time was it that Everett was around here?

I think it was 1921 that we had a council here

before we went to Albany,

. And you attended how many council meetings before

you attended this one where Kennedy claimed to be
clerk?

A. No, I attended numerous ones. I did not keep
track of them,

And at all of these council meetings Thomas presid-
ed as Head Chief?

A. Most of them.
And Crouse acted as clerk; did he?

A. Grouse?

. Yes,

A. Yes, he usually attended after the meeting

I told you of.

. He was clerk at every one of the meetings until

the time you saw Kennedy there?
A. Yes, sir, he was acting olerk.
MR. CREGG: I submit he has answered the

question,

BY MR, BROWN:

And that was true with every meeting up until the
time Kennedy commenced to act as clerk?
A. No, sir.

Well, who else sotied as clerk at any time?

A. I was made a temporary clerk myself.

- On what occasion was that?

A, At the council meeting out on this reservation

one time and one time on the Tonawandé reservation.

» You don't remember the dates of those meetings; do

your
A. I have them in my memorandum book, but not here,
I see. Now, how long did you say you had been a
chief?

A, 1920, since July,

. And did 1 understand you tosay there were fourteen

chiefs in your tribe or nation?

A. Yes, sir.

And how long have there been fourteen chiefs?

A. Well, we have had clans ever since we come from

North Oarolina; that is back in 1700 we have got

213

written records.

Q.But it is a matter of tradition that you did not

formerly have chiefs and you have only had chiefs
recently?

A. No, sir; we have got five chiefs - one dead now -
we have got four chiefs that are fifty-four years

chieftains in our tribe.

.» You have those men nowt

A. They are living now, today.

And have you been attending condolences during all
the time you have been a chief?

A. I think there has been three conddienoes since
I was put in as chief and I have attended two of
them.

. Well, now, you were asked yesterday about Adam
Thomas, and I think you said that you had never
known of his being active until late years; is
that right?

AY T don't know what you mean. Pertaining to what?
Well, you were asked about Adam Thomas and his ,

posibition as Wampum Keeper and I Understood you to

say, and I may be wrong about it, but I understood
you to say that you had not known of his being
active until withinlate years; is that right?

A. Well, that is my experience with the condolences.
Yes.

A. Since I was chief,

Was he present at the condolence at which you were
made chief?

A. He had the calling of it.

Well was he there’ Did you see him or know anything
about him?

A. He must have been there, because he received my
Wampum. They were all strangers to me,

Let us just confine your testimony, Mr. Brayley,

to your recollection; do you remember his teing
there at the condolence in whioh you were made chief?
A, He might or he might not; I was not introduced,
Then whoever received your Wampum,you don't know?

A. No, sir.

. Probably an Oneida Indian?

215

A. Supposed to be.

And if he received your Wampum, how is it you have
this Wampum you displayed here yesterdayto the
Court?

A. The Wampum I put up, and everybody puts up when
he becomes a chief, is a small string of Wampum,

It is Aq single strand of Wampum about two or three
inches long?

A. Yes; because when that is put up, it is generally

gone; you never get it back again.

. And where did you get this Wampum?

A. From our clan mother,
Did you producethis other Wampum that you showed
here?

A. This is not the wampum called clan wampum,

. ANd it is not the wampum that is used at the condo-

lence whan you were being raised as a chieft

A. No, sir, I cannot use it again, any more,
This wampum which is used, this single strand of
wampum,has no distinguishing mark;has it?

A, Yes, sir, it has a mark,

Q.Do you mean you could go wherever this wampum was

and identify and select your own wampumt
A. Why, my uncle is an old man in the chieftainship
really and he fixed the wampum, and he fixed it just
like the man previously ahead of me holding the
position of chieftain that I succeeded,and just like
him wampum.

Q. Yest
A, And in placing the black and the white beads on
the string.

Q. Well, how many beads are there on a chieftain's
wampum string?
A. No special number.

Q. Well, about how many?
A. I should imagine a dozen on each string; I had

two strings on mine,

And now you would be able to identify and select
your own wampum?

A. I don't know; I don't think I would; he fixed
it up for me.

Q. Do you thimk Adam Thomas could look at any piece of

wampum that he has and read your name by the arrange-

ment of the different colors of these beads?
A. Yes, he should have some way of keeping track,
Q.I appreciate he should have some way of keeping track;
but from your knowledge of what he keeps, could he?
A. I don't know that.
Q. I see. Is there some tribal relationship between
the Tuscaroras and the Oneidas?
A, In the formation of the Long House there is,
Q. And what is that relationship?
A. Brothers, acting for their children, the Tuscaroras.
Q. Does the Oneida Nation sort of act as guardians over
the Tuscaroras?
A.Not entirely,
Q. I mean in the council of the Long House?
A. And the Senecas; we also have the Senecas to speak
for us,
Q. Well, it has been the custom that, for the Tuscaroras
to speak in council, they must speak for them?
A, Hither one, the Oneidas or the Senecas,

MR. BROWN: That is all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

MR. OREGG:

Does each Chieftainship have a speotal Indian

name designating him in the council?

A. Yes, sir.

And does each Chieftainship have a special wampum

that is transferred from one chief to the other;

when one chief dies or is deposed, is that same

wampum used to raise another chief in his place?

A, I have never seen anything else in my experience
in our tribe. That string wampum stands for the
chief tainship and it must be the same thing.

That stands for the chieftainship itself?

A. Yee, sir.

No matter who holds the office?

A, No matter who the individual is.

I see. And the Indian name is perpetuated in

the Chieftainship?

A. Yes, sir.

No matter who the man is that is put in to fill that

office?

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