C 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2 ORLANDO DIVISION
3
4
5
6 THEODORE ROBERT BUNDY...
7 PLAINTIFF CASE # 86-958- CIV-ORL-18
- - _ TT yoeat(Ci
Docketed i
12 LOUIE L. WAINWRIGHT,
13 SECRETARY FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS,
14 DEFENDANT
15
16
- TRANSCRIPT OF EVIDENTIARY HEARING
17
: BEFORE THE HONORABLE G. KENDALL SHARP, J
~ 18
= 19
_ 20 DECEMBER 15, 1987
g
21
22 ANTHONY ROLLAND AND EMERY C. TOMPKINS
R.P.R., C.S.R., C.P., C.M.
a 23 OFFICIAL UNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
80 N. HUGHEY AVENUE
26 ~ ROOM 612
ORLANDO, FLORIDA 32801
25
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION
APPEARANCES:
JAMES E. COLEMAN, ESQ.
POLLY J. NELSON, ESO.
JOHN BYRON SANDAGE, ESO.
WILMER, CUTLER AND PICKERING
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20037
COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF
MARK MENSER, ESQ.
RICHARD DORAN, ESO.
JAMES YORK, ESQ.
WALTER MEGINNIS, ESQ.
DEPARTMENT OF LEGAL AFFAIRS _
TALLAHASSEE, -FLORIDA 32399
COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANT
4163
Pas ot
24
25
164
(AT THIS TIME THE JUDGE ENTERS THE COURTROOM).
THE COURT: GOOD MORNING LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
MR. COLEMAN, ARE YOU READYU TO PROCEED?
MR. COLEMAN: YOUR HONOR, WE CALL DOCTOR DOROTHY
LEWIS.
DOROTHY OTNOW LEWIS, MD.,
HAVING BEEN DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS:
MR. COLEMAN: BEFORE I BEGIN WITH DOCTOR
LEWIS'S TESTIMONY, I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE INTO EVIDENCE
EXHIBITS TWENTY THROUGH TWENTY SIX FROM THE TESTIMONY
YESTERDAY OF MR. LUBECK.
THE COURT: ANY OBJECTION?
MR. MENSER: NO, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THEY WILL BE ADMITTED. —
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. DOCTOR LEWIS, WHAT IS YOUR PRESENT OCCUPATION, PLEASE?
A. I AM A PSYCHIATRIST. I AM A PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY __
AT THE NEW YORK UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE.
©. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN EMPLOYED THERE?
A. FOR ABOUT EIGHT AND HALF YEARS. 7
QO. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER PROFESSIONAL AFFILIATIONS?
A. YES, I AM CLINICAL PROFESSOR AT THE YALE UNIVERSITY
CHILD STUDY CENTER.
nn
pepe
| die ns |
oN :
ans
Rel
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT -— COLEMAN
4165
Q. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOUR DUTIES ARE AT THE NEW YORK
UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL?
A. I TEACH, I PARTICULARLY I TEACH DIAGNOSTIC EVALUATION,
AND I DO RESEARCH AND PRIMARILY MY RESEARCH IS ON
PSYCHIATRIC AND THE NEUROLOGICAL AND THE FAMILY ASPECTS OF
(Finoines.) Vi lence ”
Ne _
Q. AND CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU DO AS A CLINICAL
PROFESSOR?
A. AT THIS POINT I DON’T HAVE VERY MANY DUTIES. I GIVE
TALKS FROM TIME TO TIME AND MAY TEACH A CLASS FROM TIME TO
TIME, AND--
QO. IN THE COURSE OF YOUR EMPLOYMENT, DO YOU HAVE OCCASION
TO EVALUATE PATIENTS?
A. YES.>
QO. FOR PSYCHIATRIC PROBLEMS?
A. YES.
Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A PRACTICING PSYCHIATRIST?
A. I FINISHED MY TRAINING IN, AT THE END OF 1969, AND WAS
BOARD CERTIFIED IN ADULT PSYCHIATRY I BELIEVE IN 1972.
oO. AND HAVE YOU BEEN PRACTICING PSYCHIATRY SINCE THEN?
A. YES.
Q- COULD YOu BRIEFLY DESCRIE YOUR EDUCATIONAL
BACKGROUND?
A. I WAS GRADUATED FROM RADCLIFF COLLEGE OF HARVARD
UNIVERSITY IN 1959, AND THEN WAS GRADUATED FROM THE YALE
LEWIS - DIRECT — COLEMAN
166
SCHOOL OF MEDICINE IN 1963, AND I DID MY INTERNSHIP AND MY
ADULT PSYCHIATRY TRAINING AND MY CHILD PSYCHIATRY TRAINING
AT YALE.
Q. AND YOU JUST DESCRIBED YOUR INTERN SHIPS?
7,
A. YES, ACTUALLY WHEN I FINISHED MEDICAL SCHOOL I SPENT A
YEAR DOING A NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF MENTAL HEALTH
FELLOWSHIP, AND THEN I DID AN INTERNSHIP IN PEDIATRICS AT
YALE NEW HAVEN HOSPITAL.
I THEN BID MY ADULT PSYCHIATRY TRAINING AT THE
WEST HAVEN V A HOSPITAL, AND AT THE AT YALE NEW HAVEN
- HOSPITAL, AND THEN I DID MY CHILD PSYCHIATRY- TRAINING AT THE
YALE UNIVERSITY CHILD STUDY CENTER.
OQ. OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED, HAVE YOU BEEN
INVOLVED IN ANY OTHER TRAINING PROGRAMS?
A. ANY OTHER TRAINING PROGRAMS? I CAN'T THINK OF OTHER
TRAINING PROGRAMS -
Q.- NOW IS THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF YOUR WORK CHILD
PSYCHIATRY?
A. NOT SPECIFICALLY. THE PRIME FOCUS OF MY WORK IS THE
STUDY VIOLENCE, AND WE HAVE DONE A FAIR AMOUNT OF WORK ON
VIOLENCE IN ADOLESCENCE, AND ALSO VIOLENCE IN ADULTHOOD.
Q. AND I BELIEVE THAT YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WERE 80ARD
CERTIFIED IN ADULT PSYCHIATRY?
A. THAT*S CORRECT. -
o. DOCTOR LEWIS, IN FRONT OF YOU ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE I
a a
r
.
¥
¥
Bee
Beret
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
187
HAVE SEVERAL EXHISITS, DOCUMENTS THAT HAD BEEN MARKED AS
EXHIBITS. THE FIRST ONE IS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AS
EXHIBIT TWENTY SEVEN.
CAN YOU IDENTIFY THAT DOCUMENT?
A. THAT'S A CURRICULUM VITE OF MINE FROM MAY OF 1987.
Q. AND DOES THIS DOCUMENT ACTIVELY REFLECT YOUR TRAINING,
EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND, PUBLICATION AND SO FORTH THROUGH MAY
27, 1987?
A. I HOPE.SO. “I THINK SO. 7 7
Q. DOCTOR LEWIS, HAVE YOU PUBLISHED ARTICLES AND MEDICAL
OR PSYCHIATRIC JOURNALS?
A. YES, I HAVE.
Q. CAN YOU ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF ARTICLES YOU'VE
AUTHORED OR CO-AUTHORED?
A. WELL, COUNTING ARTICLES AND CHAPTERS AND BOOKS I HAVE
EDITED, AND BOOK THAT I HAVE CO-AUTHORED, I THINK ABOUT ONE
HUNDRED. I AM NOT SURE.
QO. AND ARE THOSE PUSLICATIONS REFLECTED IN THE EXHIBIT
TWENTY SEVEN?
A. YES.
QO. HAVE YOU WRITTEN ARTICLES THAT WERE SUBSEQUENT TO MAY
27, 19877 -
A. YES, WE, I AM TRYING TO SEE WHAT IS WHAT IS HERE.
YES. .
Oo. CAN YOU IDENTIFY ANY SUCH ARTICLE?
LEWIS — DIRECT ~- COLEMAN
168
A. WELL, THESE WOULD BE ARTICLES THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN
PUBLISHED, I GUESS, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO?
Q. YES?
A. WE HAVE COMPLETED & STUDY ON, I THINK our ARTICLE HERE
ON ADULTS ON DEATH ROW IN THIS COUNTRY IS HERE. I THINK
THAT WAS PUBLISHED A YEAR AGO, BUT WE HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY
STUDIED JUVENILES ON DEATH ROW, AND THAT IS SUSMITTED FOR
PUBLICATION. AND THAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED IN THE PAST, OVER
THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS~
ALSO WE HAVE RECENTLY COMPLETED STUDY ON COMPARING
MURDER@SS ADOLESCENTS, TO OTHER VIOLENT ADOLESCENE§ AND NON®
VIOLENT ADOLESCENGS.
Q. DOCTOR, YOU HAVE USED THE WORD WE. HAVE YOU
COLLABORATED WITH OTHERS IN CONNECTION WITH THESE STUDIES?
A. YES. MOST OF OR MUCH, MUCH OF MY COLLABORATION HAS ~
BEEN WITH A NEUROLOGIST, DOCTOR JOHANATHAN PInNcusg, WHO IS
PROFESSOR AND CHAIRMAN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF NEUROLOGY AT
GEORGETOWN... - ee - eee
AND ALSO ON OUR MORE RECENT STUDIES OF ADULTS AND
JUVENILES ON DEATH ROW, THEIR COLLABORATION HAS BEEN WITH
PSYCHOLOGISTS, LEARNING DISASILITY SPECIALISTS.
Q. NOW YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD AUTHORED CHAPTERS FOR
TEXT BOOKS. COULD YOU IDENTIFY SUCH TEXT BOOKS?
A. LET ME IDENTIFY A COUPLE. ALL RIGHT.
QO. THAT'S FINE?
wel
-
LEWIS - DIRECT ~- COLEMAN
169
A. I WROTE THE CHAPTER IN THE COMPREHENSIVE TEXT BOOK OF
PSYCHIATRY ON ADULT AND ANTI SOCIAL BEHAVIOR; AND I ALSO DID
THE CHAPTER IN THAT TEXT BOOK ON JUVENILE ANTI SOCIAL
BEHAVIORAL CONDUCT DISORDER.
AND I ALSO WROTE THE CHAPTER IN THE CAVAGNAU AND
MICHAELS NEW TEXT BOOK ON PSYCHIATRY ON JUVENILE VIOLENCE.
Q. NOW DOCTOR LEWIS, HAVE YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED AS AN
EXPERT IN PSYCHIATRY IN COURTS?
A. YES.
Q. CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MANY OCCASIONS YOU HAVE BEEN
QUALIFIED 8Y A COURT TO GIVE EXPERT TESTIMONY?
A. I DON'T KNOW. SEVERAL. I HAVEN'T COUNTED.
Q. HAVE YOU TESTIFIED IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA AS AN
EXPERT? ~
A. YES, I HAVE.
Q. AND HAVE YOU TESTIFIED AS AN EXPERT IN PSYCHIATRY IN
CAPITAL CASES?
A. YES, I HAVE.
Q. AND IN OTHER MURDER CASES?
A. YES, I HAVE.
Q. NOW IN CONNECTION WITH WORK YOU DO ON BEHALF OF-~
WELL, IN CONNECTION WITH CRIMINAL CONDUCT, DO YOU ALWAYS
TESTIFY OR WORK ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS?
A. NOT NECESSARILY. IT DEPENDS WHAT THE CASE IS AND WHO
HAS REQUESTED THAT I DO THE EVALUATION. FOR SEVERAL YEARS I
LEWIS - DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
170
WAS THE CLINICAL DIRECTOR OF THE COURT CLINIC IN NEW HAVEN,
WHICH AT THE TIME I THINK STILL IS THE ONLY COURT CLINIC IN
CONNECTICUT, AND AT THAT TIME I TESTIFIED ON BEHALF OF THE
STATE.
MR. COLEMAN: YOUR HONOR, I TENDER DOCTOR LEWIS AS
AN EXPERT IN PSYCHIATRY.
THE COURT: ANY VOIR DIRE?
MR. MEGINNIS: MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT, WE WILL
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT DOCTOR LEWIS HAS BEEN ACCEPTED AS EXPERTS i
BUT I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO ASK SOMETHING ABOUT HER
QUALIFICATIONS ON CROSS EXAMINATION. ,
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT, SIR. PROCEED-
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. DOCTOR LEWIS, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE LAWS OF THE
STATE OF FLORIDA, AND THE CONSTITUTIONAL STANDARDS AS A THEY
PERTAIN TO THE COMPETANCY OF A DEFENDANT TO STAND TRIAL.
A. YES. 7 _
Q. DOCTOR LEWIS, YOU WERE RETAINED TO PROVIDE EXPERT
TESTIMONY ON SEHALF OF THE PETITIONER IN THIS CASE, MR_
BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT? ~ -
A. YES. ae
Q. AND CAN YOU DESCRIBE GENERALLY--
A. MAY I INTERRUPT FOR A MOMENT?
3. : YES? : , :
A. THAT'S CORRECT AT THIS TIME. INITIALLY MR. BUNDY WAS
Aa
Bk a
24
25
LEWIS ~ DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
171
EVALUATED AS REALLY IN THE COURSE OF A STUDY THAT, OR SOME
EVALUATIONS THAT WERE BEING DONE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA,
AND HE RECEIVED, AT THAT TIME, THE SAME KIND OF EVALUATION
AS BEING DONE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES.
QO. I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF YOUR
BEING RETAINED.
INITIALLY YOU WERE NOT RETAINED AS AN EXPERT ON
HIS BEHALF, YOU SIMPLY CONDUCTED AN EVALUATION; IS THAT
‘CORRECT?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND-DID YOU REACH SOME CONCLUSION, SOME TENTATIVE
CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HIS MENTAL~- AS A RESULT OF THAT
EVALUATION?
A. YES.
Q. MENTAL CONDITION?
A. Yes.
ions AND SUBSEQUENTLY YOU WERE RETAINED AS AN EXPERT ON HIS
BEHALF; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
Q. IN THE COURSE OF YOUR EVALUATION OF MR. BUNDY, WERE
YOU ASKED AT ANY TIME TO REACH ANY PARTICULAR DECISION PRIOR
TO THE EVALUATION, ANY PARTICULAR DECISION ABOUT HIS MENTAL
CONDITION?
A. ~ ASKED TO REACH A DECISION, IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR
QUESTION, NO-
a
oa
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT ~— COLEMAN
172
Q. YOUR OPINIONS ARE BASED ON YOUR INDEPENDENT
EVALUATIONS?
A. YES. IN FACT MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT I WROTE AN
INITIAL REPORT ABOUT MR. BUNDY THAT WAS BASED EXCLUSIVELY ON
THE KIND OF ASSESSMENT THAT, THAT WAS BEING DONE ON SEVERAL
INDIVIDUALS IN FLORIDA.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED FOR
IDENTIFICATION AS PLAINTIFFS EXHISITS TWENTY EIGHT, TWENTY
NINE AND THIRTY. IT WILL BE ON THE RIGHT.
CAN YOU IDENTIFY THE DOCUMENT THAT'S MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT 28?
A. YES, THAT'S SOMETHING TITLED PSYCHIATRIC IMPRESSION OF
THEODORE BUNDY, AND THAT WAS DATED SEPTEMBER 19, 1986.
Q. AND CAN YOU TELL ME, IS THIS THE, FIRST OF ALL, CAN
YOU TELL ME WHAT MEANS PSYCHIATRIC IMPRESSION?
A. WELL, AT THE TIME THAT I PREPARED THIS REPORT I HAD
SEEN MR. BUNDY, i BELIEVE IT WAS ON THREE DIFFERENT
OCCASIONS, BUT IT WAS FOR A TOTAL OF APPROXIMATELY THREE AND
HALF HOURS, AND I DION'T HAVE AVAILABLE TO ME OTHER DATA
PERTAINING TO HIS BEHAVIOR, -DATA REGARDING HIS LIFE HISTORY,
I HAD NOT INTERVIEWED ANY FAMILY MEMBERS, AND THIS IS WHY I
CALLED IT A PSYCHIATRIC IMPRESSION, BECAUSE I DIDN'T
CONSIDER IT AS COMPLETE AN ASSESSMENT AS I WOULD LIKE TO
HAVE CONDUCTED AT THAT TIME.
Oo. NOW SUBSEQUENTLY YOU DID COMPLETE AN EVALUATION UPON
on
4
i
LEWIS - DIRECT — COLEMAN
WHICH YOU RENDERED AN OPINION OR SOME OPINIONS?
A. YES.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO IDENTIFY PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NUMBER
TWENTY NINE FOR IDENTIFICATION.
A. THIS IS A LETTER OF NOVEMBER ELEVEN, 1986, TO ONE OF
HIS ATTORNEYS, TG POLLY NELSON, AND THIS WAS WRITTEN IN
RESPONSE TO A LETTER TO ME POSING PARTICULAR QUESTIONS.
QO. FINALLY, LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT WHAT IS MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NUMBER THERE FOR IDENTIFICATION.
A. YES -
Q. AND CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT?
A. THIS IS ANOTHER LETTER TO POLLY NELSON, BASED ON A
REVIEW OF SOME ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.
Q. NOW BOCTOR, WHAT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO DO NOW IS TO, IF
YOU WILL, DESCRIBE GENERALLY WHAT MATERIALS YOU REVIEWED AND
WHAT OTHER STEPS YOU TOOK IN YOUR ATTEMPT TO DIAGNOSE
WHETHER MR. BUNDY WAS SUFFERING FROM A MENTAL ILLNESS?
A. IN ORDER TO DO THAT I WOULD HAVE TO, I REVIEWED A
LARGE AMOUNT OF MATERIAL, ACTUALLY TWO PACKING 80X’S FULL OF
MATERIALS, SO I WOULD HAVE TO REFER TO SOME.
Q. YOU MAY REFER TO-~
A. WHERE WOULD THIS BE? AND LET'S SEE, THIS IS AN
AFFIDAVIT, LET ME SEE WHAT THE DATE IS.
QO. - I BELIEVE SEPTEMBER TENTH, 1987?
A. OKAY. -AND SINCE THAT TIME THERE HAS SEEN SOME MORE
-
d
:
é
:
:
A auld
i
s
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
174
INFORMATION, BUT I HAVE-- FIRST OF ALL, I HAD APPROXIMATELY
SEVEN HOURS OF INTERVIEWS WITH MR. BUNDY, AND I GUESS FOUR
DIFFERENT DATES.
MR. MEGINNIS: I AM NOT SURE IT APPEARS TO ME SHE'S
READING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT IN EVIDENCE. IF THAT IS
INDEED THE AFFIDAVIT OF SEPTEMBER TENTH THAT I HAVE SEEN, I
WOULD SUGGEST PERHAPS IT IS A PART OF THE RECORD, BUT I
WANTED TO CLARIFY IT THAT POINT.
MR. COLEMAN: IT IS, IT IS THE AFFIDAVIT THAT--
MR. MEGINNIS: DOES IT HAVE AN EXHIBIT NUMBER IN :
THIS CASE? :
MR. COLEMAN: IT DOES NOT. AND I DIDN'T SEE A NEED
TO MARK IT AS AN EXHIBIT, SINCE DOCTOR LEWIS IS HERE TO
TESTIFY, BUT I THINK HER REFERENCE TO THE AFFIDAVIT IS
SPECIFICALLY FOR REFRESHING HER RECOLLECTION TO IDENTIFY THE
MASSIVE MATERIALS THAT--
THE COURT: OS8JECTION REFERRING TO THE AFFIDAVIT?
MR. MEGINNIS: I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO HER REFERRING
TO THAT AFFIDAVIT AS LONG AS IT'S IDENTIFIED, YOUR HONOR,
AND FACT THAT IF SHE’S USING IT TO REFRESH HER MEMORY
THAT'S FINE, BUT I DON’T WANT HER TO READ FROM IT UNLESS WE
INTRODUCE IT.
THE WITNESS: OKAY. COULD YOU REPEAT THE
QUESTION?
BY MR. COLEMAN:
BSS Oe
:
:
;
Sei aas y
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
175
Q. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO
IDENTIFY THE MATERIALS AND INFORMATION THAT YOU REVIEWED IN
FORMING YOUR OPINION IN THIS CASE?
A. WELL, IN ADDITION TO THE INTERVIEWS THAT I HAD WITH
MR. BUNDY, I REVIEWED THE PSYCOLOGICAL EVALUATION OF MR.
BUNDY, INCLUDING SOME DRAWINGS AND, THAT HE HAD CREATED AS
PART OF THE TEST MATERIALS.
I REVIEWED THE E E G THAT WAS PERFORMED, THE
| REPORT, E E G AND BY DOCTOR LESLEY PRITCHETT; AND I REVIEWED
THE OPINIONS OF THE FLORIDA SUPREME COURT THAT AFFIRMED HIS
CONVICTIONS; I REVIEWED THE SENTENSING FINDINGS OF THE TRIAL
COURTS; I REVIEWED NOTES BY MR. BUNDYS ATTORNEYS; I REVIEWED
PRO SE MOTIONS THAT MR. BUNDY FILED; I ALSO REVIEWED
TRANSCRIPTS OF MR. BUNDY'S TRIALS, THE PARTS WHERE HE SPOKE
ON THE TRIAL; I REVIEWED SOME AUDIO TAPE RECORDINGS AND
TRANSCRIPTS OF INTERVIEWS BETWEEN MR. BUNDY AND POLICE
OFFICERS IN FLORIDA; AND I ALSO REVIEWED A VIDEOTAPE OF MR.
BUNDY AT VARIOUS STAGES IN HIS TRIALS, INCLUDING PORTIONS OF
HEARINGS IN PENSACOLA; AND THE LEON COUNTY SHERIFF READING we
THE INDICTMENT OF MR. BUNDY; AND MR. BUNDYS ARGUING OF HIS
MOTION TO EXCLUDE CAMERAS FROM THE COURTROOM; AND MR. BUNDY
EXPLAINING HIS CONDUCT TO THE JUDGE WHEN HE REFUSED TO COME
TO COURT; AND IN I SELIEVE JULY OF "79 I HAVE ALSO REVIEWED
A TAPE OF MR. BUNDY GETTING HIMSELF MARRIED, THAT'S
SUBSEQUENT TO THIS AFFIDAVIT, I BELIEVE; AND I ALSO REVIEWED
a”
:
wo
BES
b lidlic al
ee
abe
24
25
LEWIS ~ DIRECT ~- COLEMAN
176
TRANSCRIPTS OF PROCEEDINGS IN MAY 31ST, 1979, WHEN HE FILED
A MOTION TO HAVE HIS ATTORNEYS REMOVED FROM THE CASE,
INSTEAD OF EXCEPTING A PLEA BARGAIN THAT HAD BEEN
NEGOTIATED; TRANSCRIPTS OF THE JUNE 11, 1879, WHEN THE LEON
COUNTY COURT HELD A HEARING TO DETERMINE HIS COMPETENCY TO
STAND TRIAL; AND TRANSCRIPTS OF JULY SIX, 1979, WHEN THERE
WAS TESTIMONY CONCERNING HIS CONDUCT DURING THE FIRST DAYS
AFTER HIS ARREST IN 1978; AND TRANSCRIPTS AGAIN FROM PUBLIC
DEFENDERS WHO TESTIFIED CONCERNING HIS CONDUCT DURING THE
DAYS AFTER HIS ARREST; ALSO TRANSCRIPTS WHEN MR. BUNDY DID A
CROSS EXAMINATION OF STATE WITNESSES; AND ALSO WHEN HE
REFUSED TO COME TO COURT ONE DAY DURING HIS TRIAL: AND 1
ALSO REVIEWED WRITTEN REPORTS OF DOCTOR TINNY; AND I ALSO
REVIEWED SOME, I DON'T REMEMBER THE NUMBER OF THE LARGE
NUMBER OF DEPOSITIONS THAT MR. BUNDY HAD CONDUCTED IN THE
TWO FLORIDA CASES.
I ALSO REVIEWED A CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS AND NEWS
ACCOUNTS OF MR. BUNDYS CONDUCT AT DIFFERENT TIMES DURING THE
TRIAL.
I ALSO REVIEWED A MOTION FOR A COMPETENCY
DETERMINATION THAT I GUESS WAS FILED IN JUNE OF 1978, SIGNED
BY HIS ATTORNEY, MICHAEL MINERVA AND MOTION FOR MENTAL
EXAMINATION ON THAT SAME DATE, SIGNED 8Y LARRY SIMPSON; AND
MOTION REGARDING THE COMPETENCY HEARING DATED I GUESS JUNE
FOURTH AGAIN, SIGNED BY MR. BUNDY; AND ANOTHER MOTION FOR
Retief
é
=
:
ied REED
De
=
LEWIS - DIRECT ~- COLEMAN
177
COMPETENCY DETERMINATION OF JUNE FIFTH, SIGNED BY LARRY
SIMPSON .
I REVIEWED POST SENTENCE INVESTIGATION REPORTS,
AND REPORTS FROM THE FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.
I ALSO REVIEWED MEDICAL RECORDS OF THE LEON COUNTY
JAIL AND THE FLORIDA STATE PRISON. :
I ALSO REVIEWED ACADEMIC RECORDS OF MR. BUNDY AND
I SEE HERE AT THE TIME THAT I MADE THIS AFFIDAVIT, THEY WERE
RECORDS FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF PUGET SOUND LAW SCHOOL, :
STANFORD UNIVERSITY, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, TEMPLE
UNIVERSITY, AND UNIVERSITY OF UTAH LAW SCHOOL.
I SUBSEQUENTLY REVIEWED MATERIALS FROM HIS GRADE
SCHOOL AND SCHOOL. :
I ALSO REVIEWED NOTES OF LAWYERS MADE AFTER
INTERVIEWS WITH FAMILY AND ASTER THEIR INTERVIEWS WITH CAROL
LEWIS BOND, HIS MOTHER, AUDRY TAYLOR, HIS AUNT VIRGINIA
BRISTOLL WHO I THINK IS HIS GREAT AUNT, AND JULIA SUNDAY,
HIS AUNT, AND JOHN 4OWELL, HIS FATHERS BROTHER.
I SHOULD MENTION THOUGH THAT AT THE TIME OF THIS
AFFIDAVIT I HAD REVIEWED THOSE REPORTS OF HIS COUNSEL.
HOWEVER, SINCE THAT TIME I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO INTERVIEW LBWISE
BUNDY AND AUDRY TAILOR IN PERSON, AND I HAVE DONE TELEPHONE
INTERVIEWS WITH VIRGINIA BRISTOLL, AND WITH JULIA SUNDAY AND
WITH JOHN #OWELL, SOQ THAT ALL OF THE PEOPLE LISTED HERE
EXCEPT CAROL, WHO I HAVE HAD PERSONAL CONTACT WITH, AND
nN
MRCS
ail
7
2
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
478
AGAIN I CAN'T, I AM NOT CERTAIN THAT I REMEMBER THIS, I SEE
I WROTE THAT I REVIEWED NOTES OF INTERVIEWS WITH MARILYN
VORTMAN, A SEATTLE ATTORNEY, FRIEND OF MR. BUNDY, AND REPORT
OF PENNSICOLA UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL AND CLINICAL EMERGENCY
DEPARTMENT. WHERE HE WAS ADMITTED ON THE DAY OF HIS ARREST;
AND I ALSO REVIEWED PSYCOLOGICAL EVALUATIONS OF 1976, BY
GARY JORGOSON; AND UTAH STATE PRISGN PSYCOLOGICAL
EVALUATIONS, I AM TRYING TO THINK IF, SECAUSE I SUBSEQUENTLY
REVIEWED SOME OTHER MATERIALS, I RECENTLY REVIEWED A LETTER
BY HIS WIFE CAROL WHO IS DESCRIBING HIS STATE OF MIND
SHORTLY AFTER HIS ARREST IN FLORIDA, AND I .THINK I HAVE
REVIEWED SEVERAL OTHERS, OTHER PIECES OF MATERIAL THAT I
CAN'T RECALL AT THIS TIME.
Q. DID YOU ALSO INTERVIEW MR. BUNDYS COUSIN BY TELEPHONE?
A. I SPOKE WITH ONE OF HIS COUSINS, BRUCE, LET ME SEE, I
THINK THAT WAS AUDRIES SON, BRUCE TAILOR? .
Q. YES?
A. {SO SPOKE ON THE PHONE.
Q. HAVE YOU ALSO HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THE
wcHAvn
TRANSCRIPT OF THE DEPOSITION OF MR. STEVE MISHOW THAT WAS
INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE?
A. YES. I LOOKED AT IT.
Q. AND HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THE
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FROM YESTERDAY?
A. YOU WOULD HAVE TO REMIND ME WHO.
LEWIS — DIRECT - COLEMAN
1792
QC. MR. KORIN, MR. LUBECK, MR. NERSEY?
A. I THINK THAT I BRIEFLY LOOKED AT THOSE.
oO. AND WERE YOU ASLE TO REVIEW BRIEFLY ALSO TAPES
PROVIDED LAST NIGHT 8Y THE STATE OF INTERVIEWS OF MR. BUNDY?
A. YES. I REVIEWED TAPES THAT HE WAS, AS I UNDERSTAND
IT, THAT HE WAS MAKING AT THE TIME OF THE LAKE CITY TRIAL.
Q. NOW THE OTHER MATERIALS THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED, THE
TYPES OF MATERIALS AND INFORMATION AND INTERVIEWS THAT ARE
REGULARILY RELIED UPON IN THE FIELD OF PSYCHIATRY?
A. WELL, WHEN YOU SAY REGULARILY RELIED UPON?
Q- NORMALLY?
A. THEY'RE USUALLY IS NOT THIS WEALTH OF DATA, YOU DON'T
USUALLY HAVE TAPES AND THIS KINDS OF THING. WHAT, LET ME
DESCRIBE THE PARTS THAT ARE USUALLY RELIED UPON IN A
PSYCHIATRIC EVALUATION.
FIRST OF ALL WE USUALLY RELIES UPON SEVERAL HOURS
OF PSYCHIATRIC INTERVIEWS WITH AN INDIVIDUAL. AND ONE WHO
USUALLY, WILL USUALLY RELY UPON OTHER MEDICAL DATA, IF
INDICATED, SUCH AS NEUROLOGICAL EVALUATIONS, E E G'S, ONE
WILL USUALLY USUALLY REVIEW PSYCOLOGICAL MATERIALS.
IN ADDITION, ONE WILL USUALLY, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE,
INTERVIEW FAMILY MEMBERS AS WELL AS THE INDIVIDUAL HIMSELF,
OR HERSELF, BECAUSE VERY OFTEN THERE ARE THINGS THAT FAMILY
MEMBERS KNOW ABOUT, CAN RECALL THAT THE PARTICULAR
INDIVIDUAL DOES NOT REMEMBER; AND ALSO THE REVIEW OF OF
4
LEWIS — DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
MEDICAL RECORDS IS COMMON.
HOWEVER, THESE OTHER THINGS LIKE TAPES, AND
WHATEVER THAT'S NOT NECESSARIALLY PART OF THE ROUTINE
EXAMINATION.
Q. NOW IN YOUR OPINION, WAS THE REVIEW OF THE INFORMATION
AND THE INTERVIEWS THAT YOU CONDUCTED NECESSARY TO RENDER AN
OPINION ABOUT MR. BUNDYS MENTAL CONDITION?
MR. MEGINNIS: I OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. MAY IT PLEASE
THE COURT, I AM NOT SURE THAT WE ARE HERE TO EVALUATE MR.
BUNDY'S MENTAL CONDITION. WE ARE HERE TO DETERMINE WHETHER
OR NOT DURING THE LAKE city TRIAL HE WAS COMPETENT TO STAND
TRIAL. SO IF WE ARE GOING TO GIVE A BROAD BRUSH CONCLUSION
AS TO WHAT HIS MENTAL CAPACITY IS I THINK THAT'S BEYONO THE
SCOPE OF THIS HEARING.
THE COURT: THAT MAY BE TRUE, MR. MAGINNIS BUT I
WILL LET HER TESTIFY AND KEEPING IN MIND THAT IT MAY BE
BEYOND THE SCOPE.
THE WITNESS: COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION?
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. IN YOUR OPINION, WAS THE REVIEW OF THE KIND OF
INFORMATION THAT REVIEWED AND INTERVIEWS THAT YOU CONDUCTED,
REQUIRED IN ORDER TO RENDER AN OPINION ABOUT MR. BUNDYS, LET
ME MAKE IT THIS TIME, COMPETENCY?
A. YES.
Oo. NOW DOCTOR LEWIS, YOU REFERRED TO AN EVALUATION THAT
a
J
Vat i i hed
24
25
LEWIS ~- DIRECT - COLEMAN
7817
WAS DONE BY MR. PRITCHETT, I BELIEVE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. IT'S A WOMAN, LESLEY PRITCHETT, RIGHT.
QO. LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT EXHIBIT THIRTY 8 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.
A. RIGHT.
Q. CAN YOU IDENTIFY THAT DOCUMENT?
A. ves, THIS IS A REPORT BY DOCTOR LESLEY PRITCHETT,
WHO'S AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY AT NEW YORK
UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER, AND WHO READ THE QUANTATATIVE
ELECTROENCEPALOGRAM THAT WAS CONDUCTED THAT WAS PART OF THE
EVALUATIONS OF THE VARIOUS PEOPLE IN FLORIDA AND HE ALSO
RECEIVED A QUANTATATIVE E E G.
Q. THIS WAS NOT SPECIFICALLY FOR MR. BUNDY?
A. NO. >
Q. NOW, THE NEXT THREE PAGES OF EXHIBIT THIRTY 8 FOR
IDENTIFICATION?
A. EXHIBIT THIRTY?
Q. EXHI8IT THAT YOU JUST READ?
A. YES.
Q. THE SECOND PAGE IS IS-PSYCOLOGICAL EVALUATION BY
MARYLIN FELDMAN.
CAN YOU IDENTIFY THAT DOCUMENT?
A. YES, THAT WAS AGAIN, THIS WAS PART OF THE ROUTINE
EVALUATION DONE.
ion THIS WAS AN EVALUATION THAT CONSISTED OF DOING THE
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
182
WESTLER INTELLIGENCE SCALE REVISED BENDER GISTALT TEST,
RHORSHOCK, AND THE HOUSE TREE PERSON PROJECTED DRAWINGS.
Q. AND ARE THE REPORTS THAT YOU REREFERRED TO EARLIER IN
YOUR TESTIMONY HAVING, YOU HAVING REVIEWED?
A. ‘YES.
Q- NOW OVER THE COURSE OF YOUR EVALUATIONS OF MR. BUNDY,
WERE YOU ABLE TO FORM ANY OPINION ABOUT WHETHER HE HAD A
MENTAL DISEASE DURING THE PERIOD OF JANUARY, 1978, THROUGH
THE PERIOD OF HIS CONVICTION IN’ THE LAKE CITY CASE IN 1980?
A. YES, I DID.
Q. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO NOW DOCTOR LEWIS IS TO REVIEW
THE EVIDENCE UPON WHICH YOUR OPINION IS BASED.
LET ME ASK YOU FIST FIRST WHETHER AS A RESULT OF
YOUR INTERVIEWS AND EVALUATIONS AND REVIEWS, YOU FOUND ANY
EVIDENCE THAT MR. BUNDY SUFFERED FROM A SERIOUS PSYCHIATRIC
DISTURBANCE AS A YOUNG CHILD?
woes Se ee
A. YES, I DID.
Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT EVIDENCE WAS?
A. WELL, FIRST I SHOULD SAY THAT THIS CAME FROM
INTERVIEWING FAMILY MEMBERS, AND NOT FROM MR. BUNDY HIMSELF,
WHO APPARENTLY DOES NOT HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF THIS TIME IN
HIS LIFE.
HOWEVER, ACCORDING TO JULIA, I BELIEVE IT
=
AS
JULIA, HIS MOTHER'S SISTER, SHE WAS TWELVE YEARS HIS SENIOR,
AND JULIA REPORTS SOME EXTREMELY BAZAAR BEHAVIOR AS EARLY AS
24
25
LEWIS ~— DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
183
THREE YEARS OF AGE. AND ACCORDING TO JULIA, WHEN MR. BUNDY
WAS THREE YEARS OLD HE, PERHAPS COULD I LOOK AT MY NOTES TO
TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT SHE HAD--
Q- YES. AS A MATTER OF FACT YOU CAN REFER TO YOUR NOTES
AS WELL AS THE REPORTS THAT YOU HAVE?
A. THIS WAS ON TWO DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS WITH HER.
THEY WERE OVER THE TELEPHONE.
SHE SAID" WHEN HE WAS THREE YEARS OLD-- -
MR. MEGINNIS: OBJECTION. HEARSAY, WHAT SHE'S
RELATING FROM THIS PERSON.
THE COURT: WELL, THIS IS PART OF WHAT AN OPINION
IS BASED ON, SO THE COURT WILL ASSESS THE RELEVANCY, BUT
ALLOW HER TO STATE HER OPINION BASED ON WHATEVER EVIDENCE
SHE RECEIVED, WHETHER IT BE HEARSAY OR NOT.
MR. COLEMAN: THANK YOU.
THE WITNESS: SHE SAID" WHEN HE WAS THREE YEARS
OLD THE ONLY TIME HE FRIGTENED ME WAS. WHEN HE BROUGHT
BUTCHER KNIVES UP FROM THE KITCHEN AND STUCK THEM _IN THE
BED. ™
—_——
AND SHE WENT ON SUBSEQUENTLY TO SAY HE HAD THREE
KNIVES, ALL OF THE SUDDEN HE PICKED UP THE COVER AND LAID -
THEM UNDER THE COVERS AND STOOD THERE, AND SHE SAID YOU KNOW
HOW KIDS WILL GET THAT GLINT IN THERE EYE, AND SHE WENT ON
AGAIN LATER ON IN THE INTERVIEW WITH HER TO SAY: " I THINK
~ _
TO ME IT DID HAPPEN MORE THEN ONCE. “
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
184 i
€ 1 AND THEN WHAT SHE TOLD ME WAS THAT ON SEVERAL
2 OCCASIONS WHEN MR. BUNDY WAS ONLY APPROXIMATELY THREE YEARS
3 OF AGE, HE WOULD TAKE BUTCHER KNIVES FROM THE KITCHEN AND
4 COME UPSTAIRS AND SECRETLY LIFT UP HER COVERS AND PLACE THEM
q 5 IN BESIDE HER IN A DOUBLE BED THERE. SHE ALSO WENT ON TO
6 SAY SHORTLY AFTER THAT THE FAMILY ARRANGED TO HAVE HIM AND j
7 HIS MOTHER LEAVE THAT HOUSEHOLD AND MOVE ELSEWHERE.
a 8 Q. DOCTOR, IN YOUR OPINION, WHAT DOES SUCH BEHAVIOR
3 INDICATE IN-A CHILD THAT AGE? - . - -
10 A. WELL, FIRST IT'S EXTROARDINARILY BAZAAR BEHAVIOR.
IT'S NOT PART OF NORMALLY CHILDHOOD BEHAVIOR. IT'S THE KIND i
ee ne
12 OF BEHAVIOR THAT ONE OCCASIONALLY WILL SEE IN A PSYCHOTIC
13 YOUNGSTER, BUT MORE IMPORTANT IT'S THE KIND OF BEHAVIOR THAT i
UE NSe TSS
14 TO THE BEST Ur MY KNOWLEDGE, YOU ONLY SEE IN ‘YOUNGSTERS WHO
15 THEMSELVES HAVE BEEN VERY SERIOUSLY TRAMATIZED, WHO HAVE
a
3 16 EITHER THEMSELVES BEEN THE VICTIMS OF EXTRAORDINARY ABUSE, _
7 17 OR WHO HAVE WITNESSED EXTREME VIOLENCE AMONG FAMILY
se
18 MEMBERS - ~
;
= 73 QO. NOW IN THE COURSE OF YOUR EVALUATION, DID YOU FIND
4 20 EVIDENCE THAT MR. SUNDY HAD BEEN EXPOSED TO VIOLENCE AS A
2 a . a Lo.
21 CHILD?
22 A. YES.
a 23 °. CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT EVIDENCE WAS?
Z
f 24 A. AGAIN, I HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES.
i
25 Qo. THAT'S FINE?
LEWIS ~- DIRECT - COLEMAN i
185 |
i
C 1 A. AND THIS CAME AGAIN FROM INTERVIEWS WITH VARIOUS
2 FAMILY MEMBERS, AND I MAY NOT 8E CONSECUTIVE OR
3 CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT LET ME JUST TELL YOU WHAT THEY HAD.
; 4 ACCORDING TO ACTUALLY ALL OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS
: 5 | WHOM I INTERVIEWED, MR. BUNDY'S GRANDFATHER WITH WHOM HE
q 6 | LIVED FOR THE FIRST THREE YEARS OF HIS LIFE WAS AN EXTREMELY
: o_O i
: 7 | VIOLENT AND FRIGHTEN VIDUAL. |
; so AND AS JULIA SAID: “I WAS AFRAID OF HIM WHEN HE
~ 9 | WAS COMING HOME I WOULD DISAPPEAR. HE COULD BE WILDLY
10 | ANGRY. “ HE DID LANDSCAPING, AND APPARENTLY WAS A TALENTED
: 71. | LANDSCAPE GARDNER. IF A WORKMAN PULLED UP A SPECIAL SHRUB
~ 12 | EVERY ONE WOULD RUN, HE WOULD GIVE THE IMPRESSION HE WOULD
13 HURT SOMEONE. THEN ACCORDING TO GINNY, I GUESS THAT'S HIS
14 GREAT AUNT MRS. BRISTOLL, SHE SAID THAT HE COULD BE
S
15 EXTREMELY VERBALLY AGGRESSIVE TO HIS OWN MOTHER, AND SHE
SAID THAT HIS OWN BROTHERS WANTED TO KILL HIM. HE SAID THAT
Bek
a
o
17 SHE SAID THAT THE BROTHERS WANTED TO GROW UP TO BEAT HIM UP,
18 AND HE WAS THIS KIND OF AGGRESSIVE INDIVIDUAL. APPARENTLY If
BELIEVE THAT HE HAD A GREAT DEAL OF POWER OVER THE OTHER
©
o
20 | BROTHERS. I THINK HE WAS THE OLDEST IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN.
21 I SPOKE WITH JACK @OWELL, I BELIEVE HE IS THE
22 YOUNGER BROTHER, i GUESS SAM, AND HE DESCRISED AN INCIDENT
23 IN THE CAR WHEN HIS SON, WHO IS VERY CURIOUS ABOUT FAMILY
24 4 BACKGROUND AND LIKED TO HEAR STORIES ABOUT VARIOUS PEOPLE.
25 ASKED SAM ABOUT TED'S PATERNITY. HE SAID TELL ME ABOUT
~~
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
, 186
TED'S FATHER, AND ACCORDING, THIS IS ACCORDING TO JACK
HOWELL, SAM BECAME ENRAGED AND APPARENTLY HE ACTED LIKE A
MAD MAN, HE WAS WILD, HE WAS FURIOUS.
OTHER INDIVIDUALS FELT THAT HE WAS QUITE BAZAAR.
GINNY, VIRGINIA BRISTOLL, SAIO THAT HE WAS
EXTREMELY SECRETIVE, THAT SHE SAID QUOTE I THINK HE WAS
BAZAAR, I ALWAYS THOUGHT HE WAS CRAZY, HE, AND THEN JULIA,
HIS MOTHER'S SISTER, I BELIEVE, SAID THAT SHE RECALLED AN
INCIDENT WHEN HE THREW HER DOWNSTAIRS. SHE SAID SHE HAD, _
SHE GOTTEN UP AT NINE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND HE
APPARENTLY FELT PEOPLE SHOULD GET UP MUCH EARLIER THEN NINE
O'CLOCK, AND GET GOING AND GET MOVING, AND SHE SAID HE THREW
ME DOWN THE STAIRS, SHE AS SO SAID THAT HE COULD BE VERY
VIOLENT TO- ANIMALS. SHE SAID I HAD A DOG, SHE SAID I LOVED
ANIMALS, SHE SAID HE WOULD KICK IT UNTIL IT HOWELED. AND
SHE DESCRIBED HIS SWINGING CATS BY THE TAIL AND FLINGING
THEM AROUND.
IN SHORT, ALL OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS WHOM I
INTERVIEWED DESCRISED HIM AS AN EXTREMELY VIOLENT PERSON,
AND THE FAMILY SEEMED THE FEEL THAT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT
FOR MR. 8UNDY AND FOR HIS MOTHER TO GET OUT OF THAT
u
HOUSEHOLD TO OUOTE GINNY SHE SAID WE FELT LOIS HAD TO BE
—_——. ee
a
RESCUED.
OQ. WHO IS LOIS? . -
A. TED'S MOTHER
Bee
ot
w
bs
:
=
Seen
yy
]
24
25
Aut W 1 Ads EE EA IN
187
Q. NOW, YOU INDICATED, DR. LEWIS, THAT MR. BUNDY WAS NOT
ABLE TO RECALL THIS TYPE OF CONDUCT IN YOUR INTERVIEWS WITH
HIM?
A. RIGHT.
Q. IS THERE ANY SIGNIFICANCE TO THAT?
A. YES. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WONDERED, WAS IT POSSIBLE
THAT HE DID REMEMBER THIS, AND HE JUST WAS EMBARRASSED BY IT
AND DIDN'T WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT IT, AND I ASKED HIM ABOUT
IT, AND TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, HE TRULY HAD NO MEMORY
OF IT. : ,
WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT, TO MY MIND, IS WHEN A
YOUNGSTER HAS BEEN HORRIBLY TRAUMATIZED SO THAT HE OR SHE
CANNOT TOLERATES WHAT HE HAS WITNESSED OR BEEN PART OF, HE
TENDS TO TOTALLY REPRESS AND TO BE UNABLE TO CALL IT TO
MIND. AND I SUSPECT THAT THIS IS- WHAT HAPPENED.
Q. DR. LEWIS, THE BEHAVIOR THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED AND
THAT HAS BEEN ATTRIBUTED TO MR. BUNDY'S GRANDFATHER, DOES
THAT INDICATE TO YOU ANY PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS?
A. WELL, NOT HAVING INTERVIEWED HIM, IT WOULD BE HARD TO . ..
MAKE A DIAGNOSIS. IT CERTAINLY SOUNDS AS IF HE WERE AN
EXTREMELY DISTURBED INDIVIDUAL. THERE WAS MORE DATA FROM
FAMILY MEMBERS ABOUT HIS INABILITY TO COMMUNICATE WITH OTHER
PEOPLE, THE FACT THAT HE WAS SO PECULIAR THEY DIDN'T WANT
HIM AT SOME OF THEIR CHRISTMAS PARTIES OR OTHER OCCASIONS
BECAUSE HE WAS, HE WAS SO PECULIAR.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
=
mn
aon: Be
188
HE ALSO, ACCORDING TO SEVERAL FAMILY MEMBERS, WAS
A WORKAHOLIC AND WORKED AND WORKED AND WORKED FROM MORNING
TILL, THEN HE'D STOP FOR DINNER, AND THEN HE'D WORK UNTIL
LATE AT NIGHT. IT CERTAINLY SOUNDS AS IF HE WERE SERIOUSLY
DISTURBED.
YOU WONDER WHETHER THOSE KINDS OF RAGES AND THAT
DEGREE OF DRIVENNESS, COUPLED WITH THIS KIND OF BIZARRE
QUALITY THAT PEOPLE HAVE DESCRIBED, YOU WONDER WHETHER HE
SUFFERED FROM A MANIC DISORDER. HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK THAT
alana ech
ONE COULD MAKE A DIAGNOSIS WITHOUT KNOWING A GREAT DEAL MORE
ABOUT HIM.
Q. NOW, YOU SAID THAT ONE WONDERS WHETHER HE SUFFERED
FROM A MANIC DISORDER.
A. UH-HUH.
Q. WHAT IS A MANIC DISORDER?
A. WELL, IT'S A MOOD DISORDER AND IT'S ONE END OF WHAT IS
CALLED A BIPOLAR MOOD DISORDER. If USED TO BE CALLED MANIC
DEPRESSIVE ILLNESS AND IT'S CHARACTERIZED USUALLY BY WIDE
SWINGS OF MOOD. THEY CAN OCCUR DURING PERIODS OF MONTHS,
WEEKS, SOMETIMES EVEN MORE RAPIDLY THAN THAT. AND DURING
—_—
MANIC PHASES INDIVIDUALS ARE OFTEN LOUD OR ANGRY. NOT
ALWAYS, SOMETIMES THEY'RE GRANDIOSE OR FEEL ON TOP OF THE
WORLD, BUT THEY CAN ALSO BE FILLED WITH RAGE AND THEY ALSO
CAN BE QUITE VIOLENT AND THAT WOULD BE KIND OF ONE END OF
a ea
THE SPECTRUM. AT THE OTHER END WOULD BE A DEPRESSIVE KIND
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
189
OF PHASE.
AND I SHOULD SAY THAT THERE WAS, TO THE BEST OF MY
KNOWLEDGE, FAMILY MEMBERS DID NOT RECALL THAT HE SUFFERED
FROM DEPRESSIVE EPISODES. YOU CAN GET A BIPOLAR ILLNESS OF
A MANIC TYPE, BUT AT THE OTHER END, WHICH IS COMMONER, YOU
WOULD GET EPISODES OF SEVERE DEPRESSION WITH WITHDRAWAL,
SLEEP DISTURBANCE AND SUICIDAL THOUGHTS, SUICIDAL ACTS,
APETITE CHANGES.
THE COURT: DOCTOR, HOW MANY YEARS HAS LITHIUM
BEEN ON THE MARKET?
A. WELL, LITHIUM, ON THE MARKET? WHEN I WAS IN TRAINING,
THE WAY I DATE IT IS WE WERE FIRST TALKING ABOUT LITHIUM AND
NOT REALLY USING IT UNTIL I THINK IN 1965. IT WAS
DISCOVERED IN THE FIFTIES, BUT IT WAS NOT MARKETED AT THAT
TIME, I THINK BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN USED AS A SALT AND PEOPLE
WERE DYING FROM TAKING TOO MUCH OF IT, ANYWAY, IT WAS
DISCOVERED LONG BEFORE IT WAS USED.
THE COURT: MID SIXTIES.
A. AROUND, I'D SAY LATE SIXTIES WOULD HAVE BEEN WHEN IT
WAS COMFORTABLY USED.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. NOW, DR. LEWIS, DID YOU FIND =- FIRST OF ALL, LET ME
ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION. DID YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE THAT
MR. BUNDY WAS EXPOSED TO SEXUALLY EXPLICIT MATERIAL AS A
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
:
J
190
YOUNG CHILD?
A. THE ONLY EVIDENCE THAT I HAD CAME FROM, I GUESS IT WAS
HIS COUSIN BRUCE, AND ACCORDING TO HIS COUSIN BRUCE HIS
GRANDFATHER KEPT A LARGE COLLECTION OF PORNOGRAPHY AND I
THINK HE KEPT IT IN THE GREENHOUSE AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT
THE BOYS APPARENTLY WERE AWARE EXISTED AND WERE PRIVY TO.
AND APPARENTLY HE HAD THIS FOR YEARS AND YEARS.
Q. NOW, DID YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF ANY OTHER
PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS IN MEMBERS OF MR. BUNDY'S FAMILY?
A. YES. THE BEST DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF PSYCHOTIC
DISTURBANCE WAS EVIDENCE REGARDING HIS GRANDMOTHER,
REGARDING ELEANOR, SAM'S WIFE. SHE HAD BEEN HOSPITALIZED ON
MORE THAN ONE OCCASION FOR PSYCHOTIC DEPRESSION, ALTHOUGH I
WAS ABLE TO LOOK AT -- T FAILED TO MENTION, I WAS ABLE TO
LOOK AT SOME HOSPITAL RECORDS IN ONE OF HER PSYCHIATRIC
HOSPITALIZATIONS AND ON THAT RECORD SOME OF THE DESCRIPTION
SUGGESTION THAT SHE MAY HAVE, SHE MAY ALSO HAVE MANIC
SYMPTOMS, IT'S HARD TO TELL. THEY CALLED IT AN AGITATED
DEPRESSION AND INDEED THEY MAY HAVE BEEN CORRECT AND AT THAT
TIME TREATED WITH BLECTROCONVULSIVE THERAPY, BUT THERE IS ,
DESCRIPTION OF HER BEING LOUD AND HER TALKING TOO MUCH AND
BEING UNABLE TO STOP. THIS IS MORE CHARACTERISTIC“OF-A
MANIC KIND OF DISORDER.
SO THERE IS HOSPITAL RECORDS OF HER TREATMENT AND
ALSO THERE IS APPARENTLY A LONG HISTORY, THOUGH THE
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
191
HOSPITALIZATIONS OCCURRED LATE IN HER LIFE, THERE IS A LONG
HISTORY OF WHAT THE FAMILY HAS CALLED AGORAPHOBIA, AND WHEN
I ASKED THEM WHAT THEY MEANT, THEY SAID THAT SHE REFUSED TO
LEAVE THE HOUSE, SHE WAS FRIGHTENED TO DO THIS. AND YOU
ee
OFTEN SEE THIS DURING DEPRESSIVE, DURING SEVERE DEPRESSIVE
ILLNESSES YOU ALSO SEE THIS KIND OF FOCUSING.
Q. DID YOU FIND EVIDENCE OF A POSSIBLE PSYCHIATRIC
ILLNESS IN ANY OTHER MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY?
A. YES. THERE WAS A COUSIN AND I THINK, I'M NOT SURE IF
IT WAS A FIRST COUSIN OR A SECOND COUSIN WHO APPARENTLY
ATTEMPTED TO KILL HIMSELF BY JUMPING OUT OF A WINDOW.
Q. NOW, DR. LEWIS, CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE SIGNIFICANCE
OF A FAMILY'S HISTORY OF PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS IS?
A. WELL, THERE ARE TWO REASONS WHY IT'S SIGNIFICANT.
ONE, PARTICULARLY IN _THE SEVERE MOOD DISORDERS, WE KNOW THAT
THERE IS A GENETIC PREDISPOSITION TOWARD THIS KIND OF
DISORDER, THAT IF YOU FIND IT IN ONE FAMILY MEMBER, THERE IS
A HIGHER LIKELIHOOD THAT YOU WILL FIND If IN LET'S SAY
SOMEONE IN THE NEXT GENERATION. AND WHEN YOU GET IT IN TWO
RELATIVES, IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S EVEN MORE LIXELY. SO THAT
WOULD BE ONE VERY IMPORTANT REASON WHY PSYCHIATRISTS TAKE A
CAREFUL FAMILY HISTORY.
THE OTHER REASON IS THAT IF YOU ARE RAISED IN A
HOUSEHOLD IN WHICH THERE IS VERY SEVERE PSYCHOPATHOLOGY, a
WOULD SAY PARTICULARLY IN THE VERY EARLY OR IN FORMATIVE
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
:
4
teat hiaeall
A lalaiaalel
alas tall neal
24
25
192
YEARS, THIS ALSO IS A TRAUMATIC, YOU CAN'T CALL IT A
TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE IT'S AN ONGOING TRAUMA,
PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA TO THE CHILD, SO THAT IT CERTAINLY
AFFECTS THE WAY IN WHICH AN INDIVIDUAL FUNCTIONS.
SO FROM A GENETIC AND FROM AN ENVIRONMENTAL POINT
OF VIEW, SEVERE PSYCHOPATHOLOGY IN CLOSE FAMILY MEMBERS IS
VERY IMPORTANT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. DR. LEWIS, HAVE YOU RECENTLY DONE RESEARCH
ON THIS ISSUE? _ _
A. WELL, WE HAVE DONE, WE HAVE DONE RESEARCH ON THE
COMBINATION OF THE PSYCHIATRIC, THE NEUROLOGICAL AND THE
FAMILY OR ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH
BECOMING EXTRAORDINARILY VIOLENT.
Q. AND CAN YOU BRIEFLY DESCRIBE WHAT THAT RESEARCH
SHOWED?
A. - I'M NOW TRYING TO SUMMARIZE ABOUT TEN OR FIFTEEN YEARS
OF WORK.
WHAT IT HAS SHOWN, AND THIS IS, NOT ONLY WHEN WE
COMPARED MORE VIOLENT INDIVIDUALS AND MORE VIOLENT OFFENDERS
WITH LESS VIOLENT OFFENDERS, BUT ALSO WHEN WE HAVE COMPARED
LET'S SAY INCARCERATED DELINQUENTS WITH ORDINARY
NON-DELINQUENTS, WHAT YOU FIND IS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A
a toe - os wee ee - = - 4
COMBINATION OF SOME KIND OF INTRINSIC VULNERABILITY, BE IT
BECAUSE OF A NEUROLOGICAL KIND OF DISORDER OR BECAUSE OF A
PREDISPOSITION TO A PSYCHOTIC DISORDER SUCH AS SCHIZOPHRENIA
_ UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER - -
let a
al a
A dill
s chiiddial
d
24
25
193
OR MANIC DEPRESSIVE ILLNESS, AND WHEN YOU COUPLE THAT WITH
AN UPBRINGING IN A HOUSEHOLD THAT IS VIOLENT, YOU OFTEN
CREATE AN INCREDIBLY VIOLENT INDIVIDUAL.
Q. DR. LEWIS, DID YOU FIND EVIDENCE OF A MOOD DISORDER IN
MR. BUNDY'S BACKGROUND?
A. YES, I DID.
Q. WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO NOW IS TO ASK YOU, IF YOU WILL, TO
TAKE US THROUGH WHAT YOU FOUND THAT WOULD INDICATE A MOOD
DISORDER IN HIS BACKGROUND?
A. MAY I LOOK AT MY -- I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT MY REPORTS AND
NOTES BECAUSE IT'S A FAIRLY LONG CHRONOLOGY.
Q. THAT'S FINE. AND IN FACT, BEFORE YOU DO THAT, LET ME
ASK YOU TO IDENTIFY SOME EXHIBITS AS WELL, WHICH MIGHT BE
HELPPFUT..
LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
THIRTY TWO FOR IDENTIFICATION. I THINK IT SHOULD BE OVER
THERE ON THE RIGHT SOMEPLACE. WE SKIPPED THIRTY ONE.
A. RIGHT. THIS IS A -- LET ME SEE. THIS IS A
TRANSCRIPT, I BELIEVE, I CAN'T SEE WHERE IT'S FROM. IS THIS
UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, I THINK. i
Q. YES.
“A. ~ IT'S A TRANSCRIPT OF MR. BUNDY'S PERFORMANCE THERE,
HIS GRADES.
Q. AND EXHIBIT THIRTY THREE?
A. THERE IS A TRANSCRIPT FROM STANFORD WHEN MR. BUNDY
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
,
(a EAS
'
c
E
E
24
25
LEWIS-DIRECT-COLEHAN
194
WENT TO SUMMER SCHOOL AND THIS IS, THIS LOOKS LIKE SOME SORT
OF APPLICATION OR FORM THAT HE MADE OUT, PLANS, WHEN HE WAS
APPLYING TO GO TO THE SUMMER SCHOOL. IS THAT CORRECT? IT'S
NOT LABELED HERE, BUT I THINK THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Q. YES. AND EXHIBIT THIRTY FOUR B?
A. THIS IS A TRANSCRIPT FROM TEMPLE UNIVERSITY WHERE MR.
BUNDY SPENT ONE TERM IN 1969.
Q. EXHIBIT THIRTY FIVE?
A. THIS, LET ME SEE, IS, IT'S A LAW SCHOOL REPORT. I'M
NOT SURE WHAT THIS IS. IT'S A TRANSCRIPT OF SOMETHING, BUT
I CAN'T SEE -~ IT'S FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON. _
MR. COLEMAN: DR. LEWIS, I THINK EXHIBIT THIRTY
FIVE AND, YOUR HONOR, AT SOME POINT THE STATE AND WE ARE
GOING TO MEET AND AGREE ON THE ADMISSION OF CERTAIN OFFICIAL
RECORDS, AND SO I HAVE MARKED THESE DOCUMENTS FOR
IDENTIFICATION, BUT --
THE COURT: ANY OBJECTION TO THE ADMISSION OF THE
SCHOOL RECORDS?
MR. MEGINNIS: NO, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, THEY'LL BE
ADMITTED. ;
MR. MEGINNIS: I TAKE IT THEN THEY ARE ADMITTED?
THE COURT: YES.
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. EXHIBIT THIRTY SIX.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
3
a
Re RST
ees
be
24
25
195
A. EXHIBIT THIRTY SIX IS A TRANSCRIPT FROM THE UNIVERSITY
OF PUGET SOUND. AND I BELIEVE IT'S FROM FIRST TERM OF WHEN
MR. BUNDY HAD ENROLLED THERE, IT'S FALL '73. IT LOOKS AS IF
IT'S THE FIRST YEAR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PUGET SOUND LAW
SCHOOL.
Q. AND THIS IS LAW SCHOOL?
A. LAW SCHOOL.
Q. OKAY. EXHIBIT THIRTY SEVEN. EXHIBIT THIRTY SEVEN IS
A COMPILATION OF DOCUMENTS.
A. WELL, THE FRONT oF IT Is AN APPLICATION FOR ADMISSION
TO I THINK THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH LAW SCHOOL. LET. ME JUST
GLANCE THROUGH IT. AND ALSO THIS INCLUDES LETTERS TO THE
O THE ADMISSIONS COMMITTEE,
W
UNIVERSITY, LETTERS
COMMUNICATIONS THAT MR. BUNDY HAD WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF
UTAH LAW SCHOOL AND SOME TRANSCRIPTS OF GRADES.
Q. OKAY. YOU CAN REFER TO ANY OF THAT MATERIAL IN TAKING
US THROUGH THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU FOUND OF A MOOD DISORDER IN
MR. BUNDY'S HISTORY, AS WELL AS YOUR NOTES.
A. I'D LIKE TO LOOK AT THE REPORT THAT I ACTUALLY MADE,
THE INITIAL REPORT.
Q. THAT IS EXHIBIT THIRTY, I BELIEVE?
A. I HAVE MY OWN COPY WHERE I UNDERLINED PARTS.
Q. YES, YOU MAY PROCEED. - . 5 ~ —
Q. YOUR QUESTION WAS WHAT EVIDENCE WAS THERE OF A MOOD
DISORDER?
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
24
25
196
Q. YES.
A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT MR. BUNDY'S
a Sao
MOOD AND THAT HIS FUNCTIONING FLUCTUATE WIDELY, AND THAT
ee
FLUCTUATED WIDELY I WOULD SAY FROM AT LEAST 1967 UNTIL THE
PRESENT SO THAT WHAT I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT IS A PERIOD OF
TIME THAT SPANS THAT.
THE FIRST EVIDENCE OF A SEVERE MOOD DISORDER, TO
THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, OCCURRED IN I THINK IT WAS 1967
AFTER MR. BUNDY HAD SPENT A YEAR AT COLLEGE AND HAD _
APPARENTLY DONE ADEQUATELY, HE TOOK A SUMMER COURSE AT
STANFORD UNIVERSITY IN CHINESE LANGUAGE. HOWEVER, AT THAT
TIME HE BECAME EXTREMELY DEPRESSED AND HE WAS UNABLE TO
—————— a
FUNCTION AND HE DID NOT ATTEND HIS CLASSES. ON OCCASION HE
—_——
RETURNED HOME AND, ACCORDING TO HIS MOTHER, HE WAS
DISHEVELED AND HE WAS NOT HIMSELF AND HE WAS NOT -- AND SHE
NOTED THAT HE WAS EXTREMELY DEPRESSED. I BELIEVE HE WAS
ALSO TEARFUL AT TIMES AND AS I SAID, DOING VERY BADLY.
LET ME GIVE YOU A FEW QUOTES FROM HIM ALSO. BY
THE WAY, I SHOULD SAY THAT WHEN I FIRST INTERVIEWED MR.
BUNDY, HE WAS, AS FAR AS I COULD TELL, SUBLIMELY UNAWARE OF
THESE FLUCTUATIONS, AND IT WAS IN THE COURSE OF TALKING WITH
HIM, OF ASKING HIM ABOUT PARTICULAR PERIODS, THAT HE COULD ~
GIVE INFORMATION ABOUT THESE TIMES, BUT HE HAD ABSOLUTELY NO
INSIGHT INTO THESE WIDE FLUCTUATIONS UNTIL WE, YOU KNOW, HAD
KIND OF DOCUMENTED THE UPS AND DOWNS.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
=
f
eee
197
HE SAID THAT AT THE TIME WHEN HE WENT TO STANFORD
HE WAS UNABLE TO FOCUS ON HIS SCHOOL WORK. HE SAID QUOTE, I
DIDN'T GO TO CLASSES, IT BECAME A NIGHTMARE. IT'S LIKE
BEING DISCONNECTED, A PANICKY FEELING, BEING LOST AND
ALONE. HE WENT ON AND DESCRIBED IT AS A TIME WHEN HE FELT
DESPONDENT, HE FELT FEARFUL.
AND I ASKED HIM IF HE CRIED AND HE SAID I CRIED
LOTS. THERE WAS A CHAPEL, I WOULD GO IN AND WEEP. AND HE
SAID THAT ACTUALLY -- I ASKED ABOUT HIS APPETITE, BUT HE
INTERRUPTED THERE AND SAID I WAS SMOKING, I'M NOT A SMOKER.
BUT HE DID SAY THAT HE SKIPPED MEALS WHICH IS OFTEN
CHARACTERISTIC.
SOMETIMES DURING A DEPRESSION PEOPLE EAT AND EAT
AND EAT AND SOMETIMES THEY LOSE THEIR APPETITE.
“AND ACCORDING TO HIM HE DID NOT TAKE THE FINAL
EXAMINATION AT THE SUMMER SCHOOL. BUT EQUALLY IMPORTANT,
WHEN HE ATTEMPTED TO RETURN TO CLASSES THE NEXT FALL AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON HE WAS UNABLE TO ATTEND THE CLASSES
AND HE SAYS THAT HE DID NOT TAKE HIS FINAL EXAMINATIONS
THERE AS WELL. AND HE THEN, FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, I BELIEVE
HE DROPPED OUT OF SCHOOL.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER
THIRTY TWO WHICH IS THE TRANSCRIPT OF MR. BUNDY'S ENROLLMENT
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON.
A. RIGHT.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
J
E
if
:
24
25
198
Q. AND LET ME DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE PERIOD AUTUMN
QUARTER, '67, WINTER QUARTER, '68, AND CAN YOU TELL ME
WHETHER HIS PERFORMANCE DURING THOSE PERIODS WAS CONSISTENT
WITH WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
A. YES. WHAT IS INTERESTING ACTUALLY IS THE
JUXTAPOSITION OF THIS PERIOD AGAINST THE OTHER PERIODS IN
HIS ACADEMIC LIFE.
wa PRIOR TO SPRING OF '67, AUTUMN OF '67, HE HAD
GOTTEN "B'S" AND "C'S" AND AN "A" HERE AND THERE. THEN IN
THE AUTUMN OF '67, LET'S SEE, THERE IS A CODE HERE, THEY
HAVE A COUPLE OF "E'S" AND I KNOW THAT ISN'T EXCELLENT, I
THINK "E" IS A FAILURE, AS IN A, B, C, D, E, AND I THINK
"pw" WAS WHERE HE JUST WITHDREW FROM COURSES. AND AN "I"
WOULD BE AN INCOMPLETE. AND SO THIS IS THE WAY HE WAS
FUNCTIONING AUTUMN OF ‘67.
AND WHEN HE ATTEMPTED WINTER OF '68 HE SIMPLY, I
GUESS, WITHDREW. HE WAS UNABLE TO FUNCTION THERE SO THAT
THERE IS A PERIOD OF TIME THAT IS IN MARKED. CONTRAST TO HIS
PERFORMANCE PRIOR TO THAT AND SUBSEQUENT.
9.” NOW, FOLLOWING THE PERIOD THAT AT LEAST ON THE BASIS
OF EXHIBIT THIRTY TWO WENT THROUGH THE WINTER QUARTER OF
1968, DID YOU FIND EVIDENCE OF ANY MOOD CHANGES AFTER THAT?
A. YES. HE SUBSEQUENT TO ‘THIS HAD SEVERE DEPRESSION.
I SHOULD ADD, BY THE WAY, THAT IT'S RARE THAT ONE
CAN GET SUCH NICE OBJECTIVE DOCUMENTATION OF IMPAIRED
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
199
FUNCTIONING. USUALLY IT'S JUST TOLD TO YOU AND IT'S KIND OF
INTERESTING THAT YOU HAVE IT HERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.
4 BUT SUBSEQUENT TO THAT HE SAID THAT AROUND MAY OF
1968 THAT HIS DEPRESSION BEGAN TO LIFT AND THEN HE COULD
DOCUMENT WHAT SOUNDED LIKE A FAILY CLEAR MANIC EPISODE AND
THAT LASTED FROM ABOUT MAY '68 TO NOVEMBER OF '68.
AND AT THAT TIME HE BECAME EXTREMELY INVOLVED IN
POLITICS. HE GOT INVOLVED IN CAMPAIGN FOR THE LIEUTENANT
GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, GOT INVOLVED IN THE
ROCKEFELLER FOR PRESIDENT CAMPAIGN. HE ATTENDED A NATIONAL
CONVENTION. HE APPARENTLY WORKED EIGHTEEN HOUR DAYS.
I BELIEVE THIS WAS ALSO A PERIOD OF TIME THAT HE
/cor INTO KIND OF A DIRTY TRICKS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR IN THIS
KIND OF POLITICAL WORK THAT HE DID. AND HE DESCRIBED
HIMSELF AT THAT TIME AS SAYING THAT HE, HE MET, QUOTE, GREAT
PEOPLE, AND HE FELT CONNECTED AND HE JUST SAID HE WAS MORE
SOCIABLE, HE WAS MORE EXCITED, HE WAS MORE GREGARIOUS. HE
FELT ON TOP OF THE WORLD. - -
AND I ASKED HIM ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS AT THE TIME -
AND HE SAID HE WAS MORE SOCIALLY ADVENTUROUS. HE SAID HE
WAS ABLE TO MAKE CONNECTIONS WITH ANYONE AND IMPRESS THEM
JUST BY, AS HE PUT IT, THE FORCE OF POSITIVE VIBRATIONS. ~
AND HE TALKED ABOUT HIMSELF AS BEING CHARISMATIC AT THAT
TIME.
AND I ASKED HIM WHETHER HE WAS EVER OUTSPOKEN OR
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
;
:
1:
24
25
200
OPINIONATED BECAUSE THAT IS OFTEN CHARACTERISTIC OF A MANIC
TYPE OF PHASE, AND HE SAID THAT THIS WAS A TIME WHEN HE WAS
MORE OPINIONATED, SOMETIMES IN DISAGREEABLE WAYS. HE SAID I
RUBBED PEOPLE THE WRONG WAY.
HE SAID THAT HE REMEMBERED, ACTUALLY THAT HE COULD
REMEMBER TIMES BEFORE THAT WHEN HE WAS IN STATES LIKE THIS.
SC THIS MAY WELL HAVE ANTEDATED '67, BUT I WASN'T ABLE TO
DOCUMENT PREVIOUS DATES. BUT HE WOULD HAVE EPISODES WHERE
HE WOULD BE DEBATING PEOPLE, MADE HIS OPINIONS KNOWN, FELT
COMPELLED TO GET HIS Pont ACROSS. . _
HE SAID HE WOULD BECOME CONTENTIOUS, CRITICAL.
AND HE COULD BECOME INTOLERANT, HE COULD BECOME
INSENSITIVE. BUT ALSO, HE WAS, DURING TIMES LIKE THIS, AND
HE RECALLED PREVIOUS TIMES, SO MY GUESS IS THERE WERE
EPISODES THAT ANTEDATED THAT DEPRESSION, THAT HE ALSO WAS
EXTREMELY ACADEMICALLY SUCCESSFUL WHICH IS BY THE WAY NOT
THAT UNUSUAL IN A HYPOMANIC STATE. WHEN YOU ARE NOT
COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL YOU CAN OFTEN HAVE INCREDIBLE
ENERGY AND DO INCREDIBLE THINGS. IT'S JUST WHEN IT GETS OUT
OF CONTROL AND YOU SPIN YOUR WHEELS AND YOU DO A LOT OF WORK
BUT NOTHING GETS DONE.
SO ANYWAY, IT LOOKS AS THOUGH HE WENT INTO THIS
MANIC OR HYPOMANIC STATE, IT'S HARD TO TELL, DURING 1968,
DURING THAT CAMPAIGN. IT WAS FAIRLY SHORT LIVED.
THEN SUBSEQUENT TO THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER DOWN AND
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
Ba BET
aa Sey Er
24
25
HE TRIED TO PULL HIMSELF TOGETHER. AS I RECALL HE WROTE T
HIS GRANDFATHER AND HE SAID THAT HE WAS REALLY GETTING HIS
ACT TOGETHER AND HE WENT TO TEMPLE UNIVERSITY. AND
ACCORDING TO HIM HE HAD A LOT OF TROUBLE THERE, HE HAD
TROUBLE CONCENTRATING ON HIS WORK, FELT LONELY,
UNMOTIVATED. HE SAID HE FELT REMOVED FROM WHATEVER WAS
GOING ON AROUND HIM.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT WHAT WAS MARKED AS
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT THIRTY FOUR A. IT'S A LETTER.
A. I'M SORRY. -
Q. NOW, YOU REFERRED TO A LETTER FROM MR. BUNDY TO HIS
GRANDFATHER. CAN YOU IDENTIFY EXHIBIT THIRTY FOUR A?
A. THIS IS A LETTER THAT HE WROTE TO HIS GRANDFATHER.
SEE IT'S DATED 1~-9-69-
MR. MEGINNIS: i WOULD OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. I
DON'T KNOW THAT THERE IS ANY PREDICATE LAID FOR THIS AS TO
AUTHENTICITY AND AUTHORSHIP.
- THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE OBJECTION IS
OVERRULED.
BY MR. COLEMAN:
‘0
I
Q. LET ME ASK YOU, DR. LEWIS. IS THIS A LETTER THAT YOU
REFERRED TO THAT PRECEDED HIS- TRIP TO TEMPLE UNIVERSITY?
A. YEAH. I BELIEVE SO. IN FACT, I'M NOT POSITIVE, BUT
THIS COULD BE A LETTER THAT ARRIVED WHEN HE ARRIVED AT --
THAT HE AND IT ARRIVED SIMULTANEOUSLY. MY RECOLLECTION IS
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
a
24
25
LEwIiS-DIRECT-COLEMAN
202
THAT AT THAT POINT HE ARRIVED ON HIS GRANDFATHER'S DOORSTEP,
NOBODY EXPECTED HIM THERE, AND HE FINALLY HAD TO LIVE WITH
HIS AUNT AUDREY BECAUSE APPARENTLY THE GRANDPARENTS WERE NOT
PREPARED TO HOUSE HIM AT THAT TIME.
eee
Q. NOW, YOU'VE INDICATED THAT FOLLOWING HIS ENROLLMENT AT
TEMPLE THAT HE WENT ON AN UPSWING IN TERMS OF HIS -- IS THAT
CORRECT?
A. NO, I DIDN'T. NO. HIS DESCRIPTION WAS, HE DESCRIBED
IT AS HAVING SOME-DIFFICULTY CONCENTRATING, DOING HIS WORK,
FEELING LONELY, FEELING UNMOTIVATED, AND REMOVED FROM :
WHATEVER WAS GOING ON AROUND HIM, SO THAT I GUESS RIGHT AT
THE TIME THAT HE WAS AT TEMPLE HE, IT SOUNDS AS IF THIS WERE
A MODERATE KIND OF DOWN. MY RECOLLECTION THOUGH IS THAT HE
DID DO THE WORK AT TEMPLE SO THAT IT WAS FAR FROM THIS
SEVERE DEPRESSION. HE RECALLS IT AS A DOWN, BUT I BELIEVE,
I DON'T RECALL, I MIGHT HAVE THE TRANSCRIPT HERE, BUT I
BELIEVE THAT HE DID PASS HIS COURSES THERE SO THAT IT WAS
NOT, I THINK HE WAS FUNCTIONING A WHOLE LOT BETTER THAN HE
HAD BEEN IN, WHAT WAS IT, '67.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT THIRTY
FOUR B WHICH IS A TEMPLE UNIVERSITY TRANSCRIPT.
A. I'M HAVING TROUBLE FINDING THIRTY FOUR B. _
IT'S HERE. HERE HE DID CONSIDERABLY BETTER THAN
HE HAD-AT, WHEN HE DROPPED OUT OF COLLEGE, AND HE GOT AN "A"
AND HE GOT A COUPLE OF "B'S" AND HE DID GET ONE INCOMPLETE
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
-~
Rana
q
Ba
i
ec
NWA? Eee
(
XL
203
IN THE, IN, I GUESS THE COURSE THAT HAD THE LARGEST NUMBER
OF CREDITS, BUT ON THE WHOLE HE WAS CLEARLY DOING A LOT
BETTER THAN HE HAD BEFORE.
Q. NOW, WAS THERE ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE FOLLOWING THE
PERIOD THAT HE WAS IN PHILADELPHIA OF MOOD CHANGES?
A. LET ME FIND THIS AGAIN. APPARENTLY HE THEN WENT BACK,
ACCORDING TO HIM, BUT I BELIEVE IT'S CONFIRMED IN PART BY
THE TRANSCRIPTS, HE FELT THAT HE COULD AT THE END OF THIS
PERIOD GO BACK TO THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON AND ‘THERE HIS
RECOLLECTION WAS THAT HE DID BETTER. LET ME JUST LOOK
BECAUSE WE HAVE THAT TRANSCRIPT HERE. ,
RIGHT. NOW, WHEN HE RETURNED TO THE UNIVERSITY OF
WASHINGTON HE DID CONSIDERABLY BETTER. IT'S INTERESTING, HE
ALWAYS SEEMS TO MESS UP ONE SUBJECT THAT HE TAKES, BUT HE
GOT "A'S" AND HE GOT "B'S", EXCEPT FOR SOME INCOMPLETES OR
WITHDRAWALS, BUT HE CLEARLY WAS DOING A WHOLE LOT BETTER IN
'70, '71 WHEN HE RETURNED TO WASHINGTON.
pilin es
Q. AND HOW LONG DID THIS PERIOD LAST? —
A. WELL, LET ME SEE.
a BY THE WAY, AS FAR AS I COULD TELL, THIS WAS Not
JUST A DOING BETTER, BUT if SOUNDS AS IF HE HAD STARTED TO
GO INTO A SORT OF HIGH AGAIN. “AND HE SAID THAT HE WORKED
WELL, HE GOT "A'S" AND "B'S", HE COULD WORK ALL NIGHT LONG.
HE ALSO COULD HAVE A PART-TIME JOB WHEN HE DELIVERED FOR A
MEDICAL SUPPLY COMPANY. AND HE ALSO SAID HE WAS NOT ONLY
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
;
:
E
24
25
204
DOING VERY WELL ACADEMICALLY, HE WAS EXTREMELY SEXUALLY
ACTIVE WITH A GIRLFRIEND OF HIS. AND HE STARTED A NEW MAJOR
IN PSYCHOLOGY.
BUT AS I'VE NOTED HERE, I SAID THAT THIS WAS, HIS
HIGH WAS FAIRLY SHORT LIVED, AND DURING THE LAST SEMESTER AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON HE BEGAN TO BECOME DEPRESSED
AGAIN.
AgASSS
LET ME LOOK AT THIS AND SEE.
NOW, AT THE VERY END HE GETS A WITHDRAWAL FROM HIS
UNDERGRADUATE RESEARCH AND HE MENTIONED TO ME HE WAS HAVING
A LOT OF TROUBLE AT THAT TIME CONCENTRATING ON HIS OWN
RESEARCH. SO THIS WAS THE, AGAIN, THE BEGINNING OF A DOWN.
Q. NOW, DR. LEWIS, AT THE TIME THAT YOU INTERVIEWED MR.
BUNDY AND THE REPORT THAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO, DID YOU
HAVE THE TRANSCRIPTS OF HIS COLLEGE PERFORMANCE?
A. NO, I DIDN'T. IN FACT, I THINK I JUST SAW THESE MAYBE
A COUPLE WEEKS AGO.
Q. ~ NOW, FOLLOWING HIS GRADUATION FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF
WASHINGTON, DID YOU FIND EVIDENCE OF SUBSEQUENT MOOD
CHANGES?
A. YEAH. AFTER HIS GRADUATION HE GOT A JOB INA
PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL AND HE SAID HE LOST INTEREST IN
PSYCHOLOGY AND HE SAID, QUOTE, HE FELT UNCOMFORTABLE WITH
SOME OF MY RELATIONSHIPS. AND HE HAD PLANNED TO GO TO
GRADUATE SCHOOL IN PSYCHOLOGY AND HIS PLANS CHANGED. HE
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
ae
z
2
23
24
2
wu
| 205
DECIDED HE WOULD TRY LAW SCHOOL. AND HE ENROLLED IN A NIGHT
PROGRAM AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PUGET SOUND.
AND AGAIN, ACCORDING TO HIM AT THIS TIME HE SAYS
HE BECAME, BUT If LOOKS AS IF HE'S BEEN SLIDING INTO THIS
FOR AWHILE, EXTREMELY DEPRESSED. AND AGAIN, HE DID NOT
ATTEND CLASSES, DID NOT GO TO HIS FINAL EXAMINATION AND
SEEMED TO BE IN A SIGNIFICANT DEPRESSION AT THAT TIME.
INDEED, HE DID REALIZE THAT HE WAS FUNCTIONING VERY BADLY
. AND_SO HE_APPLIED..TO THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH LAW SCHOOL AT
THAT TIME. I GUESS HOPING THAT HE WOULD COME OUT OF THIS.
AND HE CONCEALED THE FACT THAT HE WAS FLUNKING OUT OF THE
UNIVERSITY OF PUGET SOUND LAW SCHOOL.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT A PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT THIRTY
SIX WHICH IS THE TRANSCRIPT OF HIS ENROLLMENT AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF PUGET SOUND SCHOOL OF LAW.
A. RIGHT.
Q. AND WAS HIS TRANSCRIPT HERE CONSISTENT WITH WHAT HE
DESCRIBED TO YOU AS HIS MOOD DURING THIS PERIOD?
A. I HAVE TO FIND OUT WHAT "WP" MEANS. I THINK IT MEANS
THAT HE WITHDREW. . -
Q. I THINK THAT'S CORRECT.
A. I DON'T SEE -- a 7
Q. IF YOU LOOK AT THE --
A. IT LOOKS -- EVERYTHING SAYS "WP". RIGHT. THERE IS A
Lan
¥ NOTATION HERE THAT ON 4-9-74 HE HAD WITHDRAWN QUOTE, IN GOOD
a
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
:
24
25
LEWIS-DIRECT-COLEMAN
el
206
STANDING, BUT HE DID NOT PASS ANY OF HIS COURSES.
Q. NOW, YOU INDICATE THAT HE MAY HAVE RECOGNIZED THAT HE
WAS IN A DEPRESSION AND WAS NOT FUNCTIONING AND THEREFORE
APPLIED TO THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH SCHOOL OF LAW, IS THAT
CORRECT?
A. YES, THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.
Q. NOW, WHAT WAS HIS MOOD LIKE ONCE HE ENROLLED AT THE
UNIVERSITY?
A. MY RECOLLECTION.IS THAT AT FIRST HE-HAD NOT-YET COME
OUT OF HIS DEPRESSION AND THAT HE DID BADLY. BUT HE WAS
STARTING TO COME OUT OF THE DEPRESSION AND HE MANAGED TO
CONVINCE HIS PROFESSORS NOT TO KICK HIM OUT. THERE MIGHT BE
A TRANSCRIPT --
Q. THERE IS A TRANSCRIPT. PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT OR
PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT THIRTY SEVEN WHICH IS A COLLECTION OF
DOCUMENTS FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH. THE SECOND PAGE, I_
BELIEVE, IS THE TRANSCRIPT.
RIGHT. IN THE FALL OF THAT YEAR, AGAIN, I DON'T
SEE THE YEAR ON IT -- "74, "755 HE WAS GETTING "crs", HE GOT
ONE "C PLUS" AND THEN HE WAS GETTING A COUPLE OF INCOMPLETES
AND WAS DOING BADLY. HOWEVER, HE WAS ABLE TO IMPROVE TO
SOME EXTENT AND BY SPRING HE WAS GETTING "c's" AND A "B" AND
I THINK HE HAD AN INCOMPLETE THERE.
AND THEN WHAT IS INTERESTING IS BY SUMMER HE HAS
BROUGHT HIS GRADES, HE'S ONLY TAKING TWO COURSES BUT HE'S
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
LEWIS-DIRECT-COLEMAN
207
1 GETTING B'S. SO CLEARLY SOMETHING THEN PICKED UP AGAIN.
¢ 2 Q. AND THIS WOULD BE SUMMER, 1975?
: 3 A. I GUESS SO, YES. NO. ACTUALLY THIS SAYS, WELL, iT
| 4 SAYS "75, '76, $0 THAT BY THE TIME -- THAT DOESN'T MAKE
a 5 SENSE THOUGH. MY GUESS IS THAT IT'S '75 THAT THEY'RE
: 6 TALKING ABOUT. IT'S PROBABLY, THEY PROBABLY SAY THAT
7 BECAUSE IT'S A YEAR THAT GOES ROUND INTO '76, BUT THIS WOULD
8 HAVE BEEN, I THINK THE SUMMER OF '75, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.
F
E
9 THE COURT: LET'S TAKE ABOUT A FIFTEEN MINUTE
RECESS AT THIS TIME.
ped
b
°
11 (BRIEF RECESS.)
25
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
208
(AT THIS TIME THE JUDGE ENTERS THE COURTROOM).
(AT THIS TIME MISS LEWIS RESUMES THE WITNESS
STAND).
THE COURT: MR. COLEMAN, YOU MAY PROCEED.
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. Doctor LEWIS, WE WERE DISCUSSING MR. BUNDY'S
PERFORMANCE IN LAW SCHOOL AT THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH.
AND I THINK YOU SAID THAT INITIALLY HE WAS HAVING
PROBLEMS AND THEN HE SEEMED TOWARDS THE SCHOOL YEAR 1875 AND
1876, SUMMER I BELIEVE TO COME OUT OF THAT.
BUT COULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THE PROBLEMS WERE
INITIALLY THAT YOU IDENTIFIED?
A. WELL, ACCORDING TO HIM, HE SAID THAT HE COULD NOT
ATTEND, HE BECAME VERY DEPRESSED, HE SAID HE COULDN'T ATTEND
CLASSES, SAID HE STAYED HOME, HE WATCHED TELEVISION, AND HE
HAD NEVER BEEN INTERESTED IN TELEVISION BEFORE, DIDN*T CARE
ABOUT IT, AND HE SAID EVEN AT THAT TIME HE SMOKED POT, WHICH
HE DIDN'T USUALLY DO. - - _ - oe nee
. AND HE SAID QUOTE I JUST COULDN'T BRING MYSELF TO
Go TO » I WOULD SLEEP LATE, I STAYED IN THE HOUSE, I
CUT THE A GRASS, I WAS MANAGER OF THE HOUSE I WAS IN, AND SO
HE JUST COULD NOT PULL HIMSELF TOGETHER EVEN TO GET OUT OF
BED AND GO THE CLASS.
MR. MEGINNIS: I BELIEVE THAT I HAVE BEEN
red
ee os a
—
LEWIS —- DIRECT — COLEMAN
209
WITNESSING THIS WITNESS READ FROM A DOCUMENT THAT IS NOT IN
EVIDENCE. IT IS CLEARLY MARKED, AND I WOULD PREFER THAT IT
BE INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE IF SHE'S GOING TO READ FROM IT.
MR. COLEMAN: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.
THE COURT: IT WILL BE AOMITTED.
MR. COLEMAN: THEN I MOVE AT THIS POINT FOR THE
ADMISSION OF ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT I HAVE MARKED IN
CONNECTION WITH DOCTOR LEWIS'S TESTIMONY, WHICH ARE THE
REPORTS, THREE OR FOUR FOUR THREE REPORTS. oO
MR. COLEMAN: YES.
BY MR. COLEMAN:
©. YOU MAY CONTINUE?
A I THINK THAT'S IT_ HE SURSFOUENTLY, T DID MENTION
THOUGH THAT THEN DURING THE SECOND SEMESTER, HIS MOOD
LIFTED, AND APPARENTLY FAIRLY DRAMATICLY, AND HE SAID THAT
HE HAD STARTED TO ENJOY GOING TO CLASS, THAT I MET A LOT OF
KIDS, I GOT INTO A COMR(DERIE, AND HE SAID THAT ACTUALLY iT
WAS ABOUT A MONTH AFTER THE 8EGINNING OF HIS SECOND YEAR AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH THAT HE WAS PICKED OUT OF THE LINE UP
AND HE WAS ARRESTED, BUT HE WAS ON AN UPSWING, I GUESS, AT
THAT POINT AND DOING BETTER.
Q. NOW FOLLOWING HIS ARREST IN UTAH, DID YOU FIND
EVIDENCE OF MOOD CHANGES?
A. THERE I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES.
WELL, AGAIN, THIS IS AS I UNDERSTAND WHAT OCCURED
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
210
IN TERMS OF WHAT HIS LAWYERS DESCRIBED, THAT INITIALLY WHEN
HE FIRST WAS ARRESTED, AND HE MET HIS LAWYERS, ORIGINALLY HE
acacia aetna
SEEMED LIKE A PERFECTLY NORMAL CLIENT, WHICH BY THE WAY IS
CHARACTERISTIC OF A MANIC DEPRESSIVE ILLNESS. THERE ARE
STAGES WHERE A PERSONS IS ASSOLUTELY COHERENT. FUNCTIONING
WELL, DOING OKAY, KIND OF REMISSION; AND THEN, HOWEVER, IN
THE COURSE OF HIS TRIAL SOMETHING CHANGED, AND HE STARTED TO
BECOME FLIPPENT, HE WAS IN, AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
INAPPROPRIATE IN THE COURT, WOULD CALL THE PROSECUTOR 8Y HIS
FIRST NAME, WOULD WRITE LETTERS TO THE JUDGE, AND APPARENTLY
EVEN WHEN HE WAS CONFRONTED WITH AN ARREST WARRANT FOR
MURDER, FOR FOR MURDER IN THE STATE OF COLORADO HE BRUSHED
IT OFF, THOUGHT IT WAS NOTHING, AND THEN THROGGH HIMSELF
INTO BECOMING AN EXPERT IN THE LAWS OF COLORADO. SO HE AT
THIS POINT REALLY DIDN'T SEEM TO APPRECIATE THE JEOPARDY
THAT HE WAS IN, WHAT THE EVIDENCE WAS LIKE, BUT WAS KIND_OF
HIGH AS A KITE.
Q. FOLLOWING THAT, DID YOU CONTINUE TO FIND EVIDENCE OF
MOODS?
A. WELL, AGAIN WHEN HE WAS IN COLORADO, AS FAR AS I CAN
RECONSTRUCT IT, THIS HIGH KIND OF CONTINUED, AND THERE HE
SPENT HIS TIME WRITING MOTIONS, WRITING BRIEFS. HE EVEN
BELIEVE, FILED A MOTION TO ATTEND A CONFERENCE FOR DEFENSE
LAWYERS, THIS KIND OF A GRANDIOS, FLIPPENT, JUST A TOTAL
LACK OF APPRECIATION OF WHAT IS CIRCUMSTANCES WERE LIKE, AND
a
Beige REd
3
Renee
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
217
AS I UNDERSTAND IT OR I CAN RECONSTRUCT IT, HE, YOU KNOW,
PLANNED KIND OF DARING SORT OF ESCAPES, AND INDEED HE DID
ESCAPE ON TWO OCCASIONS.
NOW, THE ONE THAT I ASKED MOST ABOUT AND KNOW MOST
ABOUT WAS THE SECOND ESCAPE, AND I COULD TELL YOU ABOUT THAT
BECAUSE THERE WAS A DRAMATIC KIND OF SERIES OF EVENTS, AND A
DRAMATIC CHANGE IN MOOD THAT OCCURRED-
I WOULD HAVE TO AGAIN LOOK AT MY NOTES.
Q. WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT AND LET'S TURN THEN TO THE
PERIOD FOLLOWING HIS SECOND ESCAPE.
A. WELL, WHEN HE WAS ON THE RUN, WHEN HE HAD LEFT
COLORADO, HE APPARENTLY FELT TERRIFIC, AND HE TRAVELED
FROM-- I FORGET THE WHOLE ROUTE, BUT I THINK HE FLEW TO
CHICAGO, 10 JHE TOOK THE A TRAIN TO MICHIGAN, I FORGET WHERE
HE WENT, AND THEN TOOK THE CAR DOWN TO ATLANTA, WAS GOING
AND GOING AND GOING, AND LET'S SEE, WHAT DID HE TELL ME?
HE SAID HE HAD GONE FROM GLENN SPRING TO DENVER,
tee Zane
Wi BD
FROM DENVER BY PLANE TO CHICAGO, FROM CHICAGO TO ANARBOR;~ I
GUESS BY PLANE FROM CHICAGO THE ANARBOR AND THEN STOLEN CAR
TO ATLANTA, GEORGIA, AND HE DESCRIBED HIMSELF AS BEING QUOTE
HIGH AS A_KITE, AND I SAID THE HIM, WELL, DID YOU HAVE ANY
DRUGS DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, BECAUSE THAT COULD CREATE
A HIGH, AND HE SAID HE HAD NOT.
HE SAID THAT HE ONLY HAD BEER WHILE HE WAS IN
ANARBOR.
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
212
AND I ASKED HIM WHETHER THERE WAS ANY TIME WHEN
THIS KIND OF HIGH ENDED AND HE SAID I CAN TELL YOU THE
ala natin nated
PRECISE MOMENT THAT IT ENDED, AND HE SAID THAT IT ENDED
WHILE HE WAS WAITING FOR A BUS AT THE OMNI CENTER IN
ATLANTA, AND HE SAID ALL OF THE SUDDEN I COULD FEEL IT DRAIN
OUT, AND AT THAT POINT HE FELT DEPRESSED AND FELT LONLEY, HE
FELT LOST, THIS WAS AROUND JANUARY THIRD OR FOURTH, I THINK,
AND IT WAS AT THAT TIME THAT HE WENT INTO A DOWN, AND I
BELIEVE HE WAS PROBABLY IN THAT STATE WHEN HE ARRIVED IN
FLORIDA.
QO. THIS IS JANUARY OF 1978?
A. RIGHT.
8. NOW FOLLOWING THAT, WERE THERE OTHER, WAS THERE OTHER
EVIDENCE OF MOODS ONCE HE ARRIVED IN FLORIDA?
A. WELL, I CAN ONLY TELL YOU WHAT I HAVE SEEN ABLE TO
PIECE TOGETHER FROM HIM AND FROM LETTER THAT I READ THAT HIS
WIFE CAROL SOONEWROTE ABOUT TAKING WITH HIM AT THE TIME OF
HIS ARREST AND IS AFTER HIS ARREST. APPARENTLY AT THAT TIME
HE WAS STILL IN ONE OF THESE DOWNS THAT HE WAS RAMBLING, HE
WAS NOT COHERENT, HE WAS DISCHEVELE HE WAS QUITE A
DIFFERENT TED BUNDY FROM THE PREVIOUS ONE WHO HAD BEEN IN
CAMPAIGNS, WHATEVER. -
AND HE ALSO AT THAT TIME WOULD STAY UP LATE AND
TALK WITH POLICE, AND JUST GO ON AND ON, I HAVE LISTENED TO
SOME OF THE TAPES, AND HE JUST SEEMS TO HAVE A NEED TO BE
o~
E
E
erry
E
—
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
213
WITH PEOPLE, AND TO TALK WITH PEOPLE, AND TO THEY ARE NOT
ALWAYS THE MOST COHERENT OR THE MOST CONCISE THINGS, BUT HE
SEEMED TO HAVE SOME KIND OF NEED TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING,
MAYBE HE COULDN'T SLEEP, IT'S A VERY POSSIBLE THAT WAS ONE
OF THE ISSUES, BUT APPARENTLY HE HAD BEEN WARNED AND HE HAD
BEEN TOLD 8Y HIS ATTORNEYS TO NOT TALK WITH ANYBODY AND NOT
TALK WITH POLICE, AT LEAST NOT UNLESS THEY WERE AROUND, HE
WAS ABSOLUTELY UNABLE TO DO THIS DURING THAT TIME.
THEN HE WAS APPARENTLY INDICTED IN JULY OF ‘78,
AND AT THAT TIME I THINK THERE WAS A BRIEF PERIOD WHEN HE
BECAME OVER CONFIDENT, HE SAID HE WAS READY TO GO TO TRIAL,
DIDN’T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS STATE WAS WAITING.
HOWEVER, BETWEEN AUGUST AND OCTOBER OF THE TIME
WHEN HE was TO GO TO TRIAL, HE TO BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, WAS
vw
UNABLE TO WORK ON HIS CASE AT ALL. THAT HE REALLY DID
NOTHING OF ANY USEFULNESS. IN OCTOBER HE HAD TO ASK FOR A
CONTINUANCE. _
THEN IN OCTOBER AGAIN THERE WAS A PERIOD THAT WAS
FAIRLY DRAMATIC, WHERE HE AGAIN WENT INTO ONE OF HIS HIGHS
BUT THIS TIME HE WAS WORKING AND WORKING AND WORKING, 8UT HE
WAS REALLY ACCOMPLISHING NOTHING. IT WAS AT THAT TIME, I
THINK BETWEEN OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER OF "78, THAT HE ACTUALLY _
TOOK NINETY DEPOSITIONS, AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HE WAS
BUSY, HE WAS RAVENOUSLY EATING CHOCOLATES AND CANDY AND
STUFF LIKE THAT, WHICH SY THE WAY APPETITE CHANGES OFTEN
>
:
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT — COLEMAN
214
OCCUR BURING HIGHS AND LOWS. AND AGAIN I REVIEWED SOME OF
THE DEPOSITIONS AND I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY, BUT THEY CERTAINLY
DON'T SEEM TO GO ANY_LWHERE. THEY SEEM TO BE WORDS, WORDS,
BUT NOTHING THAT IS EXTROARDINARILY USEFUL TO HIS CASE, AND
I UNDERSTAND THAT ATTORNEYS DID NOT FIND MANY OF THEM USEFUL
AND HE HAD TO RETAKE THEM, BUT HE’S GOING AND GOING AND
GOING, AND HE'S HIS OWN LAWYER THEN.
APPARENTLY HE FILED A FLURY OF MOTIONS. AND HE
INTERFERED WITH HIS LAWYERS, 8UT APPARENTLY ACCORDING TO HIS
LAWYERS, HE COULD NOT COMPREHEND WHAT THE EVIDENCE WAS,
WHICH HAPPENS DURING HIGHS. - -
AND THIS MUST HAVE GONE ON FOR QUITE A PERIOD OF
TIME.
IN MAY HE WAS EVALUATED BY DOCTOR TANAY, AND AT
THAT TIME DOCTOR TINAY DESCRIBES HIM AS GRANDIOS, AS
TREATING HIM KIND OF LIKE A NEWSPAPER REPORTER, AS KINDS OF
ORCHESTRATING WHERE THE SHEFIFFS DEPUTY SIT, KIND OF TAKING
OVER, AND CERTAINLY BEING INAPPROPRIATE. _
HE, THEN APPARENTLY IN MAY OF 1979, HE WAS OFFERED
A PLEA THAT IF HE CONFESSED TO THE MURDERS OF WHICH HE WAS
WAS ACCUSED HIS LIVE WOULD 8E SPARED. AND AS I TRIED TO
RECONSTRUCT THAT, IT'S NOT THAT EASY TO RECONSTRUCT, THAT
PERIOD OF TIME, IT SOUNDS AS IF HE WAS VERY CONFUSED, THAT
HE WAS IN A SORT OF AGITATED STATE, WHERE ONE TIME HE
THOUGHT AND SAW ONE THING, ANOTHER TIME HE THOUGHT ANOTHER,
LEWIS - DIRECT - COLEMAN
215
AS I UNDERSTAND IT HE SIGNED ONE AGREEMENT TO TO THIS PLEA,
AND THEN SUDDENLY CHANGED HIS MIND STAYED UP ALL NIGHT, THE
NIGHT SEFORE, HE WAS TO ACCEPT THE PLEA, AND THEN FIRED HIS
LAWYER, MR. MINERVA, AND DECIDED TO TAKE OVER HIS CASE-~
SO HERE AGAIN YOU GET THIS KIND, THESE WILD
FLUCTUATIONS, AND THIS KIND OF INABILITY TO FUNCTION
EFFECTIVELY.
THEN I SAW SOME OF THE TAPES OF THE ACTUAL CHI
OMEGA TRIAL, AND YOU KNOW, READ SOME OF THE TRANSCRIPTS, AND
HE TALKED AND TALKED AND TALKED AT LEAST ON SOME OF THE
TAPES I SAW, AND SEEMED UNABLE TO SORT OF GIVE UP THE FLOOR,
BUT WAS NOT TERRIBLY EFFECTIN
<
— COUNSEL FOR HIMSELF, AND HE
APPARENTLY, EVEN AT THAT TIME, WOULD CROSS EXAMINE
et
WITNESSES, AND HE WOULD ELICIT VERY DAMAGING KINDS OF
EVIDENCE OF MATERIAL, THERE WAS ONE TIME, I DON'T REMEMBER
WHO THE OFFICER WAS BUT I THINK HE WAS INTERVIEWING AN
OFFICER WHO HAD FOUND THE 80DIES, AND HE COULDN'T STOP
HIMSELF, HE WENT ON ASKING ABOUT THE DETAILS AND THE BLOOD
AND WHERE BODIES WERE, AND THESE SORTS OF THINGS, SO CLEARLY
HE WAS NOT IN A STATE WHERE HE COULD HANDLE THIS IN A
JUDICIOUS MATTER, OR MANNER THAT WAS HELPFUL TO HIMSELF.
HE APPARENTLY ALSO WOULD BE KIND OF GLIB, HE WOULD
WAIVE AND SAY HI TO A JURY, HE WAS VERY EAGER TO TALK TO THE
PRESS, AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT HIS LAWYERS JUST FELT THEY HAD
ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OVER IT, WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND HE
LEWIS — DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
COULDN'T BE REASONED WITH, COULD NOT 8— FOCUSED--
Q. LET ME INTERRUPT YOU FOR A SECOND TO GO BACK TO
SOMETHING.
YOU INDICATED THAT AT THE TIME THAT MR. BUNDY WAS
INVOLVED IN TRYING TO DECIDE WHETHER TO ACCEPT A PLEA
AGREEMENT, THAT HE APPEARED TO BE AGITATED STATE, AND YOU
SAID YOU COULDN'T TELL WHETHER, WHAT THE MOOD WAS.
WAS THERE ANY EVIDENCE REFLECTED IN NURSES’ NOTES
OR PRISONS RECORDS THAT, THAT WOULD SUGGEST ONE WAY OR THE
OTHER--
A. WELL, I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT TIMING OF THE NOTES.
I
DID REVIEW NOTES FROM THE PRISON, AND THERE WAS A PERIOD OF
TIME WHEN VE HE WAS SUICIDA AND WHEN HE WAS PUT ON
A SUICIDAL “WATCH. THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN I AM NOT
SURE IF THAT WAS WHEN HE FLOODED HIS CELL, I CAN*T RECALL
IT, THE DATE OF THAT, IT COULD HAVE BEEN HE, IS AND THERE
WAS ONE ACCOUNT, BUT AGAIN I DON'T RECALL THE DATES WHEN HE
WAS, HE ACTED QUITE PECULARIALLY IF you COULD SHOW ME, I
REMEMBER SEEING THE REPORT, BUT I DON'T RECALL THE DATES
THIS IS IN MAY OF "78, WHERE HE SAID THAT I GUESS IT'S
NURSES NOTE HE ASKED TO SEE THE CLINIC. HE WAS DEPRESSED
AND STATED HE NEEDED TO TALK TO SOMEONE, ‘STATED HE HAD NOT
TAKEN MEDICATION LAST NIGHT, BUT HAD TAKEN IT IN THE
MORNING. . - ~
THERE WERE OTHER-—
{
LEWIS ~- DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
217
vy
MR. MEGINNIS: I THINK SHE'S READING FROM A
;
DOCUMENT THAT I DON’T THINK HAS BEEN INTRODUCED IN EVIDENCE.
[ 3 MR. COLEMAN: IT HAS NOT, AGAIN IT’S PART OF THE
4 | OFFICIAL RECORD. I
5 . MR. MEGINNIS: I DON'T THINK WE HAVE SEEN IT.
7 | THE FLORIDA STATE PRISON, BUT IT IS ACTUALLY EXCERPTS FROM,
E 8 | SHE'S READING AN ENTRY IN THE NURSES NOTES FROM THE LEON
E 9 | COUNTY, I THOUGHT. -
- 10 THE COURT: ANY OF THESE DOCUMENTS WHICH SHE
Leia
REFERENCES WILL BE ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE UNLESS THE STATE
OBJECTS TO ANY PARTICULAR DOCUMENT.
|
:
{
|
|
|
|
I
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
a 6 | MR. COLEMAN: IT'S PART OF THE OFFICIAL RECORDS OF
!
i
|
|
|
MR. COLEMAN: WE WILL.
MR. MEGINNIS: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE I WOULD SHE'S H
READING FROM.
MR. COLEMAN: I WILL GIVE YOU A COPY.
YOUR HONOR. SORRY TO INTERRUPT.
:
|
17 MR. MEGINNIS: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT. THANK You,
THE WITNESS: IS THERE ANY, ANYTHING ELSE HERE?
FROM, WHERE THERE'S A DESCRIPTION OF SOME REALLY ooD
BEHAVIOR OF HIS KIND OF LOOKING OVER HIS SHOULDER AND
STUFF. I DON'T RECALL IF IT'S FROM THIS PERIOD OR NOT.
[ci a 2
Nn
nN
24 BY MR. COLEMAN:
20 THERE WAS ANOTHER NURSING NOTE, I DON'T RECALL WHERE IT'S
|
|
Oo. JUST A SECOND. I AM GOING TO SHOW THIS To MR.
25
om
Ye
mr
prey
oney
ied
24
25
|
|
|
|
|
|
LEWIS -— DIRECT - COLEMAN
218 -
MAGINNIS?
MR. COLEMAN: I AM GOING TO HAND DOCTOR LEWIS AN
ENTRY FROM THE LEON COUNTY SHEFIFFS OFFICE, 8UT I BELIEVE
THE DATE IS OCTOBER STH, 1978.
THE WITNESS: RIGHT. I THINK THAT WAS THE NURSES
NOTE THAT I THINK PARTICULARLY-- YES.
MR. MEGINNIS: I DON'T THINK THAT'S A NURSES NOTE,
IS IT?
THE WITNESS: LET ME JUST SEE. ~ SUBJECT FROM
JANICE TURNER, RN, YES. THIS IS THE NOTE THAT WAS MORE
INTERESTING TO ME.
IT'S DATED OCTOBER SIX, '78, AND SAYS THAT DATE HE
HAD FLOODED HIS CELL. AND WHEN MR. GOLDEN I GUESS THE
DIRECTOR OF THAT PRISON ARRIVED, THEY SAID MR. BUNDY'S VOICE
WAS LOUD AS HE WAS SPEAKING TO MR. GOLDENS QUESTION, EXACT
REP ITATION OF MR. GOLDENS, THAT’S CALLED ECHOALLIA, AND IT
SOUNDS AS THOUGH, IT'S 4 PUZZLE SECAUSE YOU OFTEN SEE THIS
KIND OF @CHOALLIA IN EXTREMELY DISTURBED PSYCHOTIC —
INDIVIDUALS, SOMETIMES CHILDREN WHO REPEAT EXACTLY WHAT IS
SAID TO THEM, BUT THIS KIND OF LOUDNESS AND REPETITION
SUGGESTS HE WAS IN A VERY EXCITED KIND OF STATE HERE.
LET'S SEE, THERE WAS A REQUEST HERE THAT HE STAND
IN THE HALL AT A CERTAIN PLACE, AND THEY JUST, APPARENTLY
THIS PERSON THOUGHT HIS S8EHAVIOUR WAS PECULIAR, HE STOOD
WITH HIS RIGHT SHOULDER AGAINST THE WALL, HAD HAD A ROLLED
¢
2
é
rN
LEWIS ~ DIRECT -— COLEMAN
219
UP MAGAZINE IN HIS LEFT HAND, WOULDN'T COMMUNICATE
VERBALLY. AND THEN SUBSEQUENT TO THAT LAST REPORT THAT HIS
CELL DOOR VIBRATED AND THERE WAS LOUD BANGING ON THE CELL
DOOR, ONCE THEY GOT HIM BACK INTO HIS CELL, AND SO I ASSUME
HE WAS IN THIS VERY EXCITED STATE. AND THEN APPARENTLY IT
ENDED AND AT FIVE P.M. HE WAS-- NURSE PUTS IT BACK TO
HIMSELF. I THINK, LET ME SEE, NO, I AM SORRY, HE WAS JUST
CALM AND RELAXED. THAT'S WHAT I RECALL, AND APPARENTLY HIS
MOODS AND HIS FUNCTIONING FLUCTUATED TREMENDOUSLY DURING
THAT PERIOD OF TIME. :
MR. COLEMAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE
OCTOBER 6TH, 1978 REPORT FROM THE LEON COUNTY SHEFIFFS
OFFICE AS EXHIBIT FORTY, AND I WOULD GIVE IT TO MR. MAGINNIS
BECAUSE I ONLY HAVE ONE COPY OF IT AND HE CAN USE i
MR. MEGINNIS: MAY MAY I ASK A COUPLE QUESTIONS ON
VOIR DIRE? 7
BY MR. MEGINNIS:
Q. DOCTOR, I TAKE IT THIS IS SOMETHING YOU REVIEWED VERY
RECENTLY, IS IT NOT? ~ 7 7
A. - I MIGHT HAVE SEEN IT A WHILE BACK. I DON'T KNOW. I
ONLY RECALL IT FROM VERY RECENTLY, BUT THERE WAS SO MUCH
THAT--
Q. EXCUSE ME. I DIDN'T MEAN THE INTERRUPT YOU?
A. ° 1 WAS SAYING THAT I CAN'T TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN WHETHER
I SAW IT MANY MONTHS AGO. MY ONLY RECOLLECTION IS VERY
LEWIS - DIRECT — COLEMAN
220 |
|
C 1 RECENTLY SEEING IT. |
2 Q- WHERE DID YOU GET IT?
|
3 A. I GUESS, WELL HERE I JUST GOT IT FROM.
|
4 Q. WHEN DID YOU FIRST GET IT?
5 A. I AM NOT CERTAIN WHEN I FIRST GOT IT. IT WAS, I
6 LOOKED AT IT YESTERDAY EVENING, AGAIN, BUT I DON'T RECALL
7 WHEN I ACTUALLY RECEIVED IT OR REVIEWED IT.
8 Q. YOU HAVE NOT TALKED EITHER TO DIRECTOR GOLDEN OR
9 | JANICE TURNER?
10 A. NO.
mt Q. ALL THIS IS IS A PIECE OF PAPER YOU HAVE LOOKED AT, IS
Ja 12 THAT CORRECT?
~ 413 A. AS ARE ALL ALL OF THE MEDICAL RECORDS, YES.
14 MR. COLEMAN: I DON'T KNOW IF MR. MAGINNIS IS
7 15 OBJECTING TO THE ADMISSION OF EXHIBIT FORTY.
: 16 MR. MEGINNIS: NOT AT ALL, SIR.
17 MR. COLEMAN: IT IS ONE OF THE COUNTRIES RECORDS
18 AND I THINK IT WILL COME IN ANY WAY, BuT--
13 BY MR. COLEMAN:
20 Q. NOW DOCTOR LEWIS, I BELIEVE WE HAD GONE UP TO THE THE
21 TIME OF THE PLEA AGREEMENT IN YOUR DESCRIPTION OF MR.
22 BUNDY'S BEHAVIOR. COULD YOU CONTINUE FROM THERE, PLEASE?
A. WELL, WE HAVE GONE BEYOND THAT, WE HAVE GONE TO DURING
n
wD
24 THE CHI OMEGA TRIAL ITSELF, AND AT WHICH TIME HE WAS HIS OWN
25 ATTORNEY, HE FELT COMPETENT, SORT OF ON TOP OF THE WORLD,
i
:
24
25
LEWIS - DIRECT ~ COLEMAN
227
AND CAPABLE OF DOING THE CROSS EXAMINATION AND WHATEVER HE
KIND OF TOOK THE ROLE OF DEFENDANT AND DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AND
WHATEVER. AND WOULD SAY HI TO THE JURY, HE WAS JUST
INAPPROPRIATE AND ACCORDING TO HIS LAWYERS NOT AFFECTIVE,
UNABLE TO FOCUS ON HIS, ON THE ISSUES OF THE TRIAL, AND MORE
CONCERNED WITH THESE OTHER PERIPHERAL KINDS OF THINGS.
ALSO AT THAT TIME THERE WAS AN EPISODE WHERE HE
-BROKE A LIGHT IN HIS-CELL-WHERE HE-REFUSED TO COME TO COURT,
AND I SAW A TAPE OF HIS TALKING WITH THE JUDGE, AND IN THIS
KIND OF VERY FLIPPENT FASHION, AND POINTING HIS FINGER AT
THE JUDGE AND WHAT I RECALL IS HIS SAYING “WOE” OR SOMETHING
OF THAT SORT, AND THE JUDGE KIND OF TOOK HIM UP UP ON THAT,
AND TRIED TO KIND OF PUT HIM DOWN, AND HE, AT LEAST CONTROL
HIM A BIT, AT WHICH POINT HE KIND OF POINTED AT HIS ATTORNEY
INSTEAD OF THE JUDGE, BUT HE WAS I WOULD SAY HE WAS FEELING
NO PAIN.
WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT APPARENTLY EVEN WHEN
HE WAS FOUND GUILTY, EVEN WHEN SENTENCED TO DEATH, THERE WAS
NO EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS CHASTENED BY THIS OR FRIGHTENED BY
IT OR DEPRESSED BY IT. THIS HIGH SEEMED TO CONTINUE, THIS
INABILITY TO QUITE APPRECIATE WHAT WAS GOING ON.
AGAIN THE LAKE CITY PROCEEDINGS, I CAN TELL YOU
—_——
WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO ME. IT LOOKS AS IF HE WAS STILL IN A
HIGH, ALTHOUGH HE WAS AT THIS POINT NOT BEING HIS OWN
ATTORNEY. 8UT HE APPARENTLY WAS NOT COOPORATING WITH HIS
ay
LEWLO — ViREUCL ~— COLEMAN
222
ATTORNEY EITHER, HE AGAIN COULDN'T SEEM TO APPRECIATE WHAT
—
THE ISSUES WERE, WHAT THE JEOPARDY WAS THAT HE WAS IN, BUT
HE WAS IN TO A BOOK DEAL, AND HE WAS, HE WAS ON THE PHONE
SOME TIME SEVERAL TIMES A DAY, WITH A WRITER NAME MICHAUD,
AND HE WAS NIGHTS I THINK HE MADE DOZENS OF TAPES, I
BELIEVE, SOME OF WHICH I HAVE HEARD, AT NIGHT SOME OF THEM
RAMBLING, SOME NOT TERRIBLY COHERENT, AND ALSO HE WAS VERY
FOCUSED ON A WISH TO GET MARRIED, AND THIS WAS SOMETHING
THAT HE KEPT PUSHING HIS LAWYERS TO HELP HIM WITH, AND
PUSHING OTHER PEOPLE TO HELP HIM WITH.
AND WHAT THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK IS VERY
INTERESTING, AND WHICH I HAVE ONLY TALKED WITH HIM ABOUT
BRIEFLY, IS THAT HE WAS TAKING ALCHOLOL AND DRUGS AT THE
TIME OF HIS, THIS TIME, CERTAINLY DURING A PORTION OF I7, HE
WAS APPARENTLY BEING BROUGHT ALCHOLOL BY SOMEBODY WHO WAS
VISITING HIM, I THINK IN HIS LUNCH, AND HE WAS ALSO BEING
GIVEN VALIUM, AND HE WOULD TAKE SOMEWHERE SETWEEN 4 OR 5 SIX
—_— ———_
VALIUMS A DAY, AND WHEN I ASKED HIM, YOU KNOW, WHY THIS WAS,
WHATEVER, APPARENTLY THIS HELPED HIM TO BE CALM AND BRING
HIM DOWN A BIT.
SO THAT HE CLEARLY MUST HAVE SENSED THAT HE WAS
Not IN GOOD CONTROL, AND SO WAS TAKING THESE DRUGS AND THIS
ALCOHOL TO TRY TO CONTROL HIMSELF. 7
Cc. NOW DOCTOR LEWIS, IN 1978, MAY OF 1979, JUNE OF 1979,
THERE WAS A. HEARING INTO MR. 8UNDY'S COMPETENCE. AND HE
hie
24
25
Lewis ~ DIREC) ~— COLEMAN
223
OBJECTED TO HAVING ANY PARTICIPATING. WAS THERE ANY
SIGNIFICANCE TO THAT TYPE OF BEHAVIOR?
A. WELL, MR. BUNDY DOESN'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG
WITH HIM. I THINK THAT I AM NOT SURE, BUT HE MAY HAVE
OBJECT TO MY BEING HERE TODAY. HE FEELS THAT HIS BEHAVIOR
HAS ALWAYS BEEN REASONABLE AND RATIONAL, AND THAT HE, HIS
INSIGHT INTO HIS OWN PSYCHIATRIC CONDITION IS NILL-
A
z
4
=
Rb Paeind
224
A. (CONTINUING) MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT IT WAS ALSO
DURING A HIGH THAT HE FELT THAT DR. TANAY WAS WRONG, THAT HE
WAS IN ANY WAY IMPAIRED, AND THAT HE WAS GOING TO RUN THE
SHOW.
SO IT WOULD BE CONSISTENT -- BY THE WAY, I SHOULD
MENTION, THAT WHEN PEOPLE WITH A BIPOLAR ILLNESS ARE EITHER
EXPERIENCING A HIGH OR EVEN A DEPRESSIONAL LOW, THEIR
JUDGMENT IS OFTEN SEVERELY IMPAIRED.
LIKELY TO NOT APPRECIATE WHAT WAS, WHAT THE DANGERS WERE,
AND TO BE MORE GLIB AND JUST EUPHORIC. DURING A LOW I HAVE
KNOWN INDIVIDUALS WHO REALLY WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE AT ALL IN
THEIR DEFENSE, THEY FELT HOPELESS, AND UNABLE TO FUNCTION.
SO DURING EITHER ONE OF THESE KINDS OF PHASES AN
INDIVIDUAL WOULD CERTAINLY NOT BE_ COMPETENT TO BE OF REALLY
GOOD ASSISTANCE TO HIMSELF. : :
Q. NOW, DR. LEWIS, THERE ARE REFERENCES IN THE RECORD OF
THIS CASE TO MR. BUNDY APPEARING TO HAVE MORE THAN ONE
PERSONALITY. DID YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE IN HIS BACKGROUND
THAT HE EXPERIENCED ALTERED STATES?
A. YES. THAT HE EXPERIENCED ALTERED STATES, YES. THE
NATURE OF THESE I DON'T CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND, I'M NOT SURE
WHAT THEY ARE. THERE IS, I CAN TELL YOU WHAT MY
DIFFERENTIAL DIAGNOSIS WOULD BE, BUT THERE ARE.SOME REPORTS
FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
:
va
|
225
THERE IS A REPORT FROM A FAMILY MEMBER, FROM
VIRGINIA BRISTOL, OF AN EPISODE, AND I THINK THIS WAS WHEN
HE WAS AT TEMPLE, WHEN HE HAD GONE BACK TO PHILADELPHIA,
WHERE SHE WAS ON A PLATFORM WITH HIM, I GUESS WAITING FOR A
TRAIN OR SOMETHING, AND SUDDENLY HE HAD CHANGED AND HE WAS,
SHE FELT SUDDENLY HE WAS A DIFFERENT KIND OF PERSON, THAT HE
FRIGHTENED HER. LET ME SEE IF I HAVE ANY NOTES. I MAY NOT.
Q. PAGE --
A. I DON'T KNOW IF I HAVE THE NOTES ON THAT, BUT MY
RECOLLECTION IS —- 7
Q. DR. LEWIS, APPARENTLY AT PAGE FIVE OF EXHIBIT THIRTY.
A. RIGHT. HERE, ACCORDING TO MRS. BRISTOL, BECAUSE I'VE-
ALSO SPOKEN WITH HER AND I WISH I REMEMBERED VERBATIM
EXACTLY WHAT SHE HAD SAID.
APPARENTLY AFTER A VERY PLEASANT EVENING AT A
CONCERT AS THEY WAITED IN A TRAIN STATION MR. BUNDY SUDDENLY
STARTED TO RAMBLE AND SHE SAID HE MADE NO SENSE AND HE
LOOKED CRAZY AND SHE FELT THAT HE WAS NOT IN TOUCH WITH
HER. AND SHE SAID I WAS AFRAID TO BE ALONE WITH HIM. SO
THIS WAS ONE OF THE EPISODES THAT OCCURRED.
Q. AND THIS WAS IN 1960 --
A. I THINK IT WAS '68, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.
THERE IS ALSO, I SPOKE WITH ONE OF THE
Alot
INVESTIGATORS ON THE CASE THERE, MR. AELAWAY, AND HE
DESCRIBED A COUPLE OF EPISODES. I THINK I HAVE NOTES ABOUT
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
ane BR
ROTTEN
iieeineae
24
25
THAT.
Alo/
OH, I FOUND IT. APPARENTLY MR. ALLAWAY SAID THAT
HE WAS IN MR. BUNDY'S CELL AND THIS HE SAID OCCURRED ABOUT
FIVE MONTHS AFTER HE WAS INCARCERATED IN TALLAHASSEE. AND
HE SAID THEY WERE TALKING, HE SAID NOT ABOUT ANYTHING
IMPORTANT, AND HE SAID QUOTE, HE BECAME WIERD ON ME. HE DID
A METAMORPHOSIS, A BIT OF A BODY AND FACIAL CHANGE, AND HE
FELT THERE WAS ALMOST AN ODOR OMITTED FROM HIM. HE SAID
ALMOST A COMPLETE CHANGE OF PERSONALITY WITH EXTREME
TENSION. AND HE SAID THAT WAS THE DAY I WAS AFRAID OF HIM.
AND HE SAID IT LASTED FOR ABOUT TWENTY MINUTES AND
SAID HE KNEW THAT HE WAS NOT APPROACHABLE BECAUSE HE SAID HE
WAS AFRAID THAT aE MIGHT HURT SOMEBODY AND HE JUST WAITED
aw
UNTIL IT STOPPED. AND HE DESCRIBED IT AS VERY SCARY.
Seiten etnaak—-—4
AND THEN HE ALSO DESCRIBED AN EPISODE THAT WAS
SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT WHEN, AND I THINK THAT WAS ON THE DAY
THAT KIMBERLY LEACH'S BODY HAD BEEN FOUND, AND AT THIS TIME
HE SAID THAT MR. BUNDY FLEW INTO A RAGE, THAT HE WAS PACING,
THAT HE WAS MUTTERING THINGS, THAT HE WAS HYPERVENTILATING,
AND APPARENTLY, I'M NOT SURE WHO GAVE HIM A BAG TO PUT OVER
HIS FACE.
(cars BY THE WAY DOES NOT SOUND AS aS PECULIAR s HIS
FIRST EPISODE WITH MR. ALLAWAY, THIS SORT OF SUDDEN a
METAMORPHOSIS AND THE EPISODE WITH HIS AUNT.
THERE IS ALSO ANOTHER INTERESTING THING, THAT AT
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
=
227
LEAST TO MY MIND PERHAPS SHED SOME INSIGHT INTO THIS. I
REVIEWED SORT OF A LOG OR A DIARY OR SOME PAPERS THAT MR.
BUNDY HAD WRITTEN AND I THINK THEY WERE AROUND THE TIME OF,
AROUND THE TIME THAT HE WAS IN COLLEGE, AND BEFORE THESE
EPISODES, AND THERE IS A DRAWING THAT HE DID AND THERE IS AN
INTERESTING KIND OF METAMORPHOSIS IN THE DRAWING AND ALSO IN
THE WRITING ON THE PAGE.
LET ME SEE, I THINK I HAVE I®.
DO YOU HAVE_A COPY OF THIS?_
- yp gmeree
Le
“MR. COLEMAN: YOUR HONOR, I'LL MARK THIS FA
PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT FORTY ONE.
Aw AND THIS, WHEN I ASKED MR. BUNDY ABOUT IT, FIRST OF
ALL, HE SAID DID I DO THIS? HE SAID THIS IS MY WRITING,
WHICH I THINK IS QUITE INTERESTING BECAUSE CERTAIN ‘
INDIVIDUALS WHEN THEY ARE IN AN ALTERED STATE OR WHATEVER
WRITE DIFFERENTLY FROM THE WAY THEY DO AT OTHER TIMES. AND
HERE IS A PICTURE WHERE, FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS A HEAD, A
PERSON OF SOME SORT, AND THEN THE HEAD ENLARGES AND THE HEAD
HAS TEETH LIKE DRACULA. AND THERE ALSO SEEMS TO BE A CHANGE
IN THE WRITING RIGHT WITHIN THE PAGE ITSELF. IT LOOKS AS IF
HE BECOMES LESS ORGANIZED OR WHATEVER ON THE PAGE.
‘AND BY THE WAY, WHEN I SHOWED THIS TO MR. BUNDY,
HIS FIRST REACTION WAS DID I DO IT THAT, HE DIDN'T REMEMBER
IT, AND THEN HE SAID WAS I ON DRUGS. .I DON'T KNOW, BUT THIS
WAS AT COLLEGE AND AS FAR AS WE KNOW HE WAS NOT INTO DRUGS.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
228
AND THIS SEEMS TO BE SORT OF A VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF
PERHAPS WHAT HAPPENS WITH HIM WHEN HE GOES INTO THESE
STATES.
NOW, WHAT CAUSES THEM WOULD REQUIRE A LOT MORE
TIME, A LOT MORE EVALUATION. IT COULD BE ANY NUMBER OF
POSSIBILITIES.
Q. BUT WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THESE TYPES OF
EPISODES? WHAT MAY BE THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THEM?
AL WELL, YOU WONDER, WHEN YOU SEE DRAMATIC -CHANGES—IN AN
INDIVIDUAL, WHERE THEY ARE Nor THEMSELVES, WHERE A PERSON
CANNOT REACH THEM, YOU WONDER ABOUT A POSSIBLE SEIZURE
DISORDER WHERE THERE IS A VERY BRIEF EPISODE WHERE A PERSON
IS JUST NOT WITH IT.
\YHOUGH THIS IS NOT A GRAND MAL SEIZURE, BUT
ANOTHER KIND OF SEIZURE, YOU WONDER ABOUT SOMETHING CALLED A
PSYCHOMOTOR SEIZURE. YOU WONDER ABOUT ABNORMAL ACTIVITY IN
THE BRAIN FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. YOU WONDER ABOUT THE
DIAGNOSIS OF A DISASSOCIATIVE STATE WHICH WOULD BE A KIND OF
STATE SIMILAR TO A FUGUE STATE OR A HYSTERICAL STATE WHERE
AGAIN THESE ARE TIMES WHEN SOMETIMES INDIVIDUALS GO OFF AND
DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THEY ARE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AND WIND
UP SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY, DON'T KNOW now THEY GOT.
THERE.
THE COURT: ARE YOU INTIMATING THAT MR. BUNDY MAY
BE EPILEPTIC?
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
229
1 A. WELL, I DON'T KNOW, YOUR HONOR, AND I'M JUST SAYING,
€ 2 IF I HAD MORE TIME TO DO A COMPLETE EVALUATION OF HIM AND TO
3 SEE HIM AT GREATER LENGTH AND TO DO SAY FORTY EIGHT HOUR
4 EEG'S AND WITH MAYBE ALCOHOL STIMULATED EEG'S, I CERTAINLY
5 WOULD ENTERTAIN THAT, BUT I AM IN NO WAY SAYING THAT HE IS.
6 I'M SAYING THAT THERE ARE THESE EPISODES AND THAT'S ONE OF
7 THE DIFFERENTIALS. ANOTHER WOULD BE A HYSTERICAL KIND OF
8 STATE. I'M TRYING TO THINK, BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAINLY
9 OTHER POSSIBILITIES. THERE ARE EPISODIC PSYCHOSES AND WE
10 DON'T KNOW THE CAUSES OF THOSE. MY GUESS IS THERE IS
il ABNORMAL BRAIN ACTIVITY, BUT WE DON'T, WE JUST DON'T KNOW
12 WHAT CAUSES THEM. THAT'S MY DIFFERENTIAL.
13 I DON'T KNOW IF ANOTHER PSYCHIATRIST WOULD HAVE
1
14 OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT IT, BUT CERTAINLY THERE IS SOMETHING
“
15 EPISODICALLY GOING ON THAT IS ABERRANT AND ABNORMAL, BUT I'M
16 JUST GIVING YOU A RANGE OF POSSIBILITIES.
17 Q. NOW, DOCTOR, LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT EXHIBIT THIRTY
7 18 B WHICH WAS THE NEUROMETRIC EVALUATION, AND. IN THE SUMMARY
19 THERE IS A REFERENCE --
“20) A.” I'M SORRY. WHICH IS THAT?
21) Q. THIS ONE. -
22/ A. YES. OKAY. . oe
23) Q. THE SUMMARY OF THAT EVALUATION, IS THAT SIGNIFICANT?
24) AL I DON'T KNOW. THIS SAYS THAT IT WAS A SLIGHTLY
25 ABNORMAL NEUROMETRIC WHICH MEANS COMPUTERIZED EEG AND DR.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
me
230
PRICHEP IS AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA AND SHE SAYS THE PROFILE
-- AND BY THE WAY, THIS IS READ WITH ABSOLUTELY NO KNOWLEDGE
OF ANYTHING ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL WHO UNDERWENT THE EEG.
Q. WAS THIS TAKEN AS PART OF THE STUDY THAT YOU DESCRIBED
EARLIER?
A. YES, THIS WAS PART OF EVALUATIONS.
MR. MEGINNIS: I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THIS
REFERENCE TO THIS. I THINK THAT THIS VIOLATES THE DROPE
RULE. THIS IS AN EXAMINATION, NEUROTIC EVALUATION, 9-15-86,
LONG AFTER ANY JUDGMENT OR ANYTHING ELSE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, I'LL SUSTAIN THE
OBJECTION. IF DR. PRICHEP WERE HERE, THAT WOULD BE
SOMETHING ELSE.
MR. COLEMAN: I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.
THE COURT: I SAID MAYBE IF DR. PRICHEP WERE
HERE. I'LL SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION TO THIS WITNESS EVALUATING
THE EEG.
MR. COLEMAN: THANK YoU. - ~
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. DR. LEWIS, LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT PETITIONER'S
EXHIBIT THIRTY EIGHT.
A. YES.
Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT, THOSE DOCUMENTS ARE?
A. YES. THESE ARE DRAW A PERSON, THIS IS PART OF THE
DRAW A PERSON TEST, AND IT WAS PERFORMED AT TWO DIFFERENT
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
231
TIMES.
THE FIRST ONE APPARENTLY WAS PERFORMED ON
12-18-75, AND THE SECOND ONE WAS PERFORMED AT THE TIME THAT
I GUESS WE EVALUATED MR. BUNDY. AND SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
1986 I GUESS.
AND WHAT IS INTERESTING HERE IS THE STRIKING
DIFFERENCE IN THESE TWO. AND THE REASON I FOUND THIS
PARTICULARLY INTERESTING IS -- BY THE WAY, I HAD NOT BEEN
AWARE INITIALLY OF THESE FIRST TWO DRAWINGS, BUT WHAT YOU
IN THE SECOND SET OF DRAWINGS IS KIND OF A EXPANSIVE,
SEE.
HEEDLESS, SOMEWHAT SLOPPY EXECUTION OF FIGURES. AND ONE OF
THEM IS SKIPPING ROPE. IT'S KIND OF SILLY, EUPHORIC AND, AS
I SAID, EXPANSIVE.
BUT THE ONES THAT WERE DONE AT A DIFFERENT TIME
ARE MORE CONTROLLED, ARE MORE PROPORTIONED, MORE CAREFULLY
DONE.
AND THE REASON I FIND THIS INTERESTING IS THAT
JUST AS I DO -- BY THE WAY, SOME OF THE DIFFERENCES IN MR.
BUNDY'S WRITINGS AT DIFFERENT TIMES IS THAT THEY ILLUSTRATE
TWO VERY DIFFERENT STATES OF MIND. WHEN THE VERY SAME
STIMULUS IS GIVEN, WHERE THE PERSON IS TOLD DRAW A PERSON,
DRAW SOMEONE OF THE OPPOSITE SEX, AND IT'S aust AS I SAID
ABOUT THE TRANSCRIPTS. IT'S INTERESTING WHEN YOU CAN HAVE
SOME OBJECTIVE HARD EVIDENCE OF DIFFERENCES IN FUNCTIONING.
Q. NOW, DR. LEWIS, GIVEN THE EVIDENCE THAT MIGHT SUGGEST
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
on
.
=
z
232
AN ALTERED STATE, WAS THERE ANYTHING IN MR. BUNDY'S HISTORY
THAT WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF SUCH
STATES?
A. WELL, IN TERMS OF ONE OF THE EXPLANATIONS -- ACTUALLY
TWO. HE DOES HAVE A HISTORY OF A HEAD INJURY, BUT WE DON'T
KNOW HOW SERIOUS THAT IS. BUT I THINK THE MOST SIGNIFICANT
PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT COULD ACCOUNT TO SOME EXTENT FOR -
ALTERED STATES WHERE A PERSON IS -- DOES NOT -- WHERE A
PERSON IS IN KIND OF A DIFFERENT STATE OR. BECOMES A. =
DIFFERENT KIND OF PERSON, BECAUSE I SHOULD SAY ANOTHER
POSSIBILITY IS KIND OF A MULTIPLE PERSONALITY. COMMON, VERY
COMMON ANTECEDENT OF THAT, IN FACT, ALMOST INVARIABLE
ANTECEDENTS OF THAT ARE EXTREME VIOLENCE, EXPOSURE TO
EXTRAORDINARY VIOLENCE. SOMETIMES SEXUAL, SOMETIMES ss
EXTRAORDINARY VIOLENCE WITHIN A FAMILY.
AND WHEN SOMETHING IS BEYOND THE INDIVIDUAL'S
ABILITY OR CHILD'S ABILITY TO COPE WITH IT OR DEAL WITH IT,
OFTEN THAT INDIVIDUAL DOES DEVELOP THESE KINDS OF ALTERED
STATES WHERE THEY BECOME SOMEBODY ELSE. SO THAT AT LEAST
THE BIT OF PAST HISTORY THAT WE COULD GET REGARDING EARLY
VIOLENCE WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH THIS. NOT DIAGNOSTIC, BUT
AT LEAST CONSISTENT WITH THAT,
Q. DR. LEWIS, I ASKED YOU EARLIER WHETHER YOU HAD FORMED
AN OPINION ABOUT WHETHER MR. BUNDY SUFFERED FROM A MENTAL
ILLNESS AT THE TIME OF THE TWO TRIALS IN 1979 AND 1980 AND I
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
f
i
f
:
24
25
LEWIS-DIRECT-COLEMAN
233
BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT YOU HAD?
A. YES.
Q. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOUR OPINION IS?
A. YES. JI BELIEVE THAT HE WAS SUFFERING FROM A BIPOLAR
MOOD DISORDER, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS A MANIC DEPRESSIVE
ILLNESS.
Q. AND CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO THE COURT WHAT THAT ILLNESS IS,
WHAT THE MANIFESTATIONS ARE, THE SYMPTOMS?
“AL MAY I REFER TO DSM-3 BECAUSE I, I ACTUALLY HAVE A _
XEROX OF THE CHAPTER ON EFFECTIVE DISORDERS THERE BECAUSE
THERE ARE CERTAIN CRITERIAS THAT ARE SPELLED our IN DSM-3
WITHOUT WHICH YOU CANNOT MAKE THAT DIAGNOSIS AND WITH WHICH
YOU DO MAKE THE DIAGNOSIS. LET ME JUST GO OVER THAT BECAUSE
IT'S TOO LONG TO GO THROUGH EVERYTHING.
FIRST OF ALL, FOR THERE TO BE A MANIC EPISODE,
THERE SHOULD BE ONE OR MORE DISTINCT PERIODS OF TIME WITH A
PREDOMINANTLY ELEVATED EXPANSIVE OR IRRITABLE MOOD, AND THAT
I THINK WE HAVE SEEN DEMONSTRATED.
AND WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THEY SAY IT MAY
INTERMINGLE WITH A DEPRESSIVE MOOD AND I THINK THERE ARE
TIMES WHERE IT LOOKS THAT WAY. AND THERE SHOULD BE A
DURATION OF AT LEAST ONE WEEK. WITH HIM IT WAS CONSIDERABLY
MORE THAN A WEEK.
THEN THERE SHOULD BE AT LEAST THREE OF THE
FOLLOWING SYMPTOMS, AND THEY LIST SEVEN, AND MAYBE MORE THAN
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
1 SEVEN -- NO, SEVEN, AND HE CERTAINLY HAS I GUESS ALL OF
¢ 2 THESE.
3 AN INCREASE IN ACTIVITY EITHER SOCIALLY OR AT WORK
4 OR SEXUALLY, AND THIS IS DEMONSTRATED BY THE NINETY
5 DEPOSITIONS, THE FILING OF BRIEFS AND MOTIONS AND WHAT HAVE
6 YOU, AND MORE TALKATIVE THAN USUAL.
7 NOW, THIS HE DOESN'T HAVE, HE DOESN'T HAVE
= 8 INFLATED IDEAS, HE DOES NOT HAVE THAT, BUT INFLATED SELF va an
~ 9 ESTEEM AND GRANDIOSITY, AND CERTAINLY THAT APPLIES TO MR.
10 BUNDY.
il DECREASED NEED FOR SLEEP. APPARENTLY HE COULD
12 STAY UP ALL NIGHT AND DOING THESE BRIEFS AND KEEP GOING.
13 | DISTRACTABILITY, ATTENTION DRAWN TO UNIMPORTANT
14 IRRELEVANT EXTERNAL STIMUT.T WHICH APPARENTLY HIS ATTORNEYS
15) HAVE DOCUMENTED. :
vw
S 16 AND THAT AN EXCESSIVE INVOLVEMENT IN ACTIVITIES
q 17 THAT HAVE A HIGH POTENTIAL FOR PAINFUL CONSEQUENCES. AND v
é
- 18 CERTAINLY HIS BEHAVIORS DURING HIS TRIALS WOULD CONSTITUTE
. i9 THAT
4 1 -
= 7 |
a 20 WELL, I THINK THAT THERE YOU CAN SEE THAT
q L . ;
21 CERTAINLY HE HAS EXPERIENCED MANIC STATES AS ILLUSTRATED BY
7 |
a 22 MANY OF THOSE CHARACTERISTICS. BUT HE HAS ALSO EXPERIENCED
23 DEPRESSIVE EPISODES. AND HERE THIS WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED
24 BY BEING DEPRESSED, SAD, HOPELESS, DOWN IN THE DUMPS,
25 IRRITABLE.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
on
AND THEN HE MUST HAVE AT LEAST FOUR OF THE
FOLLOWING SYMPTOMS FOR A PERIOD OF AT LEAST TWO WEEKS. AND
THIS HE'S HAD IS POOR APPETITE OR A SIGNIFICANT WEIGHT
LOSS. INSOMNIA OR HYPERSOMNIA, WHICH WE HAVE ALSO e
DOCUMENTED. PSYCHOMOTOR AGITATION AND RETARDATION,
DESCRIPTIONS OF HIS KIND OF, AT TIMES, NOT ALL THE TIME, BUT
PACING AND KIND OF BEING PREOCCUPIED AND BEING UNABLE TO SIT-
DOWN AND SIT STILL.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT LOSS OF INTEREST OR PLEASURE IN
USUAL ACTIVITIES. - - ~
AND COMPLAINTS OR EVIDENCE OF DIMINISHED ABILITY
TO THINK OR CONCENTRATE SUCH AS SLOW THINKING OR
INDECISIVENESS NOT ASSOCIATED, YOU KNOW, WITH BEING
INCOHERENT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. IN FACT, BY DEFINITION,
IT SHOULD NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH THAT.
SO ON THE BASIS OF THE CRITERIA OUTLINED IN DSM-3,
I BELIEVE THAT MR. BUNDY HAS SUFFERED FROM A BIPOLAR MOOD
DISORDER. -
I SHOULD ALSO ADD THAT HAVING THE FAMILY HISTORY
OF MOOD DISORDER IS ANOTHER PIECE OF DATA THAT CERTAINLY
ASSISTS IN MAKING A DIAGNOSIS. :
Q. DR. LEWIS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION WHETHER HIS MENTAL
ILLNESS SUBSTANTIALLY IMPAIRED THE ABILITY EITHER TO
REPRESENT HIMSELF OR TO ASSIST HIS ATTORNEYS TO REPRESENT
HIM IN THE TWO TRIALS IN FLORIDA?
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
236
MR. MEGINNIS: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. WE ARE
LIMITED ONLY TO ONE TRIAL, THAT IS LAKE CITY, AND HE DID NOT
ACT AS HIS OWN COUNSEL.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
BY MR. COLEMAN:
Q. DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION, DR. LEWIS, AS TO WHETHER HIS
MENTAL ILLNESS SUBSTANTIALLY IMPAIRED HIS ABILITY TO ASSIST
HIS ATTORNEYS IN THE LAKE CITY TRIAL?
A. YES, I BELIEVE THAT IT DID. AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
PEEL EMVe Teas tse
ACCORDING TO HIS ATTORNEYS, HE WAS UNABLE TO Focus ON THE
ISSUES THAT THEY WERE PRESENTING, HE WAS UNABLE TO
COMPREHEND THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS BEFORE HIM... HE DIDN'T... —
APPRECIATE, I DON'T THINK HE APPRECIATED THE NATURE OF THE
CHARGES OR EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM.
"AND IN ADDITION, AT THIS TIME HE WAS, HE WAS
INVOLVED IN THESE KIND OF PERIPHERAL BUT VERY ALL CONSUMING
ACTIVITIES LIKE WRITING A BOOK, MAKING TAPE AFTER TAPE AFTER
TAPE, DICTATING THESE TAPES, SOME OF WHICH BY THE WAY ARE
RAMBLING AND ARE NOT LOGICAL. AND THEN IT VARIED INTO
GETTING MARRIED.
THE ONLY PIECE I'VE SEEN OF THAT TRIAL, BY THE
WAY, WAS_HIS ATTEMPT TO GET MARRIED AND THE KIND OF
INAPPROPRIATE AFFECT THAT HE HAD THERE.
SO GIVEN THIS STATE THAT HE WAS IN, I BELIEVE THAT
HE WAS NOT COMPETENT TO ASSIST HIS ATTORNEYS.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
237
: 1 MR. MEGINNIS: MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT, I THINK
SHE IS REFERRING TO THE TAPES WHICH HAVE ALREADY BEEN
3 PRESENTED WITH THE DEPOSITION OF DR. MICHAUD. IF THAT'S THE
4 CASE, I'D LIKE TO MOVE THEM IN AS DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT ONE.
7 5 MR. COLEMAN: THAT'S FINE, YOUR HONOR, ALTHOUGH I
6 MUST INDICATE TO THE COURT THAT WE FIRST BECAME AWARE OF
7 THOSE TAPES ON SATURDAY AT THE DEPOSITION FOR MR. MICHAUD
8 AND AT THAT TIME I ASKED MR. YORK IF HE WOULD MAKE COPIES
9 AVAILABLE TO ME. WE FIRST OBTAINED COPIES OF THE TAPES LAST
E 10 NIGHT AROUND NINE THIRTY OR TEN O'CLOCK, SO I HAVE NOT -
F 11 ACTUALLY AND I DON'T THINK DR. LEWIS HAS -—-
2 |
12 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE WON'T ADMIT THEM NOW,
13 BUT THEY'LL BE ADMITTED BEFORE THE HEARING IS OVER, BUT
14 WE'LL GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO THROUGH THEM.
15 MR. COLEMAN: THAT'S FINE.
16 WELL, YOUR HONOR, OUR AGREEMENT WAS THAT HE
17 AUTHENTICATED THE TAPES AND ON THE BASIS OF THAT, AND ALSO
18 ESTABLISHED A CHAIN OF CUSTODY, AND ON THE BASIS OF THAT, I
19 HAD NO OBJECTION TO THE TAPES COMING IN. BUT IN TERMS OF
20 THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH THEY CAN BE ADMITTED, I CAN'T EXPRESS
21 AN OPINION ON THAT BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T REVIEWED IT. THEY
22 CERTAINLY CAN COME IN, WHETHER OR NOT --
23 THE COURT: ARE YOU TALKING “ABOUT, WHAT IS THERE,
24 TEN OF THEM, AREN'T THERE?
25 MR. MEGINNIS: YES. THE POINT OF THE MATTER
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
238
1j| THOUGH IS THAT SHE HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED ABOUT THEM, SHE
C 2 LISTENED TO THEM ACCORDING TO HER TESTIMONY JUST AGAIN LAST
3 NIGHT.
4 A. I LISTENED TO PARTS.
: 5 MR. MEGINNIS: MAY THEY BE ADMITTED?
- 6 THE COURT: YES.
7 MR. MEGINNIS: THANK YOU, SIR.
8 BY MR. COLEMAN:
9 Q. DR. LEWIS, THERE IS A REFERENCE IN THE RECORD OF THIS
10 CASE TO AN OPINION BY DR. TANAY AT THE TIME OF MR. BUNDY'S
11 PLEA AGREEMENT THAT IF HE ACCEPTED THE PLEA AGREEMENT IT -
12 WOULD INDICATE. THAT HE WAS COMPETENT, BUT IF HE REJECTED IT,
c 13; IT WOULD INDICATE THAT HE WAS INCOMPETENT. ARE YOU FAMILIAR
14| WITH THAT OPINION?
: 15) A. YES, I AM.
16]; Q. AND DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT OPINION?
; 17| A. NO, I DON'T. .
1s| a. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ABOUT MR. BUNDY'S ABILITY TO
| 19| ACCEPT THE PLEA AT THAT TIME? -
20) A. I DON'T EVEN THINK MR. BUNDY WAS COMPETENT TO ACCEPT
21 OR REJECT A PLEA AT THAT T . I THINK THAT HE WAS HIGH AS
22| -A KITE, HE WAS GRANDIOSE, HIS JUDGMENT WAS IMPAIRED. ~AND
a ooo —_————
23 WHETHER AT THE MOMENT HE HAD DECIDED YES OR WHETHER AT THE
24 MOMENT HE HAD DECIDED NO, HE WAS STILL EXPERIENCING A MANIC
25 PSYCHOTIC EPISODE AND HE WOULD NOT HAVE, I DON'T CARE WHAT
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
/
24
25
LOWLS~DIRBCIU-COLEMAN
HE ANSWERED.
MR. COLEMAN; YOUR HONOR, I HAVE NO FURTHER
QUESTIONS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE'LL STAND IN RECESS FOR
LUNCH THEN UNTIL ONE O'CLOCK.
(LUNCH RECESS.)
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
=
=
Lead
Geo
bs
:
REGO
{
24
25
240
APTERNOON SESSION
MR. MEGINNIS: MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEGINNIS:
Q. DOCTOR, MY NAME IS WALTER MEGINNIS AND I REPRESENT THE
RESPONDENT IN THIS CASE AND I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLORE SOME OF
YOUR TESTIMONY THIS MORNING ON CROSS EXAMINATION.
FIRST AREA IN WHICH YOU BECAME INVOLVED WAS YOUR
CURRICULUM VITAE AND YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD PUBLISHED
MANY ARTICLES, AND THE INDICATIONS TO ME AS I REVIEW THIS IS
THAT BASICALLY THE MAJORITY OF YOUR ARTICLES PERTAIN TO
JUVENILES, DO THEY NOT?
A. YES. THE MAJORITY OF OUR WORK DOES PERTAIN TO_
ADOLESCENTS BECAUSE CHILDHOOD AND ADOLESCENCE ARE SUCH AN
IMPORTANT TIME IN A PERSON'S, YOU KNOW, FORMATIVE LIFE.
HOWEVER, OUR MORE RECENT WORK HAS FOCUSED MORE ON ADULTS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT. NOW, WITH
RESPECT TO YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU'VE_-GIVEN A GREAT DEAL WITH
RESPECT TO JUVENILES, PARTICULARLY IN NEW HAVEN,
CONNECTICUT, ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A. YES.
Q. AND ALSO YOU'VE DONE SOME IN NEW YORK, HAVEN'T YOU?
A. I'VE TESTIFIED ON OCCASION IN NEW YORK; YES. AND —~
I'VE --
Q. EXCUSE ME. I'M SORRY. I DON'T MEAN TO INTERRUPT
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
RT
:
:
2
eee
EEN he FRO LEE IN IN
241
you.
A. AND I THINK THE MOST RECENT EVALUATION I DID WAS FOR
ONE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS IN NEW YORK CITY.
Q. WHAT WAS THAT EVALUATION ABOUT?
A. IT CONCERNED A MAN WHO HAD SHOT UP HIS, HAD KILLED
MANY MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY, AND I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH
BOROUGH IT WAS IN, BUT THAT WAS AN EVALUATION PERFORMED FOR
THE PROSECUTION.
Q. BUT YOU DID-NOT GIVE ANY TESTIMONY FOR THE PROSECUTION
IN THAT CASE, DID YOU?
A. THE PROSECUTION AND DEFENSE APPARENTLY AGREED TO A
PLEA IN THAT CASE. :
Q. NOW, I THINK THAT THIS MORNING YOU INDICATED THAT YOU
HAD TESTIFIED ON BOTH SIDES. BUT ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOUR
TESTIMONY PRIMARILY WITH RESPECT TO MALE ADULTS HAS BEEN FOR
THE DEFENSE?
A. YES, IT HAS.
Q. AS A MATTER OF FACT, DOCTOR, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU'VE
NEVER BEEN CALLED UPON TO TESTIFY FOR THE PROSECUTION IN A
DEATH CASE?
A. IN A DEATH CASE?
"Q. YES. : HS oe
A. THAT'S CORRECT. THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. SO WHEN YOU SAY THAT OR YOU INDICATE IN
YOUR CURRICULUM VITAE THAT YOU'VE BEEN ENGAGED BY THE
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
Roe
24
25
242
DEFENSE, THE COURT, AND THE STATE AGENCIES, WHAT YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT REALLY I
SOME TESTIMONY?
A. MY CURRICULUM VI
TESTIFYING IN ANYTHING
Q. ALL RIGHT. I'M
THEN. BUT LET'S, BASE
YOU INDICATED THAT YOU
DID TESTIFY TO THAT TH
AL THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. AND PRIMARILY WH!
THE STATE, IT'S BEEN I
RESPECT TO DISPOSITIONS OF CHILDREN?
S EVALUATION IN JUVENILE MATTERS AND
TAE DOES NOT REFER AT ALL TO
AT ALL.
SORRY. I'M GETTING AHEAD OF MYSELF
D ON YOUR TESTIMONY THIS MORNING, WHEN
HAD TESTIFIED FOR THE STATE -- YOU
IS MORNING, DID YOU NOT?
EN YOU SAY THAT YOU'VE TESTIFIED FOR
\ JUVENILE MATTERS, HAS IT NOT; WITH ~ 7
A. NO, NOT OF CHILDREN, OF ADOLESCENTS.
Q. ADOLESCENTS, SORRY.
|
A. YES. AND PARTICULARLY MY WORK HAS FOCUSED ON
EXTRAORDINARILY VIOLEN
PRIMARILY IN CONNECTIC
Q. IN CONNECTICUT.
I WANT TO GO
POSITIONS WITH BELLEVU.
YORK, IS IT NOT?
A. If'S THE OLDEST HOSPITAL, I BELIEVE, IN THE UNITED
STATES. :
Q. IT IS IN NEW YORK, Ig IT NOT?
ADOLESCENTS AND IT HAS BEEN
UT.
ALL RIGHT.
BACK AGAIN JUST TO REVIEW YOUR
ER. BELLEVUE IS A HOSPITAL IN NEW
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
oo
*
id dada a
ve
:
f
A. YES, IT IS.
Q. NOW, WHEN DID YOU FIRST BECOME AFFILIATED WITH THEM?
A. IN 1979.
Q. WHAT WAS YOUR POSITION WHEN YOU WENT WITH THEM?
A. WELL, MY POSITION WAS THROUGH NEW YORK UNIVERSITY
SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND WHERE I WAS INITIALLY A RESEARCH
PROFESSOR WHICH IS A PROFESSORSHIP WHICH IS NOT YET ON A -
TENURED TRACK, AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY AFTER BEING THERE I
BELIEVE APPROXIMATELY THREE YEARS I BECAME A TENURED
PROFESSOR. - 7
Q. SO YOU BECAME A TENURED PROFESSOR THEN IN 1982?
A. I THINK SO. i'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CURRICULUM VITAE.
Q. NOW, PRIOR TO THAT TIME, DID YOU HAVE ANY POSITION ON
THE STAFF, ANY RECOGNIZED POSITION?
A. I'VE BEEN AN ASSOCIATE ATTENDING AT BELLEVUE HOSPITAL
FOR, SINCE JOINING THE NYU FACULTY.
Q. DID YOU GIVE ANY TESTIMONY IN COURT, SAY DURING THE
PERIOD OF 1979 AND 1982? -
A. I THINK SO. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT I DID.
Q. WHAT COURTS?
A. I'm SORRY, I CAN'T REMEMBER. I CAN RECALL ONCE I
THINK TESTIFYING IN MANHATTAN AND ONCE I THINK IT WAS IN THE
BRONX, BUT I DON'T RECALL.- ~~ - ~~ -
Q. EXCUSE ME. I'M SORRY. I APOLOGIZE. ANY TIME THAT I
FIND THAT I'M INTERRUPTING YOU, I WILL BACK OFF AND I DON'T
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
von
24
25
WANT TO GET TOO FAST FOR YOU.
A. OKAY.
Q. NOW, IN YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU SAID BRONX?
A. I THINK SO. I DON'T REMEMBER THE CASES THAT
DISTINCTLY, BUT IT WAS IN ONE OF THE BOROUGHS OTHER THAN
MANHATTAN.
Q. DID YOU BY CHANCE -- STRIKE THAT.
WAS THIS TESTIMONY WITH REFERENCE TO A PATIENT OF
BELLEVUE?
A. ‘MY RECOLLECTION _ mw THE CASES THAT I RECALL, I
BELIEVE THAT BOTH WERE IN REFERENCE TO CASES AT BELLEVUE.
Q.. DID YOU TAKE HOSPITAL RECORDS WITH YOU WHEN YOU
TESTIFIED?
A. I MUST TELL YOU THAT I DON'T RECALL THESE CASES THAT
CLEARLY SO THAT I WOULD ONLY HAVE TO BE RECONSTRUCTING WHAT
I PROBABLY DID. 7
Q. IF YOU WOULD BEAR WITH ME A MOMENT, I'D LIKE FOR YOU
TO TRY TO RECONSTRUCT. ISN'T THERE A POLICY IN BELLEVUE
THAT MEMBERS OF THE STAFF WHEN THEY TESTIFY IN COURT ARE NOT
TO USE HOSPITAL RECORDS NOR ARE THEY WILLING TO TESTIFY IN
COURT WITH RESPECT TO PATIENTS THAT ARE IN THAT HOSPITAL?
A. - NO, THERE IS NOT SUCH A POLICY. ACTUALLY, BELLEVUE IS
A HOSPITAL, ONE OF THE FEW HOSPITALS THAT HAS AN ADULT
PRISON, A FORENSIC SERVICE THERE, AND YOU CLEARLY MUST HAVE
ACCESS TO ALL HOSPITAL RECORDS. AND INDEED, MUCH OF OUR
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
=
3
pee
Ab ta
24
25
245
WORK IN THE PAST, I'D SAY SINCE 1981, HAS FOCUSED ON THE
ADULT FORENSIC SERVICE AT BELLEVUE WHERE WE MADE USE OF ALL
OF THE RECORDS AVAILABLE.
Q. AND YOU -- STRIKE THAT.
WHEN DID YOU BEGIN YOUR WORK WITH RESPECT TO
ADULTS?
A. OH, LET'S SEE.
Q. IT'S ABOUT '79 OR '80, WASN'T IT?
A. OH, NO, NO, NO. I WAS TESTIFYING, WELL, NOT
TESTIFYING, BUT I HAD SEEN ADULT CASES, I'M TRYING TO RECALL
WHEN THE EARLIEST WOULD HAVE BEEN IN. AROUND 1972 OR 1973.
Q. BUT INSOFAR AS DOING YOUR RESEARCH, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT
YOU STARTED FOCUSING ON THE ADULT ASPECT OF IT IN '79 OR
80?
A. APPROXIMATELY THEN, I THINK, YES. ALTHOUGH I SHOULD
MENTION THAT --
Q. IF YOU'LL JUST ANSWER --
A. PARDON ME?
Q. IF YOU'LL JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION, THAT'S ALL I WANT.
A. OKAY. ANY CASE THAT I EVALUATE, AND I DO THE SAME
EVALUATION FOR PROSECUTION, DEFENSE, STATE, WHATEVER, IF YOU
DO A CAREFUL ASSESSMENT AND YOU TAKE VERY GOOD NOTES, ANY
CASE IS POTENTIALLY USED FOR RESEARCH AT A LATER DATE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, DOCTOR, YOU'VE ALREADY TESTIFIED THAT
YOU'VE NEVER TESTIFIED FOR THE STATE OR THE PROSECUTION IN A
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
Ai ate
oN
Vai cad
Rg et
25
“A. NO, NOT HYPOCRITIC. IT'S HIPPOCRATIC. HYPOCRITIC HAS
24
246
DEATH CASE. ISN'T If A FACT THAT YOU HAVE PUBLICLY STATED
YOUR OPPOSITION TO EXECUTIONS IN A LETTER TO THE NEW YORK
TIMES, WHICH IS LISTED IN YOUR CURRICULUM VITAE AS A LETTER
TO THE EDITOR, A HEALER WHO JOINED THE EXECUTION TEAM JUNE
10, 1979?
A. NO. THAT WAS NOT A STATEMENT FOCUSED ON PRO OR CON
EXECUTIONS. THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE ROLE OF A PHYSICIAN IN
ASSISTING AT EXECUTIONS AND THE FOCUS OF THAT WAS THAT I
HAVE STATED MY OPPOSITION TO A PHYSICIANS EXAMINING AN -
INDIVIDUAL IN AN EXECUTION AND SAYING THAT THE PERSON IS NOT
DEAD AND SHOULD BE ELECTROCUTED AGAIN. SO iT was IN
OPPOSITION TO THE ROLE OF A PHYSICIAN IN FACILITATING A
DEATH AS OPPOSED TO SAVING A LIFE, I BELIEVE, IF THAT'S THE
LETTER YOU'RE REFERRING TO. IT HAD TO DO WITH JOHN
SPINKELINK, AS I RECALL.
Q. THAT'S RIGHT. AND IN THAT LETTER DIDN'T YOU TELL THE
NEW YORK TIMES AND ALL THE WORLD THAT THE DOCTOR SHOULD
EXAMINE HIS HYPOCRITIC (SIC) OATH? IS THAT. THE WAY YOU
PRONOUNCE?
A VERY DIFFERENT MEANING.
Q. ALL RIGHT, FINE. I'LL TAKE IT YOUR WAY. HIPPOCRATIC
OATH. YOU'VE GOT TO EXAMINE THAT AND YOUR PROFESSION AND
WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE GOING TO PARTICIPATE, ISN'T THAT
CORRECT?
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
—
24
25
247
A. I HAVEN'T READ IT IN AWHILE, BUT THE POINT IS THAT THE
HIPPOCRATIC OATH SAYS ABOVE ALL, DO NO HARM.
Q. NOW, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THIS PARTICULAR LETTER WAS
BROUGHT OUT ON CROSS EXAMINATION IN THE ELLRICH (PH) CASE?
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
Q. AND THAT PROBABLY WAS THE FIRST CASE IN WHICH YOU
TESTIFIED WITH RESPECT TO SOMEONE FACING THE DEALT PENALTY,
ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A. NO, I DON'T THINK THAT'S SO, BUT IT MIGHT BE THE FIRST
CASE IN FLORIDA.
Q. ALL RIGHT. WHERE ELSE HAVE YOU TESTIFIED?
A. TENNESSEE. -
Q. WHAT DID YOU TESTIFY ABOUT UP IN TENNESSEE?
A. WELL, AGAIN, I'M TRYING TO THINK IF I'M CONFUSING
TENNESSEE.
Q. THAT WAS THE HOWRIES' (PH) CASE, WASN'T IT?
A. RIGHT. IN THE HOWRIES' CASE ACTUALLY I WAS ASKED TO
EVALUATE MR. HOWRIES BY, ACTUALLY IT-WAS NOT BY HIS
ATTORNEYS BUT BY ANOTHER GROUP OF ATTORNEYS TO DETERMINE
WHETHER HE WAS COMPETENT TO WAIVE HIS RIGHT TO AN APPEAL AND
WHETHER HE WAS COMPETENT TO CHOOSE TO BE EXECUTED. AND IN
THE COURSE OF THAT EVALUATION, IT TURNED OUT THAT MR, ~— ~
HOWRIES HAD BEEN CONFINED IN A PARTICULARLY, HOW CAN I SAY
IT, INHUMANE SETTING, AND THE TESTIMONY HAD TO DO WITH THE
FACT THAT IT HAD CREATED A DEPRESSIVE CONDITION.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
o~
LEWIS-CROSS-MEGINNIS
*|
248
AND BY THE WAY, IN THE COURSE OF THE EVALUATION,
MR. HOWRIES NO LONGER WISHED TO BE EXECUTED, SO THAT POINT
WAS MOOT. BUT I DID TESTIFY TO THE CONDITIONS IN THAT
INSTITUTION AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THE JUDGE SUBSEQUENTLY
ORDERED THAT THEY BE IMPROVED.
Q. ALL RIGHT. I'LL GET BACK TO THAT TRIAL IN A MOMENT. _
I JUST WANTED TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS TO YOUR TESTIMONY.
BUT I'LL HAVE MORE QUESTIONS LATER ON.
NOW, I WANT TO 60 BACK TO THIS LETTER OF JUNE to, :
1979, IN YOUR CURRICULUM VITAE WHERE YOU INDICATED THAT WITH
RESPECT TO A HEALER. YOU ALSO IN THAT SAME CURRICULUM VITAE
LISTED AN ARTICLE THAT YOU HAD WRITTEN FOR THE RADCLIFFE
REUNION, TWENTIETH REUNION?
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q. AND IS IT NOT TRUE THAT YOU LISTED THIS UNDER --
THE COURT: MR. MEGINNIS.
MR. COLEMAN: YOUR HONOR, I REQUEST THAT MR.
MEGINNIS PROVIDE DR. LEWIS WITH A COPY OF THE LETTER. HE
SEEMS TO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF QUESTIONS ABOUT IT AND PERHAPS
IT WOULD FACILITATE THE EXAMINATION.
THE COURT: I'M SURE HE WILL BE GLAD TO DO SO.
MR. COLEMAN: AND-IF-HE HAS AN EXTRA COPY, I. THINK
I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SEE IT.
MR. MEGINNIS: MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT, I'LL BE
VERY HAPPY TO, SINCE WE HAVE ALREADY COVERED IT, SHOW DR.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
a
4
a
x
LEWIS-CROSS-MEGINNI,
'
249
+B
LEWIS THE CROSS EXAMINATION IN THE ELLRICH CASE WHEREIN I
WAS READ TO HER AND SHE SAID YES, I WROTE IT.
MR. COLEMAN: RIGHT. IF MR. MEGINNIS DOESN'T HAVE
THE LETTER, I THINK WE SHOULD MOVE ON, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WELL, HE CAN QUESTION ABOUT ANYTHING
THAT'S CONTAINED IN THERE, IF YOU WISH TO SHOW HER SO SHE
CAN RECOLLECT.
MR. MEGINNIS: YES. I WAS GOING UP THERE, IF I
MAY HAVE PERMISSION.
A. YES. WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION?
BY MR. MEGINNIS: _
Q. THAT IS THE LETTER?
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW. IT'S A TRANSCRIPT AND I HAVEN'T
SEEN THE LETTER IN YEARS, BUT I'M ASSUMING IT'S CORRECT.
Q. YOU DO SAY THERE IN THAT TRANSCRIPT, YES, THAT IS THE
LETTER, AND I WROTE IT, OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT, DO YOU NOT?
A. OF COURSE, I JUST TOLD YOU THAT I DID, YES. I SAID IT
THERE AND I SAY IT NOW.
MR. MEGINNIS: WILL THAT SUFFICE FOR YOU, SIR?
MR. COLEMAN: YES, SIR. ~
_A. _ I THINK_HE WANTS A COPY TO SEE WHAT IT IS. _ _
BY MR. MEGINNIS:
Q. NOW, DR. LEWIS, IN YOUR CURRICULUM VITAE, IS IT NoT
CORRECT THAT THIS IS LISTED AS A SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATION?
A. ACTUALLY IT SHOULD BE JUST LISTED AS PUBLICATIONS
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
Le
B
&
ial
Ae
:
250
BECAUSE IT INCLUDES ANY PUBLICATIONS THAT I HAVE MADE, AND
SINCE I, MY RECOLLECTION IS OUT OF THE APPROXIMATELY A
HUNDRED PUBLICATIONS, NINETY SEVEN OF THEM I BELIEVE ARE
SCIENTIFIC. RATHER THAN HAVE A SEPARATE CATEGORY FOR OTHER
PUBLICATIONS, THIS IS ALSO A WAY FOR ME TO KEEP TRACK OF
WHAT I'VE DONE. IT'S SIMPLY LISTED UNDER THERE. BUT IT
CERTAINLY COULD BE LISTED UNDER JUST PUBLICATIONS AND WOULD
BE MORE ACCURATE.
ONE OF THE REASONS, BY THE WAY, THAT I MIGHT PUT_
If UNDER SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATIONS IS SIMPLY IT DOES PERTAIN
TO THE MEDICAL PROFESSION SO THAT IT, UNDER THAT RATIONALE,
ONE MIGHT LIST IT THERE, BUT THERE ARE THREE OR FOUR™
PUBLICATIONS THAT ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC OUT OF THE ABOUT A
HUNDRED PUBLICATIONS.
Q. AND HOW ABOUT THE INTRODUCTION TO THE TWENTIETH
REUNION OF RADCLIFFE?
A. WELL --
Q. Is THAT A SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATION?
A. NO. THAT'S ONE OF THE THREE. IT'S ONE THAT I'M MOST
PROUD OF BECAUSE IT'S A HONOR TO BE ASKED TO DO THE
INTRODUCTION TO A TWENTIETH REUNION, AND ACTUALLY IT'S ONE
OF MY PUBLICATIONS THAT I'M RATHER FOND OF SO THAT I'M
DELIGHTED TO LIST IT. BUT IT CERTAINLY IN THE FUTURE WE
COULD LIST THAT AND THE LETTER TO THE EDITOR AND MAYBE ONE
OR TWO OTHER PUBLICATIONS AS OTHER PUBLICATIONS.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
i
Q. THANK YOU.
YOU HAVE ALSO PUBLISHED IN RECENT TIMES AND YOU
ELUDED TO IT THIS MORNING, AN ARTICLE ABOUT FIFTEEN DEATH
ROW INMATES, AND THAT TOO IS LISTED ON YOUR CURRICULUM
VITAE. HAVE YOU UPDATED THAT?
A. PARDON ME?
Q. HAVE YOU UPDATED THAT?
A. UPDATED THAT?
Q. YES. - -
A. HOW DO YOU MEAN UPDATED THAT? ~
Q. WELL, HAVE THERE BEEN ANY REVISIONS TO IT?
A. THE ONE THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN THE AMERICAN JOURNAL OF
PSYCHIATRY, JULY, '86? -
Q. RIGHT.
A. NO. I'VE SEEN OTHER INMATES, BUT THERE IS NO
PARTICULAR REASON TO UPDATE IT.
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH RESPECT TO THOSE INMATES, WERE
THEY ALL ADULTS?
A. YES.
Q. I THINK YOU TESTIFIED THIS MORNING THAT THE PETITIONER
IN THIS CASE WAS ONE OF THOSE?
A. NO, I DON'T, I DID NOT TESTIFY TO THAT.
Q. OH, YOU DID NOT? ~ TN 7 ~ ~~
A. NO. WE WERE DOING WHAT I HOPE WERE COMPREHENSIVE
ASSESSMENTS OF JUVENILES SENTENCED TO DEATH IN SEVERAL
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
24
25
252
DIFFERENT STATES IN THE UNITED STATES, AND SINCE WE WERE IN
THE STATE OF FLORIDA, OUR TEAM WAS ASKED BY HIS ATTORNEYS
WHETHER WE WOULD DO THE SAME KIND OF EVALUATION OF HIM. BUT
HE WAS NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.
Q. HE WAS NOT ONE OF THE FIFTEEN INMATES ON DEATH ROW?
A. I DON'T THINK THAT HE WAS.
Q. THAT'S COVERED BY THAT ARTICLE?
A. I DON'T BELIEVE SO. ZI COULD BE MISTAKEN, BUT I THINK
-- I DON'T THINK SO. NO. HE WAS NOT. NO.
Q. WHEN DID YOU FIRST MEET THEODORE BUNDY?
A. I FIRST MET HIM WHEN WE WERE DOING THAT SET OF
EVALUATIONS OF JUVENILES. -I'D HAVE TO LOOK -~ MAY I LOOK AT
MY --
Q. I WISH YOU WOULD BFCAUSE T'D LIKE TO KNOW WHEN YOU
FIRST MET HIM.
A. I BELIEVE IT'S STATED IN ONE OF THE, ONE OF MY
REPORTS, THE DATES THAT 1 SAW HIM.
Q. WOULD THAT BE --
A. HERE. I THINK THIS IS A NOVEMBER 11 LETTER TO POLLY
NELSON, 9-8-86, 9-9-86. . —
NO, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE THAT WAS
~ PUBLISHED IN 7-86, WAS IT NOT, THAT PUBLICATION ON THE DEATH
ROW INMATES, SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BE
ONE OF THE PEOPLE, I BELIEVE. SO I FIRST SAW HIM ON 9-8-86.
Q. IN ORDER THAT WE MAY UNDERSTAND AND IDENTIFY THE SAME
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
3
a
ht eo
I
t
\
24
25
253 :
THING, I WOULD LIKE, IF I MAY APPROACH THE WITNESS, TO SHOW
HER THE ARTICLE THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
, IS THAT THE ARTICLE?
A. THAT'S THE ARTICLE. I THINK THE DATE IS WRONG HERE.
IT SAYS 10-14-87. I THINK THAT IT'S SEVEN SOMETHING '87.
Q. LET'S SEE.
IN THE FOOTNOTE, PLEASE?
A. IT SAYS IT'S ACCEPTED FEBRUARY '86 AND IT'S -- YEAH,
SO THERE IS NO WAY THAT HE WAS ONE OF THESE PEOPLE.
Q. THAT WAS NOT PUBLISHED IN 1976 AS YOU TESTIFIED A
MOMENT AGO?
A. NO, NO. I SAID 1986. I DID NOT SAY 1976. I HOPE I . j
DID. !
Q. THANK YOU.
THEN I TAKE IT THAT YOUR FIRST MEETING WITH
THEODORE BUNDY IS THE DATE YOU'VE JUST GIVEN ME IN
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT TWENTY NINE IN THE LETTER TO POLLY J.
NELSON, AND IT'S 9-8-86, 9-9-86 -—
A. RIGHT. THAT'S TWO MONTHS AFTER THE PUBLICATION OF
THAT.
Q. NOW. THIS MORNING, DOCTOR, THIS DIDN'T GET INTRODUCED
INTO EVIDENCE, BUT YOU-WERE SHOWN IT. I WANT TO ASK YOU
ABOUT IT. THESE ARE DRAWINGS AND THEY ARE MARKED AS TO THE
DATE THEY WERE DONE, AND I THINK YOU TESTIFIED TO THAT, SO I
WANT TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
z
a
-
:
a
4
24
25
254
A. I TESTIFIED TO THE DATE THAT'S MARKED HERE, YES.
THESE ARE, THE FIRST ARE DRAWINGS THAT SOME OTHER
PSYCHOLOGIST HAD MR. BUNDY DO, AND IT SAYS 12-18-75. THE
SECOND WERE DONE ON EITHER 9-9, OR 9-10, ONE OF THESE DAYS,
WHICH ARE ABOUT WHAT, ELEVEN YEARS LATER OR SO. SO THERE
ARE AT VERY DIFFERENT TIMES.
I CAN'T TESTIFY TO THIS. THESE I ACTUALLY SAW ON
THE EVENING THAT THEY WERE DONE, THAT'S A XEROX, BUT I SAW
THE REAL THING. THIS, i Just HAVE TO GO BY WHAT IS THERE.
Q. UNDER WHOSE DIRECTION WAS THE LAST ONE DONE?
A. THE LAST ONES WERE PERFORMED AS PART OF AN EVALUATION
BY MARILYN FELDMAN WHO DID THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATIONS OF
THE JUVENILES.
Q. EXCUSE ME. T'M SORRY.
A. THAT'S IT. GO AHEAD.
Q. WHAT ARE HER QUALIFICATIONS? .
A. SHE HAS A MASTERS IN PSYCHOLOGY AND IS CURRENTLY A
PH.D. STUDENT. AND ALTHOUGH WE WOULD LIKE AT THE TIME TO
HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HAVE A VERY SENIOR PSYCHOLOGIST DO THE
TESTING, FUNDS WERE NOT AVAILABLE FOR THAT. HOWEVER, SHE
WAS SUPERVISED BY A SENIOR PSYCHOLOGIST AT THE NEW SCHOOL
FOR SOCIAL RESEARCH.
Q. DID YOU DO ANY OF THE SUPERVISION?
A. NO, I WOULD NOT SUPERVISE A PSYCHOLOGIST.
Q. HAVE YOU TALKED TO HER ABOUT IT?
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
—_— SS EES
255
A. I'M SURE I TALKED TO HER ABOUT IT YEARS aGO. I
CERTAINLY HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT IT IN THE PAST YEAR OR SO.
Q. HOW MANY DEATH ROW INMATES HAVE YOU INTERVIEWED IN THE
STATE OF FLORIDA?
A. I'M NOT SURE. MY GUESS IS ABOUT FOURTEEN, BUT I'M NOT
POSITIVE.
Q. HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE PART OF THIS ARTICLE WE HAVE
JUST BEEN DISCUSSING?
A.--- I THINK----GEE, THERE MIGHT BE MORE: I'M SORRY.” ~~
THERE MIGHT BE A FEW MORE. EIGHT OR TEN WOULD BE PART OF
THAT ARTICLE. _
Q. AND THEY WERE SELECTED BECAUSE OF THE IMMINENCE OF TEE
EXECUTION OF THE SENTENCE?
A. YES. IN ORDER NOT TO SKEW THE FINDINGS TOWARD
PSYCHOPATHOLOGY, THEY WERE CHOSEN. SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE
THE CLIENTS, I GUESS, OF ONE PUBLIC DEFENDER GROUP AND THEY
WERE THE ONES WHO WERE CLOSEST, I GUESS, TO POSSIBLE
EXECUTION.
INDEED, THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO ELIMINATE ANYONE
WHO WAS KNOWN TO HAVE ANY SERIOUS PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS IN
ORDER NOT TO PREJUDICE FINDINGS.
Q. HAVE YOU DONE OR DO YOU HAVE UNDER PREPARATION A
SIMILAR ARTICLE WITH RESPECT TO JUVENILES?
A. YES. ACTUALLY A BETTER ARTICLE BECAUSE IT'S, THE
FUNDS WERE MORE ADEQUATE AND SO WE COULD DO EVEN MORE
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
am
SES
ion
Amel
:
2
COMPREHENSIVE ASSESSMENTS OF JUVENILES.
Q. AND I TAKE IT THAT HAS NOT BEEN PUBLISHED YET?
A. NO, THAT HAS NOT BEEN PUBLISHED.
Q. WILL IT VARY MATERIALLY FROM THE REPORT WE HAVE JUST
BEEN DISCUSSING?
A. IN ONE WAY IT WILL.
Q. HOW IS THAT, DOCTOR? :
A. IT WILL, AS I RECALL, IT WILL DOCUMENT, IN ADDITION TO
-- WELL, IT WILL. DOCUMENT, IN ADDITION.TO PSYCHIATRIC OR... .
NEUROLOGICAL KIND OF IMPAIRMENT, THERE IS ALSO
NEUROPSYCHOLOGICAL TEST DATA THERE WHICH IS MORE SENSITIVE
THAN SOME OF THE ORDINARY PSYCHOLOGICAL DATA. AND IN
ADDITION, if WILL FOCUS ON THE ISSUE OF EXTRAORDINARY
PHYSICAL AND INDEED SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE JUVENILE DEATH ROW
POPULATION AND ON FAMILY VIOLENCE SO THAT IT WILL OF A
GREATER FOCUS ON FAMILY PATHOLOGY THAN THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE.
Q. SO THE BASIC DIFFERENCE THEN WILL BE FAMILY
ORIENTATION AND WHAT WAS THE OTHER ONE, AND NEUROLOGY?
A. NO. NEUROPSYCHOLOGICAL. ON THAT GROUP WE WERE ABLE
TO HAVE A MORE SENIOR PSYCHOLOGIST PERFORM THE
HALSTEAD-REITAN BATTERY OF NEUROPSYCHOLOGICAL TESTS AND IT
WILL ALSO PRESENT THOSE DATA. ;
Q. AND IN THIS REPORT OF THE FIFTEEN, DIDN'T YOU HAVE A
PSYCHOLOGIST WORKING ON THAT?
A. NO. IT WAS OCCASIONAL. THERE WAS NO FUNDS FOR IT, SO
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
an
257
THAT WHEN, IF BY CHANCE IT HAD BEEN DONE SOMEWHERE AT SOME
TIME IN THE PAST, WE TRIED TO GET HOLD OF IT. BUT WE DID
NOT HAVE THE FUNDS TO DO THAT.
Q. DO YOU BELIEVE OR IS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT THE
CONCLUSIONS THIS THAT REPORT AS TO THE FIFTEEN DEATH ROW
INMATES IS FAIRLY REPRESENTATIVE OF ALL DEATH ROW INMATES?
A. MAY I LOOK AT THE CONCLUSIONS? I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT
THAT IN AWHILE.
Q. ALL RIGHT. - - wee 7 on =
MR. COLEMAN: YOUR HONOR, PERHAPS MR. MEGINNIS 7
COULD ALSO PROVIDE ME WITH A COPY OF THE REPORT.
A. I'M SORRY. WOULD YOU REPEAT YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE?
Q. MY QUESTION WAS ON THE BASIS OF THAT REPORT, IS iT
YOUR OPINION THAT ALL DEA'H ROW INMATES ARE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR
TO THOSE FIFTEEN?
A. NO. OUR CONCLUSION IS, WHAT WE STATE IS IF OUR
FIFTEEN SUBJECTS ARE REPRESENTATIVE OF DEATH ROW INMATES,
AND BECAUSE OF THE CRITERIA FOR THEIR SELECTION WE BELIEVE
THAT THEY ARE, THEN WE MUST CONCLUDE THAT MANY, NOT ALL,
THAT MANY CONDEMNED INDIVIDUALS IN THIS COUNTRY PROBABLY
SUFFER, WHOOPS, FROM A MUTIPLICITY OF UNRECOGNIZED
PSYCHIATRIC OR PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS THAT ARE RELEVANT TO
SENTENCES OF MITIGATION. 50 THAT OUR ‘CONCLUSION IS THAT :
PROBABLY GIVEN THIS, MANY, NOT ALL, BUT-THAT-MANY DO SUFFER
FROM DISORDERS THAT, BECAUSE OF THE PERFUNCTORY QUALITY OF
- UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER -
24
25
258
THE EVALUATIONS OR THE LACK OF ANY EVALUATIONS, WERE NEVER
CLARIFIED OR IDENTIFIED.
Q. WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT IT IS YOUR OPINION THAT
MOST HAVE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM?
A. THAT WOULD BE AN IRRESPONSIBLE LEAP. THIS IS A GROUP
OF FIFTEEN FROM PARTICULAR STATES AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE
MOST IRRESPONSIBLE TO MAKE SUCH A CONCLUSION OF WHAT IS
ABOUT TWO THOUSAND. I THINK WE COULD JUST SAY MANY.
UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER
-EWIS - CROSS - MEGINNIS
259
oO. NOW THIS MORNING YOU WERE TESTIFYING WITH RESPECT TO
MR. BUNDY'S RECORD, AND I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU, IS IT NOT
TRUE THAT HE WAS AWARDED A BACHELOR OF SCIENCE DEGREE WITH
DISTINCTION IN PSYCHOLOGY PARTICULAR THE UNIVERSITY OF
WASH INGTON?
A... I BELIEVE THAT, I DON'T. KNOW WHAT THE WHETHER IT WAS
WITH DISTINCTION, SUT I KNOW THAT HE DID WELL, AND THAT HE
WAS AWARDED A DEGREE AT THE END.
Q. I SHOW YOU PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NUMBER THIRTY TWO, AND
ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THE TOP LINE.
A. WELL, CORRECT.
Q. SO HE KNOWS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT PSYCHOLOGY, DOESN HE?
A. THAT, I DON'T KNOW. I THINK THAT HE PROSABLY DOES NO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
C. YOU ALSO-- EXCUSE ME?
A. I THINK THAT HE DOES NO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I DON'T
KNOW-— -
QO. I AM SORRY, I DON'T LIKE TO CUT YOU OFF.
YOU ARE THROUGH NOW?
A. I THINK So. —
Q. NOW YOU ALSO HAD SOMETHING TO SAY WITH RESPECT TO HIS
ACADEMIC RECORD AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY. AND I SHOW YOU
PLAINTIFF EXHIBIT NUMBER THIRTY THREE TO REFRESH YOUR
MEMORY .
A. YES, RIGHT.
eel
o
LEWIS - CROSS - MEGINNIS
260
Q- IS IT NOT TRUE, DOCTOR, THAT THE COVER LETTER ON THIS
ADDRESSED TO COLEMAN SAYS THAT MR. BUNDY WAS A VISITING
STUDENT FOR THE SUMMER AT STANFORD?
A. I ASSUME IT SAYS THAT.
Q. WELL, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IT?
A. NO. I BELIEVE IT SAYS THAT. HE WAS NOT ENROLLED AS A,
FOR A DEGREE THERE, AND I IMAGINE THAT'S THE TERM THEY GIVE
TO SOMEONE WHO IS TAKING A SUMMER COURSE.
Q. SO IN OTHER WORDS, HE REALLY LEFT STANFORD AND WAS IN
“GOOD STANDING? - - oo
A. HE PASSED THE COURSE WITH A C. MAY I MAKE, MAKE NOTE
OF SOMETHING YOU SHOWED ME THERE ON THAT RECORD THAT I THINK
IS VERY IMPORTANT?
Q. WELL, DOCTOR, I THINK THAT THE PURPOSE OF COURSE IS
FOR ME TO EXAMINE THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU GAVE THIS MORNING,
AND I AM SURE YOUR COUNSEL WILL BE IN A POSITION TO COVER
ANYTHING THAT I MIGHT HAVE OMITTED.
DOCTOR, YOU WERE ENGAGED, YOU HAVE ALREADY ~
TESTIFIED TO EVALUATE MR. TED BUNDY AND I WANT TO GO NOW TO
THE AFFIDAVIT THAT WE DISCUSSED THIS MORNING, AND JUST GO
THROUGH IT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED, POINTING OUT A FEW THINGS.
FIRST OF ALL, YOU SAY IN PARAGRAPH TWELVE, I HAVE
CONDUCTED AN EVALUATION OF THEODORE ROBERT BUNDY FOR THE
PURPOSE OF DETERMINING WHETHER MR. BUNDY WAS COMPETENT TO
STAND TRIAL DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME FROM HIS ARREST IN
Pad
pe oes EN
24
25
LEWIS -— CROSS ~ MEGINNIS
261
*FLORIDA THROUGH SENTENCING FOR THE CHI OMEGA CRIMES.
BDO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A. YES, COULD YOU JUST REFRESH MY MEMORY ABOUT THE DATE
OF THIS AFFIDAVIT?
Q. SEPTEMBER TENTH OR ELEVENTH OF THIS YEAR.
A. OF THIS YEAR, CORRECT. THIS WAS AFTER I HAD REVIEWED
THE CASE- LOADS OF-HIS MATERIALS,;-RIGHT,-SO THIS WAS- LONG -— -
AFTER, JUST THE FLORIDA EVALUATION.
Q. NOW, IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH, YOU SAY FOR THE PURPOSE OF
CONDUCTING THIS EVALUATION, I FAMILIARIZED MYSELF WITH THE —
LEGAL TEST FOR COMPETENCY TO STAND TRIAL, WHICH I UNDERSTAND
TO SE THAT _THE DEFENDANT MUST HAVE SUFFICIENT PRESENTABILITY
TO CONSULT WITH HIS LAWYER WITH A REASONABLE DEGREE OF
RATIONAL UNDERSTANDING AND AS WELL AS FACTUAL UNDERSTANDING
OF THE REPROCEEDING AGAINST HIM?
A. CORRECT.
QO. NOW, THAT IS YOUR FAMILIARIZATION, HAVE YOU EVER
LISTENED TO ANY CASES ON-- HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS QUOTED
ANY WHERE IN THE CASE BOOK?
A. I HAVE NOT STUDIED THE CASE BOOK. I ACTUALLY LOOKED I
GUESS AT THE, AT THE STATUTE, BUT I HAVE NOT LOOKED AT CASES
OR ANY CASE BOOK, NO.
Q. SO IN OTHER WORDS ALL YOU HAVE IS THAT YOU ARE
FAMILIAR WITH THIS PARTICULAR STATUTE, OR THIS PARTICULAR
STATEMENT AS IT APPEARS SOMEWHERE?
=
:
Ae
ORE
LEWIS —- CROSS —- MEGINNIS
262
11a. YES, WELL, IT'S SO SIMILIAR TO THE CRITERIA USED IN
2 | OTHER STATES, THAT I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE CRITERIA, NOT ONLY
3 | FROM FLORIDA BUT OTHER CASES THAT I WORKED ON.
4 | 0. BUT YOU NEVER REVIEWED ANY INTERRUPTIONS OF THIS, I
5 | TAKE IT? -
6 | A. NO.
71 0. NOW, YOU FURTHER GO ALONG AND YOU SAY MY EVALUATION IN
8 | THIS MATTER WAS BASED ON THE FOLLOWING. MY SEVERAL .
9 | INTERVIEWS WITH MR. SUNDY AND YOU HAVE ALREADY GIVEN THOSE
10 DATES, I BELIEVE, THEY APPEAR IN EXHIBIT, PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT
14 NUMBER TWENTY NINE.
12 CORRECT?
13 A. YES.
14, Q. AND NEUROMETRIC EVALUATION OF MR. BUNDY'S CONDUCT BY
15 DOCTOR LESLEY PRICHET, AND WRITTEN OPINIONS OF THE FLORIDA
16 SUPREME COURT, THE SENTENSING FINDINGS OF THE TRIAL COURTS,
17 THOSE ARE ALL INCLUDED AS PART OF YOUR REVIEW, ARE THEY NOT?
18 A. YES. I SHOULD SAY BY THE WAY, THAT I DO NOT REMEMBER
19 EACH ONE OF THESE DOCUMENTS, THEY WERE REVIEWED A LONG TIME
20 AGO, AND I ACTUALLY HAD TO SO OVER AND CHECK OFF WHAT IT WAS
21 I HAD WITH, I CAN'T PRETEND.TO REMEMBER WHAT IS IN EACH ONE -
22 OF THESE DOCUMENTS.
23 OQ. IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THIS IS AN ACCURATE
24 REPRESENTATION OF THINGS THOUGH THAT YOU DID REVIEW, WHEN
25 CALLED UPON BY COUNSEL FOR MR. SUNDY TO ENTER THIS CASE?
(
LEWIS - CROSS - MEGINNIS
263
A. UP UNTIL THE TIME THAT I DID THIS, YES, IT'S NOT A
COMPREHENSIVE ACCOUNT, BECAUSE NOW MY FINDINGS ARE BASED ON
CONSIDERABLY MORE DATA.
HOWEVER, AT THE TIME THIS IS, THIS REPRESENTS WHAT
I COULD RELY ON.
Q. NOW THE NEXT ITEM THAT YOU HAVE LISTED, NOTES BY MR.
_BUNDY'S PRESENT COUNSEL OF THEIR INTERVIEWS WITH HIS TRIAL.
COUNSEL, MICHAEL MINERVA, MARGARET GOOD, ED HARVEY, LYNN
THOMPSON, AND VICTOR AFRICANO?
A. YES: -
Q. AND INVESTIGATOR JOSEPH ALLOW, ALONG WITH SOME OF THE
CONTEMPORANEOUS MEMORANDA OF MR. BUNDY'S TRIAL COUNSEL?
A. CORRECT.
@. AND WHEN YOU SAY TRIAL COUNSEL, ARE YOU REFERRING TO
COUNSEL FOR MR. BUNDY PRESENT IN THIS COURT TODAY?
A. I AM TRYING TO RECALL WHETHER SOME OF THESE WERE ALSO
MEMORANDA, NO, I THINK THESE WERE MEMORANDA. 7
AGAIN, ITS BEEN A LONG TIME, I THINK SOME OF THEM
WERE MEMORANDA THAT WERE, THAT WERE PREPARED 8Y OTHER
COUNSEL PRIOR TO THIS, I THINK DURING THE CHI OMEGA TRIAL,
OR IN REFERENCE TO THE CHI OMEGA TRIAL, I BELIEVE THAT SOME
OF HIS COUNSEL AGAIN, I COULD BE WRONG, SECAUSE THERE WERE
SO MANY LAWYERS IN THIS THAT I BELIEVE THAT MR. MINERVA HAD
PREPARED SOME MEMORANDA AND THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHER
ATTORNEYS, SO THAT I AM PRETTY SURE THAT WHEN I AM SAYING
Bend
LEWIS - CROSS — MEGINNIS
264
CONTEMPORANEOUS, THEY WERE MEMORANDA THAT WERE CREATED OR
WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF HIS TRIAL.
Q. SO CONTEMPORANEOUS MEMORANDA THEN COULD BE THOSE OF
MINERVA, GOOD, HARVEY, THOMPSON OR AFRICANO?
A. CORRECT, AND I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK OVER MY TWO BOX
LOADS OF DATA TO TO SEE WHAT THEY WERE.
Q. LET US TURN NOW TO,--STRIKE THAT. - —
YOU ALSO LOOKED AT SOME MOTIONS, YOU LOOKED AT AN
AUDIO TAPE.
THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T LOOK AT AN AUDIO TYPE. 1f
LISTENED TO AN AUDIO TAPE.
Q. you LISTEN TO AN AUDIO TAPE AND YOU HAD TRANSCRIPTS OF
VARIOUS INTERVIEWS WITH MR. BUNDY AND LAW OFFICIALS.
WHEN AND WHERE?
A. THE ONES THAT I PARTICULARLY RECALL NOW WERE
TRANSCRIPTS, WERE ACTUALLY AUDIO TAPES WHEN HE WAS
INTERVIEWED BY POLICE OFFICERS WHEN HE WAS FIRST ARRESTED~
Q. THAT WOULD 8E IN PENSACOLA?
A. YES, ARRESTED IN PENSACOLA, SO THAT THEY WERE I
BELIEVE THEY WERE TAPES THAT OCCURRED WHILE, I DON'T THINK
HE WAS YET INDICTED FOR MURDER, BUT “HE-HAD> BEEN ~ ~~
INCARCERATED, AND I THINK IT WAS ON CREDIT CARD OFFENSES,
AND WAS TALKING NIGHT AFTER NIGHT WITH DIFFERENT POLICE
OFFICERS, I BELIEVE THAT THOSE ARE THE ONES I AM REFERRING
TO HERE.
Psa
LEWIS ~- CROSS —- MEGINNIS
265
Q. DOCTOR, I AM NOT GOING TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND TIME OF
THE COURT. THIS IS A MATTER OF RECORD.
BUT I JUST WANTED TO TO ASK YOU, YOU DID WHAT WE
ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS NOTES FROM COUNSEL THAT YOU
REVIEWED TO MAKE YOUR REPORT?
A. WHERE YOU'RE REFERRING TO, I AM SORRY.
oO. PARAGRAPH F? - ee
A. YES, I REVIEWED NOTES THAT I BELIEVE I AM PRETTY SURE
POLLY NELSON, MIGHT HAVE BEEN OTHER ATTORNEYS, HAD MADE OF
INTERVIEWS THAT. THEY. HAD HAD WITH THESE PARTICULAR
INDIVIDUALS .~
°. NOW YOU HAVE THAT AFFIDAVIT IN FRONT OF YOU?
A. PARDON ME?
Q. YOU HAVE THAT AFFIDAVIT IN FRONT OF YOU, DO YOU NOT?
A. YES.
oO. LET'S SHIFT OVER TO PAGE EIGHT, NUMBER R OR LETTER R.
A. YES.
Q. NOW, IT SAYS THAT YOU CONSIDERED NOTES OF PRESENT ~
COUNSELS INTERVIEWS WITH MEMBERS OF MR. BUNDY'S FAMILY?
A. YES.
QO. INCLUDING CAROL BOON, LOUIS BUNDY, AUDRY TAILOR,
VIRGINIA BRISTOLL, JULIA SUNDAY, AND JOHN I THINK YOU
REFERRED TO HIM AS JACK HOWELL THIS MORNING?
A. YES.
Q. AND YOU REVIEWED THOSE NOTES AND YOUR CONSIDERATION
~
sc
bisa
LEWIS ~ CROSS - MEGINNIS
266
FOR PREPARATION OF YOUR REPORT OF AUGUST 19TH, 1987?
A. YES, AT THAT POINT I HAD NOT INTERVIEWED THEM.
Q. DIDN'T YOU INTERVIEW THEM?
|
|
A. AT THIS POINT I HAD NOT YET BEEN ABLE TO INTERVIEW H
THEM, SO, BUT I DID SEE WHAT THEY HAD TOLD HIS ATTORNEYS.
Q. AS HIS ATTORNEYS WROTE THEM DOWN AND GAVE THEM TO YOU?
A. YES.
Q. THEN IF WE GO TO PLAINTIFFS EXHIBIT NUMBER THIRTY,
WHICH YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT THIS MORNING?
A. WHICH IS THAT? : ae
oO. THIS IS YOUR REPORT OF AUGUST NINTEEN, 1987.
IF YOU GO TO PAGE FIVE?
A. RIGHT.
Q. I QUOTE: THERE IS ALSO SOME EVIDENCE THAT FOR BRIEF
PERIODS OF TIME MR. SUNDYS ENTIRE-~
A. EXCUSE ME, WHERE ARE YOU.
Q. THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, MID POINT, PAGE FIVE?
A. PAGE FIVE.
Q. AND IF YOU WILL GO DOWN TO THE THIRD SENTENCE. THERE
IS ALSO SOME EVIDENCE THAT FOR SRIEF PERIODS OF TIME MR.
BUNDYS ENTIRE PERSONALITY CHANGES TO THE POINT WHERE HE'S
ALMOST UNRECOGNIZEABLE AND IS QUITE FRIGTENING.
HIS MOTHER'S AUNT VIRGINIA 8RISTOLL, WITNESSED ONE
OF THESE EPISODES AND BECAME TERRIFIED.
AT THIS TIME AFTER A PLESANT EVENING AT A CONCER
AOA Io
ry
ee
nN
nN
24
25
LEWIS ~— CROSS - MEGINNIS
267
WITH MRS. BRISTOLL, MR. BUNDY SUDDENLY AS THEY WAITED AT THE
TRAIN STATION STARTED RAMBLING AND MADE NO SENSE, LOOKED
CRAZY AND OUT OF IT, OUT OF TOUCH WITH HER?
A. YES.
Q. SO THIS HAD TO BE BASED, DID IT NOT, ON NOTES THAT
WERE PROVIDED TO YOU BY COUNSEL?
A. YES, AT THAT TIME. -
Q- YOU HAD NOT INTERVIEWED THESE PEOPLE? -
A. NO.
ion WHEN DID YOU INTERVIEW THEM?
A. I INTERVIEWED THEM APPROXIMATELY TWO WEEKS AGO,
BECAUSE I WANTED TO FIND OUT FOR MYSELF WHAT THEIR ACTUAL
VERSION WAS, ALTHOUGH I HAD NO REASON TO QUESTION WHAT THE
ATTORNEYS SAID, I STILL FELT THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO
HEAR WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY, AND TO BE ABLE TO ASK MY OWN
KINDS OF QUESTIONS, AND TO AFFIRM WHETHER OR DISPROVE WHAT
THEY SAID, WHICH IS WHY I THINK I SAID THERE IS WHAT DID 1
SAID, SOME REASON, BUT YES, I SAID THERE WAS ALSO SOME
EVIDENCE.
NOW WHEN I SAID THERE'S ALSO SOME EVIDENCE, I SAID
THAT VERY CAREFULLY, BECAUSE I REALIZE THAT IT'S SECOND
HAND, AND IN ORDER TO TESTIFY IN COURT I FEEL THAT IT™S MUCH
FIRMER GROUND, ABLE TO ACTUALLY TALK WITH THE INDIVIDUALS,
AND HENCE I BELIEVE i TALKED WITH EVERY ONE OF THEM.
Q. IN FURTHER REFERENCE TO PAGE FIVE, WOULD IT BE FAIR TO
WDA RTT
ee
PECULIAR EPISODES.
LEWIS - CROSS —- MEGINNIS
268
SAY IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH WHERE YOU SAY IN SUMMARY, AND IN
VIEW OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID, THAT THE WORD SHOULD BE IN
SUMMARY THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE MR. BUNDY HAS SUFFERED FROM A
LONG STANDING PSYCHOLOGY DISORDER AND WAS INCOMPETENT?
A. WELL, NO, BECAUSE THIS DOES NOT REFER TO THOSE
INTERVIEWS PARTICULARLY WHICH HAVE TO DO WITH THESE VERY
THIS REFERS TO MY ACTUAL INTERVIEWS WITH MR.
BUNDY, AND WITH A KNOWLEDGE OF HIS FUNCTIONING OVERTIME, AND
HIS DROPPING OUT OF SCHOOL,—HIS FLUCTUATING PERFORMANCE, so
THAT I BELIEVE THAT REALLY IN THE ABSENCE OF THE DATA,
ACTUALLY THE FAMILY WAS CURIOUSLY NOT HELPFUL REGARDING THE
MOOD FLUCTUATIONS. THINGS I GUESS STOOD OUT IN THERE
MIND, NO, THIS WAS THIS PSYCHOTIC DISORDER IS REALLY BASED
ON THE INTERVIEWS WITH MR. BUNDY, AND ON HIS PERFORMANCE AT
SCHOOL, AND ON, WELL, JUST THE FLUCTUATIONS IN HIS
FUNCTIONING. -
Q. AND NOTES FROM PRESENT AND PRIOR COUNSEL? .
AL CORRECT. - -
Q. _ DOCTOR, YOU INDICATE THAT YOU HAVE NOT LOOKED AT_ANY
OF THE INTERPRETATIONS. OF THE STATUTE IN WHICH YOU ARE
FAMILIAR.
AND I ASSUME THEREFORE THAT YOU HAVE NOT READ THE
OPINION STYLED BUNDY VERSUS DUGGER WHICH WAS REPORTED THIS
YEAR ON APRIL 2ND, T9387. YOU HAVN'T READ THAT, HAVE YOU?
E
i ae
TAA
ee
t
w
24
25
LEWIS — CROSS ~ MEGINNIS
269
A. I DON'T THINK SO.
Q. SO THEN YOU WOULD NOT BE APPRAISED OF THE STANDARD
CONTAINED IN THAT OPINION THAT A DEFENDANT IS NOT ENTITLED
TO AN EVIDENTIARY HEARING ON THIS CLAIM OF INCOMPETENCY
UNLESS HE PRESENTS CLEAR AND CONVINCING EVIDENCE TO CREATE A
REAL SUBSTANTIAL AND LEGITIMATE DOUBT AS TO HIS MENTAL
CAPACITY. — we we ee oe
MR. MENSER: I OBJECT To THAT.
MR. COLEMAN: I OBJECT. THAT HAS NOTHING TO BO
WITH THE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE HEARING SINCE WE ARE-~ HERE ©
IT'S OBVIOUSLY IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT'S PART OF THE CROSS
EXAMINATION.
SY MR. MEGINNIS:
Q. YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF THAT, ARE YOU?
A. NO. I HAVE NOT SEEN IT.
Q. AND TO PUT THIS THING IN PROPER PROSPECTIVE, DO YoU
KNOW WHAT THE CHARTER IS FOR THIS PARTICULAR HEARING AS
OUTLINED IN THAT VERY SAME OPINION BY THE 11TH CIRCUIT?
A. MR. MAGINNIS, IF I HAVEN'T READ IT, HOW WOULD I KNOW
IT?
QO. IT WAS JUST THE STATEMENT IN YOUR AFFIDAVIT AS TO
FAMILIARITY WITH THE LEGAL STANDARD. NOW?
A. MY STATEMENT TELLS YOU MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE LEGAL
STANDARD, AND IT’S LIMITED TO THAT. TI HAVE NOT BEEN READ
24
25
LEWIS — CROSS ~- MEGINNIS
ANY TEXT BOOKS OR OTHER CASES.
oO. THAT'S FINE.
NOW FOR YOUR INFORMATION, YOU HEARD VARIOUS
OBJECTIONS OR OBJECTION MADE BY ME THIS MORNING WITH RESPECT
TO THE SCOPE OF THE EVIDENCE THAT OUR MISSION IS HERE TO
EXAMINE THE LAKE CITY MURDER OR TRIAL; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A. RIGHT.
QO. SO WHAT WE ARE FOCUSING ON RIGHT NOW IS NOT CHI OMEGA,
IT IS LAKE CITY?
A. EXCUSE ME, COULD YOU CLARIFY SOMETHING?
Q. THE LAKE CITY TRIAL?
A. BUT.
QO. THAT IS AN EXPRESSION IN THE-~ YOU ACCEPT THAT AS AN
EXPRESSION OUT OF THE 11TH CIRCUIT?
A. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE TWO PREPARATIONS FOR
BOTH TRIALS WAS OCCURRING SIMULTANEOUSLY, AND THAT THEREFORE
MR. BUNDYS STATE OF MIND, ACTUALLY PERHAPS THROUGHOUT THE
CHI OMEGA TRIAL, WAS ALSO RELEVANT TO LAKE CITY, BECAUSE
UNLESS I AM MISTAKEN, HE WAS ALSO PREPARING FOR THE OTHER
TRIAL WHICH WAS SCHEDULED RIGHT AFTERWARDS.
Q. NOW WITH ALL THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE TALKED TO, DID you
TALK TO JUDGE JOPLIN?
A. NO, I DIDN'T SPEAK TO ANY OF THE JUDGES.
Oo. DO YOU KNOW WHO JUDGE JOPLIN IS?
Ay YOU WOULD HAVE TO REMIND ME OF WHICH CASE. I THINK
24
25
LEWIS ~ CROSS - MEGINNIS
WAS HE THE LAKE CITY?
Q.- DO YOU KNOW WHO JUDGE~— WELL,~-STRIKE THAT.
HE'S THE LAKE CITY JUDGE?
A. THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT.
Q. YOU HAYN'T TALKED TO HIM, HAVE YOU?
A. I REPEAT, NO I HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM.
Q. AND IS IT APPROPRIATE TO MAKE THE DETERMINATION AS TO
COMPETENCY TO STAND TRIAL TO CONSIDER EVIDENCE OF IRRATIONAL
BEHAVIOR AT TRIAL?
A. WELL, THAT'S CERTAINLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU-- - -
COULD CONSIDER. HOWEVER, MOST INDIVIDUALS, AT LEAST IN MY
EXPERIENCE. EVEN SOME OF THE MOST DISTURSED INDIVIDUALS ARE
OFTEN ABLE TO SIT STILL THROUGH MOST OF THE TRIAL, AND WITH
ENCOURAGEMENT FROM ATTORNEYS TO AT LEAST LOOK AS IF THEY ARE
NOT CRAZY. SO THAT I CERTAINLY WOULD NEVER MAKE, WOULD
NEVER MAKE A PSYCHIATRIC ASSESSMENT BASED SOLELY ON WHAT
STATE MR. BUNDY LOOKED LIKE AT A TRIAL.
QO. A SECOND FACTOR. HOW ABOUT THE DEMEANOR AT TRIAL?
A. IT VARIES. IF A PERSON IS FLAMBOYANTLY KIND OF
PECULIAR, OR OSTREPERIOUS, CAVALIER OR INAPPROPRIATE, THEN
YOU HAVE, WHICH IS RARE, VERY RARE, THEN YOU CERTAINLY CAN
SAY SOMETHING, YOU CAN'T REALLY ADDRESS COMPETENCY THAT WELL
BECAUSE COMPETENCY IS A VERY-- COME TO THINK OF IT,
COMPETENCY REALLY HAS SUCH A SPECIFIC CRITERIA OR CRITERION,
HAT EVEN A PERSONS BEHAVIOR A RIAL MIGHT NOT ADDRESS
ao,
24
25
LEWIS - CROSS — MEGINNIS
272
WHETHER HE OR SHE UNDERSTOOD THE PROCEEDINGS, OR WHETHER HE
OR SHE HAD BEEN ABLE, LIKE WHEN TRIAL WAS NOT GOING ON TO
ASSIST ATTORNEYS, SO THAT IT'S A POOR WAY OF ASSISTING
MENTAL STATUS.
I HAVE NEVER RELIED ON THAT SOLELY.”
Q. ANOTHER FACTOR, NUMBER THREE, ANY PRIOR MEDICAL
OPINION ON THE ACCUSED COMPETENCY TO STAND TRIAL. oo _
WOULD THAT BE CONSIDERED WOULD THAT BE A GOOD
FACTOR?
A. WELL, YOU WANT TO SEE IT, MEDICAL OPINIONS VARY,
ACCORDING TO THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT A PERSON SPENT WITH AN
INDIVIDUAL, THE TRAINING OF THE PERSONS DURING THE MEDICAL
AND WHATEVER EVALUATION, AND THE THOROUGHNESS AND COMPETENCE
OF THE EVALUATION, SO THAT SURE YOU WANT TO SEE IT, BUT YOU
WILL NOT GIVE EQUAL WEIGHT, LET'S SAY, TO A TEN MINUTE OR
TWENTY MINUTE INTERVIEW, OR ONE HOUR INTERVIEW, THAT YOU
MIGHT GIVE TO AN EXTENSIVE EVALUATION.
Q. LET'S GO BACK TO THESE BRIEF FACTORS NOW, EVIDENCE OF
THE DEFENDANTS IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOR. ~
WOULDN'T THAT BE AN APPROPRIATE QUESTION TO ASK
JUDGE JOPLIN? . -
A. WELL, AT LEAST IN THE MY EXPERIENCE I HAVE UNDERSTOOD
THAT IT'S, IT WOULD BE EXTROARDINARIALLY INAPPROPRIATE FOR A
PSYCHIATRIST TO ATTEMPT, IN EVERY CASE, TO, OR MOST CASES TO
NTERVIEW A JUDGE PERSONALLY, THAT NOW PERHAPS IT’S DONE, I
