All right, so first question is pretty basic.
Who are you?
Just like name to the extent that you can share what you're doing.
And then kind of what brought you to this point, you know, in your career, why hasn't
it pertained to the definitely or not, but just kind of all that.
Yeah.
Do I include sort of the second piece of people, my involvement in VADP or not?
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
So I've been to the latest and I've served as the executive director of VADP from 2008 to
2010 and then had the privilege of staying on to serve on the board until 2015.
And so I would say that criminal justice reform, social justice has carried through all
of the work that I've done, whether it be volunteer or my full time job from support
housing work to do in work at VADP.
Now I actually do diversity equity and inclusion work and some of those same things are around
racial justice and all of the work that I think we have to do to create some pretty significant
wrongs.
And so VADP was this amazing part of my personal and professional journey to really understand
things that we needed to do to make VADP, and if that was part of what we were doing.
It's okay.
So you mentioned you were the executive director and then you joined the board.
How did you get that connection?
How did you, you know, you got to school at some point and you ended up becoming the executive
director.
How was that connection to the VADP?
So I think I became really interested in, and I think criminal justice reform and it
can work with the definitely when I was in college and I did an internship at Pau
Tune Correctional Center.
I was in school for social work and that internship I think radically transformed what my
cat was and I realized I wanted to look at policy and not do direct social work realizing
that systemically there were such huge issues.
And so from that point I started kind of down this path of doing policy work.
I got connected with the Virginia Interface Center for Public Policy and when I finished
graduate school in 2008, I called the Smith and said, I'm looking for the next step in
my journey and for a full-time job and I said, okay, I think I have it.
And two days later I got home and no greeting, no hello, just death penalty for her against.
I said, I'm very badmintonly against the death penalty and high dog, how are we?
And so he sent me this job hosting and I just finished graduate school in Connecticut.
I've been back and forth between Virginia and Connecticut and I thought I had got to
meet some pretty incredible people and in some ways I think took a chance on higher
rate as a young recent graduate school graduate to lead VADP in the next phase of where we
were going.
So I'm going to grad school after your experience with the internship.
What was it like maybe going from a focus on general policy, justice for us as a whole
to very specific, even as it comes out of the question, death penalty for against?
How did you narrow your focus that much?
So I think what was really amazing about starting to work with VADP is the clarity of mission
and clarity of focus.
And I think sometimes, and this is a challenge with nonprofit organizations, it's a challenge
with social justice, work more broadly, is kind of mission-free.
What is it and what is it?
What do we do?
What was amazing about VADP from the start, there was a very clear focus and then we knew
what the problem was and we knew what we were going for.
And when I was there, it looked like it was going to happen in a very very long time.
I'm still kind of in shock and I can't believe we got abolition.
And so 2008, 2009, 2010 is not a time that we were thinking about abolition, but that's
where we knew we wanted to go.
And so anything that we did worked for was very clear focus role.
And I think that's something that makes the abolition movement in general very successful
because we know what we're going for and that it also means that you can bring a lot of
diverse stakeholders to the table because that was always the thing that blew my mind.
It was folks who didn't agree on a bunch of anything who agreed on this issue and then
we could be the convener to bring people together to fight against this comment.
Sure.
That's that's not a common thing that you both mentioned is that some VADP success has
been to pull it up whole diversity that a lot of its border stakeholders, whatever,
held.
You know, people have talked about, you know, it's more or less a progressive movement,
but you reach, especially with the destiny, you reach people all the way around the spectrum
because it's one thing to re-arm, right?
And that's where it's saying, it's a mission is clear and you push it.
Do you want to take a shake because we're just asking?
I was wondering about that.
I can't understand.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I also think it's going to be a huge issue.
But it might not work.
Yeah.
So, you kind of mentioned, you might still be in shock.
So I was spoken with people who were doing this work in the late 80s, early 90s, and there
were like, oh, there's no shock or any backlash.
So here you say, you know, very early or a decade ago, you just think, oh, we didn't really
think we, you know, that's where we were headed to, you know, this year.
It doesn't always abolish the two things.
One, how do you think things change?
Like, what got us from, in a way, you're not really thinking we were going to abolish
definitely to now?
It's abolish, and the second part of the question is, how did you feel or was it a reaction?
That's where the thing you heard.
So, can I sit back to actually share a little bit of context of kind of what was going on and then
you asked me those questions because I'm not going to remember them.
But I think it's helpful to know what was happening at that point in time because what
kind of knowledge you work with, like, in the 80s and in the 90s looked different than in 2008,
and looks different than, you know, the past couple of years.
And it's been such a fast radical change.
So, our biggest challenge was preventing death penalty expansion legislation.
So, that's where we were in the 2009, 2010 legislative session, where it almost felt like a lost cause
where we had Republicans in Democrats overwhelmingly supporting expansion legislation.
Most specifically, I think, what we were the most afraid of was eliminating the trigger man,
which would have had significant implications on actual human lives.
There were other pieces of legislation that I think were more symbolic.
That was something there. We were really worried and had to do some interesting lobbying and work in committee
and hoping to change things around and do, like, a full-core press in 2010 to try to get that.
And that was huge. And I think it was also a surprise.
People were, at that point in time, people were shocked that we were able to stop it.
And I think that was not just the political makeup of who was there.
It was the fact that legislators by March didn't think that it was a safe bet to vote against the death penalty anyway.
One of the folks in 2009 that we actually had to convince to change their vote to the sustained Tim Keens veto
was now Governor Northon. And so he voted for expansion legislation.
And I think that's a key factor when we look at how things have changed in the past decade.
I think it has become safer for legislators to say, yeah, this is not good public policy.
And that has to do with a whole lot of different factors coming together.
The work that has happened in the defense community where we don't have folks who are on death row anymore.
I think that made such a huge difference.
Looking at seeing other states reach abolition and realize, oh, nothing terrible happened.
Like abolition does not mean that there's these huge negative consequences.
And then I became politically safer.
You know, I think that's when I think back to the conversation that Chris Ramos from the Virginia Catholic conference and I had talking to Governor Northon,
it seems surreal that he's then the one who signed that legislation and it shows that that's seen change.
So you mentioned, do you think that change mostly has been the political safety that legislators feel in coming out against the death penalty?
Like, why do you think public opinion should, you know, and I mean, if you know, or if you haven't, I think the last decade or so.
I think there's a couple of things that I've gone into public opinion shifting.
I think one is that there's been a lot of focus on how we can victimize people.
And that is more broadly within the criminal justice system that they're big issues.
And so I think that there's an English awareness there.
And so the one you couple it with, right, but if we get along in this situation, it means someone dies.
Like that, I think, has made a really big difference when it comes to public opinion.
I also think the death penalty has been an interesting thing where there's been really incredible organizing against the death penalty.
You don't see the same kind of organizing for the death penalty.
Even when you're doing the legislative work and you're doing lobby, you don't have the same kind of passion and commitment when it comes to being for the death penalty.
And so I think that's also a piece of it, is that as the abolition movement has been able to educate the public, educating legislators on all of the things that make it a really horrific crash.
And so I think that's a really horrific practice that not having organized support then means that it can more easily fade away.
The other piece is that we finally are having some conversations around racial equity and racial justice that are on what's focused and that that went off.
Change it out. Let me know if this off could have been good.
I was like, all I talked about for so long.
No, you can't really.
Well, I mean now it's just, I think what that left the board, it should not have been not.
It's not in my daily conversation.
And I just took this in here. Don't look at it.
Right.
I think one of the other interesting things I remember doing that go into national abolition of conferences.
And I just just go and sit and talk to the executive director of this access group because we were some of the only states that were really actively executing people.
And so the things that we were looking at were the extension and the fact that we were killing people.
And then you have other states that you have New Jersey who just had a very different conversation at that point in time.
And I think that's been one of the big shifts for us as well.
Like having those capital defender offices and having all of that work in the defense community.
It's really hard from a policy standpoint to justify having a practice that is so rarely used.
And that because it's so rarely used, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense.
And all of those factors coming together led to the perfect goodness of the world.
Sure.
If you're going to ask one of the two questions I asked a little bit, the other one is more personal.
What was your reaction response? How did you feel when you heard Virginia's abolished the death penalty?
When I realized that it was a really good chance that we were going to abolish the death penalty, I think I just started having all of these different recollections and members thinking about things I hadn't thought about in a long time.
And you would think that I might have been kind of getting prepared and a lot of things.
And I think when I heard the news, I still think it was shocking to me.
And it felt totally surreal.
And I think having it happen during the pandemic, when it's like, okay, and then this celebration is over Zoom.
Also, I feel bizarre and surreal.
One of the first things I did actually texted Matt Salman, who was on staff of the EEP for a lot of years.
And Matt and I shared out a closet of an office.
And in Charlottesville, where we got really close and kind of lived through some really intense things.
And so my first thought was reaching out to Matt and saying, this happened.
And we got to be part of it.
And that was just amazing to be able to think it happened.
And I think I still am in the sun, on my own, of shock.
And it will be good, I think, to see folks excited about seeing people in November.
Because I think that will make it feel a lot more real.
Hi, Bob.
That's right.
So the next question I wanted to ask is, you know, in your time, or either, as executive director of the World of War,
are there any people, or are there any events that kind of stick out?
Like, you know, when you think back to your time, directly with VVP,
that just stick out was like, that was an important person interaction moment.
What other than that?
Still are, still are a lot of those moments.
I think one of the most incredible things about being involved with VVP over those years is the people.
And people come to this work because they care, because they're passionate, and they want to do the right thing.
And so it just, it leads to really incredible relationships with folks.
And so I think kind of the event, and people along with it that sticks out in my mind,
was in 2010 when we defeated the trigger man, the trigger man, Bill.
I think when Tim Cain could have left office, Bob McDonald came in and he said,
I'm going to sign every piece of expansion legislation that comes across my desk.
And there was this thought that it was a lost cause, and it was like, this is going to happen.
And what was great is that pulling people together and saying, okay, let's figure, let's not make a lost cause.
Let's figure out a way to do it and try and maybe be creative and do something a little bit different.
And so, you know, you have this coalition of folks that come together where it's, can't go this, and don't smith,
and Jeff Bruce is from the Catholic conference, and the lobby is for these organizations.
And they work together, and you have folks again, who work on many different issues,
a lot of times that are in conflict, and everyone said, let's try and do the impossible and what folks think that we can't do.
And then you have people like John Scheldon, who was our board chair, who every step of the way helped us
kind of actually understand the perspective from the defense community.
And Steve Horthop, who was on the board at that point, and then became the executive director.
And so I think it was a great example of the power of all of these folks coming together and saying, this is something that we need to do.
It's a work that I figure out a way to do it.
And so I think when that bill was defeated, felt to me, it was sort of like our small victory.
It wasn't an election, but it was one of those things that we really did as a collective team.
Sure. That's pretty cool.
I don't know if I have much of that word here, I see them as anything.
I think what I really mentioned just now is a lawyer, right?
Most of them do defense work.
What's it like doing what is pretty policy, but this is a legally rooted issue of doing that, you know, not outside of that community.
But you definitely were a different perspective.
Can you talk about that on your own?
Yeah, I think that was helpful that we had a lot of lawyers on our board.
John Sheldon was the person who hired me and is such an expert in this space.
And so it was really helpful for me to be surrounded by folks like Steve who have been like John Sheldon, who had all of this expertise.
So I could defer to them. So I could ask those questions.
And I think it really actually helps the movement in a lot of ways when we all came together.
It's like you've got to act as folks, you've got the policy, you've got the defense community, because we all have to understand what everybody is doing.
And I will always be grateful for a lot of folks in the defense community who were willing to talk to me about, hey, here's all the legal pieces.
I know you're not a lawyer and we're going to make sure that you understand it because it was critical for me to know what that meant from a policy standpoint.
And so I personally learned a huge amount because people were willing to talk about it.
That's great for me here.
So when you're out doing more, make sure that you translate the leader's chapter down.
And I'm doing a list of, I don't know, right now I'm still so wondering if it's the translate done for them.
Like I said, I don't know, it's kind of else.
Is there anything that I have that asks that you would like to talk about as a pertains specifically to the death penalty or BAP?
There were a couple of things that I don't know.
Sure. So I have another question that has kind of just thrown different stuff actually here.
You mentioned, this is going to wait back. So you mentioned how maybe initially you were more focused on something direct or direct social work, right?
And then at some point kind of switched to thinking like broader picture policy, where it can be talked about pushing it up, actually.
Yeah. So to my junior year of college, my Andrew at Piotrino Veterans Center, and their medical treatment center, thinking that I was going to, you know, I was doing group therapy and individual therapy.
And they added sex under treatment programing. So for me, it was, it was a way, I think, from you know, really dig into my values.
It's a social worker and my values as just a human being. And what I realized I was doing some discharge planning with someone.
And it just was this light bulb of we are sending people up to fail.
Like that is, that is not going to be helpful. Like that's, unless we change something at a systemic level, then we're not going to really be able to do what we say we're doing.
We got this punitive system. And so that was, that was the moment for me when I realized I'm doing discharge planning for someone who is in their 60s, and that I was only certain within a year if he would be back, because we were not setting him up to succeed.
And so that was when I think my whole mindset shifted is I realized, and I think, I think it would be really gratifying to do direct service work and to be a family social worker.
But it would drive me mad because I wouldn't want to be working in the existing system though, I want to change the systems.
And so that kind of just reshaped and shifted my whole career path.
So I think what is my last question before the Stanford, what do you want to say that people is, you know, insurer what now for Virginia, you know, you spent a part over a decade working on death and the way abolition of their people that have been doing it for at least three thousand years.
At least three times at all, right? Like what's next, where's Virginia going from here? You know, we've got the federal death, no, which may be, you know, on the rocks, some people are more confident than others.
But yeah, what's next for Virginia?
Yeah, so I think as far as what's next for Virginia, the number one thing is we need to make sure it sticks.
And we need to make sure it doesn't just stick for right now and for this year or next year, but it sticks for forever.
And I think that's got to be a priority. The other thing is, yes, the federal death penalty, we absolutely need to look at abolition from that standpoint.
I think that's the fact that we're the first state in the South to reach abolition. Is this watershed moment in the broader abolition movement?
And I think we have some really great lessons for others and for other states that it seemed like a launch boss, it seemed like it wouldn't happen.
So what are things that we can do to help those other states? And then I think there is digging in more broadly into the criminal justice system.
Abolition is absolutely remarkable and incredible. That doesn't mean we still don't have some pretty significant issues that we need to do as often as we do with when it comes to our criminal justice system.
Okay. I think that's all I've got.
So if you're good at this final question, in so many words, what he wants to say is that people that are going to be at this celebratory luncheon in November, thanks for the grants, whatever it is.
And I don't know if I mentioned that for this question, would you like to read a look at the panel?
So what I want to say to everyone who's in the room today is thank you. The only way that abolition was reached in Virginia is because of you, because of every single person who is in that room right now.
And many people who are no longer with us and can't be in the room, but I think are with us in spirit.
This is truly a labor of love for so many people. And thank you for making that happen and thank you for being part of really making Virginia more just place for future generations.
Awesome. Let's see if we can.
How did it? Yeah. Thank you so much.
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