I'm just thinking about that's actually the core.
It is.
Awesome.
So let's just start with pretty basic.
Tell me about yourself, what you're doing,
and kind of how you've gotten to that this point.
OK.
So I am a mental health counselor.
And that was kind of a circuitous route.
I had some other jobs in my career path.
But everything kind of led me back to that.
So I ended up going back to grad school late in life.
But I love that work.
I'm actually getting ready to retire from my full-time job,
which is also exciting.
But what led me to working on abolition in particular
is my hometown is Michigan City, Indiana, which a lot of people
might know is the home of the state prison.
So when I was in, I think, seventh grade, my school hosted an event
where some prisoners were brought to the school to speak to us.
And I set up this fake cell block.
And there were four or five prisoners, I think, there.
And they talked about what it was like to be in prison.
So it was kind of that scared, straight idea.
But the thing that made the big impression on me
was when they started talking about what it was like
when someone was being executed.
And that was using the electric chair at that time.
And I remember one of the prisoners talking about,
they were locked down the day before, the day of the day
after to avoid any kind of rioting or whatever
might be going on.
One of the prisoners described the incredible stench
from the burning flesh that permeated the prison.
And so I was sitting there 12 years old, a gased,
to hear this in my little Catholic school
and thinking, how could we possibly be doing this
to other human beings?
And it just stayed with me as traumatizing events may do.
But that was definitely something.
So years later, after I was living in Virginia,
I heard about a meeting that was happening with VADP
as the sponsor and decided to go, because it was something
I had always wanted to come back to.
And this was a time in my life when I could.
So that was about 20 years ago.
Attended a meeting, heard Terry Steinberg speak
at one of the first meetings I went to.
And I knew that I just needed to be involved in this.
So I've been part of the organization since then.
So.
Very nice.
Thank you for that summation.
Can you talk a little bit about maybe the way
if this is something you've experienced,
the way your work in mental health is interconnected
with carceral punishment, the prison system, the death penalty?
Well, yes.
A lot of people, unfortunately, are serving time in prison
when they should be getting treatment for mental health
issues and substance abuse issues, which
is my specialty area.
So it's really frustrating to see how that's become more
the response to people who become homeless, not really
through any fault of their own, maybe some bad choices,
but because of their untreated mental health.
And so they end up in prison.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of that.
And I think too, if you didn't have mental health issues
going in, you're definitely going to develop them
while you're in prison just because of the way
people are treated in prison too.
So there's so much work still to be done as far as reform
in the system in general.
What the response is starting out, and I'm really happy
to see that some places are including mental health workers
as part of the response, so that it's not just the legal system
being the response when somebody's in a mental health
crisis, because that's kind of what starts the whole thing.
And then they're involved in the legal system,
and it takes over, and people don't end up getting the treatment
that they should have.
So definitely an overlap.
Sure, thank you.
So you talked how you got involved with the ADP
and the abolition movement.
Can you talk about your time, especially as you said,
you're on the board?
You talk about your time as a board member,
just what that was like, and just what
being a part of the ADP has been like for the past 20 years,
I think, you said.
Right, right, about 20 years.
So yeah, when I was thinking about this,
one of the things that came to mind was in the early years
of my involvement, we did a lot of community education
type programming, which I really enjoyed.
And had different people speaking and tried
to get out into the community in different audiences,
and that kind of thing, just to raise awareness.
We also did an annual lobbying day on Martin Luther King Day.
And one year, I took my daughter, who was in high school,
along, and one of my colleagues, Paul Blackburn,
brought his daughter along, and these two knew each other.
They were at the same high school.
So we were to meet with McDonnell, who later became the governor,
but was the head of the Courtsham Justice Committee at the time.
We're just trying to get a bill onto the floor to even be heard.
It was clear at the beginning of that meeting
that he didn't want to really have any conversation with us.
So we kind of gently pushed our two daughters
to the front of that conversation,
and he was actually very respectful to them,
although he didn't really then make any commitments
as far as the bill.
But what was interesting was they both then got really more
involved.
And my daughter Ann, people know, has worked for Deepak,
Death Penalty Information Center for over 10 years now.
So it's funny how advocacy leads to a lot of different things.
And in her case, it led to a career path.
So who knew at that particular time?
But we felt like it was important to go and make ourselves
known to the general assembly that there
were people in the state of Virginia,
whether they wanted to acknowledge it or not,
who really were working for and supporting
the abolition of the death penalty.
So that was definitely one.
We hosted the journey of hope in 2006.
And that was a pretty significant event for the ADPA to be
able to host that tour all around the state
and speaking in lots of different venues.
Sister Helen Prishan joined us for some of the events.
Actually, it would even marry for one.
So that was kind of a turning point in some ways
to have that sort of recognition and really become more
a part in some ways of the national movement of working
on abolition in a lot of different states
to be able to work together with people
and have that support from people coming in from other places
to support our journey of hope.
So those were a couple that I remember being really
big events.
Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm going to skip around a little bit.
You mentioned you meet with the soon-to-be governor
and you didn't really have the time of day
or he didn't have the time of day.
And here we are talking about the death penalty
not being a thing in Virginia anymore.
Not too, too much later.
What's that been like to kind of see that shift happen?
Let's see it go from, we can't even get a bill out of committee
to we did it, the death penalty is it, well,
which what's that been like?
I mean, it's been an incredible thing
to watch that process and see different pieces
of it being chipped away from different angles,
not all as part of legislation.
But in other ways, where prosecutors
stopped seeking capital punishment in cases
where in the past they probably would have.
So watching it become less and less of a thing,
but then to have this year happen with Governor Northam,
suddenly standing up and saying, I want the legislature
to abolish the death penalty this year was really kind
of surprising, but it does demonstrate, too,
the importance of advocating at the local level
and working on elections.
If we hadn't flipped Virginia and a lot of the seats
in both houses of the legislature, this wouldn't have happened.
But people have worked really hard in the last couple
of elections to make sure that seats have gone blue
so that this was able to then happen sooner than some
of us would have predicted, but what a great thing.
Oh my gosh, to have all that work finally come to fruition
to see that happen the first Southern state,
hopefully that's just the first of many that will come after us.
But yeah, it's been an incredible thing to be part of.
What was that moment like you kind of mentioned?
Oh my gosh, when you heard or you saw that death
family is done in Virginia, what was that like emotionally,
like all that work paying off?
It was very emotional.
And I was on the phone with my daughter at the same time.
We were watching the livestream.
I mean, that was the thing that was so hard,
being the pandemic time still, and the legislature
was meeting in such a way that we couldn't actually be there,
because I think I had always envisioned
being in the gallery and actually watching that vote take place
and being able to cheer and really express that emotion
with other people who have all worked together for such a long time
to make that happen.
So it was a little odd that had happened
in these circumstances this year, but just incredible.
I mean, I know that I had tears.
And just so amazing to be able to share lots of phone calls
for the rest of that day with various people
I have worked with over the years and just kind of still
in some ways and disbelief that it actually happened.
So yeah, it was great, very emotional.
That's pretty awesome.
I'm gonna switch gears a little bit.
W, you've touched on this some.
So thinking directly about VADP, what is, you know,
in the 20 years you've been associated with the organization?
What's impressed you about the organization,
about the people, if there's anything specific,
that sticks out?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I made some really good friends along the way
and I think the people are the thing, you know,
that most matter, you know, over time
when you're doing this work to know that, you know,
you have people that you can trust, you know,
to show up and do the work and, you know,
communicate well together, you know,
we did spend a lot of time in person actually having meetings,
you know, in the early time that I was involved
and that, you know, kind of shifted a little bit over time.
But I mentioned Paul Blackburn, he died last year, you know,
we would always look forward to seeing each other
at the annual VADP luncheon, you know,
so the last time we saw each other was such a happy reunion.
We took pictures together, you know,
John McDermott was another one and Nova, I mean,
it was really great to get to know Jerry Givens,
the former executioner and to have him become an ally,
you know, in part of our organization and movement
and a speaker, you know, and I mentioned Terry Steinberg,
who is a very close friend, you know,
as a result of all this work together,
and, you know, she's been part of the journey of hope
and, you know, has done a lot of that too
and we always spend time at the fast and vigil
at the Supreme Court every year, you know.
But yeah, those are some of the people, you know,
who have really been near and dear to me, you know,
over the course of time and of course,
I worked with Jack Payton Travers
and we're still very close.
Michael Stone, you know, has been great to get to know
and our little baseball connection
that we always talk about too.
But that's what's fun about it when you're dealing
with such a serious issue to be able to have
some other personal connections
that you can be a little bit lighter with too.
You know, have fun with that.
So yeah, people are definitely the key part of it for sure.
Sure.
You mentioned, I think I missed his name,
the executioner, Peter.
Jerry Gibbons.
Jerry Gibbons being part of BADP.
What, like, what has that been like?
So, I mean, it was just incredible to have Jerry decide
that he wanted to speak out against the death penalty
from having been directly involved
with executing people and seeing it up close and personal
and being the person in charge of the process
to then have him say, this is wrong.
And, you know, I've been carrying this around for years.
He died a couple of years ago.
But yes, to have him become a person who advocated for that.
And it's interesting there are some other people
who've worked as part of the execution team
in other states to have, you know, decided they have
to speak out against it.
So, he's not alone.
But I think that just illustrates all the collateral damage.
You know, that's just one example.
But the people who work in the prison system,
who have to be part of that of killing another human being,
I mean, talk about trauma.
You know, that's absolutely the worst.
And a lot of them have decided to speak out about it.
So, yeah, Jerry was definitely a gift, you know,
to have him come forward like that.
Yeah, I'm sure that's really powerful.
Mm-hmm.
You really already answered just like, you know,
it's significant memories.
If there's something that you didn't mention,
kind of end the abolition movement that sticks out to you,
you can share that if not, we can just keep moving forward.
I mean, what I had written as my note was just thinking
about the importance of elections too.
And I think sometimes people don't necessarily make
that connection with how important it is
to be involved in supporting candidates
and making them aware of issues that are important to us
and finding out where they stand on these things
and educating people at that level, you know,
who are representing us.
So, you know, that's definitely a part of it.
That's why we did the lobbying days
to try to educate people in the legislature
that this is an issue people care about.
And they were shocked a lot of the time
that anybody would actually be setting aside time
to advocate to get rid of the death penalty
in this state, you know, particularly.
So, I think that's definitely part of, you know,
what I think of as being really important
and what helped the momentum that brought it together
this year, you know, at this particular time.
Sure, did you find, you know, this is gonna be
a big general question.
Did you find legislators, you know,
once they got over the surprise that people were opposed
to the death penalty, did you find them receptive
to alternatives, to hearing you out?
I mean, I'm sure there were some who didn't, you know,
want to talk about it at all, you know, the death penalty
is we have for reason, whatever that is.
Did you find though, once legislators knew
that people were opposed to it,
that they were ready to move on it?
It has still taken a lot of effort.
People felt like they needed some kind of cover, if you will,
you know, to be able to support anti-death penalty
legislation.
And I mean, quite frankly, we were disappointed
with governors who expressed personal belief
that the death penalty should be abolished,
but yet would let executions happen.
You know, that happened over the course of years
and was really disappointing, you know.
Okay, if that's your belief, then how about you do
something about it?
So I think that's why it was in some sense,
sort of surprising to have Northam come out,
the way he did early this year,
and just say it's time for us to be done,
but I think that was the culmination in he had a lot of cover,
if you will, if that's the right term to use
after everything that happened last summer,
you know, the death of George Floyd,
and really taking a look at racism and, you know,
systemic racism in our country,
has made a lot of people pause and take a serious look
at what's actually going on,
because everything we know about how the death penalty
has applied, it's definitely, you know,
part of a racist system.
So, you know, that whole change in the culture,
if you will, you know, that's happened over the last year or so,
that has forced us in some cases to really look at it, you know,
and the fact that we have elected people
to the legislature just in recent years,
in the last two years and four years, you know,
who are willing to think about it,
where in the past, it was pretty rough going, you know,
people were just like, you know,
you're a small number here.
That's not what my constituents are telling me,
you know, people actually do support the death penalty,
and in some cases they were right.
I mean, surveys at the time have, you know,
showed that and have shifted to,
in 20 years there has been a shift.
So, it's been a lot of work to educate people
and, you know, make that happen,
and then, unfortunately, in some sense,
the nightmare that happened last summer
kind of brought us to this point,
and, you know, that particular case,
you know, just became such a significant, you know,
visible picture of what was actually happening, you know,
in our system, but there were so many leading up to that
that, you know, I think that was just finally where people
said, okay, and if we really need to pause
and take a look at what's going on here, so,
thankfully that worked out well for us in Virginia.
Yeah, a lot of people have mentioned last summer,
and just kind of all that in tailed,
as probably a catalyst for a lot of the things
we've seen, at least in Virginia now.
So, it's always interesting to hear what people think
has kind of, you know, pushed some of this stuff
to the forefront.
And yet, interesting, the gun reform is still
such a huge issue here.
People still want their guns.
Yeah, we'll see how they move on that in the future.
I don't really think, I don't know how long we've been doing,
I don't know that I have much else to ask,
other than that last question.
Is there anything else that you want to say?
Is there, you know, something that you feel like
I should have asked that you want to touch on?
If not, you know, we can go into that last question,
but can't take a second to think about it if you need to.
I mean, I think that's covered a lot of what I had thought about,
you know, hearing about this stuff.
All right, so this last question,
what would you like to say to the VADP supporters
who will gather to celebrate the abolition victory
on November 21st?
We can talk for as long as the shortage you like,
doesn't really matter.
But I would like for you to look a little bit more.
Okay, so I think I would like to say two things to people,
and that is, first of all, thank you to everyone
who was involved in any way in the work toward abolition
of the deaf penalty in Virginia,
because it has taken armies of people to make this happen.
So, you know, contacting legislators and writing letters
and talking to people in whatever way attending meetings
and speeches and lots of different things the people have done
in supporting Virginians for alternatives to the deaf penalty,
too, as obviously a big one.
So thank you, thank you so much for the involvement of everyone
in this movement.
And the second thing, I guess I want to say,
is that the work isn't over because we still have lots to do
to work on abolishing the deaf penalty at the federal level,
and in other states.
You know, we're the first of the southern states,
but there are a whole lot of other ones out there,
and other states and other parts of the country.
So, looking at that is definitely something that we can continue
to work on and support as well as criminal justice reform,
or as people are now referring to it, legal justice reform,
part of the system, there's so much that still needs to change.
So, I mean, we've said for years working together
that abolishing the deaf penalty is in some sense just the tip of the iceberg.
So, we've accomplished that, and that's incredible,
but now we have lots more work still to do.
So, I look forward to continuing to work on that.
That was great.
