and at exactly the right moment and partially the faith communities that came together in a new way, in a powerful way.
And you and Dale, Michael, know better than anyone, whether I'm right or wrong, but that was my impression from standing on the corner was that those two factors just made the difference.
Who said Joe?
Well, um, I've been doing a lot of interviews and so I credited a couple things.
But first of all, Joe, great to see you. Glad you could join us.
All right. Can you all hear me? Yeah.
Okay. Cool.
No, Jared, Dan, Joe, Jared, Teta, Joe,
just a hell of a friend of Marie Deans.
Oh, there's a lot of all of us now.
Yes, I believe those two is.
Oh, well, I basically, in addition to all the organizing work we've been doing for the past six years, I think there are two main reasons why we achieve victory this year.
Number one is the Black Lives Matter movement that the murderal George Floyd and the tremendous outpouring of public support all across the racial divide and class divide for criminal justice reform and for racial justice.
Let a really big power under legislators who, while they supported abolition, it was like not a priority and it suddenly became a priority.
That was number one.
And then I agree with you wholeheartedly, Jane.
By the way, Sister Helen and Joe, that's Jane Barnard our vice chair of the board.
Hey, Jane, Professor emeritus from William and Mary Law School.
Right.
Anyway, number two was the governor.
Yeah, the junior pod boy called me about six o'clock a few weeks ago, he's sitting down.
The governor is going to endorse abolition in his state of the Commonwealth address.
Oh, ladies and gentlemen, that only happened, I think, because of pressure from Black legislators and Black leaders who made it a priority for this session.
And that, you know, quite frankly, the governor's Black face scandal.
Yeah, that he is deeply remorseful and that he wants to burnish his legacy in terms of racial equity.
He came to see that abolition was a part of that legacy.
And that genuine criminal justice reform in Virginia would mean abolition of the death panel.
Yeah, no, I agree with you, Jane, that was the governor, but it was also a huge assist from the Black Lives Matter movement.
And also our new partnership with the Virginia Interfaith Center for Public Policy.
Laquisha Cook is a superstar and four months, she mobilized over 300 Black clergy members or death penalty abolition.
She organized five.
She should be on hand.
Well, you know, this was a board celebration.
We're going to do another world.
This is the first thing, hopefully.
Yeah, but the key is to super, so you organized five prayer vigils and executioner lynching sites around Virginia on the King holiday or the week of the King holiday.
And I think that also was a huge difference.
So governor Black Lives Matter and Laquisha Cook.
Wow.
This dance.
Michael had a little.
You know, it's very, very, very.
It's just, it's just bizarre how something.
So sort of so random.
So related to any of the substance of the issue like his Blackface scandal.
Yeah, ends up.
Implewencing the politics of the day and creating the atmosphere in which something like this could happen.
I mean, it's just bizarre.
It is.
I mean, the truth is, the community has been organized against the death penalty forever.
You know, I mean, the Virginia Interface Center was fighting for abolition 30 years ago.
But it just was the, it was this perfect confluence of events, everything coming together.
And I thought more of them statement was so strong in, in the state of the Commonwealth address.
I mean, he, he left no doubt that this was a major priority.
That's so good.
Nothing like a little guilt.
Keep you going, you know, get your hands up.
Not to mention, uh, so I don't feel like a true Catholic.
And also she, she lost the things that you should say.
But you think the importance of African Americans, I mean, with Laquisha and that.
Did you say she organized 300 Black clergy or 300 clergy?
300 Black clergy, five, uh, prayer vigils in four months.
And, uh, just as a superstar.
And I see John Tucker has joined us.
John, we have a couple special guests.
Even North, I think you know, sister.
Somewhere I on the road, uh, I think in the West Fender Richmond.
Very good.
I'm talking to him.
I'm really who's a new board member.
Okay.
Great.
John, glad you're the end on this.
Joining the Justin time for it to shut down.
I'd like to say my, I'd like to say my joining the board put us over the time.
Absolutely.
Well, well, oh man, I'm just thinking all the times I've been in Virginia with that Virginia for alternatives and definitely steady steady.
And then you get a great, then you get a great, you got a constellation of events and then nothing.
So they convert.
I mean, here's the governor with a little girl with the black face.
Here's black lives matter here.
Next thing you know, 2019 elections.
Do you think Trump prosecutors and then he'd never call you back.
To get your response to the nonsense that they've spouted.
But he is stuck with the death penalty issue for decades and has basically given us very positive coverage.
Yeah, he does a really, he really does a good job.
And just to give you a sense of how important Frank is to this and other criminal justice issues.
I had a conversation several years ago about another case in which I was talking to the Commonwealth attorney in Powhatan County.
And the name Frank Green came up and he hated it.
Yeah, because the ocean is.
He thought he thought yeah, the D.O.C. people hated because they think his articles, which are really balanced.
I mean, one of the reasons we get upset with him from time to time is because he tries to tell both sides.
Right.
The nerve.
And you know, he's a good journalist.
He is.
You know what I wonder?
I was with Joe O'Dell in 97 when he was executed.
I don't know if any of you remember that.
He was an innocent man.
And all the Italians got involved in the case.
The governor got 10,000 faxes.
They buried him in Italy.
They shipped his body over and Joe O'Dell was the occasion for me to have a die.
I logged directly with Pope John Paul II and helped change Catholic teaching.
But he was an innocent man.
Joe O'Dell and it was terrible in Virginia.
I mean, you were killing people right in the left of Virginia.
It was so bad.
And, but and do you know they Virginia executed Joe.
Del.
He had Barry Shaq willing to do DNA evidence testing free.
They refused to let it happen.
They execute him and they destroyed the DNA evidence so it can never be tested.
Right.
That was Virginia in the old days.
And now this is the new day.
Well, that's what say girl at the end of the day was DNA.
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah, DNA.
Right.
You know, we've talked about the key factors in this, this season's success.
And again, I'm new to the, to the territory.
But I know that that Michael you sick Rob on some prosecutors to, well, you know,
get them to weigh in and Rob, no names, please.
But can you talk about your conversations with the prosecutors?
Sure.
I think, you know, Kelsen Bonnet, who was doing this work last year before I,
we kind of swapped places.
I came from back from the Midwest and he went out to the Midwest.
And I took over and he had really laid the groundwork with a lot of the,
this new group of progressive prosecutors.
And you know, there are a lot of them are just staunch abolitionists.
They just don't think that Virginia should be in the business of killing people.
And, and then we got, um,
after George Floyd and some of the other events that,
that Michael mentioned, the constellation, um, it just, they, a bunch more flipped,
like, like five or six more just, just fell, um, with the group.
And suddenly we had like nearly half of the Commonwealth represented by Commonwealth
attorneys who supported abolition.
And so I got them to sign our letter.
And then they, they put out their own letter.
And, um, after all of that, then the attorney general joined, joined in,
which was nice.
And then Richmond Commonwealth attorney came on after refusing to sign a couple of times
before saw which way the wind was blowing.
And on the winning side of the glorious, glorious, wonderful.
Let them join when the wind blows their way.
It's okay.
Okay.
Better lengthen ever.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, that's the way it builds.
It's so good that, yeah, I've been reading about that progressive, you know,
uh, DA's, a prosecutor's not going for it anymore.
I mean, yeah, that's wonderful though.
You just, we just took on a capital case last, uh, about two weeks ago.
And before we could even get our first motions filed, the Commonwealth
attorney said 11 to the judge, a five-page letter,
asking them to take the death penalty off the table.
Well, that's fantastic.
Excellent.
No fantastic.
And so we moved you're on the case, Joe.
Say it again.
They probably heard you were on the case.
Right.
That's, that's what did it.
No.
I don't know if that did or not, but I'm glad they took it all.
Yes.
I don't know that.
Well, the nice thing about this bill is that it takes the two men off death
road and gives them life sentences.
And I don't think any bill that's been passed in the modern era to abolish
a death penalty has ever been retroactive.
So I think that's the first.
Is that right, sister Helen?
I think so.
I think the people that, you know, but I think that's true.
It's hard.
I know I don't think so.
I think there's at least one other state.
There's at least one other thing that did this.
They did it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, Joe, we'll go with you.
And then the other thing that it does is that it mandates that nobody who's
currently accused of a capital crime can be sentenced to death.
Oh, that's good.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's really an amazing piece of legislation.
Michael, can you clarify something for me?
Because I saw a different reporting on this throughout the day.
And I haven't kept track.
I originally saw that the house and Senate passed different bills.
And then I heard from a pretty good source that they had passed the same bill
or had done something and now it was the same.
So is it, is it the same?
Yeah.
What happened was that the Washington Post reporter got it wrong.
Uh, well, the wording.
And that happened was she was carrying the Senate bill with the original house bill.
And what had happened is Mike Mullin conformed his bill to be identical to the Senate bill.
And she was looking at the wrong bill.
So both identical and that it should be just a procedural matter of getting you to the house
of the Senate after crossover the day to pass the other side's bill and gross it
and then send it to the governor.
And then the only thing I'm nervous about is wanting to make sure that the governor's staff
doesn't want to get their fingerprints on this by, you know, tinkering with the language.
Because that can always blow up in your face.
But hopefully we read a sign that he's been part, apparently, of the whole
dialogue about the wording of the bill and that the last amendment was
some language from the attorney general.
So hopefully everyone is on board already and that there won't be any
amendment language for the veto session.
That's great.
That's really good.
Well, the wave has hit the door.
Well, I was such a thrilled to have you.
I was just howling and throwing this so avidly.
I've been following it avidly.
And you know, I've been really interested too.
The role of African Americans, if y'all are familiar, this is,
it's called the Magnificat and it's the song of marrying and
and it's that God has pulled down the rich from their thrones and exalted the lowly.
So aren't my wall.
I have a picture.
There was a great cover in the New York of Trump.
Flat on his face at the bottom of his escalator.
The golden escalator that he descended to run for better.
He's flat on his face at the end and and pictured right above him is stacey Abrams.
So I got her elevated up there.
And I got.
God has pulled down the rich from their thrones and exalted the lowly.
So I was very interested to read about the interfaith with led by LaKisha
and the role of African Americans, which definitely has played a role in Georgia
and the runoff.
It's just African Americans getting in there.
I just I just think that's wonderful part of your story.
And I, Christina, I want to put Christina on the spot if you don't mind.
Christina is our board chair.
She's a capital former capital defense attorney.
She wrote a powerful, powerful op-ed about being a capital defense attorney of color,
representing people of color in corporate rooms.
Do you want to just share a little bit about lots of reflections about that?
Yeah.
I just found that op-ed just very moving.
No, and absolutely.
I think what everyone's been saying about this constellation of events,
I think, and the pandemic, because people are at home and have to pay attention
because these issues have obviously been ongoing forever.
But yeah, I mean, I as a black woman attorney doing definitely work.
There's not many of us anyway.
And then it gets going into these venues where you can feel and you can truly feel,
it's hard to describe, but you can feel it.
And that's from me as like a professional who's sitting at the table.
So I can only imagine what my clients are feeling and their families.
And so much of capital defense work is really just spending time
with your clients family and building this mitigation investigation.
And you just hear these stories of multigenerational, racial abuse that's been going on,
you know, for centuries and just hearing that same story over and over again.
And so it's, and I think I'm glad that we talked about Governor Northam's blackface scandal
because I think for that we wouldn't be where we are.
I mean, so yeah, it's an amazing moment that we're in.
I'm glad that we seized the opportunity.
And when I say we, the Commonwealth and general, just people to take it in the right direction.
I also think all these federal executions, the 13 people that were murdered in six months
was horrific.
Just so much brutality and just to have this opportunity to be the first Southern state
to correct something that is so tied to racial prejudice.
You know, everyone's familiar with Brian Stephenson's work with EJI and just tying
lynchings to capital punishment.
And it's really just a legalization of that.
And so it's, it's pretty profound.
And it's, it's amazing.
I mean, I've been practicing for 11 years now.
And, you know, Virginia, I mean, we, I'm speaking to the choir here,
but in Virginia in the 90s, even Virginia 15 years ago, the reason why prosecutors aren't bringing these cases
because they're not waiting.
I mean, we have these capital defender offices.
We have advocates that are trained now.
They know how to resolve these cases.
And so it really is a constellation of events that I think has brought us to this tremendous moment.
I'm just glad that we did the right thing, you know, we just have to leave it that way.
Whenever I'm interviewed, I talk about how we would never even be having this conversation
if the stellar work of those capital defense offices haven't prevented that sense in 10 years.
I mean, it's just truly, truly extraordinary.
I, I was sweating bullets during the deliberation of,
you know,
a multiple cases of the Prince William case where the man killed his spouse,
killed a police officer or a young woman on a first day of duty,
wounded two other police officers in Prince William County,
the king of death penalty jurisdictions, life in prison,
didn't withy county killing a state trooper, a senseless homicide,
but a severely mentally ill man, life in prison,
quadruple homicides in Petersburg and in Newport, news, life in prison.
Just stellar work by those capital defenders.
No, you know, I feel like I've been the conductor for the past six years of an extraordinary orchestra.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's my turn, honey.
How many people are better than those?
No.
Here's an appropriate, tears of joy are appropriate.
I mean, it's huge.
You know, it goes partly for us back to the commitment of the Virginia Bar Association strangely enough,
to put on trainings, free trainings for lawyers,
which they love to go to because they get a pile of CLE credits.
That's how I take care of mine for the whole year.
And people go to the trainings and they learn how to defend them number one.
And you have to never go to trial in one that you can't get to death sentence if you don't go to trial.
Now, man, and the commitment of the VBA in combination with Washington, Lee's clearinghouse to put those on,
you know, created a quality of representation, not just, not just talking about the capital defender offices.
And it's really hugely important to just practitioners who learned what they should be doing.
And I that just sort of changed the results and prosecutors as a result didn't bring as many.
They got pled out.
And when they didn't go to trial, you know, there were an awful lot of life sentences that came back and so.
So it's not a, I'm not a huge debate of the Virginia Bar Association.
I know I've got to give him a crads on this one.
Right. I agree. Hey, Jerry, I'm glad you mentioned the capital case, case clearinghouse in Washington and Lee because there's another individual who deserves a good,
a lot of credit for where we are. And that's David Brooke.
Absolutely.
I mean, we're in for David Brooke.
Let me tell you, is that guy is amazing.
Oh, yes, he is.
Again, working with David. He was still down in South Carolina.
Yeah. Where is he now?
He's not.
He's in one.
No case. Actually, he's representing one of the 9-11 defendants in Guantanamo.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
He really helped bring the whole thing down when they see their up against him.
And he's already, you know, so much.
And COVID titan them in Guantanamo and they are on their fourth judge with these stupid military.
Of course, it may bring in and then Biden coming in.
Because I know some of the lawyers working really closely. It is so terrible in Guantanamo.
And it may bring it down and COVID.
You can't bring people out. You know, to have witnesses or anything. So.
COVID is an unseen.
Sometimes gift. People at home paying attention. Look at that eight minute 46 seconds.
And you know, you know, you have to pay attention to get the focus and.
It's amazing. It's amazing. But you know, Virginia is just dear in my heart.
Because that struggle has gone on so long.
And the first one from the Confederacy to shut it down. Y'all.
It's just a beacon of hope for everybody.
Amen.
Amen to that.
And I think it's a great opportunity to have a good time.
Capital of the Confederacy. Let's hope the others follow the Capitol.
It's interesting.
In my interviews today. I mean, I think I did six or seven today.
About this. And.
And I really talk about how.
I think I'm going to make it a good good. And I hope.
We'll be the start of a series of dominoes and I don't think Kentucky is far away.
I'm abolishing the death penalty. I don't think Tennessee is very far away.
And Laura Porter is convinced Georgia in four or five years.
Could be ready to abolish the death penalty as well.
That would be great.
And this year Wyoming is in play.
talk. So I mean, I joke that you know, Wyoming and Utah, you got to look on the rocks to find Democrats.
And one of those states votes to abolish the death penalty, it's going to be really, really, really important and significant moving forward.
And so good. So good.
Talk to y'all. Mike, if they talk to y'all, is anybody talk to you about lighting up the Roman Coliseum to celebrate Virginia?
Actually, they do that. They do that when the state abolishes the death penalty. They light up the oldest symbol of eight killing the Roman Coliseum in real.
Yes. Does anybody talk to you about that?
Actually, today, um, Laura Porter said an email about that. And maybe it was dirt.
It was last night during our twice a week strategy called Laura Porter from the Ackerman project. Talked about that.
She's on it, huh? To get in touch with them. She's on it.
Yeah, it sounds like it that happens is that the same the same the Judeo society in the state that abolished to come to Rome for a wide of the Coliseum.
Wow.
And that that sometimes, you know, a representative of the state coalition goes along with.
Yeah.
No, hope it will be you.
So we'll see if that happens. I mean, with COVID, you know, it might end up being sort of virtual.
No, but we need to put it. We need to put it over so we can charter a point.
Hey, that works for me.
Work for me.
We can find a lot of generous donor to.
Right. Well, I've got to work with that saying.
Yes, of course. Just a little medium size playing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, somebody else, we have to socially distance.
Somebody knows very it'll be medium size.
Somebody just texted me about the Senator Tim King.
And during our call yesterday.
And then we were in the last couple of months, so I think it was a really good thing.
I think that the fact that the big news was anticipating today's victory saying we need to get some op-eds and national newspapers celebrating this historic significance of Virginia.
I mean, the death penalty.
So Tim and I go way back.
I knew Tim before he first ran for office.
Our kids.
You know, we're in Boy Scouts together.
Two of our kids were in dance program together.
I was a board member when my wife, her fan was working there.
So we got lots of family ties and he.
Did a fundraiser for us last July a virtual cocktail hour and he spoke at our virtual luncheon.
So I emailed Tim saying, hey,
would you be interested in doing an op-ed, you know, highlighting your death penalty experience and talking about Virginia and it's.
You know, this moment and he, he 10 minutes later, he emails me back saying, I'm on board.
I've copied my communications director and chief of staff.
Send me some talking points and I'm going to work on it over the weekend.
And I want it in the New York Times next week.
And.
It's great.
We're hoping that in the New York Times, Tim will be riding a kick ass op-ed about Virginia abolishing the death penalty.
That's wonderful.
And that also Lara and her team is going to work on asking Brian Stevenson and Bernice King, the daughter of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
to ride op-eds for different newspapers about the significance of Virginia abolishing the death penalty.
Yes, that's wonderful.
You know, and don't underestimate what this does in the hearts and minds of the American public because you know that's who I've been working with for these past 35 years.
Most people have never reflected deeply on the death penalty at all. They're not wedded to it at all as my big discovery.
And as this wave bills and one part of the wave hits the shore and then it bills don't underestimate what can happen in the hearts and minds of the people all around.
So it's part of really a national movement.
It's from a point of view of faith is a kingdom of God moment.
Big time.
And people aren't there and people are good. They just haven't they haven't reflected deeply and they were made to be so afraid with all this law and order stuff.
You know, so it's a moment, y'all. It's really a moment and it's just worth celebrating.
I'm going to give Dale a chance to talk. I don't know if your internet access is good enough to be able to, but I want to ask you to kind of share your thoughts or any stories that you might want to share with folks.
Dale is for sister, Helen Dale has been our field director for three and a half years.
And he has been just doing stellar work building support among libertarians and Republicans for that kind of the abolition.
It's Dale who which is the last thing.
Dale wrong field.
Okay.
It was just terrific.
And he's a great writer to
wrote a book on history of the state.
A pro-lific ride.
The 100 people, first 100 people executed Virginia's electric.
First 100 Lord.
So I had Dale.
Yeah, and it just scratched the surface.
You know, when I first took this job in 2017.
The first place I drove to was field director was down to Martinsville, Virginia.
And I didn't know a soul down there.
I had a drove down there and I checked into the first of many budget-minded motels.
And just started knocking on doors.
I literally went cold calling in Martinsville.
Hi, my name is Dale.
I'm with Virginians for Alternatives to the death penalty.
I'd like to come talk to your organization about the death penalty.
Got a few positive polite comments, but a lot of closed doors.
I kept doing it.
And I kept doing it.
And I kept doing it.
And I would go all over Virginia to targeted districts that Michael in the board
had decided would be most beneficial for me to go to.
And I just kept doing it.
And pretty soon people started inviting me in.
And I started doing presentations.
And I did since I've started this job.
I'm estimating.
I've done about 300 and some odd group presentations.
And I've done about 300 and some odd group presentations.
And I've done about 300 and some odd group presentations.
And signed up a couple of hundred new people to the ADP's mailing list
until the pandemic hit.
And then everything came to a screeching halt.
But what I discovered is exactly sister Helen, what you said.
Is that people don't think about the death penalty.
They take it for granted.
And if they do think about it, they think of it in theory only.
Oh, well, in theory, it works.
But it's only when you start peeling away all those layers of the theory
and get to the rotten core.
When the people really realize, hey, you know what?
This is a mess.
And we need to stop doing it.
It's got no place in 21st century.
So it's that's exactly it was just a matter of opening eyes and getting people to listen.
And it took a lot of persistence.
But I just kept going.
I'm not one to give up.
I used to sell insurance door to door.
So I don't give up very easily.
And so wonderful.
It was been quite an experience to be able to just travel around Virginia and do this.
And meeting these wonderful people and changing minds, changing hearts and changing minds.
It's been a real honor.
Well, good to do this.
Man, that is tough work, man.
I did it a little Louise, if I write in a book.
So I had a little better access, but not can only those cold doors for that is really heroic work.
Well, you got to do what you got to do.
And that's what it took.
Yeah.
What job?
I said in Martin's bill of all places.
Yeah, Joe.
Yeah, no kidding.
Martin's bill.
Bill, you got such a unique perspective.
I want to hear you what your thoughts about this, you know, is somebody who was wrongfully convicted and spent.
Yeah, what happy your life in hell.
Yeah, pretty much 40 years and in Virginia's hell.
Six months in Utah's hell and six months in Illinois and a year in Illinois is Virginia, seven years of Utah.
They actually put me in a.
Who was it?
Gilmore's old death penalty cell.
Oh, come on.
Really.
That's that's what I put now when I first got there.
And they made it a big, made a big show of telling me that's where I was at.
I don't think it exists anymore.
I shut it down.
But yeah.
You know,
I came into this, you know, really before Marie got there and then, then after Marie came to Virginia and started the Virginia Coalition.
Yeah, I was a messed up kid then.
And you know, she pretty much snatched me up by the back of my neck, smacked me around a little bit and stuck my face in the law books.
But I think people tend to forget, you know, back then.
You know, we had guys on the road that didn't happen the attorneys.
And when I tried to recruit attorneys and we re try to recruit her to attorneys, we had federal judges try to recruit attorneys attorneys would turn them down.
And I was having to file habeas corpus petition file for stays of execution.
Well, well, it's incredible.
I mean, I think people out here to chair.
And, you know, and that's what brought about the case, Geron, Tonto versus Murray.
And Earl Washington was was a lead plaintiff in that case. I was a straw plaintiff because I had an attorney.
Jerry Sturkin was representing me back then.
And anyone better.
Yeah.
Eventually Steve North Steve North came along, but Jerry Jerry was all with Jerry with.
Jerry was a fighter. I mean, Jerry.
You know, when it came to the chair, my case of part, he was tearing her apart between him, dig burr.
A lot of folks forget. Initially, I was represented by the end of the LACP legal defense fund.
I was a little bit of a bad person back then. But, you know, Earl's case.
In the 80s. And again, now, you know, many of the legislators were talking about Earl's case.
They didn't. None of them could get the facts right.
But they knew that Earl had been exonerated.
Yeah.
And a lot of them didn't know that Earl didn't have an attorney had an execution date set.
And it took a federal judge.
Here in Richmond.
Jerry was lead counsel in the case after I fired Paul Weiss a couple of times.
But that brought us the right to counsel in a backhanded way.
You know, we won the case after two day trial.
The state appealed that we lost it in the four circuit.
Wanted back in the four circuit. They appealed it up to the Supreme Court.
And the Supreme Court came down divided.
With justice, Kennedy, right in a separate opinion.
And, you know, I still don't know Jerry's take on that. But, you know, we had four judges that said it was, it was wrong to execute.
Anybody without an attorney for justice has said no. It was perfectly fine.
And one justice said, well, I agree with with the four who said, you know, it's not unconstitutional.
Because the guys on the road had an attorney.
Well, Earl did. Earl got one of the last minute.
And a volunteer at that.
But he also said, if anybody of a genuine executed without an attorney, he would vote the other way.
And that forced legislature to come in and change the law.
So, you know, Earl.
You know, Earl has been there.
You know, at the cost of this.
He, you know, his case forced a lot of issues brought a lot of awareness.
And then when we proved his innocence, I mean, you know, nobody could argue with that.
It's.
But, you know, I started out at the old state pentatentiary on sprang street.
Enrichment at the old house.
And I was like, you know, that place is no longer there.
They tore it down.
There's a little plaque out there.
But, you know, I ride by it often.
And just to stop and look.
And, you know, I think about the guys that were executed.
Not just in Virginia, but everywhere.
But in Virginia, it was personal one because I was there.
I broke red with these guys.
I sit there at eight with them.
You know, we played basketball together.
You know, we argued.
And I filed briefs in most of their cases when they didn't have attorneys.
You know, so when I saw the news today, you know, I just stopped.
I stopped what I was doing in the office.
And.
And I was like, you know, this, this time of the year.
This month, particularly my PTSD starts taking in.
And today it was like.
It brought a sense of closure to me.
You know, but it did.
It only happened because people cared.
A lot of good people.
Some of them.
And I was like, well, I'm not going to be a bad person.
I'm not going to be a bad person.
I'm not going to be a bad person.
But people never gave up.
People kept pushing and pushing and pushing.
And, and, and wouldn't be silent about it.
And if I've learned nothing else, that's what it takes.
If you want to bring about change.
You don't wait on the next person.
You get out there and you start shouting.
Yeah.
But it's been accomplished.
Yeah.
Now, you know, Mike has put himself out of work.
It's just a really good job of timing his retirement.
Yeah, serious.
So, let me just want to mention a couple.
One thing, number one.
You mentioned the, the plaque at the side of the open
open.
The only reason that is there is because of Dale freaking
Brumfield.
He's the one who made that happen.
He raised the money to pay for that damn thing.
You tell us about that.
Well, I walked up when I was researching my book.
I walked the property twice.
Like, and where's the historical marker?
And they said, they're what?
Well, there's not one.
I was just talking about the history of the department.
And so I started shooting off emails to various departments and
agencies in Virginia, kind of nasty, not really nasty,
but like I, I smelled a conspiracy.
I said, oh, they don't want to remember the penitentiary.
That's why there's no marker there.
And when I talked to the department of historic resources,
they said, well, the reason there's not one there is because
nobody ever applied for one.
Do you want to apply for one?
I said, well, yeah.
So I did.
I applied for it.
I was just talking about the sponsor has to pay for it.
But I was, it was, I raised the money to pay for it.
And we put it up there.
So it's there.
So I'm very proud of that marker.
By the way.
And it's right.
And it's right at the spot where when I, when I came out from the,
from the.
Death House when James Brock was.
My client was about to be executed and I came out.
Update.
What was.
And I came out sort of in the middle of Spring Street and you had a walk
up to a velvet ear and up a velvet ear, which is I think is where the marker is.
Isn't it.
Dale.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's where that's where the crab was standing with the fri the nigger.
Signed.
So it was.
Yeah.
It was.
No.
An extraordinary spot there.
And it needs to be upgraded.
That's fabulous.
So glad you did that.
That.
Dale.
This is a Jimmy.
I watched you speak during the VICCP prayer death penalty prayer vigil.
That was one of the sites of the five that Michael mentioned earlier.
And for you to tell that story.
Right.
As part of that prayer vigil was so powerful.
And to me, it said here's, you know, the actions of one person.
What can happen?
So when you take all these like-minded people together.
And you know, change was inevitable.
But it was just just an incredible moment.
Another interesting aside.
Thank you.
Yeah.
It was.
There was one other interesting aside a while back.
I gave a talk.
At one of the colleges.
Hampton Sydney.
Hampton City College.
And.
Judge Moon was there.
I don't know.
You asked it to court.
Judge Moon was there.
Norman Moon.
And Jerry, you may remember this.
But Norman is.
Was the first judge to grant.
Earl's habeas case.
Right.
Yep.
And he was overturned.
Yeah.
He was convinced that Earl's case should have been overturned early on.
And.
And he was.
And he said,
he said,
he said,
he said,
he said,
he asked me if I remember that I said, you know,
I'm glad you guys never gave up.
He believed that he was innocent.
And.
Then he said,
you know why you didn't get your full pardon.
And I said, no, he said they don't want to pay you any money.
So you got it.
You got it anyhow.
You know,
you got it.
You got it anyhow.
Yeah.
So.
It's.
But he was,
you know, he,
he was talking about abolition then when I was talking to him and he said, yeah,
we've got to do away with the death penalty.
And.
And I told him, I said, I thought it's coming.
I didn't know when, but I said it's coming.
But he was.
He's also the judge that gave her all the money.
When you're in jail so in front of.
In front of Moon Jerry.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, he's another one that needs to be remembered in this because he, you know,
he did an unpopular thing.
At an unpopular time.
Stuck by his guns.
And he was.
He was a very, very, very hard.
Hard court overruled him.
So let me say that Joe.
At some point, and Joe's habeas, I, I was co counsel played a really secondary role to Dick
for one of the great.
The capital litigators in the country.
And.
Joe's case.
We were, we were seeking.
Talking about certain.
And the issue was quite the question of competency in whether Joe had been competent or not.
And we were having this three way discussion of Joe and Dick and I.
And about how to present the argument.
And Joe proceeded to go through a discussion of all the justices on the course.
And what, what you should do in order to appeal to them.
And specifically how we could get judge justice of Connor on board.
And Joe made his evaluation of how to do that.
And there was this sort of pause for a second.
And then Dick said, not bad for a guy who's incompetent.
We had that discussion again in Earl's case when we lost the four circuit.
And, uh, and, and Gerriton versus Murray.
Right.
And, uh,
and Paul Weiss wanted to go straight to the Supreme Court.
And you remember how that conversation went.
I chased him out of the business rooms.
And called you and Jack Bogren said, no, we've got to take it back.
Give, give Paul the opportunity to, uh,
convince the other judges.
Nobody told me his nickname was KKK Hall.
Right.
What passed up on that opportunity?
And it hit the fourth circuit, gotten any better?
And it got much better.
Uh, it has since, uh, President Trump slid back some.
But it's, uh, it is not what it was back in the day.
I mean, when, when it was the worst in the country.
In the rocket.
And the fifth in the, uh, you want.
Well, fourth and fifth.
They like to think they will.
They're not going to be bad, but they were nothing compared to the fourth.
The fourth at one time was clearly the worst.
Yeah.
And then, you know, with, with, uh, with President Obama's appointees,
it became, uh, actually quite good.
Probably one of the better circuits in the country for criminal defendants.
And then it has a backslid some, but, uh,
it's not what it was. That's for sure.
I mean, it was a procedural default.
I mean, I don't know how many.
How many.
How many.
Yeah.
You know that, you know that in Joe O'Dell's case,
when his lawyers were doing the direct appeal to the state Supreme Court.
Instead of saying.
petition for appeal.
They said motion for appeal in the title of it.
And they refused to hear anything.
So he had a case that never even was heard by the state Supreme Court.
Consequently, couldn't get an appeal.
And so, uh, the judge, uh,
the judge signed the order on one day.
And they filed it on the following day.
And the, the attorneys calculated their time for filing the petition for appeal based on the date that the order was filed.
And the Supreme Court said,
nope, you should have done the day that just said the order was filed.
And the Supreme Court said,
nope, you should have done it the day that just signed it to one day.
One day, one day.
Oh my God.
So we defaulted on everything.
Oh, that's so terrible.
Wow.
This is an incredible conversation.
I know that Nancy, Jean and Nick have been awful quiet.
Do you have anything you want to say or any questions you might have?
Michael, I just like to thank you for getting us all together tonight.
It's an honor to be on the screen with all of you.
Um, you are a wonderful group.
Thank you for your hard work and your dedication and your passion.
And sister, how are you before you joined us?
I was telling everyone you were going to be on Lawrence O'Donnell tonight.
I think I gave the wrong time.
I think it's 945 for us, but 1045 maybe it's 945.
You sent from time 945 for us.
Yeah.
But, um, you are, you are the, the face of this movement.
And you are my hero.
And you are to now.
Thank you.
It takes us all.
It takes us all.
Yes.
I'm not a Gina.
Anything you want to say or share?
I was going to echo Nancy.
I feel even though, I mean, just in the last two years,
you all have been such an incredible inspiration.
And I, you know, it's, it's amazing that it happened.
And then it happened so quickly.
And for you all who have been at this and in the trenches for so long,
I'm just, you know, humbled.
And I want to say, you know, it's been so inspirational for me to be a part of this that I,
I, I, I wanted to make it my life's work.
And now I am that I'm, I'm doing this full time.
I've, I've had conversations this month with people in Ohio and Nevada about abolition there.
And it's just, I'm thrilled to have been a small part of this.
It works for a preview now.
Oh, that's good.
Oh, God's good.
Oh, yeah, that's wonderful.
Yeah.
Good.
Yeah.
So we've been at this almost an hour and a half.
And I'm getting hungry.
And we've had a lot of people drop off.
But I just want to have one last toast to our victory.
And God bless, Joe Gerrano.
God bless, Helen Priciot.
And let's remember those who couldn't be with us in the flesh that have gone on to meet their maker.
And starting with sister.
And with our good friend Marie Deans.
God bless her and all the others that have gone before us.
And my wife raised the glass to all of y'all as well.
She says, tell everybody hello.
Yes.
Hey Denise.
Hey Denise.
Thank you all.
Thank you, everybody.
I want everybody and have a good night.
And enjoy the weekend.
So everybody gets to sleep easily tonight.
And we'll be we'll be in touch sister Helen with our mutual good friend bark stopper.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, bark.
Oh, how far is it going?
I've heard from Bart.
And we'll all get together in person.
Oh, that'll be really great.
Well, look, remember justice is justice.
Yes.
Yeah.
And we'll be in touch with Bart and and let him know what's happened.
Okay.
Wonderful.
Thank you, everybody.
Okay.
Everybody take care of what a day.
