f JOHN GREGG
| Direct Examination .....-.. eee eee ee ee eee
Cross Examination ...... eee eee eee eee eee
RUSTY FEATHERSTONE
Direct Examination ........ epee ee ee tet eee
Cross Examination ...... cee ee ee ee ee tes
GARY BEGGS
Direct Examination ...... eee eee ee tts
Cross Examination ...... 2 ee ee es
JERRY FRITAG
Direct Examination ......... ee ee ee ee tees
Cross Examination ......... eee ee ete ets
CHARLES CAMP
Direct Examination ....... ce ee ee et te tee
Cross Examination .......... eee eee ee ee te ee
TOMMY KIRK
Direct Examination ........ 2. cee te eee
Cross Examination .....-.- . eee ee ee tees
JERRY PETERS
Direct Examination ....... 2. eee eee ee ee eee tees
Cross Examination ......... ee eee ee ee ee et ee tee
ANN REED
Direct Examination ........- ce eee ee eee eee etree teens
Cross Examination .......--. eee eee eee ee ee te ee tt ete ee
Redirect Examination .......-.-. 2. eee eee ee eet tet eeee
Recross Examination ........-. eee eee ee ee tt tee
Peony Maser, C.5.fi.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
Page #
399-400
400-402
403-404
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407-408
408-411
411-413
413-422
422-424
424-431
431-433
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447-454
454-465
466
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MALCOLM BROWN
Direct Examination ......... 2... eee tee ee - -468-
Cross Examination ......... ee te eee 482-
Redirect Examination ........... 02 eee ee ee ee eee 491-
LUCILLE BROWN
Direct Examination ........ .. eee ee nee 493-
Cross Examination ........ ec tees 500-
Redirect Examination ........... ee ee eee
BENNY McCARTHY
Direct Examination ............ cee ee eee 508-
Cross Examination ........- eee ee ee ee te eee 531-
Redirect Examination .....-..... ee eee eee ee ee eee 557-
“Recross Examination ......... eee ee es 561-
Redirect Examination .............. eee te eee 562-
CHAROLOTTE MANN
Direct Examination .........- eee eee ee ee 564-
Cross Examination .........-. 2 eee eee ee te eee 577-
VICKY KEENE
Direct Examination ......... cee eee ee ee eee eee eee ee DBT-
Cross Examination ....... ee o 8 A OD
Redirect Examination ........... 2... eee eee ee ee ees ,O17-
Recross Examination .,........... Ce eee eee Tae eeeeeyesses
Redirect Examination ......-.- eee eee eee eee tees ,..622-
RECORD MADE ON ADMISSION OF STATE'S EXHIBIT 21 ......... 625-
Penny Moser, 0.5.A.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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Redirect Examination
Direct Examination .
Direct Examination .
Cross Examination ..
STATE RESTS
-_2e © © © © © @
DEFENDANT DEMURRER .
CHARLESETTA GARCIA
RANDY JACKSON
DR. FRED JORDON
JAMES LOONEY
DONETTA BRADFORD
DEFENDANT'S CASE
CINDY THOMPSON
Penny Moser, 0.5.0.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
648-657
648-657
669-671
671-672
672-681
682-691
691-699
699-700
701
702-704
704-711
712
DANNY MANN
Direct Examination ........... 0... eee ee eee 713-719
Cross Examination ........... 0... cee ee ee 719-727
Redirect Examination .......... 0.0... 2.2 eee ee ee 727
Recross Examination .......... 0... 20. eee eee 728-729
Redirect Examination ............. 0.00002 eee ee eee 729
DEFENDANT RESTS ..... ee ee eee 729-730
RECORD ON INSTRUCTIONS ......... 2.0.0... 022 cee ee 731-733
STATE'S FIRST CLOSING ..................... eee eres ee cece 734-736
DEFENDANT'S CLOSING ....... 0.0... 22. eee ee ee ee eee ee 736-759
STATE'S FINAL CLOSING ......... 2.0... 00. eee eee eee ee 759-770
“RECORD MADE ON NOTES FROM JURY .......................4. 770
VERDICT .. 2. ee pee ee ee ee ee II1L-773
(Sentencing Phase)
STATE'S CASE
STATE'S OPENING STATEMENT ......,.....02 0200 c eee e eee eee 774-776
DR. KLINE |
Direct Examination ..................-.2--. ee »....776-784
Cross Examination ........,..... ce eee eee eee tee ee ee ee FB4=790
Redirect Examination .............. 0... e eee eee ee ee eee ee 190-794
Recross Examination ........... 20... cece eee eee ee ee ee 1 94HT95
Redirect Examination .....,...-. cece cece ee cee ete ee eee 195-796
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3871
24
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ROBERT LEE
Direct Examination ........ eee ee ee eee 796-798
Cross Examination ......- . ee ee eee 798-799
KEN REED
Direct Examination ........ eee ee tees 799-802
Cross Examination ........ eee ee es 802-803
Redirect Examination ........... eee ee eee 803
STATE RESTS Looe ee eee ee eee 803
DEFENDANT'S CASE
RAYMOND CLOUD, JR.
WILLIAM BRODERSON
Direct Examination .......---- eee eee tee 804-806
Cross Examination ..... eee ee ee eee 806-808
Redirect Examination eee eeepc ence eee e erste eee e ee» -808-809
Direct Examination .......... eee eee eee ee ees Lee ee 809-812
Cross Examination nce eee eee e neces eet eee eee eee 812-819
Redirect Examination .......... 0.2. 820
Recross Examination .....,..-.-+++-+-++++e- eee ee ee ee ee ee 820-821
Redirect Examination ....... eee ee ee ee eee eee 821
Recross Examination eee c ccc gee y eee: 821-822
IN CAMERA HEARING ..,..,...
*Charles V. Keene
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
1ANG\) 947.8675
ore ee
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822-831
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Direct Examination
Cross Examination
Redirect Examination
DEFENDANT RESTS
CHARLES V. KEENE
- 2s © © @
eee © © @ we
RECORD ON INSTRUCTIONS .
STATE'S FIRST CLOSING ..
DEFENDANT'S CLOSING
STATE'S FINAL CLOSING ..
CERTIFICATE OF TRIAL JUDGE
CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER
State's
State's
State's
State's
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Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
821-833
833
833
873
State's
State's
State's
State's
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32 ..... ttt eee tee eee cee tee bo eee ee 915
i peyreesee Pete teeter taeeee 916
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(495) 247-3671
24
25
MR. BARESEL: Ann Reed.
ANN REED
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BARESEL:
Q State your name, please?
A Ann G. Reed.
Q. And what is your occupation or profession?
A I'm a criminalist.
Q. Employed by whom?
A. The Cklahoma State bureau of Investigation.
- Q. How long have you been employed with the bureau?
A. | Over ten years now.
Q. Have you had any special traning or education that would
qualify you as a criminalist?
A. Yes, sir, I have a degree in chemistry. I've attended
courses at the F.B.I. Academy in Quanaco, Virginia, also at the
surrological institute in Emoryville, California. And courses at
Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. I've also taken course
at Central State University in Edmond, Oklahoma and also Washburn
University in Topeka, Kansas. . aa
Q. I call your attention to last February, did you have
occasion to come to work about the 22nd day of February and find
some evidence?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OXLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell the jury what all evidence was submitted to you to
the surrological section?
A. There was a tube of blood, some envelopes containing
fingernails, scalp hair, pubic hair, jeans
Q. Ann, you're going to have to speak up a lot louder. .
A. Okay. A tube of blood, some envelopes containing finger-
nails, hair samples, jeans, there was a pair of jeans and a belt,
some theral and regular underwear, some socks, a chain and bags
from the hands. I believe that was all that was in there that day.
Q. And who had submitted those to the laboratory?
A. Jerry Peters.
“Q. Calling your attention to what has been marked as State's
Exhibit 14, ask you to look in the box at the chain.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that submitted to you?
A. Yes, it was. _
Q. And what type of examination did you perform on it? |
A. I did a simple visual examination for any type of material
or markings on it that I could find. ee pbeck:
Q. And did you find any distinctive markings or material on it?
‘No, sir, Idid not. we ARE SE.
=
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i ale SIT» >.
oes P
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J
I show you what has been marked as State's Exhibit 25. -
Yes, sir.
QO F- AO P
Did you receive that in the bag of clothes?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
' ANAODARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
{ANS\) PAT-2E78
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what name if any is engraved on that?
A. Charles. :
Q. And does it appear to be in the same or substantially the
same condition as when you received it?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. And what type of examination if any did you perform on it?
A. I again looked at it visually to see if I could see any bloo
or material of that sort.
Q. Did you find any foreign objects on it?
A. No, nothing that was unusual.
Q. Ann, tell the jury what surrolagy is?
|. A. Surrology is the study or the analysis of body fluids. That
includes blood, saliva, things of that nature.
Q. And how do you perform examinations on blood?
A. Well, it depends on whether the blood is in its whole state
or liquid state or whether it is a stain, there are some difference
in the test. .One test that we do on all of them is to determine
whether or not the substances is blood. That test is called the
hemocromigin test. Its a crystaline test where we add chemicals
to a sample, heat it and then view it microscopically for the |
presence of these hemocromigin crystals which develop only in the
presence of hemoglobin, which is the oxygen carrying agent of the
blood. The. test we perform next is to determine whether or not
the sample is of human origin, that is whether or not it could have
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
450
come from a human body. It has human protein in it. This test is
called the double difussion octilony test. We do that on whole
blood samples and on stains also. Then we do tests to determine
blood group if possible. We do tests to determine whether, what
antigen is present and what antibody is present. The antigen is
the substance on the blood cell that determines what your blood
group is in the ABO system. The antibody is actually in the blood
serum, and whatever your blood group is, say you're blood group A
then you will have antibody B because that would be foreign to your
blood system. The test on liquid blood is done directly and you
simply add the antiserum to it and it reacts with the antigen on
the blood cell and then you remove the serum from the blood and
‘you run it with known blood cells and that determines your antigen
and antibody. To determine it on stains you actually have to
incubate it for a while with the antiserum and wash it away and
then add cells to it to get your results.
Q. By incubate you mean heat it? --
A. Heat it for a period of time, yes, sir. '
Q. I show you what has been marked as State's Exhibit 24. What
is that?
A. Okay. This is a tube of blood. It does have my initials :
and it has my lab number on it.
Q. And did you receive that in the group of evidence that Mr.
Peters submitted? | |
A. Yes, sir, it was in an evidence envelope.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
_ OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
~
Q. And what if any tests did you perform on that?
A. The tests I previously mentioned, I determined first that it
was blood, then that it was af human origin, then I determined the
blood group, which was blood group A.
Q. I hand you what's been marked as State's Exhibit 26, did you
perform any tests on State's Exhibit 26?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what's contained in 26 and what type of test did you do?
A. Okay. There are two bundles of carpet fibers or carpeting.
One of them I used as a control, it did not have any blood on it.
The other one I used and determined that there was human blood
group A on it.
Q. And by whom was that submitted to you?
A. Robert Lee.
Q. Ann, I'll hand you three photographs marked State's Exhibits
16, 17 and 18, and ask you if you can identify those?
A. Yes, sir, I can. -
Q. What are those pictures of?
A. These are pictures of a car which I came to Chickasha to
process.
Q. And where did you process that car at?
A. I believe it was out at the fairgrounds in a barn or in a
big building.
Q. And what do you mean by the word process?
A.. Well, we use it to mean searching an area or a vehicle for
Penny Moser, €.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 -
24
25
452
any type of evidence.
Q. Are those true and accurate photographs of the vehicle
that you searched in?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. Calling your attention specifically to the trunk, did you
remove any items from the trunk of that motor vehicle for testing?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What items if any did you remove?
A. There was an open-ended wrench, a car tire, a hammer, a |
leaf, a hose off of a car, a battery cable with a clamp, or clamp
with cable, and old car tag.
Q. What type of test did you perform on those items?
~ A. At the time I performed some screening tests to determine
whether or not blood could possibly be on it. Then I removed them
and took them to the laboratory for further tests.
Q. Let me hand you what has been marked as State's Exhibit
28 and 29 and 30. Referring to then, please, by number would you
tell me what they are? ‘ |
A. State’s Exhibit 30 is a car tag which I removed from the
trunk of the car. And State's Exhibit 29 is the hammer which —
also removed from the trunk of the car. And State's Exhibit Number
28 is the battery cable with clamp that I removed. | oF
Q. What distinguished these three items from the other items |
you removed from the car? a
A. When I got back from the lab I was able to get a positive
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 | -}
© i lltest for the presence of blood off of them.
2 Q. Were you able to confirm that other test for example with
3 |ltype of blood or any antigen factors?
4 A. No, sir, I was not.
5 Q. Were you able to break it down to determine whether it was
6 ||human or animal origin?
7 A. No, I could not. |
8 Q. Ann, this is the last item I think I'll be asking you
9 ll questions about. I hand you what has been marked as State's
10 || Exhibit 32.
1} | A. Yes,sir.
What's contained therein?
A knife.
From whom did you receive State's Exhibit 32?
From Robert E. Lee.
And who is Robert Lee?
He's one of our agents. _
. And what if anything did you do to State's Exhibit 322
. I examined it for the presence of blood.
And by examining it did you do anything to it?
. Yes,sir, I did.
Q
Oo PrP Or OF Oo PF Oo PP
: What did you do to it?
23 A. I took the pieces that fit in this area, I tore them off
24 || trying to find whether or not there was blood down in the area
25 || for me to work with.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Q. | What other parts of the knife did you search?
A. The blade and actually the cracks and down in this area.
(indicating) Down where it fits into the handle. ;
Q. Did you find any substances on State's Exhibit 32?
A I did find blood.
Q. Were you able to type it?
A No, sir, I could not.
Q. Able to do any additional testing work on it?
A. No, there was not enough sample.
Q Is that exhibit in the same condition as when you tested it
for the presence of blood?
A. Well, its in the same condition as when I finished testing
-it for blood, yes.
MR. BARESEL: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnel.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. McCONNEL:
Q. Mrs. Reed, your laboratory is in Oklahoma City at
Northeast 36th and Eastern I would assume?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
~
Q. And during the ten years you've been with the O.S.B.IL3
has your duty or employment been restricted to work in the
laboratory there?
A. Yes, sir, I did go through our academy for a short period
but I've always been in the lab.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
455
You've never worked anywhere else for the 0.S.B.I., correct?
No, sir.
Prior to that time had you worked for any agencies?
Yes, sir, I have.
Where was that?
The Kansas Bureau of Investigation.
Was that in the same capacity?
Yes, it was in the lab, yes, sir.
How long did you work for them?
A little over a year and a half.
Was that your first employment of this type?
> ODO PF Oo PF OF OF Oo PP 0
It was the first employement in law enforcement, yes, sir.
Q. So your degree in chemistry was of course, before that time,
is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before the Kansas State Bureau of Investigation?
A. Yes,sir. _
Q. And then the other training that you've referred to here
the F.B.I. Academcy at Quanaco and Central State and Washburn in
Topeka, were those after you'd been with the Oklahoma State
Bureau of Investigation? B,
A. Now the training at the Washburn University in Topeka wae
between the period of time when I worked for the K.B.I. gad price
to coming for the Oklahoma State Bureau. The rest of the courses,
yes, have been since I went to work for the 0.S.B.1.
Fenny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
tame 2am meme
24
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Q. What is your position out there, you're a criminalist, but
are you also considered a chemist of course?
A. Yes, my official title with the Oklahoma State Merit
System is Criminalist Supervisor.
Q. Okay. Prior to being known as a criminalist or as a
criminalist supervisor, would you have been described as a chemist
at any time?
A. We were called forensic chemist for a time.
Q. Okav. When did that designation change?
A. I'm afraid the years run together a little bit but I belive
it has been six or seven years since we've changed it.
Q. low a great deal of your relevant testimony that you've
given here this afternoon concerns samples of blood. Of course,
your training as a chemist was designed to cover all areas of
chemistry, is that correct, such as the examination and identifi-
cation of narcotics, marijuana and substances, is that correct?
A. Your basic chemistry degree is you learn basic chemistry
and then you learn analytical techniques, that's about all your
basic chemistry degree is.
Q. And although we've been talking here this afternoon almost
solely about blood that is not your sole job description is it?
You deal with identification and examination of blood samples, is
that correct?
A. That's not all I do, no, sir.
Q. And your other duties would include I assume such things
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE |
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005 j
Pe a
24
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as identification of narcotics?
A. No, sir, it would not.
Q You do not do that? :
A No.
Q. And that would be done by whom, someone in your department?
A. Actually a number of years ago in fact almost at the time
I came to work for the bureau we split the laboratory in half. We
have what we call now the drug or chemical section and we have
what we call the surrology tray section and I have been involved
almost exclusively with the surrology section of the lab.
Q. And how long has that been, ma'am?
A. About ten years. Il did very little drug analysis when I
-came here.
Q. And how many people are in your division in the surrology
division?
A. Directly in the building with me or in the whole agency?
A. Directly in your particular department as you testified
this afternoon?
A. Okay. There are seven of us.
Q. Seven. Did anyone assist you or aid you in your examina-
tion which you've told us about here this afternoon?
A. No, sir.
°Q. And have you at any time reduced your findings to a written
report?
A. Yes, sir,I . have.
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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Q. And you have a copy of that report with you?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Okay. When was that report made?
A. Well, there are actually two reports. The original report
was made the fourth month, the twenty-first day, of 1983. The
following report was made the ninth month, the eight day of 1983.
Q. And is there any particular reason why the time lapse
between those two reports?
A. Well, probably the case load would be the main reason.
The first part of the report is basically your surrological work. .
The last part is hair analysis and hair analysis doesn't
deteriorate so it can wait.
- Q. At whose request did you come to Chickasha to make the
examination or processing of the car that you described?
A. Could I check my notes and see who actually made the call to
me?
Q. Yes, go ahead.
A. Okay. I received the call from I believe K.P. Larsh
actually made the call. I did talk to Bob Lee during part of my
conversation.
Q. What was the name of the first gentlemen you mentioned?
A. K.P. Larsh. |
Q. How are you spelling that name? oo eee
A L-A-R-S-H, and K.P. are his initials.
Q And what agency is he?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
459
A. He's with the Oklahcma State Bureau of Investigation.
Q. In what office?
A. The Lawton office.
Q. Is that how you found out where this car would be located
down here at the fairgrounds or wherever you saw?
A. No, I believe they told us to come to the sheriff's office
which we did and then we were directed to go back to the fair-
grounds.
Q. Now, Mrs. Reed, I'm going to start in with some of the
last things you talked about first and go backwards. I believe it
was number 32, the knife that you received from Robert E. Lee.
You stated you examined it for blood, is that correct?
- A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And would you correct me on that exhibit number if you
would look at the knife there that doesn't have any handles on it?
A. It is State's Exhibit Number 32, you're correct.
Q. And that is the knife without handles, isn't it?
A. Yes, sir, its the one--well, it has a handle but the
wooden part has been torn off of it.
Q. Okay. On both sides?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are you aware of any reason why the handles were
removed?
A. Yes, I removed them.
Q. All right. When was that done?
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A.
460
On the date of my analysis which was February 25th, 1982--
or 1983.
Q.
Where was that work done, in other words, where was that
knife when the handles were removed?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
In the surrology laboratory.
Okay. And are those, have those been retained somewhere?
They're right here. (indicating)
And could you tell me what kind of knife that is, if there
is a brand reflected on it?
The blade has Prairie written across it.
And where did you first see that knife?
‘In the laboratory, surrology section of the 0.S.B.1.
Okay. Do you know who had brought it there?
Yes, it was Robert Lee.
Did he personally deliver it to you?
I believe he did,yes, sir. I know we discussed it.
You discussed it with Robert Lee?
Yes. , L
What was your original purpose for examination of that
For the presence of blood.
And I believe you stated that you found some?
=
*
Yes, sir, I did.
“aS - FF
Have you determined whether that was human or animal blood?
No, sir, I could not.
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. Okay. Going back once again on the items that you went
through. In regard to the car you came down here and checked,
what type of vehicle was that? Four door sedan or two doors?
A. It was two door.
Q. What color was it?
A. Well, we sort of argued about that. I called it gold but
I believe the agent referred to it as burnt orange or something
like that, we weren't in agreement on the color.
Q. Do you remember the make of it?
A. I can tell you in just a moment I think. (reviewing
documents) It was an Oldsmobile.
Q. Did you have any equipment or materials with you which you
-could do field examinations?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And did you do this field examinations at the fairgrounds?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. In what type of facility was this car being kept?
A. It was in --oh, it was a large open barn like structure
really. It was a very large area where there was a door where
you could drive it in.
Q. And what did your field test consist of at that point?
A. All I was doing at that point was doing a screening test
for blood, and the screening test we use is the orthotology test.
Q. And what were you results at that time?
A. On the items that I removed I did get a presumptive for
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
blood. That is blood could be present.
Q. What portions or parts of the car were these samples taken?
A. There were some samples taken from the trunk of the car,
also from the interior from the seat area.
Q. Front or back?
A. From both.
Q. Okay. Beginning with the trunk what results did you obtain |
as far as the presence of blood?
A. When I got to the lab or there?
Q. Well, lets start with there.
A. Okay. At the time I got presumptive tests off of the open
ended wrench, a car tire, a hammer, a leaf, a hose, a battery
-cable with clamp on it, the car tag--okay that was out of the
trunk.
Q. What about the interior of the vehicle?
A. Okay. The interior there was a baseball bat -- I don't
believe I did a presumptive on it because I wanted to look at it
under a low power microscope. Then there was a steering wheel
cover, a towel, some overalls, there was a thread from the
window handle of the back seat.
Q. Excuse me, a what?
A. There was a thread that we removed from a window handle, it
was kind of wrapped around it. Now, I did not do a presumptive
test on that. I simply took it for comparison with any other
fibers I found. There were some stains on the back panel.
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. On the back what?
A. The back panel of the door.
Q. Driver's side or passenger's side?
A. Passenger's side. There were some stains on the back of
front seat on the passenger side. And I also took a lug wrench
that gave me a presumptive test. Il also took vacuumings from th
back seat area, but there again I didn't do a presumptive test
for blood off of them.
Q. Okay. On the items that you've described I didn't quite
follow you, did you mean that all of them have presumptive test
for blood if you didn't say that they didn't have?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Approximately how much time did this testing at the fair-
grounds take?
A. Oh, I can tell you when we arrived and when we left.
(reviewing documents) We arrived at 11:55 and we left at 17:30,
which would be 5:30. | —
-~
Q. Was anyone assisting you with this test? That is anyone
with chemical background in surrology training?
A. There was someone with me who was helping label things -
for -me. :
Q. But no one with any expertise? oo
A. Well, she has some expertise but she wasn't using it at.
that time.
Q. Okay. She was not making findings with you?
Peony Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-2671
the
e
‘ye
464
A. She was simply helping me label and listing the items.
Q. Now then after this field screen test--this was on what
date?
A. February the 17th, 1983.
Q. And then were there subsequent follow up tests done at your
laboratory?
A. Yes, sir, there was.
Q. Okay. Rather than go back through all this lets do it this
way. In following up on this screen tests did you determine
whether this was human blood or animal blood?
A. No, sir, I could not determine that it was human blood.
Q. On any of these items that we've talked about?
oA. On any of them.
Q. And the next item I believe you discussed once again going
in reverse from the way in which you talked about them this after-
noon, you had some liquid blood in a test tube?
A. Yes, sir. _
Q. Is that the sample that you have seen here and identified?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And when was that brought to you?
A. It was brought to the laboratory on the 19th day of
February, 1983. Now, I actually didn't see it until the 22nd of
February, 1983.
Q. And then you began testing it on that day?
A. I don't believe so, I believe it was a day or two later.
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 249-3671
24
25
465
But I did see it in the refrigerator.
Q. Approximately what was the weight of that sample there if
you know?
A. Of the liquid blood?
Q. Yes.
A. I have no idea. I believe its approximate volume was
probably five milloleters.
Q. Five milloleters?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And approximately what amount was removed for purposes of
your testimony?
A. Quite a bit of it because I was trying to get some serum
|off of it. I'd say at least half.
Q. And it was atthat time as a result of that testing that
you did determine that the blood in that vile or test tube was
human blood, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, human blood, Group A.
Q. And that it was type A? a
A. Yes,sir.
Q. Did anyone aid or assist you in that determination of :
the testing that lead you to that result?
A. No, sir, they did not.
MR. McCONNEL: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Baresel.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
BY MR. BARESEL:
Q. Ann, I don't recall if I asked you or not, but on the
State's Exhibit 26, is that the same type blood as was in the
sample? | |
A. Of the tube? It was the same blood group, yes, sir.
Q. Group A on both?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anything in the trunk of the car that interfered
with your ability to examine those items for blood or other
foreign objects?
A. Yes, Sir, there was.
Q. What was that?
| A. There was an oily like substance that smelled very strongly
of diesel fuel.
Q. Over what portion of the trunk?
A. Over the whole trunk really.
Q. The interior?
A. Yes. . 7
MR. BARESEL: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnell.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. McCONNEL:
Q. Let me just ask one question. In talking about item 26
there, Mrs. Reed, that is a sample of carpef? | | |
A. Yes, sir, I believe that's the number on it.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
ns er ee i ee
Q. And you show that to be type A blood, is that correct?
|
A. Yes, sir. |
Q. And what type is there--where was that sample received, that
sample of carpet received by you?
A. It was received in the surrology section of the laboratory.
Q. | Okay. It had nothing to do with your examination of the
car out at the fairgrounds?
A. That's correct.
MR. McCONNEL: Okay. That's all.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. BARESEL: That's all,Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may be excused. Thank you.
he Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is vour duty not to
converse among yourselves or with anyone else on the subject
connected with the trial. Nor to form or express any opinion aoubt
this case until it is finally submitted to you. If anyone attempts
to speak with you please advise me. I'11l also caution you that
you're not to read news accounts about this trial or any kind of
radio coverage should there be any, or to discuss it with your
spouse. We'll recess and meet in the morning about nine o'clock.
Again, you need to check in each morning to make sure you get
pats. Court will be in recess.
(Whereupon, evening recess was taken and proceedings
resumed as follows)
THE COURT: Show the presence of the jurors in the box,
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADOO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
the presence of the State, the Defendant and his attorney. State
will call their next witness.
MR. BURNS: Your Honor, the State will call Malcolm Brown
MALCOLM BROWN
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
Q. State your name, please? -
A. Malcolm Brown.
Q. Mr. Brown, I'm going to stand back here further so you'll
talk pretty loud so the jurors back here can hear you, Mr. Brown,
-where do you live?
A. Two miles north of town on Fourth Street.
Q. Fourth Street here in Chickasha?
A. That's right.
Q. You go two miles straight north? 7
A. A fraction over two miles. :
Q. All right. On which side of the road to you live, east
Side or west side?
A. East side.
Q. And how long have you lived there, Mr. Brown? .
A, | Oh, thirty-five, forty years.
Q. All right. I'd ask you to direct your attention back to
the month of January, 1983. Tell the jury what trips if any,
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
© ; || vacations, that you and your wife took during that month?
g |} you and your wife go to bed?
> || A.
3 ! Q.
4 lA.
5 || Q-
6 (|| A;
7 i Q.
9 || A.
i0 || @-
u jj your wife?
2 A.
3 ||-Sounded like it was on the front porch.
14 Q. Before you go into it can you tell us as best you can
15 approximately what time this was?
7 minute or two off.
ig || @.
i9 || What did you do?
20 A.
1 people call me Possum, said "Possum, let me in. They're going to
97 kill me" So I got up and turned the light on and opened the door
23 |}and I thought they was having a fight.
24 || Q-
5 A.
ry
A.
One time went to Florida in January.
When did you return from Florida, Mr. Brown?
On the 22nd.
Approximately what time of day or night did you get home?
Oh, eight or nine o'clock.
On that night when you returned approximately what time did
Probably about eleven.
And what if anything after you went to bed awakened you and
Well, up in the morning If heard a gun shot right out--
2:25, I looked at the clock. My clock might have been a
That's all right. Mr. Brown, after hearing the gunshot
Well, someone knocked on the door and hollered--a lot of
When you say a person knocked on your door,..
Well pounded on it, pounded on it real hard,
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
a a A eee me eevee ae ee eee
24
25
Q. All right. It wasn't just normal knocking like a person
would cometo your house and knock on the door, is that correct?
A. No, it wasn't, it was harder than that.
Q. And the person's voice that was yelling at you, was it a
normal tone or describe it for the jury,
A. Well, sounded like he was kind of excited.
Q. Describe to the jury after hearing the pounding on your
door and the excited voice, the man asking you to let him in, |
what words as best you can recall was the exact words that the
man said?
A. Said "Possum, open the door. Let me in. They're going to
kill me".
- Q. And when you went to the door describe for the jury first
of all what kind of door do you have?
A. Well two doors, screen door and front door. Its just a
big front door. They were both locked.
Q. Describe for the jury, sir, what type of lighting there was
on the front porch? :
A. Very poor light. Just almost no light, Very poor, dim, It
had got dirty. We'd been gone, see, and it got dirty.
—(Q. Okay, You say it got dirty, You had a porch light, didn't
you, Mr, Brown?
A. Yeah, porch light.
Q. Did you turn the porch. light on?
A, Yeah.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 ; j
Q. But you're telling the jury it was dim because it was
dirty? ;
A. That's right.
Q. Were you looking through the screen door, or what doors
were open?
A. Well, first off I looked through the door, its got three
little glass panels there. I looked through them and then I
opened the door seeing it was somebody there. I thought they was
stuck or something. |
Q. | After you looked through the panels and opened the door
which. door did you open?
A. I opened the big door first because the screen door is
outside, storm door.
Q. Did you open both. doors?
A. Not at the same time, just one right after the other.
Q. After you opened the screen door, the outside screen, what
--<
did you see or what did you do?
A. Well, there was one guy down on his knees kind of with his
hands up like this. (indicating) And these others was whipping
him, hitting him, kicking him, slapping him,
how to get into position that the man was, You say the man was 0
his knees, is that right?
A. Yes,
Penny Maser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
to let you use me as a guinea pig, I'd like for you to tell me -
Q. Mr. Brown, to make sure its clear with the jury I'm going
sf
n
24
25
Q. Now what else do I
A. Well, knees was squatted down. I think he was on his knees.
Put your hands up over your head like this. (indicating)
Q. Like this? (indicating)
A. Yes. Kind of bend over.
Q. Was my head down on the ground?
A. No, no, just over about like I an.
Q. Like this? (indicating)
A. Yes. | _
Q. Is this the way it was? (indicating)
A. Yes.
Q. Could you -- the man's face then, Mr. Brown, was looking
-down at the ground, is that right?
A. That's right.
So you couldn't actually see his face?
A. No.
Q. Could you recognize his voice? _
A. No, I didn't.
Q. After the statements that you heard while you were inside
the house, the initial pounding on the door and the man's voice,
did the man that was down on the ground, did you ever hear him say
yo aa ee 7
anything else? eres
7 a oe
A. No, he never said nothing else that I heard, op TETAS
Q. What other conversations. did you hear, What other words did
you hear spoken from that porch?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. Well, at first I thought they was just fighting. One of
them said "Give me that gun.'' And the other one said--I don't
know which one, now, other one said "No, you almost shot me once
and I'm going to keep it this time."
MR. McCONNEL: Excuse me. May we approach the bench.
THE COURT: Yes.
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
MR. McCONNEL: Your Honor, at this time I'm going to
object to this line of questioning as being hearsay. From hearing
this witnesses previous testimony at preliminary hearing he can
not place my defendant at the scene which he's talking about and
can not establish that my client was present. Therefore, these
would be I feel outside the presence of the defendant and I object
to it.
MR. BARESEL: Obviously the first point is that part of
the res gestae of this offense is that as the Court is well aware
we'll connect the defendant back to that attack through substantial
evidence both through admissions made by the co-defendants as well
as by physical evidence from the scene. I think you're aware of
that by hearing the previous testimony. And it makes no difference
which defendant said it as long as it is during the course of the
circumstance.
THE COURT: That will be overruled. And I will assume
the D.A. will connect it up.
(Whereupon, record completed at the bench, proceedings
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADOO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
resumed as follows)
Q. (by Mr. Burns) Mr. Brown, I'd like to slow down for a
little bit about the sequence of things that happened on the front
porch. And I'd like to back up, I kind of get to going fast
myself. But you say they were on the front porch. Describe the
number of people that you saw entirely on that front porch? You've
got one man down on the ground. How many other people did you see
on your porch?
A. Four, five all together.
Q. Counting the man that was down, five people? :
A. Yes.
Q. Describe the location or position of the other four men,
where they were at and their position.
A. Well, my porch is about a six by eight, maybe ten--small.
And the man that was down was just north of the door. And then...
Q. Your house faces which. direction?
A. West.
Q. Your front porch faces west? —
A, Right.
Q. So if a man was--as your front door opens the man was. right
on the right hand side of your door?
A. My front door opens on the south. |
Q. Okay. It turns back to the south? *
A. Yeah.
Q. The man was right there on your right on the north side of
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
your front door?
A. Right here is the front door and he was right here about
middle way in the porch, hardly middle way I believe would be the
way to say that.
Q. The four men in addition to the one that was down, what
positions were they in on your front porch?
A. Well, they was standing up, the other four and one of them
was over on the north wall, the one that had the gun. And then the
other three was kind of huddled around him standing around hin,
one hit himzand then the other hit him, one hit him, another hit
him. |
Q. You say they were hitting him, what were they hitting-- the
“man that was down was the one being struck, is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you ever see the man that was down strike back or strike
any blow at all himself?
A. No. | _
Q. There were three men standing directly around him, is that
correct? | |
A.- Well, they were all around him, its a small place, Yeah, ~
2-°
directly around him, yes. a
Q. What were they hitting him with?
.
&
A. Well, it was twelve or eighteen inches long. It looked to
me like a piece of stuff where they-roll up a carpet, Couldn't
see too good.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(ANB) 247 24874
Q One man had a stick of some kind, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q And one man was holding a gun?
A Yes.
Q. And the other two men, did you see any weapons in their
hands?
A. No, they was just hitting him, kicking him, they kicked him
too.
Q. They were hitting him with their fists and the stick and _|
kicking him with their feet, is that right?
A. Yes. ;
Q. What words or statements did you hear the men that were
L~
striking the one that was down, what words or statements did you
hear those men utter? What did you hear those people say?
A. Well, one of them said "this is for the way you treated our
sister." I don't know which one of then.
Q. I couldn't hear you clearly. Could you repeat that? -~
A. One of them said "this is for the way you treated _ sister
Q. "This is for the way you treated our sister?"
A. Right. |
Q. Did any of the men make any statements directed toward you
or what did you say to those men?
A. Well, I told them that didn't look like to me it was hardly
right, four on one. They said I better get back in the house or
they'd give me a little of it.
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(4035) 247-3671
24
25
Q. The men told you to get back in the house or they'd give you
a little of it?
A. (witness nods)
Q. After seeing what you saw on your front porch and what was
happening to the one man what did you do,sir?
A. Well, sometime along in there I don't remember if it was
just before or just after, why the telephone rang. Well my
telephone, I have to go back through. the living room and down the
hall. It was the sheriff's departient calling me, -
Q. Well how did-- tell the jury about the first call made from
your house?
A. Well I called up here-- I couldn't think of the sheriff's
‘number right quick so I called 911, I could think of that.
Q. That was the dispatcher for the Chickasha Police Department,
is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. ~ And so you say it was after you made the initial call while
you was on the front porch. your phone rang?
A. Yes.
Q. - What happened when your phone rang? |
A, Well they wanted to know--that was the sheriff's department
~
and they wanted to know if I still had a disturbance still going
fon out there. I said yeah, And during the time my wife was
standing there telling me they was moving, leaving, they left
during that time.
Penny Moser, €.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(403) 247-3671
24
25
Q. That's what I'm trying to get to,Mr. Brown, when you --when
your phone rang and you left the front door from watching--where
-
is your phone from your front door?
A. Well, its across the living room and down the hall about
fifteen feet. I couldn't see, I was around the corner.
Q. That's what I'm trying to get you to tell the jury. You
couldn't see outside from where your telephone was at?
A. No.
Q. While you were on the telephone where was your wife?
A. She was running around there about half scared to death.
Q. She was in the living room?
A. Yeah, well in the bedroom back and forth. I think she went
_back in the bedroom. Now it was dark, we didn't have no light on
in the house at all.
Q. Mr. Brown, as to the four men you saw standing up on your
porch were you able to identify any of those four men?
A. No.
Q. Can you describe those four men to the jury as best you can
as to their physical sizé, being their height and weight and
things of that nature? | ; jo:
A. Well, there was four different sizes I believe. One a littl
taller than the rest of them and then one a little --next to him;
aa) a
kind of like a step ladder, then there was two not quite so tall:
Q. Do you know a person by the name of Ricky Jones? 7
A. Yes.
Penny Moser, 0.5.4.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
- (405) 247-3671
-
,
479
Q. How is the tallest person, what is that person's height
that you saw on your porch, what was his height in relationship
to the height of Ricky Jones?
A. Well, there's three steps there. This is a narrow porch.
Some of them was on the steps and some of them was on the porch.
And they was running around there. There was a little difference,
I believe, not much.
q. As to -- do you know a person by the name of Bobby Class?
A. Yes. ~
Q. As to the height of the people that you saw on your porch
was any of them the height of Bobby Glass?
~
A. Oh, more so, I believe a little more so.
Q. And do you know a person, the defendant in this courtroom
today, Wayne Thompson. Do you know Mr. Thompson?
A. No, sir, I didn't know him.
Q. Your Honor, we'd ask for Mr. Thompson to stand.
(Cefendant stands) _
Q. As to the height of Mr. Thompson, he's approximately 5'11"
5'10"' as to his height, as to how tall Mr. Thompson appears to you
right now what is his height in comparison to the people that were
on your porch? | | |
A. Well, I believe there was two about that height I believe.
Q. Now, Mr. Brown, I've asked you a lot of questions trying to
be specific about things that didn't take very long to happen on.
your front porch. This whole sequence of events, from the time the
Penny Moser, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
man pounded on your front door until the time that you went to make
a talk to the sheriff's office the last time, how much time are you
talking about?
A. Oh, just a minute. Maybe--not over two minutes. I don't
believe it was that long.
Q. Very short period of time?
A. That's right, very short.
Q. How many gunshots did you hear?
A. One, that's when I was in bed. That's what woke me up.
Q. After you were on the telephone--we're going to visit with
your wife here in a few moments about the rest of what happenec,
but, Mr. Brown, the following day after it became daylight and you
I'went outside your house tell the jury what items if any that you
found in the vicinity of your house which were not there the day
before when you came home?
A. Well, I don't remember anything that day.
Q. In sequence of--what I'm talking about is when, if ever,
sir, did you find some items of clothing particularly that you
felt had not been there previously?
A. Yeah, a shirt and a cap or hat. But I just figured maybe
the dogs brought them up. I've got to pups.
Q. A shirt and a cap or a hat? .
A. Yes. eens? 4
Q. And you thought your dogs pulled those up? |
Well, yes, I thought they might have. They wasn't right on
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
_ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
24
25
481
the porch, they was just off the porch.
Q.
Mr. Brown, when the police officer started investigating
this case and men from the 0O.S.B.I1. came to your property what
items of physical evidence, if any, were recovered from your
property by the law enforcement officers?
A.
Q.
didn't
A.
put it
Q.
A gun casing.
Do you remember the name of the 0.S.B.I. man that found that
a7
NO.
Okay. Were you present when he found the gun casing?
Yes.
Where did he find the gun casing at?
Oh, five or ten feet out west of the porch.
Right out in your front yard?
Right in the front door, yeah.
What items, if any, did he remove from your front porch?
The rug.
He cut some holes in your carpet there on the front porch
he? :
No, he cut the rug up and rolled it up, the whole rug and
in sacks.
Mr. Brown, is there anything else that happened that night
that you think you ought to tell the jury?
A.
I can't think of anything right now.
MR. BURNS: I appreciate your testimony. I have no
further questions.
Penny Maser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-2671
i
rd 1 THE COURT: Mr. McConnell.
2 CROSS EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. McCONNEL:
4 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm going to have Wayne stand up here beside me.
5 || Do you remember being in this courtroom--I'm trying to talk louder
6 || than that jack hammer ecross the street--I don't think that jack
7 || hammer was going the last time we had the preliminary hearing back
g || in April. Do you remember that, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you remember being on the stand just like you're on
1) || the stand today?
12 A. Yes.
» 13. |r Q- On that day when we got to talking about this same ladder
14 || do you remember me having this young man stand up here beside
15 || Me just like this?
16 A. I believe so.
7 Q. Ckay. Just for point of reference I'm about 6'1" tall.
ig || Thinking back now you do remember the day I'm talking about in
19 || April?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When we had a preliminary hearing?
2 A. Yes. a . eee
3 || 0. And you made the same comparison of this boy's height and
54 || mine. Is it obvious to you that he's grown about four or five
25 || inches since that time?
® 7 Penny Moser, €.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. I believe he's growed a little.
Q. Okay. How long had you been gone from your home, Mr. Brown?
A. About two weeks.
Q. How long had you been gone from your home on this trip
that you talked about?
A. About two weeks.
Q Okay. That was Florida, right?
A Right.
Q. And what time did you get home that night?
A. Ch, eight or nine o'clock, about eight o'clock.
Q Anybody go on that trip with you?
My wife.
A
~ Q. And anybody else?
A
No.
Q. So when you got home it was just you and her that pulled in
is that correct?
A. That's right.
And about what time did you go to bed that night?
A. Well, 10:30 or 11:00.
Q. Do you consider yourself a fairly sound sleeper?
A. Yes.
Q. Now when you were awakened by this gunshot what time did
you realize it to be at that point?
A. Well, I got up out of bed and walked by the clock, we got
a clock there with a light on it, a little light on it, and it was
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
twenty five minutes after 2:00--within a minute or two.
Q. And is that the only gunshot you heard?
A. That's the only one.
Q. That's the first thing in this whole incident that you
remember is that gunshot, is that correct?
A. Well, it seemed like I was asleep and I'm back off completel
across the house and I could hear somebody knocking or pounding
on the door and I'm not sure if that is before or after. See, I'm
about half asleep. I am asleep.
Q. I beg your pardon?
A. I was alseep, pretty sound asleep. It was all about the
same time, I'd say like that. (indicating)
rr Q. Okay. Now the gunshot on the porch was louder than the
knock on the door?
A. “Oh, yes, several times.
Q. And so you probably heard the gunshot first wouldn't you
think? _
A. Well, I think it was the other way around, I think I was
trying to wake up. I don't know for sure.
Q. You heard the knock on the door first?
Well, I don't know. I believe I did.
. Okay.
A
Q
A. Anyway the gunshot got me on the floor.
Q | Did your wife wake up at that time?
A
Yeah.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
or
°
24
25
5
Q. Was she awake when you woke up?
A. I believe she was.
Q. Did you take time to get dressed?
A. No, no, no, no.
Q. You ran right to the
A. Yeah, nightclothes.
q. Now, if my memory is correct your bedroom is back toward
the back of the house, is that correct?
A. Well, near the center of the house.
Q. Center?
A. Yeah, maybe a little bit back.
Q- All right. And the front door of your house, of course, is
“close to the road?
A. That's right.
Q. And to go from your bedroom you get up and go to the west
out toward the road?
A. No, go back straight north. You've got to jog over maybe
three or four feet to the door and then I got a door to the |
bedroom, then you come out in the hall, then you go in the living
room and the door is in the living room, the outside door.
Q. All right. Now you got out there and saw this scenario
here that Mr. Burns demonstrated for you. Could you tell whether
4 aieteS By SSG
ae Tae
or not that man on the ground there had a bullet wound?
A. No, I couldn't.
Q. Lighting was very poor, right?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. Yeah.
Q. And I believe you said today as you've said before, you
couldn't identify any of those persons, is that correct?
A. That's right. Not positive identify them, no. Too dark.
Q. Right. |
A. That was a real dark night.
Q. Very dark night?
A. Very dark.
Q. No moon?
A. No moon. And I believe it was cloudy.
Q. Cloud cover. All right. What can you tell us about any-
thing you noticed or saw about that man down on the ground there?
“Did he have a broken leg?
A. Couldn't tell the way he was kneeled down there and he was
kind of covering his face over while all those guys was hitting
on him, kicking him. Couldz't tell if he had a broke arm or what.
Q. Did you ever see him get up and walk? 7
A. No.
Q. Who was it that called you by name? Could you tell where
the voice was coming from? I know you can't identify them, but
in relation to where they were?
A. Well, I believe it was the one that was down.
Q. Is there anyway you could tell us where that gunshot care”
from, sir, in relation to your house--just to clarify things |
your house if you just went on this street just right outside the
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Se
24
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courthouse here and if you kept going you would eventually go
right by your house?
A. That's right.
Q. About what, two miles?
A. Just a fraction over two miles.
Q. Straight north?
A. Straight north. First house south of the river bridge.
Q. Right up where the Washita goes curving around?
A. That's right.
Q. And your house is on the east side of the road?
A. Right.
Q. And it generally faces toward the west toward the front
rto where your house is toward the road?
A. That's right.
Q.- Can you tell us where in relation to your house that gunshot
came from?
A. Well, it sounded like it was right on that porch. And that
shell casing was five maybe feet or couldn't have been over ten
feet, it was right close.
Q. How much time elapsed from the time you heard that shot
until you got to the front door of your house?
A. Oh, ten or fifteen seconds.
Q. You mentioned that one of these fellows had a club or some
sort of weapon. Did you hear any whacks or any thumps?
A. Yeah, I seen it.
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
' CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
488
Q. Okay. Mr. Brown, a little earlier we talked about a
Let me ask you if on that day on page 90 of the preliminary
hearing transcript these questions were asked and these answers
were given. This is when you're on the stand testifying as you
are now. My question to you on April 25th was "Okay. Now, you
mentioned one of the other boys had a club or some sort of a
weapon of that nature. Did you hear any whacks or thumps" And
your answer was "No." Do you remember giving that answer, sir?
A. No, I don't.
t}man down on his knees and covering up his head, that person was
-obviously alive at that time, right?
A. Right.
Q. You diden't hear any more gunshots other than the one you
have told us about,is that right?
= -
7 “n4
about this, are you counting the person on the ground?
A. No, five counting him.
Penny Moser, C.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
preliminary hearing on April 25 and 26th here in this courtroom.
Q. And, of course, in describing what went on there with this
A. Just one.
Q. How many people were standing around him at that time?
A.- Outside you mean?
Q.. Yes, sir. | - Sigs
A. Well, I know they was four and there may have been another
one in the background. | . Lye
Q. .Okay. Just to make sure the jury doesn't get confused te.
=:
24
25
Q. Five counting him?
A. One down and four up.
Q. One down and four up, okay. Did you see anybody hit any-
one with a pistol?
A. No.
Q. Was there any difference in the size of these people out
there?
A. Tall, yes.
Q. Okay. Let's review a little bit about it. One man down
and four men up. Let's start in and talk about the size of the
four men that were up. Can you give me any kind of estimate--
you've had a little bit of reference here, I'm 6'l", let's start
-with anybody over six feet tall out there.
A. Well, close to 6’ there was two of them.
Two of them that tall.
A. One just a little taller than the other one.
Q. All right. Then what else? _
A. Then you got two more just a little shorter than them.
Q. A little shorter than them?
A. Yeah. Maybe one a little shorter than the other one, or
about the same.
Q. Which size person would the one who said "this is for what
you did to our sister"? |
A. I don't know. I don't know which one said that.
Q. If you heard those voices again would you recognize them?
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. I doubt it.
Q. How did this deal come to an end? Did the sheriff come or
what happened to break it up?
A. While I was back on the phone talking to the sheriff they
left and I never saw them anymore.
Q. So the last thing you saw was that young man down on the
porch holding his head, is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. Did there appear to be any motive toward you for their
presence out there? In other words, were they trying to burglarize
your house or did there appear to be any connection to you in any-
way?
1 A. No.
Q. Could you see any reason at all for them to be at your
particular residence?
A. No.
Q. Did you know a man named Charles Keene?
A. Yes, I had known him two or three years before. He hauled
some hay for me.
Q. Just one time?
A. No, several times, three or four times.
Q. You knew what he looked like. I mean if you saw Charles
Keene today, if you were able to see him today you would know him?
A. I think so.
Q. You would be able to call him by name and he would be able
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
_ CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A.
; Q.
far
A.
Q.
me,
A.
to call you by name?
I believe so.
But you didn't see Charles Keene out there that night as
as you know?
I couldn't identify him, not that night, no.
And you didn't -- this young man sitting right here with
you don't remember seeing him there that night?
No.
MR. McCONNEL: That's all, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Burns?
’ REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
You knew Ricky Jones and you knew Bobby Glass. Did you
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
>
-_*
- Q. Mr. Brown, we've gone through this before but the man that
was down in the floor of your porch being beaten, the position I
got into a few moments ago, his face was down, is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. You're not saying it wasn't Charles Keene, are you?
No, sir.
. You're just saying you don't know?
A. I don’t know. |
Q. As far.as Wayne Thompson being on that porch, you're not
saying Wayne Thompson wasn't there, you're just saying you don't
| know? ge ES
A. I don't know. I can't positively identify him.
24
25
492
know Tony Mann?
A. No.
Q. How long had you and your wife been gone up there to your
trip in Florida?
A. About two weeks.
Q. So for two weeks there hasn't been anybody at your house?
A. No. |
Q. But you don't know whether or not during the time while you
and your wife were gone any of the people that you knew, Ricky
Jones or Bobby Glass, had come to your house and were aware that
you were gone?
A. As far as I know, no.
~ Q. Where is the Washita River at, Mr. Brown, in relationship
to your house?
A. About seventy-five or one hundred yards straight north.
Q. When you come on to your property there is access to the
Washita River right behind your house, isn't there?
A. Right.
MR.BURNS: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. McCONNEL: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You can be excused. Thank you. Call your _
next witness.
MR. BURNS: Lucille Brown.
LUCILLE BROWN
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
Penny Moser, €.5.h.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
tANS\ A2a7 BAW
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
BY MR.
Q.
A.
Q.
of relax if you can. Mrs. Brown, what is your husband's name?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
of January, 1983?
A.
Q.
took curing that month of January? _
A.
and we
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BURNS:
Would you state your name, please?
Lucille Brown.
Mrs. Brown, I can tell you're a little nervous but just kind
Malcolm.
What is his nickname?
Possum.
Where do you and Mr. Brown live?
Two miles north of the courthouse out North Fourth Street.
Mrs. Brown, did you live in that location during the month
Yes, we did.
Tell the jury what trips or vacations you and your husband
Oh, we went to Florida. And we were gone about ten days
returned on the night of January 22nd.
Approximately what time did you return home?
It was just about dark.
And in January that was about 6:00 or so?
Probably so.
What time did you go to bed that night?
Well, it was kind of late because I unpacked the camper and
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
fixed supper and by the time we got chores done and seen after
everything it was about 11:00 or 11:30 I imagine and we were late
getting to sleep.
Q. Tell the jury when if every you were awakened from your
sleep?
A. Well, it was around 2:00 o'clock or maybe a few minutes |
afterwards. |
Q. What awakened you?
A. The dog barked and there was a gunshot all at the same time.
Q. What did you do when you heard these noises?
A. We, of course, jumped out of bed and went to the door to
see what was going on. Someone hollered to call the sheriff,
‘said "Possum, call the sheriff. They're trying to kill me." It
upset us, we didn't know what was going on.
Q. The person that made that statement was someone that knew
you well enough to know that Mr. Brown's name was Possum, is that
correct? _
A. I suppose so because he called him Possum.
Q. What tone of voice was that voice you heard?
A. It was loud and it was a desparate voice.
Q. And when you heard the voice what did you and Mr. Brown do?
A. He said call the sheriff so we went to call the sheriff and
the telephone is in the hall and we went back away from the door —
and we did call the sheriff.
Q. Mr. Brown made the first call, is that correct?
Penny Moser, C.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
a ee ee ee i
-
495
A. Right.
Q. After making the first initial call what did you do next?
A. Well, we went back to kind of see what was going on. I was
scared to death of course because guns just unnerve me all over.
We saw they were still there on the porch and they were kicking and
beating someone that was down on the porch underneath the window.
Q. There was one person down on the front porch?
A. Right.
Q. And how many people did you see standing up?
A. I couldn't tell how many there were. There were some
others, I don't know how many. My husband said three more.
Q. In regard to the men that -- do you know how many you saw?
A. Well, the only one I really saw was the one that was down.
Of course, I knew there were some others there but it seemed like
I couldn't see them, I couldn't count them.
Q. What was happening to the man that was down?
A. Well, he had his hands over his head like this and he was
lying on I suppose his back and he was dressed in dark clothing,
I could just remember seeing something dark there, and someone
was: kicking him and beating him.
Q. In regard to someone kicking him and beating him, was there
more than one person or did it appear to be one person that was
kicking and beating the one that was down. |
A. There was more than one.
Q. What statements or what other words were spoken that you
Penny Moser, 0.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
{ANS) PAT-AKTF1
496
® 1 ||heard, Mrs. Brown, on the front porch?
2 MR. McCONNEL: Excuse me. Can we approach the bench?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 (Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
5 MR. McCONNEL: For the record, Judge, I make the same
6 |lobjection to this being hearsay for the reason it has not been
7 || connected up to show that my client was present at the scene.
8 | THE COURT: It will be overruled subject to being
9 || comnected up.
10 MR.McCONNEL: I'll ask for a continuing objection to
ll |i this line of questioning.
12 (Whereupon, record at the bench completed, proceedings
@ 13 resumed as follows)
14 Q. (by Mr. Burns) Mrs. Brown, the question I just asked you
is llwas to tell the jury what statements or words you heard spoken to
-16 || people on the front porch?
17 A. I heard someone say "show you how to treat our sister".
18 Q. I couldn't hear you, ma'am. |
19 A. Someone said "show you how to treat our sister". ;
20 Q. "Show you how to treat our sister." Is there anything else
21 |} that you heard?
22 A. Nothing except someone asked "did you call the sheriff"
2 ic?
| nr
23 |} and we said "yes."
24 Q. Did you hear any of the people tell Possum to get back in
” 25 the house?
: Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
{408) 247-3671
On
24
25
A. Yes, he was at the door and I heard him say that "three on
one wasn't fair".
Q. Who said that?
A. My husband. So he saw three I guess. And I was trying to
get him to get back away from the door beeauee I was afraid he
might get hurt. So in a few minutes the sheriff's office called
and they wanted to know if the disturbance was still going on.
phone?
A. My husband.
Q. Where were you when he went to answer the phone?
A. I was back in about the middle of the living room.
r Q. While your husband went to get the phone tell the jury wha
you saw?
A. Well, when he asked if the disturbance was still going on
went into the bedroom and I could see a car light. A car was
parked, backed into our driveway, just barely into our driveway.
Q. When your husband had gone to the phone your husband asked
you if they were still there, is that right?
A. No--well, yes, after the sheriff wanted to know if the
disturbance was still going on.
Q. Did your husband ask you if it was still going on?
A. Yes.
Q. And you looked out what window?
A. The bedroom window.
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(403) 247-3671
Q. Slow down. When the phone rang then who went to answer the
“I
t
Q. What did you see out your bedroom window?
A. A car was backed into the driveway but I couldn't see what
the car was. I could only see some lights. Just as I looked the
car took off to the south and I could hear voices out there so I
knew they had left the porch. And they went out past our garden
gate, just past the edge of the yard. And the car was parked out
!
there and I could hear these voices and someone said "put him in
1s
the trunk", and someone else said "no", and then the other voice
or some voice said "yeah, put him in there."' Then it sounded like.
I heard the trunk lid slam down.
Q. After hearing what you thought was the trunk slam down what
happened to the automobile at that point?
A. It took off south toward town.
Q. It went west out of your driveway and then south over the
blacktop?
A. Well, it was just barely in the driveway. All it had to
do was pull up and go south, just turn south. --
Q. Seeing the automobile leave and go south back toward |
Chickasha? | |
A. Yeah. | “#4
Q. At that point you communicated that to your husband, is
that right?
A. Yeah, I told him that they were out past the garden gate.
Q. Is there anything else that you recall that night, Mrs.
Brown that you think the jury should know?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER |
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE ~
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
tANe\ 247 KEW
24
25
ben
A. No, we just supposed that they picked them up between there
and town.
Q. Mrs. Brown, did you see anything in your front yard the
following day or after this event occured, items which were
unusual?
A. There was things scattered all over the yard but of course
we had two dogs there while we were gone. Then there was
neighbor's dogs came in and they had different items of clothing
over the yard, a cap thing. a
Q. You said a cap?
A. There was a cap.
Q. Anything else? |
A. Oh, just clothes. But there were old clothes all around.
People dump stuff out by the river and the dogs get it and drag
it up in the yard when you're not there. |
Q. Mrs.. Brown, did you observe after this thing occured in the
early morning hours of January the 23rd, did you observe any.-stain
or items upon your porch? The carpet on your front porch?
A. No. |
Q. Did the 0.S.B.1. take your carpet? see
A.. When they came to check two or three weeks later they found
and we found a bullet, a shell, empty shell, right in front of the
ee 2
o 9
porch. And they found a spot of blood on the rug I was told.’ |
Q. How large a stain are we talking about on the rug in your
front porch?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
24
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A. It was only--just a small spot of blood.
Q. Using our common sense, a person that had their. throat cut
on your front porch was there a quantity of blood or a stain
there large enough for a person to have had their throat cut on
your front porch?
A. Not on the front porch, no.
Q. How many shots did you hear that night?
A. One, one shot.
MR. BURNS: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnell.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. McCONNEL:
' Q. Mrs. Brown, before I go over there to the lecturn to
continue my questioning, while I'm standing here close to Wayne I
will ask you to take a look and since you've seen this boy in court
before is it obvoius to you that he's grown four or five inches
since then? _
A. I couldn't say because I didn't really see him when he was
here last.
Q. Did you see anybody, did you see this boy that night at
your house?
A. I couldn't identify any of them.
Q. Okay. Now who called the sherrif, Mrs. Brown, you or
Possum? |
A. My husband, Malcolm. I call him Malcolm now, I don't call
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
remey 949 NED
24
25
him Possum.
Q.
that night?
A.
Q.
A.
come.
A.
to bed
Q-
A.
You call him Malcolm. Okay. Did the sheriff come out
No, they didn't.
Come out the next day?
No.
It was two weeks?
Must have been about a couple weeks.
Two weeks.
We left the porch light on all night thinking they would
You -were expecting them to come, weren't you?
We just supposed they picked them up on the way to town.
You know now that they didn't?
That's right.
Did you have any dogs barking that night?
Well, we had two dogs but one was on the porch when we went |
and it was the one I guess that barked because it run off. |
Ran away from your house?
Well, I figured when the man ran up to the porch for help
I figured he scared the dog and the dog barked once and then took
off and then I heard the gunshot all at the same time. So it
could have been when he ran up there that it scared him and he
took off. He was just a big pup.
Q.
What kind of dog was he?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
antl new ame
24.
25
A. German Shepherd.
Q. And he wasn't shot, was he?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any impression or any idea, Mrs. Brown, that
any of these people were there to do anything to you or to Mr.
Brown?
A. No, I didn't. But you never know when a gun is around
somebocy is liable to get hurt.
Q. Now when you and your husband went to the front door
explain to the Court and jury here exactly what you did. Did you
all peak through a glass in your door or did you open your wooden
door?
Hr OA. Oh, he made a mistake, he opened the door and stood in the
door.
Q. Stood in the open door?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he still have the screen door between him? 7
A. Yes, but he had it open partially. He just thought it was
somebody drunk and they was trying to get them to behave.
Q. All right. Does this happen often? Had it happened .
before? |
A. No. *
Q- People go down there on the Washita River and party and’?
make noise?
A. Well, they have partied a lot around the river but we're
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
503
not bothered with them much.
Q. But your first impression was that that's kind of what you
thought it was?
A. Yeah.
Q. Drunks that wondered up there. And I believe that vou
stated that your husband said that three on one didn't seem to
be right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you say that this bullet, meaning the brass part of the
shell, not the lead, right. When I referred to the bullet--I'll
just call it a shell, was found on your porch two weeks later, is
that correct?
A. It wasn't on the porch it was out from the steps a ways.
P i y
About how far?
A I don't know. I'd say three or four feet maybe.
Q. Four feet?
A Probably. _
Q. And which happened first to the best of your memory, Mrs.
Brown, the gunshot or the knock on your door?
A. The dog barking and the gunshot is what got me out of bed.
I don't know if they ever knocked on the door, he just hollered to
a
call the sheriff. He might not have even knocked on it.
Q. You don't particularly remember any knocking on the door?
A. No, I don't.
Q. But whoever it was wanted you to call the sheriff?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
That's right.
A
Q. And who called, you or Mr. Brown?
A My husband, Malcolm.
Q. Did you or your husband for any reason at all do any looking
around on your own in the two or three weeks before the other
people came out there, the sheriff and the 0.S.B.I1. trying to
figure out what had gone on?
A. Well, we wondered what--we wondered who it was and what
happened.
Q. But you didn't particularly, you didn't look hard enough to
find this shell casing, is that right?
A. Well, I had even raked around the step out there with a
“leaf rake. You know how leaves pile up while you're gone and I
didn't find it.
Q. All right. And just from your normal routine you also then
didn't spot any blood on the porch?
A. . No.
Q. Or on your carpet, is that correct?
A. The reason was I had put strips of new carpet down on the
porch because I'd bought a new rug for the house and wanted to
protect it, sol had taken new strips of carpeting and taped them
together. so when the F.B.I. found the blood it was just a speck _
underneath the--seemed to be underneath the rug.
Q. Now let's be sure we've got our time sequences straight.
In. other words you changed that carpet on your porch?
Penny Moser, C.5.Hh.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
> O >
Q.
5905
No, I didn't.
You didn't change it?
No, I didn't.
So the night you're talking about when you got home from
your trip you had carpet on your porch, is that right?
A.
QO Pp OF Oo YP
A.
Right. Right.
Now are you talking about this outdoor type carpet?
No, its iust plain carpet taped together.
Okay. And what color was it?
Green.
Green. Was it a shag or just a
No, it wasn't a shag, it was some of that other stuff.
What size piece of carpet was that, ma'am?
I don’t know. It was several strips, just enough to cover
the porch. I just put it on there and cut it off and taped it
together.
Q.
‘Probably so, its around six feet, yes.
And what size is your porch? a
Oh, L'd say it was about the size of that table maybe, only
So its about six or seven feet long and four feet wide?
an 7!
Was that rug big enough to cover all of it?
=
. dy,
Yes, it was covered.
And just in every day affairs you didn't notice any blood
on -that carpet?
Penny Moser, C€.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, SKLAHOMA 73005
1ane\) 747 2ats
No.
Q. And that carpet was there on January 22nd and its the same
carpet that was there when the 0.S.B.I. man came out?
A. Right. And they took it.
Q They took it with them?
A That's right.
Q. Not just a piece of it?
A Took it all.
Q. Entire carpet. Now they were the first ones to come out
and do any investigation, is that correct?
A. That's right. Well, I think the deputies came out.
Q. - When was that?
A. I don't know. Two or three weeks later.
Q. All right. Did you recognize or tell anything about the
car that was out in your driveway? The color?
A. You couldn't see the car at all, it was pitch black, it was
a terribly dark night. And real still. You could hear voices
but you couldn't see a thing.
Q. No moon?
A. No.
Q. A lot of cloud cover? :
A. Well, we've had snow, you know, and it was, I just know it
was real dark.
Q. And I know your husband talked to these people and said
something to them about three on one being unfair, but did you talk
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
pane\ 24759 2Ee
24
25
597
or say anything?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Were you close enough to hear their voices?
A. I could hear mumbling and then the one that said that
"show you how to treat our sister."
Q. Would you be able to recognize those voices if you heard
them again?
A. I don't know.
MR. McCONNEL: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Burns.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
~ Q. Mrs. Brown, who actually went up into the doorway and opened
y P y I
the door into your house there on the porch?
A. I don't know.
Q. From the inside
A. Oh, you mean my husband, well,he did from the inside. _
Q. Did you ever go up close to the door and spoke to the
people like your husband did? _
A. Not that close, no.
Q. As far as who had the better position or opportunity to
see outside your front door, you or your husband?
A. My husband did. I was trying to stay back away from the
door. |
MR. BURNS: Thank you, ma'am. No further questions.
Penny Moser, 0.5...
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
THE COURT: Mr. McConnel.
MR. McCONNEL: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You can be excused. Call your next witness.
BENNY McCARTHY
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
Q. State your name, please.
A. Benny McCarthy.
Q. Mr. McCarthy, you're going to have to talk right into that
microphone. You have a soft voice.
~ A. Benny McCarthy.
Q. Where do you live, sir?
A. 412 North Fourth.
Q. In what city?
A. Chickasha. -_
Q. Mr. McCarthy, I'd ask you to direct your attention back
to the date of January--the early morning hours of January 23rd,
1983. Can you tell the jury what you were doing at that time? .
A. Riding around with a friend.
. Who was that friend?
. And after you rode around with your friend where did you go7
Q oe
A. Terry Smith. Senet ee
Q
A
Dorothy Thompson's.
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
"OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
QO PF Oo Fr Oo PF 2
Where is Dorothy Thompson's house at?
Over there on Illinois.
About two blocks north of this courthouse, is that correct?
Yes. |
You went to Dorothy Thompson's house?
Yes.
Approximately what time did you arrive at Dorothy Thompson's
About 1:30 or 2:00.
Did you have a watch on, Benny?
No. |
When you're telling time is that an estimate, Benny?
Yes.
Was it 1:30 in the morning or 1:30 in the afternoon?
In the morning.
When the--the person that had been riding around with you,
is that person with you? _
A.
A.
At Dorothy's?
Yes.
No.
When you first got to Dorothy's tell the jury how many
are there at Dorothy Thompson's location or her residence?
Two. oo
How are those houses referred to?
The big house and the little house.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-2671 ?
Q. Which house did you go into out there?
A. The big one.
Q. When you went in the big house what people did you see?
A. Tony, Bobby, Wayne and Dorothy and Cindy and a couple of
her friends.
Q. You're going to have to speak up because the jurors are
having a hard time hearing you. When you went into the house,
again, give us the full names of the people that you saw?
A. Bobby Glass, Tony Mann, Wayne Thompson, Cindy Thompson and
I don't know any of her friend's name, and Dorothy Thompson.
Q The last name was who?
A. Dorothy Thompson.
Q Tell the jury where you saw if at all Wayne Thompson?
A In his bedroom.
Q. And the person known to you as Wayne Thompson, do you see
him in this courtroom right now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you point to him and tell him what kind of those he's
wearing right now?
A. He's wearing a black and grey and maroon shirt, brown pants,
Q. Again, I want to make sure therecord is clear, Is this
Wayne Thompson? (indicating)
A. No.
Q. Is this Wayne Thompson? (indicating)
A. Yes,
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
yhear him. Mr. McCarthy, you need to speak up. Would you mind
~ 511
Q. The same Wayne Thompson that you saw in the morning of
January 23rd, 1983?
A. Yes,
MR. BURNS: Your Honor, we'd ask that the record reflect
that the witness has identified the defendant, Wayne Thompson.
Q. Mr. McCarthy, when you saw him in his bedroom describe what |
he was doing and his appearance when you saw Wayne Thompson?
A. He looked upset.
Q What drew you to that coriclusion?
A. Well, he just looked upset to me, you know, crying, you know
Q That's what I'm asking you.
THE COURT: Could you repeat that answer again. I couldn’
standing down by the last juror and then if you hear him maybe we
can all hear him. If you'll ask that question again.
Q. What was he doing that made you draw the conclusion that he
was upset? _
A. He was crying.
Q. Mr. McCarthy, did you have any conversation with Mr.
Thompson?
A. I asked him what was wrong. .
Q. What did he say? | a
A. He said nothing, | Oe
Q. After --at the time you saw him how was he dressed and what
was his appearance?
Penny Moser, C.5.R. °
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(ANB) 94757 7 Ee
24
25
A. He was dressed clean as far as I know, you know, what he
was wearing I can't recall.
THE COURT: Mr, McCarthy, please speak up. Don't worry
about the microphone at all. Just answer the question. If you'll
repeat that question.
Q. You talked about how he was dressed?
A. How he was dressed?
Q. Yes, when you saw him.
A. I can't remember how he was dressed, what color his clothes
were or anything.
Q. As to whether or not he was wearing wet or damp clothing,
could you tell?
A. No, he wasn't wearing none.
Q. Did you see any wet or damp clothing while you were in that
house?
A. No.
Q. Do you. remember whether or not any clothing being washed
while you were at the house?
A. No.
Q. After your initial contact with Wayne Thompson when he was
?
in the bedroom what did you do and where did you go?
A. Went into the kitchen.
Q Who was in the kitchen? ‘y
A, Tony and Bobby, |
Q Again, give the full names, please?
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
24
25
‘Keene. In that the conversations relate to the men who actually
A, Tony Mann and Bobby Glass,
Q. While, you were in the kitchen what did you hear Tony Mann
and Bobby Glass say?
MR. McCONNEL: Approach the bench, Judge?
THE COURT: Yes,
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
MR. McCONMEL: Comes now the defendant, Your Honor, and
objects to this testimony for the reason it calls to hearsay
outside the presence of the defendant.
MR. BURNS: Your Honor, we'd have the same response Mr.
Baresel made on the record in regard to the conspiracy case showing
this being the immediately preceding the actual death of Charles
conspired together. The testimony being relevant to what the
total conspiracy was. They conspired-to kill Charles Keene,
Conspired to conceal his body. Conspired to do all of the acts
with which they're charged, And that the testimony would be--
relevant in its total context,
THE COURT: I'll overrule your objection and note your
exception, aah
. Pe)
MR. McCONNEL: Okay. I don't want to make a big issue
in front of the jury. I'll just have a continuing objection to...
cet Ape
~ « -_ Ts
SL tue
this line of testimony.
——
‘cas
THE COURT: I'll note your exception, yes.
(Whereupon, record at the bench completed, proceedings
Penny Moser, £.5..
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
514
resumed as follows)
Q. (by Mr. Burns) Mr. McCarthy, what did Tony Mann and Bobby
Glass, what were they talking about when you were in the kitchen?
A. Said they had to go out there to the river and see if the
body was floating and get rid of the gun.
Q. Can you repeat that real loud, You can tell when the jurors
are leaning in their seats they're having a hard time hearing you,
Benny, so speak up loud, please.
A. Said they had to go out and check on the body and see if it
was floating and get rid of the gun,
Q. They had to go out and check on the body to see if it was
floating?
o A. Yes.
Q. “What else?
A. And get rid of the gun.
Q. I can't hear you.
A. And get rid of the gun. _
Q. One more time, louder, please? /
A. To get rid of the gun.
Q. To get rid of the gun,
A. ‘Yes,
Q, Is that all you can remember they were talking about? .
A, (no response) | |
Q. Do you know what--did they make any veference to what body
that had to see if it had floated up?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 -
515
That night?
Yes.
Well, Charles'.
QO +” HO Pp
They made reference to Charles?
MR, McCONNEL: We'll object to this, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be overruled.
Q. Benny, how long were you there in the house when you heard
those kinds of statements and that conversation?
A, About thirty minutes all total.
Q. Where was your sister, Charlesetta Garcia?
A. In the kitchen.
Q. Those people that were in the kitchen were your sister,
|Charlesetta Garcia, Tony Mann and Bobby Glass?
A, Yes.
Q. After hearing these convetwations when you were there about
thirty minutes where did you go?
A. To my house.
Q. When was the next time that you had any contact with any of
the people that you saw at the Thompson house on that early morning
portion of January 23rd?
A. About eight or nine that morning,
Q. Who did you have contact with?
A. Bobby Glass,
Q. Just tell the jury in your own words how: you had occasion
to come back into contact with Mr, Glass?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 } {
24
25
A.
He come by and asked me if I would ride out there to the
river with him.
MR. McCONNEL: I have an objection to this,Your Honor,
as previously stated.
-Q.
THE COURT: All right. It will be overruled.
Bobby Glass came by your house to see if you wanted to ride
the river with him?
Yes.
What people if any were with him at that time?
Me and Vicky.
Vicky who?
Keene.
Of your own personal knowledge who was Vicky Keene in
relationship to Charles Keene?
A.
> oP PPK
Q.
His ex-wife.
What type automobile was being used to go out to the river?
Dodge Ram.
Can't hear you?
Dodge Ram.
A Dodge pickup?
Yeah,
You, Vicky Keene, and Bobby Glass after they picked you up
where did you go? -
A.
Q.
Out to the Washita River.
Tell the jury where at on the Washita River?
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A.
jury how you would get to the location you went to?
did you actually do, how did you come off the highway?
to when you come off the highway?
Back east.
As you walk in this courtroom right now, Benny, tell the
Take this road here and go straight on out east.
The highway right here on the south side fo the courthouse?
Yes.
Go that that highway and you go east?
Yes.
And you go east until you hit the Washita River, is that
Yes.
When you get to that location where the river is at what
Pulled off on to a gravel road.
Where is that road at when you pull off the highway?
Up there by the Washita River.
Can't hear you? | _--
By the Washita River.
You're on the east bound lane, which is the south portion
four lane highway. And you get off on a gravel road
off the highway.
On the south side of the road.
Okay. Where does that gravel road or the dirt road lead
Underneath the bridges.
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(40S) 247-3671
24
25
Q. The road leads underneath the bridges crossing the river,
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was driving the pickup?
A. Bobby Glass.
Q. Bobby actually drove to this location?
A. Yes.
Q. What conversations if any were being had in that pickup
between yourself and Bobby Glass and Vicky Keene while you were
going out to the river?
MR. McCONNEL: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. BURNS: I agree, Your Honor. I'll rephrase the
r-question.
Q. Tell the jury what statements if any Mr. Glass made
relating to the murder of Charles Keene while you were in that
pickup?
A. (ilo response)
Q. Did Bobby Glass talk about the murder of Cherles Keene on
the way out there?
A. No.
Q. When you got to the river what were you supposed to be
doing out there?
A. Checking on fishing lines.
Q. Can't hear you, Benny?
A. Checking on fishing lines.
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. What were you supposed to be doing out there?
MR. McCONNEL: Object as being repetitious, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. I'1l allow you to answer the
question.
A. Could you repeat that?
Q. Speak up, Benny.
A. Can you repeat the question?
Q. When you, Bobby Glass, and Vicky Keene went to the river
in that Dodge pickup and went under that bridge, for what reason
did you go out there?
A. Check on the body. But at first it was to check on the
fishing lines, that's what Bobby told me.
tr Q. Bobby first told you you were going to check on the fishing
lines? |
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then when you got out there what were you doing out there
really? _
A. Well, he looked, we got out and walked down there and he
looked.
Q. Speak right into the nicrépuone, Benny?
A. We got out, walked down yonder, he looked around and then
we went back to the pickup and then we left.
Q. What were you looking around for?
A. At that time I didn't know.
Q. Benny, tell the jury what you know about any fences or
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-2471
gates at that location leading into the road to the bridge?
A. Yeah, there was a fence to get underneath the bridge.
Q. What?
A. I said there was a fence that you had to move so you
could get down underneath. the bridge.
Q. Did you put the fence back up when you came out?
A. I can't remember.
Q. You said the time you went to the river you thought you
went down there to check fishing lines and Bobby looked out across
the water, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell the jury when if ever you found or had a discussion
with Bobby Glass in relationship to why he checked the river?
A. That evening about 4:30 or 5:00.
Q. That evening 4:30 or 5:00 what did Bobby Glass tell you?
A. That he had shot him and Wayne cut his throat and they
took him up there and through him into the river. _
Q. I want you to repeat your answer one more time, Benny,
because we're still having a hard time hearing you.
MR. McCONNEL: We object to that, Your Honor.
TEE COURT: Be overruled. I'm observing for the purpose
of the record that the jury is having a difficult time hearing.
Q. After the evening of January 23rd where were you when you
had the conversation with Bobby Glass?
A. In front of Dorothy's house.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
-CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANAOARKO, CKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. These trucks are causing such a disturbance, Benny, its
hard for us to hear. Where were you again?
A. At Dorothy's house.
Q. You say you were at Dorothy's house?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in a car, standing outside, or where were you at?
A. In our pickup.
Q. And repeat the conversation you had with Bobby Glass?
A. Well, he told me that he had shot him and that Wayne cut
his throat then they took him up there to the river.
Q. Bobby Glass told you that he had shot Charles Keene, is
that right?
al
A. Right.
Q. And that Wayne Thompson had cut Charles Keene's throat?
A. Yes.
Q. They had put him in the Washita River where you had gone
that morning? _
A. Yes.
Q. What conversation did you have about why they'd cut his
throat?
A. So the fish could eat his body.
Speak up, please.
So his body could be consumed from fish.
So his body could be consumed from the fish?
> O PP 0
Yes.
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
24
25
Q. What people were identified to you as those people
involved in this murder? ;
A. Tony Mann, Bobby Glass, Wayne Thompson and Ricky Jones.
Q. As to the four men that were involved in the murder of
Charles Keene, what did Bobby Glass tell you about the entire
sequence of events when they actually picked up Charles Keene,
what happened?
MR. M
i?)
OQ
‘o)
a
"Z
m4
|
We object to this question on the same
grounds as the previaus objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A. He told me that they picked him up and at first they was
trying, they was going to scare him. And anyway, Bobby and
‘Charles had a fight and Bobby had the gun and the gun went off.
And said that Wayne cut his throat and Wayne and Rick drug his
body to the river.
QO. Where did he say the fight and the gun went off, did he
tell you where that occured at?
A. Possum Brown's.
Q. Possum Brown's.
A. Yes.
Q. Benny, the gun that was used to kill Charles Keene, when
did you first see that gun?
A. The next day.
Q. Where did you see the gun at?
A. Tony Mann's house.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Q. That's the little house, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Who had the gun?
A. Tony.
Q. How did you have occasion to see the gun?
A. Well, Tony asked me if I could sell it for hin.
Q. Tony Mann asked you to sell the gun?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time did you know it was the gun that killed
Charles Keene?
A. No.
-Q. When did you first learn that it was the gun that killed
Charles Keene?
A. After I already took the gun back after I went and tried
to sell it.
Q. I got the question out of sequence for you, Benny, but
when you were first shown the gun by Tony Mann and he asked you to
sell the gun, at that time did you actually take possession of the
gun?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you take the gun to?
A. Charles Camp.
Q. And for what reason did you take the gun to Charles Camp?
A. To sell it to him.
q. How much did you offer to sell it to Charles Camp for?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
24
25
QO Pp
Q.
$250.00.
Did Mr. Camp buy it for $250.00. .
No.
When he refused to buy it for that amount what did you co
with the gun?
A.
Q.
Take it back
Who did you take it back to?
Tony.
Tony who?
Tony Mann.
Where at?_
At his house.
You took it back to him at his house and what conversation
you have with Tony Mann about that gun?
Well, Later on that night that’s when I found out that was
gun.
Just say it in your own words and try to repeat the -
conversation as best you can how it was revealed to you at that
point when you returned the gun to Tony Mann that that was the
gun that killed Charles Keene?
I found that out later on that night though.
Who told you?
Tony.
What did Tony say?
He said this is the gun they killed him with.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICiAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3871
24
25
Q. Can't hear you?
A. Said that was the gun that they kilied him with.
Q. Did you ever see the gun after that, Benny?
A. No.
Q. As far as your personal knowledge, not what you've heard,
as far as your personal knowledge, do you know what happened to the
gun after that?
A. Yes.
QC. How do you know, Benny?
A. Well, Bobby come back and told me that Charles Camp bought
it for $125.00.
Q. In your conversations with Bobby Glass, this is on the
afternoon of January 23rd, what did Bobby say about who it was that
took the body out into the river?
A. Ricky and Wayne.
q. Can't hear you.
A. Ricky Jones and Wayne Thompson. 7
Q. Ricky Jones and Wayne Thompson. What did he say about how
the body was anchored on the river?
A. Was tied on with bricks.
Q. The body was tied on to with bricks?
A. House bricks.
Q. Pardon?
A. House bricks.
Q. House bricks. The gun that you tried to sell for Tony Mann,
Penny Moser, 0.5.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
N
24
25
do you know the difference between a revolver and an automatic?
A. Yeah.
Q. What kind of gun was it that you tried to sell for Tony
Mann?
A It was a revolver.
q. A revolver. Describe what you're calling a revolver?
A. With that --what the hell they call it-- when the bullet
is right here, you know, that deal turns around. (indicating)
Q. What color was the gun, Benny?
A. Had a brown wooden handle on it and it was kind of a dark
blue.
Q. Do you remember testifying in the preliminary hearing in
|.this matter, Benny, back in April the 26th, 1983?
A. Yes.
Q. This is page 209 of the transcript, Your HOnor, and Mr.
McConnel. I ask you the question on page 209, line 13, I asked
you "Was it an automatic or a revolver". Do you remember telling
me at that time the gun was an automatic? -
A. Yes, they're both the same to me.
Q. They're both the same to you?
A. Yeah.
Q Benny, I'm holding in my hand what is marked as State's
Exhibit Number 3, I'd like for you to describe the gun that Tony
Mann asked you to sell in relationship to the gun that I'm holding
in front of you?
Penny Moser, €.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. Its a lot bigger than that.
Q. Can't hear you?
A. Its a little bit bigger than that.
Q. Its the same way that you came with your testimony from
being a revolver today, when back in April of this year it was an
automatic, is that right, Benny?
A. Yes.
Q What?
A. Yes.
Q Why did you change your testimony, Benny?
A. Really I don't know that much about the gun myself.
Q. The question was, Benny, why did you change your testimony
ia
from April to today?
A. I:.don't know.
Q. Benny, you didn't want to testify in these proceedings,
did you?
A. Not really.
Q. Can't hear you?
A. No.
Q. Benny, what is your association or relationship with Wayne
Thompson?
A. Friend.
Q Can't hear you?
A. Friend.
Q He's your friend. Is that right? How long have you known
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247.271
r OO PP A
him?
A.
Q
A
Q.
A
C
Almost all of his life.
How old are you, Benny?
Twenty.
Wayne is sixteen, is that right?
Yes.
As to the night of the early morning hours of January 23rd,
were you drinking or anything, taking any type of substance,
Benny,
A.
Q.
that would effect your memory?
Drinking.
What were you drinking?
Budweiser.
How much had you had to drink?
About a case and a half.
The following day, January the 23rd, what if anything or
any kind of substance did you consume that would effect your
ability to remember?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
{inaudible response)
Can't hear you, Benny.
When I was picked up and questioned?
No, the day that you went out to the river with Bobby Glass
and Bobby stood out on the side of the bank and looked out across
the river?
A.
Q.
Did I take anything then?
Yes.
Penny Moser, €.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. No.
Q. You weren't drinking or taking anything then?
A. No.
Q. Benny, as to any substance that you may have ever consumed
to effect your mind or your memory or your ability to recall,
was Charles Keene a friend of yours?
A. No.
Q. Its been alleged that Charles Keene was a paint sniffer,
have you ever sniffed paint with Charles Keene?
A. No.
Q. What was your answer?
A. No.
~ Q. Did you have any other conversations, Benny, with any of the
other defendants -- at any time did you have any conversation with
Wayne Thompson first of all about the death of Charles Keene?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any conversations with any people other than
Bobby Glass and Tony Mann that you've already related to us about
the death of Charles Keene?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any conversations with Ricky Jones about the
death of Charles Keene?
A. No.
Q. Again, Benny, have you thought about why you have changed
your testimony from back in April about that gun being an auto-
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 ;
24
25
matic and today when you told the jury it was a revolver.
MR. McCONNEL: I'm going to object to that question,
Your Honor, he's answered it.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. BURNS: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honor.
I have no further questions.
MR. McCONNEL: Can we approach the bench.
(Whereupon, discussion was held off the record and
proceedings resumed as follows)
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I admonish
you it is your duty not to converse among yourselves or with any
one else on the subject connected with this trial. Nor to form or
Lexpress any opinion of this case until it is finally submitted to
you. if anyone attempts to speak with you please advise me.
We'll stand in recess.
Mr. McCarthy, you're admonished not to discuss your testimony
with anyone on this recess.
MR. McCARTHY: Do I got to stay rere?
THE COURT: Yes, you do.
(Whereupon, recess was taken and proceedings resumed
as follows) |
‘THE COURT: Show the presence of the jury, and the
presence of the State. Presence of the defendant and his attorney.
You realize you're under the same oath you took prior to the
recess.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. Would paint sniffing effect your ability to remember
| clearly? i
A. It would if I did.
Q. And have you ever sniffed any paint?
A. No.
Q. Excuse me?
A. No.
Q. You never have. Now then, Benny, the first time that you
ever said anything about this case is when you were stuck in jail
and thought you were going to be there for quite a while, isn't
it?
Yes.
That was right here in this building?
Yes.
You remember who picked you up?
What?
Do you remember who picked you up and arrested you?
O.S.B.I.
Do you remember their names?
No.
And when they picked you up they didn't tell you when you
were going to get out?
A.
Q.
A.
No.
Your answer was no?
Yes.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-367+
24
25
Q. And you were actually locked in the cell, weren't you?
A. No.
Q. Beg your pardon?
A. No.
Q. No you were not?
A. No.
Q. Were you handcuffed?
A. No.
Q. Were you taken to the sheriff's office or were you taken up
into the jail area?
A. Sheriff's office.
Q. At that time did you think and believe that you were going
‘to be taken on upstairs to jail?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you avoid being taken upstairs to the jail and put
in 2 cell?
A. Well, he told me, you know, that they knew I knew all this
and somebody had already told them what I knew and
(inaudible response)
THE COURT: If you'll start over and speak clearly.
Q. Let me repeat the question for you, Benny, and then if you
will give us a loud answer so we can all hear way back here.
How did you avoid being taken upstairs to jail and being locked
in the cell?
A. By telling them.
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. By starting to talk, right?
A
No, not right off, about six hours after that.
Fa)
this, what time of day was it when you first were detained.
other words, when you were arrested and stopped from moving around
and doing what you wanted to do. What time a day was it?
A. About 4:30 or 5:00.
Q. In the afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you when you were arrested?
A. fy house.
Q. And that is right down the street here, isn't it?
Yes.
About two blocks from the courthouse, right?
Yeah.
And how many people came by there and got you?
Two. -
Two. And were you aware that those people had guns?
Huh?
.
Were you aware that the people arrested you had guns?
Yeah.
Were you scared?
No.
You were not scared?
Pr Or Oo PO Fr OP Oo FP Oo YP
No.
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Six hours after that. So, make sure everybody understand
In
Re.
23
24
Don PP OD PP A PF LH
O PP HOH FP A PP A
suits?
A.
You've been arrested before and it doesn't scare you?
Yes.
Does it scare you to be arrested?
No.
It does not?
No.
All right. Were these men in uniform or were they wearing
Suits.
Both of them?
Yes.
How did they identify themselves to you?
Said they was 0.S.B.I1. agents.
Do you remember what day of the week this was?
No.
Did they start talking to you there at the residence or did
they immediately say they were going to take you somewhere and
talk to you?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Well, they asked me if I'd come down to the courthouse.
What did you say?
Told them I didn't really want to.
And did they tell you they were going to take you whether
you wanted to or not?
A.
Q.
No.
So did they let you just walk on down here?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. No, they brought me.
Q. Is there any particular reason why you didn't just stay
there at your own home and do the interview there?
A. I don't guess they wanted to.
Q. Now then when you went to the Sheriif's Office here at
the courthouse you were unable to get up and leave, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. You knew that if you tried to leave that interview they
would stop you, rignt?
A. Yes.
Q. And you stated that from the time you were picked up at
4:30 or 5:00, you mentioned six hours, you mean there was six hours
-before they turned you lose or six hours before you gave a
statement?
A. Well, it wasn't that long before I gave a statement. It
was about four and a half hours.
Q. Until you finished the statement or until you began the
statement?
A. Before I began.
Q. And how did you pass that four and a half hours from 4:30
or 5:00 until the time you Began your statement? Did you stay
down in the sheriff's office or did you go up to the bars upstairs?
A. Stayed down in the sheriff's office.
Q. And were you just out in the lobby or reception area or
were you back in a closed room?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 . ;
24
25
A. Back here,
Q, You mean you were over in this part of the courthouse away
from the sheriff's office?
A. Yeah.
Q. And were you in a small room or a large room?
A. It was pretty snall.
Q. And who was present in that room with you besides the two
agents?
A, The old boy that took my statement.
Q. I beg your pardon?
A. The old boy that took my statement.
Q. You mean a court reporter?
A. ( no response)
Q. Okay. Now, remember, Benny, we're not talking about yet
sitting there taking your statement. We're still talking about
how you passed the four and a half hours from the time you were
first picked up until you started your statement. At what point
did you realize that you were going to have to say something in
order to get lose? What time of the evening?
A,
2 Fr 2 PrP Oo
I don*t know what time it was.
Could you tell if it was light or dark?
og.
No.
So you... oS
It was kind of dark though. |
I beg your pardon?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. It was about getting dark.
Q. About getting dark. This is the winter time, about 6:00
o'clock or so?
A. Something like that,
Q. How did you become aware that you were going to have to
make a statement in order to be released?
A. Well, they told me if I didn't tell them what I knew that
they could get me for accessory.
Q. For accessory? What did you understand accessory to mean?
A. (no response)
Q. You didn't understand?
A. Well, yeah, they could get me for being in with them,
~Q. Being in with. them?
A. Well, knowing about it and not saying anything.
Q. And at this point were you worried or not worried?
A. I was worried.
Q. You were worried. And what did you understand would happen
if you didn't give them a statement? |
A. That they could give me time for it.
Q. They could give you time for it. And what did you mean,
give you time for what? For not talking or for something else?
A. For not talking.
Q. For not talking to them, Now during this four and a half
hours did someone stay with. you constantly and talk to you a did.
they leave you alone part of the time?
Penny Maser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. Somebody was there.
Q, All the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you given anything to eat?
A. No.
Q. You were not given anything to eat?
A. No.
Q. Did you see anybody that you were familiar with, family
members or friends or anything like that?
A. No.
Q. So its fair to say you were isolated, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you were first taken there was it your intention
not to say anything?
A. Yes.
Q. And during the four and a half hours your intentions
changed, is that correct? -
A. Yes.
Q. And you gave a statement in front of the court reporter who
swore you to tell the truth on that day, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were released later on that night, is that right?
A, No, |
Q. You were not released?
A. Huh-uh,
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247.2871
When were you released from jail?
About 4:30 or 5:00 the next day.
The next afternoon?
Yes.
Do you know who authorized your release?
Yeah, my father come down.
Did you have to post a bond?
> O FF OH Ff HD PF A
NO.
ye)
But you say you got released when your father came down
there, is that right?
A. Yes,
Q. Okay. Were you given anything to eat after you concluded
.your statement that night?
A. No.
Q. Now then, Benny, to clear up one thing in your testimony
a while ago, you said that on the evening of January 22nd you
were riding around with Jerry Smith, And you remember testifying
before the preliminary hearing on April 25th in this same court-
room, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Referring to page 220 at line 6 the question was. asked
"who had you been with’ and your answer was: "Eddie Robertson"?
A. Yes,
Q. You remember that question being asked and that answer being
given?
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 4
A. Yeah. Well, both of them was with us but Eddie left.
Q. I beg your pardon.
A. I said all three of us was together but Eddie left later
on that night.
Q. So you were actually with all of them then?
A. Yeah, but mostly with Terry.
Q. Okay. But you didnt’ remember Terry Smith on April 25th,
is that right?
A, Right.
Q. Now then I believe you stated that when you saw Wayne
Thompson at his house, of course, to try and nelp everybody keep
this in perspective Wayne just lived right around the corner from
you, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Or did live. He's on an east and west street and if you
live right around the corner on the north and south street, is
thabd right? _
A. Yes.
Q. And in a distant sort of way you're related, is that
correct?
A. To who?
Q. Well, isn't Jackie Sanders your cousin?
A. Yeah.
Q. And he's married to one of Wayne's sisters?
A. Yes,
‘ Penny Maser, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Q. Is that right?
A, Yeah.
-
Q. Now, I believe you stated on the day you gave this statement
to the 0.S.B.I. agents on February 17th, in this courthouse you
had had half a case of beer to drink, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is half a case of beer, that translates into twelve cans,
is that correct
A. Yes,
Q. And did you notice yourself to be intoxicated or effected
in any way such as steps being unsteady or speech being slurred?
A. No.
~ Q. Didn't bother you?
A. No.
Q. Now the night that you were there at the Thompson's house,
this is Saturday night, right?
A. Yeah, _
Q. You'd been with Terry Smith and what was the other boy's
name?
A. Eddie Robertson.
Q. Had been out partying with them?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did that involve taking into your body any such thing as
alcohol?
A, Yeah.
Penny Moser, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Q. It did. And how much alcohol had you consumed? Beer or
mixed drinks.
A. I drank about a case anda half of Budweiser between the
three of us that night.
Q. A case anda half of beer between the three of you. So
that's twenty-four cans to a case, right?
A. Yes,
Q. And when did you start drinking beer that evening?
A. I'd been drinking a little bit all day, you know, off and
on.
Q. When you say thirty-six cans between the three of you
do you mean during the day or just when you went with those three
-at nignt?
A. Oh, at night.
Q. Oxay. So you'd been drinking something else during the day
is that right?
Yes.
And was that hard liquor or beer?
Hard liquor.
And what was that if you recall?
Jack Daniels.
Oo PrP Oo PP OD YP
Jack Daniels. Were you mixing it with anything or drinking
it straight?
A. Straight,
Q. Straight. And were you drinking the green label or the
Peony Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Nm
black label.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
that
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
- A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
this drinking, is that right?
A.
Q.
Black.
Black label. Which is higher proof if you know?
I don't know.
One of them has more alcohol than the other?
Taste better.
And what time of day on Saturday did you start drinking
alcohol?
About noon and quit about 3:30.
And who were you drinking with?
A little bit of everybody.
Everybody. Okay. Was it your bottle or somebody else's?
Somebody elses.
And did you eat anything that day if you remember?
Breakfast.
Breakfast. Did you eat anything the rest of the day?
No.
So your stomach was empty while you're doing the rest of
Yes.
Now then from 3:30 until later on in the afternoon when you
met Eddie Robertson and Terry Smith, did you drink anything in
that time period when you quit drinking Jack Daniels until you
started drinking a case and a half of beer that night?
A.
No.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
| (405) 247-3671
24
25
545
Q. Didn't drink anything?
A. Because it was about 5:30 or 6:00 when they come by.
Q. They come by your house. And what did you guys do while
you were drinking this beer, ride around?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do any physical activity where you'd sweat some of
it out, skating or
A. Just riding.
Q. SO your answer would be no, you didn't do any physical
activity?
A. Yes.
Q. | Now then by the time you came to Dorothy Thompson's house
here at 320 Illinois later at night were you-- Terry Smith had
left you,is that right?
A. Yes.
Q And had Eddie Robertson also left?
A Eddie left earlier that night about 11:30 or 12:00.
Q. Terry?
A Eddie.
Q Oh, Eddie. Was Terry still with you?
A. ‘Yes. |
Q. And he was with you at the time you went past the Thompson
house, is that right?
A. Well, he let me off at Dorothy's.
Q. He what?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
tN
24
25
546
A. He dropped me off.
Q. He dropped you off there in his car?
A. Yes.
Q. So you arrived at their house by yourself, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you didn't see Wayne in any-- you said that his clothes
were clean?
A. Yes.
Q. That's the words you used on direct examination with Mr.
Burns?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is the best way--what is the closest you can
Mnarrow it down the time of the evening you were there? You said
that Terry left at 11:30,..
A. Eddie.
Q. Eddie did?
A. Yeah. _
Q. How much time elapsed tGntil Terry dropped you off?
A. Say that again.
Q. How much time elapsed from the time at 11:30 when Eddie
left, how much time went by hefore Terry dropped you off over at
the Thompson house?
A, About a couple hours, three,
Q. Two or three hours?
A. Yeah, we rode out to Chickasha Lake and back so whatever
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
547
that is.
Q. Okay. Wait a minute until this truck gets by and I'm
going to ask you to repeat your answer there about how much time
went by.
A. All right. When Eddie left we cruised out to Chickasha
Lake and messed around there a little bit and then we drove back
and then he dropped me off at Dorothy Thompson's house,
Q. Okay. Benny, during this evening did you do anything else
with respect to your memory that night such as smoking marijuana?
A. . Yes.
Q. You smoked marijuana that night?
A. Yeah.
Q. And the other boys smoked it with you?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you smoke just one cigarette or more?
A. Few.
Q. Okay. So it was probably one of them deals where you pass
one around, right?
A. Yes.
Q.. And so the three of you smoked marijuana together by
passing cigarettes around, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many of those cigarettes did you smoke totally
between the three of you while you were riding around?
A. I don't know.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Oo —- HO YF A
More than three?
Quite a bit.
More than five?
A little bit more than that.
Could be more than that. Okay. Does marijuana ordinarily
get you high?
A.
Q.
A.
to
_P ODO YP 2 > O PF 0 > 0 >
the
you
Yeah.
It does,
Yes,
Had you come down off of the marijuana by the time you got
Thompson residence?
Not that much.
When you're smoking marijuana do things appear different
than what they do when you're not smoking marijuana?
No.
Everything stays the same?
Yes.
You hear just as well?
Yes.
Understand just as well?
Yes.
And you walk just as well?
Yes.
And you drive just as well?
Yes.
Penny Moser, C.5.9.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
Q. Is that right?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now lets talk about some things called quaaludes. Did you
have. any quaaludes that night?
A. Yeah. Had a couple.
Q. What are quaaludes? Are they narcotic substances?
A. Yeah.
Q, And how many had you had that night?
A. Two.
Q. Two?
A. Yeah.
Q. When did you take them?
A, About 7:00.
Q. 7:00 o'clock?
A. Yeah, right after they picked me up.
Q. What was that?
A. Right after they picked me up.
Q. Right after they picked you up. And did you take both of
those quaaludes at one time?
A. No.
Q. You took one at 7:00 o'clock?
A. Yes.
Q. Then when did you take the other one?
A. About thirty-five minutes, a little while after that.
Q. Later on?
Peony Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. Yeah, it was later on.
Q. Do two quaaludes cause you to see things any -differently
than you do when you're not taking them?
A. No,
Q. Have you ever taken L.S.D.?
A. No.
Q. Do you drive as well when you've been taking
you do when you haven't been?
A, I don’t drive on them.
Q You don't drive?
A, Yeah, I drive, but not on quaaludes.
Q You don't drive when you're taking quaaludes,.
a licensed driver?
quaaludes as
But you are
A No.
Q You're not a licensed driver?
A. No.
Q But you do drive? _
A Yes.
Q. Okay. What about the anphetamines, did you have any
anphetamines that night, speed?
A. No,
Q. What about barbituates, downers?
A. That's a quaalude, |
Q. Okay, Did you have any other downers besides
A. No.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
quaaludes?
24
25
Q.
A.
Q.
alcohol besides beer that night?
A.
Pr OD PF 6
Q.
finally go to sleep or pass out?
A.
- Q.
on that day had you been doing anything besides drinking
Can you think of any other type of drug you took that night?)
None.
Did you injest any other--swallow any other kind of
Just beer.
Just beer. Do quaaludes sometimes put you to sleep?
Yeah,
Did you pass out any that evening, Saturday night?
No.
You didn't that night. Do you remember what time you did
3:00 o'clock.
3:00 o'clock. At your own home?
Yeah.
Now on the date that you gave your statement on February
No.
You hadn't smoked any marijuana?
Well, a joint.
One joint?
Yes,
That's on February 17th when you came to the courthouse?
Yes.
Under arrest. And did you share that joing with anybody
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. Four others.
Q. Four others, What time of day was that?
A. Just before they picked me up.
Q. Just before they picked you up?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you done anything else that day in connection with
narcotics or marijuana?
A. No.
Q. Talking about the day you were arrested. Nothing else?
A. No.
Q. Also one other thing that we need to talk about here, Benny,
‘on the preliminary hearing talking about the gun that someone gave
you on page 209 in the transcript of April 25th of this year
was this question asked and these questions given at that time.
"Do you know what kind of gun it was that you took to Mr. Camp
and tried to sell"? Answer: "A forty four". Question: "A forty-
four''? Answer: "Yeah." On that day were those questions asked
and those answers given?
A, What was that last part
Q. You were asked the question ''Do you know what kind of gun
it was that you took. to Mr, Camp and tried to sell" And you said
it was a forty-four. |
A. Yes. |
Q. Was that your answer on the 25th day of April here in this
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
courtroom?
A. Yes,
Q. Have you ever been convicted of a felony or a crime involvin
dishonesty?
A. | Yeah,
Q. When was that?
A. Here not too long ago I got arrested for attempt to snuggle,
or that's what they said.
mer Convicted of what?
A. Attempting to smuggle marijuana.
Q. Attempting to smoke marijuana?
A. Attempting to smuggle to the courthouse. Attempt to
‘deliver marijuana to the courthouse.
Q. Attempt to deliver marijuana?
A. Yeah, and then one time they caught us riding around and
they caught us with dope.
Q. So were you charged with selling marijuana? _
A. No, wasn't selling it,
Q. Attempting to deliver?
A. Well, that's what they said. A friend of mine had it on
hin
Q, Okay. Have you ever been convicted of any other crimes
involving a felony or dishonesty? |
A. That's it.
Q. Other than the time that you were taken to jail back in
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
UY
February have you ever been jailed in this case for any other
reason? Is that the only time you've been to jail?
A. Yes.
Q. That has any connection to why you're here today?
In other words, even though you've been arrested for something else
when we talk about being in this jail here in this county court-
house for the same reason that you were there February 1/th, has
that happened other than February 1/th?
A. What?
Q. Okay. I'll try to make it a little more clear, Was Februar
the 17th,1983 the only time that you were in this jail for the
purpose of taking a statement from you or getting you to talk about
what you're here today for?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is that the only time?
A. Yeah.
Q. So your answer is: yes?
A. Yes,
Q. Now when you say Charles Keene was a friend of yours you
answered that no?
A. Yes.
Q. But of course you knew Charles, is that right?
A. Yes,
Q.. And you were asked if you had ever sniffed paint with
Charles Keene and you said no,
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY CQURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
y
> O Pp
Q.
Yes.
Did you ever do any other drugs with Charles Keene?
None.
Now then when you went down to the river outside of town
you were told to check on fishing lines, is that right?
A.
A,
Q,
A.
ro PF O&O PF 2
Q.
Yes.
And that area down there is kind of a dark, spooky area,
it?
Not really.
Your answer is no?
Yeah.
So it doesnit bother you to go down there?
It was in the daytime.
You went down there in the daytime?
Yes.
You ever been down there at night?
In that part, no, not by the bridge. _
Now the fence that you described down there,did you say
something about helping put back. up a fence?
A.
Yeah, we might haye put it back up, but as far as recalling
if we did I don’t remember.
Q.
A
Q.
A
What was your answer? Did you help put up a fence?
Yes.
Now that is a big, heavy fence, isn't it?
No.
Penny Maser, C.S.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
sane Nat Tes
24
25
rer OD PF OD PP 2
Q.
how long did you stay there, Benny?
A.
Q.
A,
Q.
anything with them, did you?
A.
Q
A
Q.
A
Q.
heard Bobby Glass say he had shot Charles Keene three times?
A,
Q.
ever give a statement to anybody saying that Wayne Thompson pulled
A,
556
Its a small, light fence?
Yes.
Is it one strand of barbed wire?
Its.
Do you remember what kind of fence it was?
No.
Okay. Now when you came to the Thompson house that night
About thirty minutes.
Then you just walked around the corner to your house?
Yes.
You didn't stay there and really hang around and drink
No.
Was anybody drinking there?
I don't know.
Beg your pardon?
I don't know.
You don't know. Did you ever tell anybody that you had
Yeah, he did.
Did Wayne Thompson ever tell you or did anybody--did you
the. trigger on Charles Keene?
No,
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
ty
24
25
MR, McCONNEL: No further questions,
THE COURT: Mr, Burns.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
Q. Bobby Glass told you that Wayne Thompson shot him in the
head, didn't he?
A. Yeah.
Q. Cut his throat, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Getting back to the identification of this gun that you
made earlier, when the police officers first picked you up we did
file a material witness warrant against you, didn't we, Benny?
_A. Yes,
Q. That's why that bond was put on you so you couldn't run
off so we'd have you available as a witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Back there when the officers had you in the courthouse for
four, four and a half hours that you've talked about, you -
originally told the officers your story, they had to find a
court reporter and went up here to the jury room, right up these
stairs and that's where the court reporter set up and took your
statement, is that right?
A. Yes,
Q. In that sworn statement on page 27--you gave that statement
on February the 17th, the very day, in fact the day before
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Charles Keene's body was discovered, isn't that right, Benny?
A. What was that again?
Q The day before Charles Keene's body was found, wasn't it?
A Was what?
Q That you gave the statement to the 0.S.B.1. agents?
A. Yes.
Q That's one of the reasons the O0.£.5.1I . Agents were out
there and the county sheriff's deputies were out there in this
river wading around in that water looking for Charles Keene's
body, because you took them out there and showed them the
location, didn't you, Benny?
A. I took them out there where me and Bobby went because they
lseic that me, Bobby and Vicky went out trere before I told them
that we went out there.
C. You took the C.§.B.1I. out to the river and showed them
where Bobby had taken you,didr't you?
A. Yes. | =
Q. Terry Cunningham and one of the other ceputies went out
there,cidn't they?
A. It was just Randy Jackson, Ron Tavlor and the two 0.S.B.1.
agents when I was there. an
Q. Speak up, Benny. The fact is you took John Gregg and Jack
Daly, two 0.S.B.I. Agents, on February the 17th, the day before |
Charles Keene's body was found, you took those two agents out here
to the bridge at the location where Charles Keene's body was found
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
ee
24
25
Question of the officer: " So, Bobby told you he had shot him with
“that automatic?" And your answer was: "Yes, sir." Is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. So I repeated that to you at the time of preliminary hear-
55
the next day, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You showed them that this is the spot that Bobby Glass took
you to, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. On February 17th when you gave that statement to the O.S.B.I.
Agents, there on pDage 27 one of the 0.S.B.1. people asked you on
line 1, Question: "Well, the day that you and Bobby went out to
check the river, Bobby told you that he had shot him. Bobby tell
you what he shot him with?" And your answer was "Just that gun,
looked like a thirty-eight to a forty-five, I don't know.
ing and we had that back in Avril. Page 209, a portion of it is
what Mr. McConnel read to you was correct down to as far as he
read. But then the question where he stopped was "Do you know
what kind of gun it was that you took to Mr. Camp and tried to
sell." Your answer was: " A forty-four" The question was:
"a forty-four?" And you said "Yeah" The next question: “Was it
automatic or a revolver?" Answer:"An automatic."" Next question:
"And are you sure about the forty-four." Answer: "Not really."
Question: "Do you recall the answers you gave to the police
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(40S) 247-367! . j
24
25
officers on page 27 of line 4. The answer was when they were askin
you about the gun. You said "just the gun looked like a thirty-
eight to a forty-five, I don't know, is that correct?" And you
answered: “yes, sir." Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Right there on February the 1/th about how much cooercion
was applied to you, Benny. On page 2 of that it starts out the
officer gave you your constitutional rights and Miranda Warning,
did they not?
A. Yes.
Q. Then on page three this is Jack Daly asking the questions
for the 0.S.B.I., his question was: "Having these rights in mind
-Benny, do you wish to talk to me now?" Your answer was "Yes."
Is that what you said?
A. Yes.
Q. Said "Benny, have I promised you, made any promise to you
in exchange for your conversation with me?" You said"No, sir."
Question: "Have I threatened you or coercea you in any way."
And you said "No, sir." "Is this statement completely voluntary?"
You said "Yes, sir."' Now, is that true or not, Benny?
A. Yes.
Q. The point was, Benny, when the officer talked to you about
whether or not you were an accessory to the facts is that you had
possession of a gun at the time you tried to sell it taking every-
thing you say as being the way it was, at the time you actually
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 ’
24
25
tried to sell it you didn't know it was a murder weapon, did you?
A. No.
Q. After you tried to sell it you did know, at least they
told you that was the murder weapon?
A. After I took the gun back.
Q. That's from January 23rd, and Benny, you didn't come down
to the sheriff's office and volunteer that people had told you
about the murder and you had the murder weapon, did you?
A. No.
Q. That's why a material witness warrant was filed for you,
wasn't it?
A. Yes.
MR. BURNS: No further questions, Your Fonor.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. McCONNEL: Just two questions, Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. McCONNEL:
O
Benny, just to reacquaint you and be sure everybody under-
stands, anc also that you understand, I'm going to show you the
transcript of your statement taken that day and have you seen that
since--what you have stated in there? Ir other words there was a
man sitting in the room with you that listenec to what you said
and took it down just like this lady here is taking down what
you're saying now, right?
A. Yes.
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Q. And have you read through that and looked to see what's
in there?
A. Yesterday.
Q. You did. And rather than bore the judge and the jury
by going through every line of that whole thing let me just ask
you one general question. In that statement you talk about things
that Tony Mann told you, isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you talk about things that Bobby Glass told you, isn't
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you talk about things that Ricky Jones told you?
“You don't talk about Ricky Jones?
A. Witness nods head.
Q. And last of all you don't talk about things that Wayne
Thompson told you in there, do you?
A. He didn’t tell me nothing. _
Q. All right. And my last question is, and that's the state-
ment that you gave on the same day that you smoked a joint right
before you were arrested and had a case of beer is that right?
A. Yes.
MR. McCONNEL: Okay. That's all I have.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
0. Its just this simple, Benny, on the night of January 23rd,
Penny Moser, €.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
when you came in the Thompson house was Wayne Thompson sitting in
that bedroom crying?
A. Yes.
Q. And did those people make those statements to you that you
have testified to here in this courtroom under oath?
A. What?
Q. Did Bobby Glass and Tony Mann, did they make the state-
ments to you, asking you to sell the gun and those things we
talked about that you've testified to this jury about, did those
things happen, Benny?
A. Yes.
MR. BURNS: No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. McCONNEL: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You may be excused. Let's go ahead and
take the noon recess. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I will
admonish you not to converse among yourselves or with anyone else
on any subject connnected with the trial. Or to form or exprss
any opinion about this case until its finally submitted to you.
will also admonish the audience that you're not to speak to the
jury, please what you say in the hall. Court will be in recess.
(Whereupon, recess was taken and proceedings resumed
as follows) |
THE COURT: Show the presence of the jury in the box,
the presence of the State and defendant and his attorney. State
will call their next witness.
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
I
24
25
564
MR. BURNS: Charolotte Mann.
CHAROLOTTE MANN
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
Q. State your name, please.
A. Charolotte Mann.
Q. Mrs. Mann, where do you live?
A. 929 North 12th here in Chickasha.
Q. And tell the jury first of all how you're related to the
person or were related to a person named Tony Mann?
A. T was married to him.
How many children do you have of that marriage?
Two.
When did you get divorced?
Last year.
Last year in August.
Q
A
Q
A
Q. When last year?
A
Q. August of 1982?
A.
"81-- no, '82, yes.
Lies hw
Q. I'd ask you to direct your attention to January the 22nd
1983 approximately four or five months after you received your |
divorce, on that date where were you children?
A. They were with Tony at his house over at his mothers.
Penny Moser, 0.5.9.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
a
PPing oo
24
25
> DO F A
Q.
describe where that's at and the type of houses that are there?
A.
house beside it. He stayed in the little house and she stayed in
the big house is where she lived.
Q.
house?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
children being at the Mann residence that weekend, that Saturday?
A.
(_O —- DOD PP A
Tony Mann you say at his mother's, what is his mother's
Dorothy.
Dorothy who?
Thompson.
So Tony Mann is the son of Dorothy Thompson?
Yes.
ard to them being at the same location or residence,
In reg
Its on Illinois Street and there is a big house and little
So Tony Mann, he lived in the one that was called the little
Yes.
This is adjacent to his mother?
Right.
The date of January 22nd, what was the reason for your
It was Tony's weekend, his visiting weekend to have them.
What did you do that Saturday night of January 22nd?
I went out to Alex,to the bar in Alex.
Who were you with?
Dennis Cummins.
Just tell the jury in your own words how much you had to
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
drink that night when you were there at the bar at Alex?
A.
I really don't remember. I know I wasn't that drunk. I
was drinking, but I drove, I'm the one that drove back to town.
A.
Q.
And what were you drinking?
Beer.
No hard liquor?
No.
Did you consume any other type of substance that would have
effected you in any way that night other than beer?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
No.
Mrs. Mann, when did you leave the bar in Alex?
Probably after it closed, I'm not sure. I think it was
-probably about 12:00.
And where did you go after you left there?
I think we went by Wanda's, I'm not sure. And we came to
Picker's.
Q. Wanda's and Picker's? What is Wanda's?
A. Its a bar, I'm not really sure if we even stopped, I don't
remember.
Q. After you left Picker's what did you do with Mr. Cummings?
A I took him home.
Q. Where was that at?
A. Over on Twentieth.
Q. Here in Chickasha?
A. Yes.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Q. After taking Mr. Cummings home where did you go?
A. I went to Tony's, Tony's house.
Q. That's the Mann, Thompson place over on Illinois?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately can you tell us the best estimate you have at
what time you arrived at the Thompson residence?
A. Probably between 2:00 and 3:00.
Q. Why did you go by there or stop there at that time?
A. Well, Tony had asked me to come back but I didn't know it
was going to be that late and I just drove by and all the lights
were on, or there were a lot of lights on so I stopped.
Q. When you stopped which of the two houses did you initially
go up to?
A. Well, I had to come to the big house because the gate was
in front of Dorothy's house. I had to go in it and go past it to
get to Tony's little house.
Q. So to get to the yard or residence the gate is right in
front of Dorothy Thompson's house? |
A. Yes, went right up to her porch.
Q. After you arrived there and as you walked in the gate and
came by the porch on the big house what people did you see?
A. Dorothy and Wayne.
Q Will you give us the last names, please?
A. Dorothy Thompson and Wayne Thompson.
Q Where were they at?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
}
A. They were on the porch.
Q. What were they doing?
A. She was hugging him, trying to calm him down. ;
q. What was Wayne's appearance?
A. He was wet and I think he was real nervous.
Q. By calming him down what was he doing?
A. He was just kind of shaking and she was telling him to
calm down.
Q. What statements, if any, did you hear Wayne Thompson make
at that time?
A. He told Dorothy that he killed him, Charles was dead and
Vicky didn't have to worry about him anymore.
Q. He said to his mother, Dorothy, that he had killed hin,
that Charles was dead and that Vicky didn't have to worry about
him anymore?
A. Yes.
Q. When you heard that statement what did you co?
A. I went on over to Tony's house.
Q. Did you attempt to have any conversations with either Wayne
Thompson or Mrs. Thompson?
A. No.
Q. When you went to the little house where Tony was tell the:
jury in your own words what happened there?
A. He was coming outside and I asked him...
Q. Who was coming outside?
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
car.
Q.
A.
or what had they done.
the bench?
being a hearsay conversation outside the presence of my client.
I make a continuing objection to this line of questioning.
said Tony Mann was just coming out?
and I asked him if it was really true what had happened, and he
said-- I asked him if Charles was dead and he said yes.
little house?
Benny McCarthy and some other guy but I didn't know him. I'd seen
Tony was coming outside and I asked him what was going on
MR. McCONNEL: Excuse me, Mr. Burns. Can we approach
THE COURT: Yes.
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
MR. McCOMNEL: I would make the same objection as to this
MR. BURNS: We'd have the same response, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm going to overrule your objection.
(Whereupon, record complete at the bench, proceedings
resumed as follows)
(by Mr. Burns) As you approached the little house you
Yes, he come to the door and he was standing at the door
What further conversation-- at that point did you do in the
Yes, I went in the little house and he went and moved my
What people did you see inside the little house?
Bobby Glass and Ricky Jones and Wayne-- no, not Wayne,
t
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
him over there but I don't know what his name is.
Q. As to -- you said Tony went to move your Car, how long was
Tony gone?
A. Just for a minute. He went to move my car and I hollered
for Ricky to come in the-- Dorothy came in right after that and I
ask Ricky to come in the next room, and while me and Ricky went in
the next room the other ones left.
Q. What conversation did you have with Ricky Jones at that
time?
A. I asked him if Charles was really dead and he told me he
didn’t know what I was talking about.
Q. Was that the extent of the conversation?
- A. Yes.
Q. When Dorothy came to the house what did she come in for?
A. She came--she was getting some clothes and taking them out
as I left.
Q. Whose clothing was she getting or collecting, do you know?
A. No, I just know that she had some clothes in her hand.
Q. Any of the people that you've mentioned, either Ricky Jones,
Wayne Thompson, or Bobby Glass or Tony Mann, did any of the people
change clothes in the house or at the time sequence when you were
there? ©
A. No.
Q. If they had changed clothes they changed them before you got
there, is that correct?
Penny Moser, 0.5.A.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OXLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. Yes, I suppose.
Q. After Tony Mann came back into the house what conversation
did you have with him?
A. He just tried to tell me that, not to worry about it. I
told him that-- I told him that they shouldn't have went out
there and he told me that it wasn't meant to happen and everything.
Q. Try to be as accurate as you can for the court and jury
as much of the conversation with Tony Mann that you had, tell them
exactly what he said and what you asked him?
A. I asked him if he shot him and he said no, that Wayne did.
And I asked him why he didn't stop him and he said because he was
scared. And that's all I can remember.
Q. Tony Mann told you at that time that Wayne shot Charles
Keene?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you there that evening?
A. Just a few minutes. _
Q. After you left that night would you tell the jury when if
ever you had occasion to accompany any people, and again identify
the people who they were, with an attempt to sell a firearm or a
gun?
A. Yes, I took Bobby Glass to sell a gun.
Q. Who all went?
A. Well, we went to the city once and he went, we went to his
uncle's house and Dorothy Thompson and Charlesetta and myself and
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 ;
24
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Bobby went. And the second time Charlesetta and Bobby and myself
went.
Q. The first time was when you went to Oxlahoma City, is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Bobby Glass, Dorothy Thompson, Charlesetta and yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go in Oklahoma City?
A. To Bobby Glass' uncle's house.
Q. For what purpose did you go up there?
A. I --to sell the gun.
Q. Did you see a gun?
"A. No.
Q. What conversation did Bobby Glass have with you or in your
presence about that the purpose was to sell a gun?
A He just said that his uncle might want to buy it.
Q Did he actually sell the gun in the city? a
A. No. |
Q When you returned to-- how long did you stay in sthe city?
A Just long enough to go to his uncle's and come right back.
Q. When was that, the trip to Oklahoma City in relationship
to the night or early morning hours of January 23rd?
A. It was just maybe a week later, wasn't very long after
that.
Q. After you returned to Chickasha when was the second
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
24
25
occasion that you accompanied any people in an effort to sell a
firearm?
A. It was just a few days after the city.
Q. Where did you go and who were the people that were present?
A. Charlesetta and Bobby and myself. We went to some house
over on Missouri by Clayton's, right next door to Clayton's.
Q. Do you know whose house that is?
A. No, LI have no idea.
Q. Tell the jury what you saw as you took Bobby Giass to that
residence?
A. He went in-- he got out of the car and went in and he had
the gun in a towel when he came back out and we left.
Q. What did Bobby Glass say to you about the gun that he had
just sold?
A. He said that -- well, he wanted to go back because they
didn't give him enough money and someone pulled up and we were
done leaving and I asked him why and he said that it was the gun
that they used and I asked him why did he sell it and he said
that that guy would never sell it to anybody else or something.
Q. Saying the gun that they used, what was that conversation?
A. About Charles.
Q. Will you relate to the jury any further conversations you
had with Tony Mann in relationship to the actual killing of
Charles Keene. How they came into contact with Mr. Keene and
what happened that night?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405\ PAT-RAR71
24
25
He said that they went to Charles' house.
Who's talking, telling you this?
Tony.
When did Tony tell you this?
That night he told me a little bit of it.
The morning of January 23rd?
> OP oP oO >
Yes, that they went to Charles’ house, to Vicky's house and
got Charles and they went in and told him to pack his suitcase
that they were taking him to the highway because he was leaving.
And they took -- Charles left with them and they ended up at
Possum Brown's house and Charles got out and ran and they chased
him or something to that effect. And then they took him to the
“river somewhere.
Q. Tony Mann told you that they took Charles Keene to the
river?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you about what transpired at the time that
Charlies Keene was killed?
A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. Did Mr. Mann ever make any statements to you relating to
what Charles Keene said at the time that he was being killed?
A. Yeah, he told me that Charles asked him to take care of his
kids and not let them end up like he did. |
Q. Did Mr. Mann, how did he relate to you the people who did
the, inflicted the actual injuries on Charles Keene?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
1405) 247-3671
24
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A. He told me that Wayne shot him and that Bobby shot hia.
Q. When did you first learn, if ever, that Charles Keene had
been cut, his throat cut and cut down his chest?
A. Not until a couple of weeks later.
Q. Who did you learn that from?
A. From Tony's little sister, Cindy.
MR. McCONNEL: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be sustained. Jury will be
admonished to disregard that statement.
Q. During this sequence of events from the time Charles Keene
was murdered until Charles Keene's body was found and charges
filed, did you change your residence or did you move?
AL Yes.
Q. Who helped you move?
A. Wayne and Gordon, one of his friends.
Q. Tell the jury what conversations you had with Wayne
Thompson during the time that you were moving in relationship to
Charles Keene? |
A. I told him that a friend of mine said they thought that
they'd seen Charles out at Picker's dancing and Wayne said that
would be kind of hard to do with a bullet in his head.
Q. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Mann, Tony Mann,
when Wayne Thompson was present in relationship to whether er not
Charles Keene's body would be found?
A. Yes, I told them that they were going to find it and they'
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Ee a aS OE eT ee ee ae
were going to be in trouble and they both said no they they weren't
going to find the body.
Q. What did Wayne Thompson say?
A. He said that they wouldn't find it. That he had chains on
him.
Q. Did he tell you how the chains were attached to Charles
Keene's body?
A. I think they told me that it was run through him or
something like that. They told me that he had blocks on him,too.
Q. What?
A. That he had blocks on him too.
Q. Chain run through him and blocks on him?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any other conversations that you had with Mr.
Glass, Mr. Mann, Mr. Thompson or Mr. Jones in relationship to
the death or murder of Charles Keene?
A. I don't think so. ;
Q. When I first began asking you questions about the early
morning hours of January 23rd when you arrived at the Thompson's
house, you said that Charles-- pardon me that Wayne was standing
on the front porch with his mother, that he was upset and that he
was wet?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe his appearance as to the degree of wetness that
you observed?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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A. He was real wet, his hair was wet. He had some coveralls
on or something and they were wet.
Q. When they were standing there on the front porch and its
2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, how could you tell he was wet?
A. Well, the light was on in the big house and tnere was a
light right at the corner, a big light at the corner right next
to them in front of the Kirby place and there were lights around it,
Q. Tell the wetness of his hair and the wetness of nis
clothing due to the change in color,is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. BURNS: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnel.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. McCONNEL:
Q. Charolotte, first of all lets establish a little bit about
your relationship to the Thompson family. Of course, your name is
still Mann, is that correct?
A. Yes.
And you were married to Tony Mann?
Yes.
That is Wayne's older brother, is that correct?
Yes.
Who had a different Father than Wayne, right?
Right.
QO FF OD F&F O FP 0
Now then on -- how many children did you have with Tony
Penny Moser, 0.5.4.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
before you divorced him?
A. Two.
Q. And where are they now, in your custody or someone else?
A. Mine.
Q. You've had some conflict with Wayne's family over those
children, is that correct?
A, Yes.
Q. And when you referred to your divorce last September that
not only included a divorce but it also included a fairly bitter
custody battle, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that involved members of your family and friends of
your's testifying on one side of the matter and members of Tony's
family testifying on the other side of the case, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And would it be fair to say that there were hard feelings,
is that right?
A Yes,
Q And that was just last September?
A. Yes.
Q Not the last September, but September a year ago?
A Right. ae
Q. And that involved about a two or three day trial in this 3
courthouse, didn't it?
A. One day.
Penny Moser, U.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
24
25
> O PF A
Q.
One day. At the time you're talking about in January of
1983 it would be fair to say that there were still some hard
feelings over that, wern't there, at that time?
A.
Q.
Yes.
Now then when you came from that place at 320 Illinois
which is the Thompson home of course, it was a Saturday night?
A.
Q.
Yes.
And your current boyfriend at that time was a young man
named Dennis Cummings, right?
A.
Q.
Yes.
How old are you, Charolotte?
Twenty-two.
And do you know how old Tony is?
Twenty-eight.
Since you'd been divorced in September how long had you
been dating Dennis Cummings?
A. I don't remember, a while. _
Q. Was he with you when you arrived there at the Thompson
residence?
A. . No.
Q. And what had happened to him?
A. I took him home.
Q. Was he extremely intoxicated?
A, Yes.
Q, In fact, he was so intoxicated that you were driving, right?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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A. Yes.
Q. And you had had substantial number of beers to drink, is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have told me before that that was as many as ten
beers, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you eat anything that evening when you consumed all
that beer?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Do any dancing or anything to sweat out any of that alcohol
during the evening?
A. No.
Q. Now when you arrived, of course, the jury doesn't have the
benefit here of seeing a picture of this house or knowing exactly
what its like, so if you will tell us briefly about how far it is
from the porch of that house out to front yard? Would you agree
its about fifteen yards?
A. I don't know,from about here to over there. (indicating)
Is it further than it is from you to me? |
From the driveway to the porch?
Yes.
Maybe a little bit.
: A little bit further?
ro Fr Oo PO
Maybe, I'm not
Penny Moser, 0€.5.h.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. There is about ten or fifteen yards between you and me.
And this is where you were when you're saying you overheard this
conversation, is that right?
A. Yes, I was coming in the gate.
Q. All right. And you weren't intending where you would come
in that gate compared to that porch it would be straight from
where I'm standing-- assuming that the gate was rignt here the
porch would be straight to the north of that gate, wouldn't it?
In other words, if you were going to walk in that gate and go
straight to the big house you would go straight up through that
gate directly from me to you, wouldn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Which is directly north, correct?
A. Kay.
Q. And to go to the little house you would have walked over
toward that blackboard, that green blackboard over there?
A. Right.
Q. To the northwest from where you would be at the gate, is
that right?
A. Right.
Q. But you didn't walk toward the house, did you?
A. Not right toward it. |
Q. You went around it over to the little house over to the
side and back. And it wasn't your intention to go in the big
house, was it?
Penny Maser, C.5.K.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
- CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
> O FP O YF HD YF LD
A.
Q.
were they?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
wasn't
A.
No.
And nobody there was really intending to speak to you,
No.
And were they speaking very loudly?
I don't remember.
Why did you come to the house that evening?
I came because Tony asked me to come back later, but I
going to stop until I seen the lights on.
And so you had no purpose to be there other than to check
on your children, is that right?
A.
on and
Q.
Right.
You hadn't gone there to visit Dorothy Thompson?
NO.
You hadn't gone there to visit Wayne?
No.
And your kids were the only reason you were there, right?
Right.
And did you intend to pick them up and take them?
No, I just intended to see what was wrong, the lights were
it was late and I thought something might have happened.
Okay. And that was a regular visitation night for -- week-
end for Tony, wasn't it?
A,
Q.
Yes.
Have you ever told anyone or written it down in referring
Penny Moser, C.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
to the custody over your children, saying that hurt me for ya'll
to do that. How does it feel for me to get up there in front of
that judge and hurt y'all?
A. Probably.
Q. Do you remember that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you're referring to hurting the Thompson family by
getting up here and testifying against Wayne?
A. No.
Q. That's not what you meant?
A. No, I was referring to Tony. Wayne did not do anything,
Wayne was not in my-- in our trial, Wayne had nothing to do with
our custody trial.
Q. But you admit that thev're a close family and they stick
together?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. So if you hurt one of them you hurt Wayne, wouldn't you?
A. I wouldn't hurt anyone that didn't try to hurt me first.
Q. And you're saying they did try to hurt you by fighting you
in that custody battle in September of '82, is that right?
A. I'm saying Tony did.
Q. Did you also write "one thing about your family, you all
stick together. Just like when you tried to take my kids."
A. Probably.
Q. When were you first induced to talk about this incident?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
|Were you ever picked up, arrested?
I knew about it, what I knew about Charles Keene. And I told
him I didn't know anything about it. And then about a week later
him and Robert Lee came to my house, Terry and Robert.
Q. Did they talk to you there or did they bring you somewhere
else?
A. They talked to me there at my house.
Q You were never brought down here to the jail?
A No.
Q. Did it scare you when they came up?
oA Yes.
Q Where were you living at that time?
A 929 N. 12th.
Q. Now on the day that you were riding in this pickup with
Charles Keene", did he?
A. No.
Q. He didn't say "We killed Charles Keene"?
A. No.
Q. All he said to you basically is that "it would be hard to
dance with a bullet in your head" is that right?
Penny Moser, C.5.ft.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. Talked to it to who?
Q. To law enforcement officials.
A. I came up here just right after it happened, IL had a friend
in jail and I brung her some money. Terry Cunningham asked me what
Wayne and his friend, Gordon McCarthy, Wayne did not say "I killed
A. Yes.
Q. No other conversation?
A. No.
Q. When you gave a statement to the 0.S.B.1. and Terry
Cunningham had you been drinking that day?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell them in your statement that you had been
drinking ten beers on January the -- Saturday night of January
22nd?
A. I don't know. I told them that I was drinking, I don't
think I told them that I'd had ten beers. I told them that I'd
been to Alex to the bar.
~ Q. Now out there in the street where you drove up to the
Thompson residence, what kind of car were you driving?
A. Red Toronado.
Q. Is that your car or Dennis Cummings?
A. Mine.
Q. And when you got out there you've described to us something
about the lights in the street corner and something by the Kirby
vacuum place, the light is really not all that great, is it?
A. I thougt it was. There's lights all around that Kirby place).
Q. Its not like daylight though,is it?
A. Well, no.
Q. And there -- was the porch lights on at the Thompson
residence?
Penny Moser, 0.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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A. No, front room light was on.
Q. Was there any kind of a light?
A. I believe it was the front room light that was on.
Q. Inside the house?
A. Yes.
Q. Do they have any kind of a pole lamp out in their yard?
A. I don't think so.
Q. So the only light that was available that night at that
time of night was the street corner lights there at the corner of
Illinois and Fourth Street, this street that runs right outside
the courthouse?
A. Yes.
- Q. And would it be fair to say that from that street light by
Kirby down to the Thompson house is at least about thirty or
forty yards?
A. I really don't know how far it is. There house was right
next door to the nkirby place.
Q. But the Kirby place is of course a business, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Its not a residence?
A. No.
Q. And there is a yard around the Thompson residence, is that
right?
A. Yes, a fence.
Q. And no light within that entire fenced area outside the house,
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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isn't that right?
A.
witness.
who,
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
BY iiR.
Q.
A.
Q.
Where do you live, Mrs. Keene?
A
Q
A.
Q
>
being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
No, not outside of it.
And as you would walk by on that night you didn't stop did
I just looked at them and then went on.
You were moving the entire time?
Yes.
MR. McCONNEL: No further questions.
MR. BURNS: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You can be excused then. Cail your next
MR. BURNS: Vicky Keene.
VICKY KEENE
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BURNS:
State your name, please?
Vicky Lynn Keene.
Mrs. Keene, you'll need to speak into the microphone.
Amber, Oklahoma.
What type of residence do you have in Amber?
I own a trailer house in Ken's Trailer Park, lot 10A.
Person by the name of Charles Keene-- Mrs. Keene, how were
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 7300S
(405) 247-3671 f
you related to a man named Charles Keene?
A. He was my ex-husband.
Q. How old was Charles Keene when he was murdered?
A. Twenty-six.
Q. How long were you and Mr. Keene been married?
A. We was married about seven years.
Q. When did you get married?
A. May 20th, 1974.
Q. When did you get divorced?
A. About two and a half years ago, maybe three.
Q. How many children did you have of that marriage, ma'am?
A. I have two children.
- Q. Relate to the jury one child was born during the marriage,
is that correct?
A That's right.
Q When was the second child born?
A. A year and a half ago.
Q After you and Charles got your divorce?
A Right.
Q. Mrs. Keene, tell the jury in your own words,ma'am, what
happened the afternoon of January 22nd at your trailer house in
Amber?
A. When we went to my trailer house?
Q. Yes, ma'am. Start from that point and tell the jury as you
want to tell it what happened:
Penny Moser, £.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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‘keys to it. And I knew that if I went ahead and got the car and
A. Okay. Me and my brothers, Tony Mann and Danny Mann, went
to my trailer house to get my car that he had taken. When we got
to the house he was messed up on paint, he sniffs paint. And he
let us in the house and the car had a flat on it and the battery
was taken out of it, the battery was in the house. So my brother,
Tony, he went to work on the car. Taken the tire off, took it to
the station, had it aired up and put it back on. He went in the
house and got the battery, put it back in the car and got the
car running and everything. During this time me and my brother,
Danny, was in the house trying to talk some sense into Charles
because we was legally divorced and he didn't work or anything and
there was no ties there. Trying to talk him into leaving, you
-know, get out of our lives. And he told Danny just get out of my
house. So Tony got the car all running and Charles had a set of
brought it to town that he would come up here and get it. So lI
told Tony and Danny, I said we need to get the keys from him
because if we don't it ain't going to do no good to take it to town
because he'll just be right up there after. it. So I asked him for
the keys and he said they was in the car. So I went and looked at
the car and I couldn't find them. I went back in the house and I
told him I said they're not in the car and he said yeah they are,
they're in the zipper on the back of the seat. So I went back out
there and I looked and they wasn't in there. And I started back
in the house and Tony and Danny come running out of the house. Anc
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
.320 Illinois and me and Danny then came up to the sheriff's office.
they told me said don't go back in the house. About that time I
looked up and there was Charles at the door and he had a butcher
knife in his hand and then he just closed the door. So we got in
the car and I went to the service station up there because the
car was out of gas. And put some gas in it and Ron Taylom, the
sheriff, lives up there in Amber. So I thought we'll go over to
Ron Taylor's house because he almost stabbed one of my brothers.
And he was messed up way past -- I mean he was messed up. So
we went over to Ron Taylor's house and we told him what had happene
and he said there was nothing I can do about it, A man was
almost killed but there's nothing he could do about it. So then
we come to Chickasha and we went to my mother's. She lives at
Because Danny had to go to work and he knew that I would be
there at Mom's and Charles always caused a lot of trouble with me.
He would always come and get my boys and try to take off with them
and things of that sort. So we come up here to the sheriff's
office to see if there was anything we could do and we explained
to him what hap happened. And he told Danny that if it would have
been his sister that he would have put him out of the hoguse. But
there was nothing that they could do because I didn't have no
papers saying he couldn't be in the house. And I had restraining
orders on him but they never did-- they was never enforced. Why
spend fifty dollars if its not going to do you any good. And
that's what happened out there at the house.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. Mrs. Keene, in regard to the restraining orders that
wouldn't be enforced. Restraining orders were in effect at the
time the divorce was pending, is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
q. Buc once you had the divorce you allowed at different
times Charles Keene to come back in and cohabitate with you, to
live with you again in that trailer house again, isn't that
| correct?
A. That's correct, but it wasn't by my choice. Because I
would call the law out there and they wouldn't do nothing.
O. Mrs. Keene, this relationship between you and your husband,
you and Charles Keene, why was it that six months prior to his
death, his murder, did you heave another child by him?
A. Because I wanted a child.
Q. Again, Charles Keene being such a bad person but you had
the child by the man that was your husband of your first child?
A. I didn't have much choice as to men because the man told
me that if he ever caught me with another man I was dead. And he
said the reason that he lived iith me after we got the divorce is
because he never would let me have another man, he said that if I
ever had one he would fix it so that another man wouldn't even
want to look at me, much less go to bed with me. So, I mean what
choices do you have there, you know.
Q. Mrs. Keene, you have choices of birth control, don't you
A. I took birth control pills -- I wanted the child, that's
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
sane\ a7 PCF
why I had him.
Q. Charles was pretty bad but you went ahead and had a child
by him in that type of environment?
A. I raised the child. I paid for him, 1! feed him, I give him
clothes, something that he never did. He never paid one months
rent on that trailer house.
Q. Mrs. Keene, when did you first learn that your brothers,
Tony Mann and Wayne Thompson, and their friends, Bobby Glass and
Ricky Jones, had murdered your husband?
MR. McCONNEI.: Object to that as hearsay, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm going to sustain that.
MR. BURNS: I can establish it, Your Honor, I |
‘will rephrase that. My question was when did you learn that your
husband had been murdered?
MR. McCONNEL: I'll make the same objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Approach the bench.
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
THE COURT: My concern is her response might be from
someone else and that would be hearsay. I think that is your
concern also, Mr. McConnel.
MR. BURNS: Your Honor, the response I anticipate is
that Mrs. Keene will say that when she got up that morning of the
23rd that her mother told her that she needed to go talk to Tony
anc she went and talked to Tony Mann and Tory Mann at that time
told her that her husband, that Charles was dead, and gave her
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
ee
this property.
THE COURT: I'm going to sustain it on the form of the
question. You can ask her as to which one, only one can tell her.
MR. BURNS: Her previous testimony at previous trial and
at the preliminary hearing has been that her mother didn't tell
her, her mother told her to go talk to Tony, that she needed to
go talk to Tony. So as to when she learned it I'm going to tie
it to Tony. I'll start with who first and go that way.
THE COURT: I want to make sure we keep it out as to
hearsay.
MR. BURNS: Yes, sir.
(Whereupon, recored at the bench was completed and
“ proceedings resumed as follows)
Q. Mrs. Keene, who first told you that Charles Keene had been
Killed?
A. My brother.
q. Which brother? ;
A. Tony.
Q. Tony Mann?
A. Right.
When did he tell you that he'd been killed?
. The next morning.
Q
A
Q. Again, what morning?
A Sunday morning.
Q
The morning of January 23rd?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A.
Q.
Yes.
I'd like for you to start back again on the 22nd, what time
did you go to bed that night?
A.
> O PF LAM
P- DO FP OQ ©
Q.
About nine or ten.
Where were you staying? Where did you go to bed at?
At my mother's.
What is that address?
320 Illinois.
In what city?
Chickasha.
What county is this, ma'am?
Grady County.
And our state?
Oklahoma.
These are things I have to do for the record, Mrs. Keene.
Mrs. Keene, what people were at your mother's house that night of
January 22nd? —
A.
My mother, my brothers and sister's, Cindy, Darin, Wayne,
and myself and my two children, my two boys, and Charlesetta and
Bobby and her two kids.
Q.
What other people were in the little house adjacent to your
mother's or at some time in and out of the big house?
A.
Q.
A.
Tony.
Tony who?
Tony Mann.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
sane\ naw nee
> O FF AO YP LH
Q.
Any other people?
I don't know, I don't think so.
Do you know Ricky Jones?
Yes, I do.
Did you see him that night?
No, I did not.
The -- when you went to bed where did you actually sleep,
what part of the house?
A.
q.
A.
Q.
Upstairs.
How many bedrooms were upstairs?
One.
And you were upstairs with vour two small children, is
-that correct?
A.
A.
Q.
Right.
What time did you go to bea?
Probably about nine or ten, eleven, somewhere along in
I had been uv there all evening because my baby he was
asleep when I went up there.
The people that you named as being present in the house,
best of your knowledge they were there when you went to bed?
Yeah.
What time did you get up the next morning?
About nine or ten.
When you -- after you got up what caused you to have the
conversation with your brother, Tony Mann?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. My mom told me that I needed to talk to Tony.
Q. Where did you go to talk to Tony at?
A. To the little house.
Q. Who was in the little house when you went out there?
A. Tony -- I don't know who else.
Q. What was the full extent of the conversation that you had
with Tony when you went to the little house to talk to him?
A. I asked him if Charles was dead.
MR. McCONNEL: Your Honor, we would object to this.
THE COURT: Be overruled.
Q. Go ahead, ma'am.
A. t asked him and he said that I didn't have to worry no
“more, that I could go home. Then he gave me Charles knife and
lighter.
Q. What did you do when he told you about it?
A. ~ just looked at him, I didn't believe it.
Q. Mrs. Keene, do you recall testifying at preliminary
hearing?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What did you tell us at that time what was your reaction
when you were told your husband was dead?
A. I think I cried.
Q. You testified at that time that you cried, didn't you?
A. Yeah.
Q. If Charles was such a bad person why did you cry when you
Penny Moser, C€.5.BR.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
found out he'd been murdered?
MR. McCONNEL: Object to the form of the question, Your
Honor.
Q. When you found out he'd been killed?
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
A. I didn't really believe it.
Q. You didn't believe it why did you cry?
A. - Because I felt sorry for the man. You know, he needed help
and he wouldn't get it and I couldn't give it to him because we
was divorced and I couldn't put him anywhere to get him any help.
Q. Why did you feel sorry for him if you really believed he
wasn't dead?
; A. I don't know.
Q. What conversation did you have with your brother, Tony Mann,
about how Charles Keene was killed?
A. I didn't.
q. Someone just tells you that your husband has been killed
A. I didn't want to hear about it, you know.
Q. You didn't have any conversation or discussion about how he
died or anything about it?
A. No, I did not.
q. A few moments ago you said Tony Mann gave you Charles'
lighter and his knife?
A. Yeah.
Q. I show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit Number l,
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 if
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can you identify this for the jury, please, and the Court?
A. This is his knife.
q. Who's knife?
A. Charles.
Q. Is that the same knife that Tony Mann gave you the morning
of January 23rd?
A. Yeah.
O. State's Exhibit Number 2, can you identify this for the
Court and jury?
A. This is his lighter, Charles' lighter.
Q. Same lighter given to you by your brother, Tony Mann, on
the morning of January 23rd?
A
Q. Mrs. Keene, why didn't you go to a police department or
sheriif's office and tell them that your husband had been killed?
A. Because I didn't believe it.
Q. You didn't believe it but yet vou cried and you felt sorry
for him and yet you didn't believe it?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you not go to them, ma'am, because it was your brothers
Wayne Thompson and Tony Mann, who were involved in it?
A. I wouldn't have went to them if a total stranger, you know.
Q. You went to them over an incident in your trailer on the
dav before, Saturday afternoon, but you don't go to them when you
J 5 y g& y
know your husband has been killed?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
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A.
I didn't know that he'd been killed, I didn't see his body,
I was not there when it happened. I didn't know for a fact that i
was done.
Q.
A.
Who bought the shells, ma'am, that killed your husband?
I did, but I didn't buy them to kill him. I mean I bought
them for protection but I didn't buy them for that.
Q.
A.
Q.
When did you buy them, Mrs. Keene?
Saturday afternoon.
Right after you went to the trailer house and all that
happened you came back home, you took your brothers back to your
mother's house and then you went to Otasco and bought Winchester
Western Forty-five caliber shells, didn't you?
A.
Q.
‘Yes, I did.
Those same shells you took back to the house and what did
you do with those shells?
I put them up on a shelf with the gun.
Where did the gun -- this is the first time you've mentionec
where did you see the gun and where did it come from?
Tony gave it to me.
Tony Mann give you a gun? |
Yeah.
What kind of gun did he give you?
Forty-five automatic.
Was the gun loaded or unloaded when you got it to the house?
I loaded it after I got it, after I got the shells. Because
Penny Moser, C.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005 i
-think a person needs some type of protection when another man has
600
I had been shot at several times before from the man and guns
pointed at me and I wanted some type of protection for me and my
children.
Q. You'c been married to him since 1967?
A. 1974.
Q. Pardon me, '74. So nine vears later-- you'd been living
with this man and been around him for nine years and this day
right after the incicent at your trailer you tind it necessary to
go get shells to protect yourself?
A. I have took a gun home other times before for protection
when we was fighting. 12 had a gun pulled on me when I was seven
and a half months pregnant with my baby by him. I mean don't you
got a gun.
Q. Mrs. Keene, you weren't at Tony's, you were at your
mother's house?
A. That's right.
- 7 ' d
Q. What grown male adults were in your mother's house or aroun
it there?
A. Tony was the only one around but he was in and out. He had
been gone working on cars and he didn't want to leave me there.
Q. Your father, Mr. Thompson, wasn't at that house?
A. He may have been but he was in bed if he was.
Q. In fact, ma'am, your father, Mr. Thompson was at that house,
Bobby Glass was at that house and your sixteen year old -- fifteen
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
601
year old brother, Wayne Thompson, was at that house, your mother
is at that house and you're right in the middie of your family
for protection, are you not, ma'am? .
A. No, I'm not. My family-- he's come in my mother's house
before and drug me out and my children also.
q. They're his children too, weren't they, ma'am?
A. I raised them. They have his name and that's all they have.
He didn't feed them, he didn't support them, and he didn't take
care of them.
Q. Mrs. Keene, after you loaded the gun and put the shells
and the gun up on the shelf, what room of the house did you put
the gun?
~ A. In the kitchen.
Q. What people -- who showed you how to load the gun?
A. Tony showed me how.
Q. It was actually Tony Mann's gun?
A. Right. :
Q. Ke showed you how to load it?
A. Right.
QO. So when you put the gun up on the shelf who was there?
A. My mother, Darin, Wayne, and Cindy and Charlesetta and
Bobby and their kids and my kids.
Q. Where's Tony?
A. Well, Tony showed me how.
Q. As far as where the gun was placed in your mother’s house or
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(ANS\ 2PAT-2A671
24
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the shelf, the two males that you mentioned would have been Tony
Mann and Bobby Glass, is that right?
A. (no response)
Q. As to the trailer house incident on Saturday afternoon the
22nd, ma'am, wnere did the keys that were-- the other set of keys
when you were outside?
A. Uh-huh.
q. Where were those kevs, the other set that Charles had?
A. He had them, I don't know, see, I was not in the house when
Tony and Danny got the keys from him.
Q. Ma'am, did you know where those keys came from, how your
brothers actually produced those keys when they came out?
A. They toox them from him.
Q. That's my point, Mrs. Keene, the fact is that for the hour
Or so that you were in that trailer house talking to Charles Keene
Charies Keene didn't grab the butcher knife anytime while you were
house, did he?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. You haven't told us anything about that.
A. They was laying all around. When he was high on paint he
would think people was going to invade him or I was going to invade
him or a lot of different things like that.
q. Mrs. Keene, the first time I went through this with you when
I asked you to tell it in your own words you said that your
brother, Tony, was outside working on the car and you and Danny
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(ANS\ 2a7-AR7
tt
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are in the house talking to him and trying to persuade him to
leave. You never said one word about him having any knives or
doing anything about knives in that first hour or so that you
were in that trailer. My point is, ma'am, that you're outside
the trailer, your two brothers physically take the keys off of
Charles Keene before Charles Keene ever touches a knife, isn't
that right?
A. I don't know, I was not in the house.
Q. You didn't discuss that with your brother, Danny Mann?
A. No, I did not.
Q. I asked you the same questions at a previous hearing, ma'am,
and at that time you haven't discussed it with your brother, Danny
Mann, since then?
A. No, I have not.
Q. During the hour or so that you were in the trailer house
what did you do?
A. I sat there with Danny and Charles and tried to talk some
sense into him. Then I went to the bedroom and I put the rest --
he had his clothes already packed, he'd just come back from his
mother's. And his clothes was still in the suitcase, he'd never
unpacked them. So I got the rest of his clothes and put them in
a suitcase. Because I thought maybe Danny could persuade him to
leave, you know. And I went back there and did that and then I
come back in the living room.
Q. Your words just a moment ago, ma'am, were that he'd just
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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come back from his mother's and had his clothes in the suitcase
and you got the rest of his clothes and put them in his suitcase.
If you were not allowing Charles Keene to live in that trailer
house with you, as though it was his home as much as your's, what
were the rest of his clothes doing there?
A. I told you he had been living there, but it was not by my
saying, you know, you want to live here. Because I've asked the
man, I've told the man to move out and he wouldn't leave. He'd
leave and then he'd come right back. Because I've moved off and
left him before and he'd come.
Q. Mrs. Keene, what other conversations fave you had with any
people relating to -- the people I'm talking about are Wayne
‘Thompson, Bobby Glass, Ricky Jones, or your brother, Tony Mann,
in relationship to the death of Charles Keene?
A. I didn't have none.
MR. McCONNEL: I'd object to any answer of them except
as to Wayne Bhompson. _
THE COURT: Be overruled.
A. I didn't have none.
Q. Ma'am, you forgot the conversation about what Charles said
when he was killed. Did you ask Tony that?
A. Tony told me that Charles had told him to take care of his
boys.
C. Just a minute, ma'am, the trucks are pretty loud and we
can't hear you.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
THE COURT: Would you repeat your answer.
A. Tony had told me that Charles had told him to take care of
his boys and raise them right.
Q. When did Tony-- in relationship to him telling you that,
when was it that Charles told him that?
A. I don't know.
Q. Mrs. Keene, he told him that just as he was being killed,
did he not say that as his last words-- the way it was asked did
he say anything as he was killed or that he died?
MR. McCONNEL: Object to that as leading, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Be overruled.
A. I don't know. I don't know, I wasn't there. All I know is
that’s what Tony told me.
Q. When Tony told you to it wasn't Tony being asked by you
did he say anything as he died or as he was being killed? Wasn't
it asked that way, ma'am?
A. Did I ask Tony that?
Q. Wasn't it put in that context and that's when the state-
ment was made that that was his last words?
A. Yes, I guess so.
Q. What did you do the morning of January the 23rd after your
brother had told you that Charles was -- that you didn't have to
worry about Charles anymore.
A. I went in the house and I got my kids ready because I
wanted to go home. I wanted to see if anything was done at my
Penny Moser, C.5.F.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
sane nm Nowe
606
house and I went in and did that. I went out and I had a flat on
my car so I changed the tire and I was getting ready to go home and
Tony and them, they was getting up by then. And Bobby wanted to
go out to the river to check -- to put a gate up and to check and
see if there was a body in the water. I heard him telling this.
So I had started out to my car to get ready to go home and they
had pushed my dad's pickup and got it started and my dad he was
there and he don't like nobody driving his pickup. And so he
asked me if I'd take him. I said ‘yeah, I'll take you.' Because
I didn't believe that it was true. I thought well, I'll take him
and I'll see for myself. So we went out to the river out here
east on 62 underneath the bridge. I drove down there, there was
hme, Benny and Bobby. Benny McCarthy and Bobby Class. We drove
down there and I parked the car underneath it and we walked down
‘there and I didn't see anything. They-- we all three got out and
they walked down there too and there wasn't nothing to be seen.
We walked back up to the car and they had -- the fence was knocked
down and they picked it up, stood it back up. And we left and
come back to my mom's and then I went home and there wasn't
nothing at my house, I mean no sign of anything ever being wrong.
It looked like Charles had just left and took his suitcases with
him.
Q. In other words, your house wasn't the scene of disaray
there at Amber which related to a fight or anything of that nature,
is that correct?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. That's right.
Q. Bobby Glass actually took you, who went with you out there
at the river besides Bobby Glass?
A. Benny McCarthy. And we went in my car. I had a '76 white
Cldsmobile.
Q. So you weren't actually in your dad's pickup?
A. No we wasn't. Like I said he don't like nobody driving it
but him. And that's the reason I went is because I took my car.
C. What did you do with State's Exhibit 1 and 2, the knife
and the lighter?
A. Put them in my purse.
Q. How long did you keep them?
A. Until Terry Cunningham took them.
Q. You turned them over to Terry Cunningham, the county
deputy?
A. Yean.
Q. Bobby Glass actually took you to the location out there
at the river where your husband's body had been sunk in the water
out there?
A. That's where they said it had been done at.
Q. Will you tell us where Bobby Glass took you then, or where
he directed you to?
A. Out here 62 Highway, Washita River underneath the bridge.
I looked just as far as I could see, looked all around and I
didn't see anything. Except there was a brick sitting on the side
Penny Moser, 0.5.9.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
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|} of the river, a cylinder block, but that was it just a brick.
It looked like somebody took a brick out there to have something
to sit on when they was fishing, you know, I've done that before.
Q. There upon the bank of the river where they took you to,
underneath these bridges right here a mile and a half east of us,
you actually saw a large concrete block?
A. Un-huh.
Q Sitting there on the bank, did you not?
A Yes, I did
Q. Firs. Keene, from the time of January 23rd when you first
learned that your husband, Charles Keene, was killed when did you
ever go the the law enforcement authorities to see if the father
of your children--he'd been missing all that time, you didn't see
him?
A. Huh-uh.
QC. Vhen,ma'am, did you ever go to the law enforcement
authority and at least have somebody check to find out if vour
husbanc had been killed or not?
A. I didn't because he had left several other times and he'd
be gone a week, two weeks, and never call or anything you know, to
let us know where he was at. I didn't know.
Q. How did you and your brother, Danny Mann and Tony Mann, get
out to the trailer house on that Saturday afternoon the 22nd?
A. In Danny's car.
Q. What kind of a car does your brother, Danny Mann, have?
Penny Moser, C.5.RH.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A.
I think its a Buick, I don't know. I don't know what kind i:
is, its a mixture between an orange and a copper color, I don't
know what color. Its a diesel.
G.
I'm going to hand you three photographs, ma'am, marked as
State's Exhibit 16, 17, and 18 and ask you to identify those for
the Court and the jury.
A.
OQ
A.
G.
> O PP»
That's Danny's car.
Its a four door Oldsmobile, isn't it?
Oldsmobile.
Is that right, ma'am?
Yeah.
That's the car that you went out to your trailer house in
Degin with, is that right?
Right.
Oo
You came back to your mother's house who was actually --
that afternoon who actually had your brother, Danny Mann's, car?
A.
to
Q.
A.
Q.
I don't know if he had it or Tony had it. Danny had to go
work that afternoon so I don't really know.
Danny Mann had gone to work the afternoon of the 22nd?
Uh-huh.
That car, the one you just identified as belonging to
Danny Mann, that car was at your mother's house that afternoon or
evening of the 22nd, was it not?
A.
Q.
T don't know.
When you came back from getting the shells from Otasco are
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
fANB\ DAT.2GTW
you saying that the car wasn't there?
A. I don't know. Tony borrowed Danny's car all the time and
I don't -- and when Tony borrowed it most gererally it was for when
he went and got car parts and stuff like that, so I don't know.
Q. You don't recall seeing the car there then?
A. I don't remember.
MR. BURNS: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnell.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR.McCONNEL:
q. Vicky, where do you work now?
A. Delta Faucet.
~ Q. You've had to work throughout your adult life to support
your family, haven't you?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Living and being married to Charles was just an absolute
nightmare, wasn't it?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. During the last three or four years of his life did he ever
work at all?
A. No, he did not.
Q. In fact, he rolled winos here in town and took their money
didn't he?
A. Yes, he did.
MR. BURNS: I have an objection to the form of the
Penny Moser, C.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
question, Your Honor. It would be outside the scope of her
knowledge unless she was present and a party to that kind of crime
THE COURT: I'll sustain it.
Q. Charles lived a violent life and he took a lot of chances?
A Yes, he did.
Q Had you been shot at before?
A Yes.
Q. He had guns around a lot ?
A Yes.
Q. He pulled guns on you?
A Yes.
Q. Can you tell us how many times he had beaten you up to the
point where you had bruises?
A. fany times.
Q. More than ten?
A. Yes.
Q. Early in your testimony this afternoon you mentioned that
Charles was on paint on the day of January the 22nd, was there
anything unusual about that?
A. No.
Q. Just so the court and jury will understand this, what do you
mean by being on paint?
A. Higher than a kite.
Q. What kind of paint, in a car?
A. Spray can.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(A408) 247-3871 4
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1 Q. Spray can. Did you ever see him administer this paint to
himself?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How did he do it?
A. He sprayed it on a sock or a wash rag, some type of thick
type cloth and then he would roll it up to where he tried not to
get it on his mouth and then he would sniff it off of that.
Q. Any particular type or color of paint that he would use?
A Gold or silver.
Q. Why would he use gold or silver paint?
A I don't know, I guess it had more stuff to get high off of,
I don't know.
Q In fact, he started Wayne sriffing paint, didn’t he?
A Yes, he did.
Q. Were vou afraid of Charles?
A Yes.
q. The Friday, the day before this Saturday, he had beat you
and your mother both, hadn't he?
A. He'd beat me but not mother.
CG. Where was that, at your current house or your mother's
house?
A. My mother's house.
Q That wasn't anything unusual, was it?
A. No.
Q Mr. Burns was asking you if you found Charles such a
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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detestable person why did you keep going back to him and allowing
him around, you didn't have any choice, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
C. Were you afraid that if you had not allowed him to live in
your trailer house that he would harm you?
A. Yes, he'd either harm me or take my boys.
Q. Yad he on occasion carried out some of his threats by taking
your six year old son?
A. Yes, he had.
Q. And running away with him?
A. He took him to Texas one time and I -- in order to get my
son back I had to move to Texas because they wouldn't let me had
him back. I had went down here to a lawyer and told him what
had happened and he got papers fixed up so that lL could get my
child back. And Charles had left the state and he went to Texas
and they wouldn't honor the papers for me to get him back.
Q. If you didn't let Charles stay at your trailer house he
just slept in the vacant houses around town, places like that,
didn't he?
A.. Uh-huh.
MP. BURNS: Objection to the form of the question, Your
Honor, unless she knows of her own personal knowledge.
THE COURT: Be sustained unless she knows.
A. I know he slept in the car several times and out at the
river.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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Q. Did he have a regular residence of any typeé other than if
|you would allow him to come in anc crash at your place?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Now or this afternoon, the Saturday of January 22nd, the
reason your brothers came out there had to do with this argument
that started the day before, isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q Didn't just happen all of a sudden on Saturday?
A. No, it did not.
Q Started the day before?
A. Right.
Q. And the dav before was just basically just carrying over
oe .
with the last argument, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And it went that way week in and week out year around,
didn't it?
A. All the time almost every day it was an argument. _
Q. Did you see Charles on occasion beat up Wayne? |
A. Yes, he's hit Wayne several different times.
Q. He beat up some other members of your family?
A. Yes, my sister just younger than me, she had taken up for
me several different times when I was pregnant with my baby, he
would go to hit me and she'd get between us so he wouldn't causé
me to lose the baby.
Q. Now that lighter and that knife, you don't know, all you
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA = 73005
(405) 247-3671
know is that Tony gave it to you that night, you don't know of
your own knowlege when he got it, do you?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You didn't see him get it from Charles?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Tony had been present at your trailer house around noon or
sometime during the day on Saturday when Charles was chasing them
around with the butcher knife, hadn't he?
A. Yes.
q. Was that the first time he'd ever pulled a knife on you or
a member of your family?
A. No, it isn't.
Q. Did you hear of any plan, did anybody talk about killing
Charles?
A NO.
Q Anybody planned on doing it?
No.
Oo PLP
In fact, Charles was just a real problem for everybody
around here, wasn't he?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. His parents lived here for a while, didn't they?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And they moved away to get away from him, didn't they?
A. Yes, they did.
q. They knew he needed help, didn't they?
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
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-
A. Yeah, they knew he needed help but they wouldn't help him
get it. I begged them to put him in Norman or Vinita or somewnere
to get him dried out on it and maybe straighten his life out.
Because he had a good personality when he was straight. You know,
he was real nice to talk to but you hardly ever caught him straight
Q. How long hac his personality been varied or obscured by
this paint sniffing and use of drugs?
A. Ever since we got married. I thought you know, when we
got married I was fifteen and he was eighteen, and I thought well,
you know, he'll grow out of it. You know, we'll both grow up,
we'll grow up together. Well, I growed up and he didn't. He just
kept getting worser and worser. And he knew he needed help but
he wouldn't ever go try to get any. I told him, you know, I
will take you.
Q. Did he go to jail a lot?
A. Yeah, he did.
Q. Do you know that he got out of a lot of cases by giving
the police information on other people?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You say that when you went down to the river there was a
block on the side of theriver?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You're talking about a concrete block that has got a big
hole in the middle or just basically all hole and concrete is just
the edge of it?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANAOARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005 :
es eee ?
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A. Uh-huh.
Q. Could you tell whether or not that had been there a while?
A. No, not really, it was just sitting there.
Q. This car that they've talked about that your brother, Danny
Mann, had, an Oldsmobile diesel?
A. Yes.
Q. He used that to drive to work in the oil field?
A. Yes.
Q. Drive on bad roads?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it be unusual for him to have blocks in the back of
that truck for traction?
“A. No, I put hay and bricks and everything else in the back
of my pickup and cars to -- when the road was muddy and icy to
keep it weighted down so it wouldn't be so bad to slice. And he
went everywhere in it in the oil field.
Q. Vickv, in closing I want to ask you one question, did you
see anything at all that day or that entire weekend that lead you
to believe in anyway that anybody was planning to kill Charles?
A. No, I didn't.
MR. McCONNEL: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Burns. |
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
Q. Vicky, Mrs. Keene, Charles has slapped on you and beat on
Peony Maser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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|filed tresspassing charges on Charles Keene so the sheriff would
you and Charles had been at your house and wouldn't leave and from
the time you got a divorce how many times did you come down here
and swear out a comolaint for Assault and Battery on Charles Keene,
how many times did you come up here and swear out a complaint for
tresspassing on Charles Keene?
A. Well, I had a restraining order.
Q. Will you answer the question, please. A restraining order
is only in effect, ma'am, while you have your divorce pending.
How many times after you got a divorce when he no longer had any
right on your property or any right to touch you, how many times
have you ever filled out an Assault and Battery complaint on
Charles Keene? How many times have you ever come down here and
have those papers he was talking about to go get Charles Keene?
A. None.
Q. As to the property he had on him at the time he was killed
the conversation you had with Tory. Mr. McConnel asked the questiop
that you don't know when Tony Mann got those items, the lighter
or the knife, is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you recall testifying in the sworn statement that you
gave at the time the charge was filed-- its on page 122 of the
O.S.B.1. report. The question was asked and I'm going to put it
in your response "And I went out there and he was still in bed
and he got up and I --well, he raised up out of bed and I said
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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Tony, is Charles really dead. Ana he said "yeah, Vicky, you
won't have to worry about him no more. He said you can go home
and not worry about him coming up to the house. So then he gave
me that knife and lighter. He said this is all that he had on
him so I took it from him."
In the context of what you testified to earlier, Tony Mann
was it not clear, ma'am, that Tony Mann or the group that he was
with took that knife and that lighter off of Charles Keene at the
time they killed him?
A. I don't know when they took it. I was not there.
q. "That's all he had on him" That's all they gave you, is
that correct,ma'am?
r oA. That's all they gave me, yes.
q. Mrs. Keene, you said Charles Keene never worked, now is
that true?
A. The first year we was married he had thirteen W-2 forms
and he worked maybe one or two days at each job. And the last
year he made $500.00.
Q. Well, is it true that he never worked, ma'am?
A. He never worked, he never held down a job.
Q. Well, he maybe not have held the same job but is it true
that he never worked?
A. He never worked.
Q. Mrs. Keene, I hand you what as been marked as State's
Exhibit Number 33 and ask you if you can identify that for the
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
r 1 |} Court and jury?
2 A. This is a letter that I wrote to Charles' parents asking
3 || them if they'd seen Charles. .
4 Q. Would you read that for the Court and jury.
5 A. "Hi, Lavonne, Sonny and girls. Thought I would write a
6 few lines to let you know we are fine. But Charles has left, is
7 \lhe out there or have you heard from him? Me and him got into it
8 || because he started sniffing paint again. I was tired of supporting
9 ||/him. I haven't heard from him since he left. It has snowed here
10 || about four inches. They let us off at one o'clock Friday because
ll || of the weather. The kids are doing fine. Jessie goes back to
12 || the doctor “Wednesday. They will check his blood. I hope he is
e 13 || all right. He is crawling everywhere. Brian is doing fine. He
14 loves the snow. J’id Charles work while he was out there? Let
15 ||} me know something. Write or call at work. My number is 224-2456.
16 I have been trying to get on ...(inaudible) I hope to get
17 |) something soon. Well, guess I will close for now. Love Always,
18 || Vicky, Brian and Jessie."
19 q. What is the date of the postmark on that letter, ma'am?
20 A. 17th of February.
21 Q. Ma'am, Charles Keene's body wasn't found until the 18th
22 || of February, is that right?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. So the day before your husband's body is found, you haven't
25 || given any statements to any police officers, you're writing a
© Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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days later, twenty-four days later, you're writing a casual letter
casual letter to your ex-inlaws wanting to know where Charles
was at. You're inquiring about this man who never works, you're
even asking if he worked while he was out there, is that right,
ma'am?
A. That's right. Because he come home a lot and told me he
was expecting a check in the mail and I didn't believe he had
worked. Which he did not work while he was out there. But he told
me that he had.
Q. The point is,ma'am, you've been told by your brothers
that your husband had been murdered. You've been told and actually
gone to the place where the body was sunk in the river and that
was back on January 23rd. And here some seventeen anc seven
to his parents like Charles is still floating around out there
someplace.
A. I did not know he was dead. I didn't see him killed. I
didn't go into the river to see if his body was in the river and
I didn't see anything out there. And I didn't believe that he was
dead.
Q. This Exhibit 33, this envelope and letter is all your
writing and its a letter you wrote?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. BURNS: Your Honor, I would offer State's Exhibit
33 into evidence.
MR. McCONNEL: No objection.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 }
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THE COURT: Be admitted.
MR. BURNS: At this time, Your Honor, we'd also offer
what is marked as State's Exhibits 1 and 2, being the knife and
lighter which Vicky Keene received from Tony Mann.
MR. McCONNEL: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
MR. BURNS: I have no further questions of the witness.
MR. McCONNEL: Just one question, Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. McCONNEL:
Q. On the very day of the Saturday the 22nd you went to
Sheriff Taylor's house, didn't you, to report what had happened at
-your trailer?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And on many occasions you went to law enforcement people
to get help against Charles?
A. Yes, I did.
MP. McCONNEL: That's all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
Q. Ma'am, Sheriff Taylor told you that he had to have -- and
you called it papers from the court to go out there.
A. Restraining order.
Q. Well, papers from the court meaning an order or an arrest
warrant or something to get him off that property. You didn't
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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come to the courthouse to do that, did you?
A. No, I did not.
You never did that, did you, ma'am?
Not after that, no.
OO YP 0
No, ma'am, you never came to the courthouse to file
Assault and Battery charges or a tresspass charge and your
parents never came in an filed a Disturbing the Peace charge and
never one time did you file and get a warrant to go arrest Charles
Keene for doing all these things that you're now saying he did?
A. When I called them out there-- I have called them to ny
house several times and they didn't do it then, they ain't going
to do it no other time. If they do they just give him a $35.00
fine and he's going to be out.
Q. But you let him move back in every time, didn't you, ma’am?
A. When somebody threatens to burn my house down and take my
kids what else, what other choice do I have. Wher I had the
restraining order on him they let him nail my windows and doors
up and wouldn't let me in my own house. The house that IL had
the restraining order against him for.
Q. Well, is pretty obvious that you didn't file charges
"not after that", the phrase that you said a few moments ago.
Because after that Charles was dead, isn't that right?
A. I didn't know that he was dead. All I knew that he was
gone. I mean they had said that he was dead but I didn't know
for a fact. I still didn't believe it after he was out of the
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
aa ek moe news
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river until I seen part of his body.
Q. You're saying in your household you've got your mother
there, Dorothy Thompson, who was washing clothes the night
before for the men who went out and killed your husband, you've
got a brother, Wayne Thompson, in that household and vou've got
a brother, Tony Mann, in that household and vet you're never
around any people and had any discussions about the death or the
murder of the father of your two sons?
A. No, I didn't.
MR. McCONNEL: Your Honor, I object. That would be
outside the scope of recross.
THE COURT: That will be sustained. And the jury will
= ° . . e
be admonished that portions of that question have not been
admitted into evidence at this time.
MR. BURNS:. No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. You can be excused.
We'll be in recess for about fifteen minutes. Ladies and
gentlemen of the jury, I'll admonish you not to converse among
yourselves or with anyone else in any subject connected with the
trial. Or to form or express your opinion about this case until
it is finally submitted to you. If anyone attempts to speak to
you please advise me.
(Whereupon, recess was taken and the following in
camera hearing was held as follows)
THE COURT: Go back on the recorc. Show we are having
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
an in camera hearing with regard to a video tape and also State's
Exhibits 12 and 13. Show the presence of the State, the presence
of the defendant and his attorney. We are having this hearing to
review the tape and the photographs out of the presence of the
jury.
MR. BARESEL: First of all, Your Honor, with regard to
State's Exhibits 12 and 13 I've prepared a written form of 4
stipulation and given Mr. McConnel an opportunity to go over it
and examine it after having seen State's Exhibits 12 and 13. And
it is my understanding that he's prepared at this time to join
with me in that stipulation. It involves two drawings only, 12
and 13, which were drawings by Harvey Pratt and lists thereon
“measurements. And I believe I have the stipulation accurately
stated.
THE COURT: My indication, 12 and 13 are drawings of
the crime scene again depicted with measurements listed, is that
correct, Mr. McConnel?
MR. McCONNEL: That's correct.
THE COURT: Your stipulation is that he is an agent
with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and he prepared
those and that they are true and accurate representations of
the crime scene and that the measurements are accurate.
MR. McCONNEL: That that is what he would say if he were
here.
THE COURT: All right. And you understand that a
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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stipulation is an agreement that that is wnat he would testify
to?
DEFENDANT: I don't even understand what y'all are
talking about.
THE COURT: All right. If you'll step around and look
at the exhibit there. The stipulation just says that you are
agreeing that if he testified that those are accurate drawings.
DEFENDANT: Oh, okay.
TPE COURT: That way the officer coes not have to come
testify that he made the drawings. He knows nothing else about
the case. Do you understand what we're doing now?
DEFENDANT: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. That will be the stipulation.
IR. BARESEL: Your Honor, we'd ask that that also be
read to the jury prior to Randy Jackson testifying. He is the
one that will make the drawings relevant.
THE COURT: All right. I'll just read the stipulation
to them. -
MR. BARESEL: In addition, Your Honor, we have a series
of photographs of the scene including -- which are marked as
State's Exhibits 4 through State's Exhibit 1l. 4 is the gate
approach, 5 is the river bank, 6 is the river, 7 shows the
measurement of water over the body, 8 is a photograph of the back
of the deceased showing the belt, 9 shows the full length with
the block attached, 10 shows the chest and neck wounds and 11
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Nw
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shows the top head wounds. We intend to offer these at the --
during the same testimony of Randy Jackson.
THE COURT: Any objection to State's 4, 5, 62
MR. McCONNEL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Those will be admitted and they show
the river bank. I do request that you make a proper foundation for
that. 7, 8?
MR. McCONNEL: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: 7, again showing the crime scene approximate
distance and measurement. State's Exhibit 8 shows Charles, be
admitted. State's 9, 10,11, any objection, Mr.McConnel?
MR. McCONNEL: We object to those, Your Honor, as being
‘gruesome and more prejudicial than useful. Im fact, they might
inflame and impassion the jury here.
THE COURT: lr. Baresel, your response?
MR. BARESEL: Your Honor, at the outset they are true
and accurate depictions of the crime scene. There are only three
of those photographs. They will be testified to by a witness who
observed the body as it was recovered. They will also be used by
the doctor in his explanation of the wounds. The photographs
themselves corroborate the doctor's testimony as well as several
other witnesses testimony in this trial as to the nature and
location of the wounds.
THE COURT: I will make this finding. ‘The probative
value outweighs the prejudicial effect of these photographs. They
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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are relevant to show the condition of the body at the time it was
recovered. The wounds at the time they were recovered and
location of the body. They will be admitted. I will note your
exception.
MR. BARESEL: In addition, Your Honor, we have a video
tape that the Court and Mr. McConnel have both had an opportunity
to see. And we would request at the outset to be allowed to show
the entire video tape to the jury. And in the alternative to be
allowed to show from inch eleven to inch twenty-three, which as
the Court and counsel know, deal with the measurement out to
where the body is found, recovery of the body from the river,
and stop at the point where you can see a long term view of the
“body including the chain and the block. They are relevant first
to the issues of venue, second to the issue of identification,
third to the manner in which the body was attempted to be
concealed corroborating several of our lay witnesses, and allow
the jury-- and it is the best evidence we can offer to the jury
of all the things I've outlined. And the Court has indicated --
as I think that the Court should indicate for the record that inch
twenty-three stops before any close-ups of the body showing
any of the wounds.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnell?
MR. McCONNEL: Your Honor, having viewed the video tape
just a few minutes ago the defendant would object to its use,
utilization and introduction into evidence at the trial for the
Penny Moser, 0.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
reason that among other things the video tape has the same effect
as repeatedly showing slides, gruesome slides, in this video tape
there are gruesome shots of the alleged victim in this homicide.
I think that it only emphasizes and reemphasizes to the jury
matters that are covered less graphically by the medical examiner.
The medical examiner has drawings of how this man was injured,
where he was injured, the medical-- there was a medical person
there at the scene who found him and who could testify and be used
to identify the circumstances under which ke was found. I think
it has been established that the man is dead. And to show this
very colorful and graphic video tape would do nothing but to excite
and imflame the passions of the jury and we vould object.
~ THE COURT: I have viewed the entire tape and I do find
that certain portions of that do tend to be repetitious to place
that in front of the jury. I will allow the portions of the
video tape starting from eleven to twenty-two-- twenty-three. And
I have instructed the operator and the technician as to the amount
of thet that I will admit. I find that the probative value out-
weighs the prejudicial effect again of this video tape. Its
relevant to show the condition of the body at the time of
recovery, location and venue. Also shows the wounds, shows the
block, chain and the position of those as they were taken from the
river. That portion of it will be admitted. I'm assuming that
you object to even that portion of the tape and you are requesting
that the entire portion not be admitted?
Penny Moser, C.5.fi.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
+405) 247-3671
hd
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Your Honor.
THE
gentlemen?
MR.
THE
trial for the
MR.
that we will
with some of
MR.
MR.
we have Mr. Jackson who will identify the tape and the photographs
for us. At that time we will follow with most likely Miss
Bradford, we
is brief.
THE COURT: Will that complete the State's case?
MR.
(Whereupon, in camera hearing was completed and
proceedings resumed as follows)
THE COURT: Show the presence of the jury in the box,
the presence
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
McCONNEL: Right. Object to the entire video tape,
COURT: That will be overruled. Anything else,
BARESEL: Not at this time.
COURT: Do we have anything-- will this get us throug}
next say hour, hour and a half?
BARESEL: Yes, Your Honor. It is my understanding
put on one more lay witness and then we'll start
our technical witnesses and be done.
“cCONNEL: Who do we put on next?
BURNS: We have Miss Garcia, Your Honor, and then
have Dr. Jordon and we kave Mr. Looney. Mr. Looney
BURNS: Yes, sir, it will, in chief.
of the State, the defendant and his attorney.
- CHARLESETTA GARCIA
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 ‘A
A.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BARESEL:
Q. Would you state your name, please?
A. Charlesetta Garcia.
Q. And how old are you, Charlesetta?
A. Twenty-two.
Q. Do you know an individual named Bobby Class?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know Bobby Glass?
A. How do I know him?
q. Yes, ma'am.
A. We stayed over at Dorothy Thompson's together.
r Q. For how long?
A. About two months, somewhere along in there, three months.
Q. Were you staying there on the night of January 22nd?
A. Yes.
Q. Calling your attention to the evening hours, the late hours
that night, did Tony Mann and Ricky Jones and Wayne
Thompson have occasion to leave the house?
Yes.
How do you know they left?
I seen them leave.
Anybody else go with them?
They took Stacy Knight home.
Bobby Glass go with them?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
QD PrP OD > DO Pb
A.
Yes.
How did Bobby Glass end up going with them?
They asked him if he wanted to go.
How long were they gone?
I really don't know how long.
Where was you at when they came back?
I was in the -- Tony Mann's house asleep. That's where
we were going to stay.
Q.
A.
Q.
change
A.
If I said that's the little house would I be right?
Yes.
Did they wake you up when they came in?
Yes, they did.
What did Ricky and Tony do after they came into the little
Change clothes.
Did they get undressed and go to bed or did they just
clothes to stay up?
They got dressed, just changed clothes. They didn't go
straight to bed.
Q. What did Bobby do?
A. He come over there and asked me if I was okay.
Q. What happened to Tony Mann's clothes and Ricky Jones’
clothes?
A. Dorothy Thompson came and got them and washed them.
Q. What happened to Bobby Glass' clothes?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
sane’ nate news
A. She took them also.
Q. Calling your attention to the next morning, Sunday morning,
did somebody take Danny Mann's car and wash it?
A. Yes.
Q Who?
A. Tony Mann and Ricky Jones.
Q I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.
A. Tony Mann and Ricky Jones.
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with Bobby Glass about
where Charles Keene's body was located?
MR. McCONNEL: May we approach the bencn, please, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
MR. McCOMMEL: Once again I make the same objection to
this matter being hearsay conversation outside the presence of
my client. I would ask the court for a continuing objection |
without having to make an objection each time.
THE COURT: That will be overruled. You may have the
continuing objection.
(Whereupon, record at the bench completed, proceedings
resumed as follows)
Q. Did you have any conversation with Bobby Glass about. where
Charles Keene's body was located?
A. Yes.
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OXLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A.
bridge
Q.
Where were you when you had the conversation?
Coming off the turnpike.
Right out here?
Yes.
What did Bobby say?
He said if anybody asked me-- he pointed over to that
and told me that's where it was to tell then.
Right out here about a mile and a half to the east of
where we are right now?
A.
Q.
Yeah, out there by the turnpike where we were getting off.
A couple days after that Saturday did you see Wayne Thompson
carrying around a pair of boots?
~ A.
Yes, I did.
Where were you at?
In the living room by the furnace.
How long have you known Wayne Thompson?
We've known him for a long time but I've never been around
him that much.
OO fF OD PP OO YP
Is he present here in the courtroom?
Huh?
Is Wayne present here in the courtroom?
Yes, he is.
Would you point him out to the jury?
He's sitting over there on the other side -- over there.
What was Wayne doing with these boots?
Penny Moser, 0.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
tN
24
25
rw)
8]
rt
on
(D
r O fF O PF CL
BY MR.
He was carrying them out the door.
Did you have a conversation with Wayne about those boots?
Yes.
Why?
I seen some hair on them and I asked him where he had
it and he told me.
What did he say?
He said that's where he kicked Charles Keene in the head.
Did you have any other conversations with Wayne?
Yes.
What else did Wayne say that he did?
He said that he cut his throat and his chest and shot him
head.
He said he cut who's throat?
Charles Keene.
Who's chest?
Charles Keene.
Shot who in the head?
Charles Keene.
MR. BARESEL: I have-no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr.McConnel.
CROSS EXAMINATION
McCONNEL:
Charlesetta, where do you live now?
Where do I live now?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(403) 247-3671
24
25
Q. Yes.
A. Lawton, Oklahoma.
Q. When did you move away from Chickasha?
A. I lived up there for about five months now.
Q. How long had you lived here in Chickasha before you moved
away?
A. I lived here all my life.
Q. You went to school here then?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. How far did you go in school?
A. Tenth.
Q. Tenth grade?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you finish it or drop out during it?
A. I just quit.
Q. During the year?
A. It was at the end of the year pretty well. _
Q. You were in special education, weren't you?
A. Yes, because I had some things I had to make up.
Q. Today you've talked about January 22rd, you were engaged
and living with,engaged to and living with Bobby Glass, is that
right?
A. I wasn't engaged, but I was going with him.
Q. You'd been going with him about two months, is that right?
A. Uh-huh.
Penny Moser, C.5.—.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Q. You had two kids by a previous marriage, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are originally a McCarthy, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And Benny, who testified here earlier today is your younger
brother?
A. Yes.
Q. And you're what about twenty-two years old?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you also have a younger brother named Gordon who is
about sixteen?
A. Yes.
Q. And your parents live around here down on Fourth Street
right around the corner from the Thompson house at 320 Illinois?
A. Yeah.
Q. Prior to the time you moved into Dorothy Thompson's home
there you and Bobby had been living at your parent's house, is
that right?
A. No, I had an apartment.
Q. You had an apartment. Bobby had some money at that time,
didn't he?
A. Not at the present time.
Q. In January of last year, 1983, didn't te have $4,000 or
$5,000 cash on hand?
A. It was back in February around the first, somewhere around
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
24
25
there.
Q. Where did he get that cash?
A. He had a settlement coming.
Q. When you were first interviewed by law enforcement
authorities in this case you were still going with Bobby,
weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And Bobby was picked up later on in February of this
year, wasn't he?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. He was taken to jail?
A. Yes.
Q. And you broke up with him about a month or two after he
went to jail, is that right?
A. Probably not a whole month, about three weeks, somewhere
around there.
Q. Three weeks after he'd been in jail. At the time you were
interviewed by law enforcement you were still going with Bobby,
is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't want to see Bobby get in trouble if you could
help it, did you?
A. I wouldn't lie for him.
Q. But you didn't want to get in trouble?
A. No.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Q. Weren't you one of the first persons to give a statement
to authorities as far as you know?
A. As far as I know I guess, I don't know.
Q. Now living there in the Thompson house you and Bobby just
basically slept on the living room floor, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you'd been doing so for about one month, is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you'd only been going together one month before that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Before you moved into the Thompson house?
r OA. Uh-huh.
Q. And its a large family, right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And your two children were there in the house with you?
A. Yes. ;
Q. Did they sleep on the floor with you?
A. Yes.
q. Now then on this morning of January the 23rd that you're
talking about haven't you on other occasions said that you talked
to Wayne several days later?
A. (no response)
Q. Referring to a hearing held in this matter-- Mrs. Garcia
what is your name now?
Penny Maser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A Huh?
| Q. Your name is no longer Garcia?
| A No, its Crow.
Q What is your married name?
A. Crow.
Q. Crow, C-R-O-W?
A Yes.
Q. Mrs. Crow, I'll ask you if you recall a hearing that was
held in this matter the very first time you testified on March the
29th, 1983 over in the other courtroom here in this building, do
you remember that hearing?
A. Uh-huh.
r Q. On that day I'll ask you if these questions were asked on
page 52 by me and if you gave the answers that I'll read here.
"All right. Mow then this conversation that you talk about here
in your testimony, where did that take place?" Your answer:
'
i"It was over at Dorothy's." Question: "At Dorothy's?" Answer:
"Yes." Question: "At approximately what time of day was it, day
or night?" Answer: "I have no idea, it was in between there I
guess."' Question: "Early evening?" Your answer: "Something like
that, but I never paid any attention to the time." Question: "You
don't remember what day it was?" Answer: "No, I don't." Question:
"And you can't tell me whether it was a week day or a weekend day?"
Answer: "I believe it was through the week, I believe."
Do you remember those questions being asked and those answers
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
4405) 247-3671
24
25
being given at that hearing?
A. Yes.
MR. BARESEL: Judge, I would object. I think its
improper if he is claiming to be impeaching her he didn't hear
her answers earlier. She said they cleaned the car on Sunday and
she had the conversation with Wayne several days later. He's
attempting to do something like impeach with prior inconsistent
testimony that is not inconsistent and I have an objection ifhe's
reading that testimony to the jury unless he wants to mark it and
introduce it as an exhibit for them to read themselves.
THE COURT: Be overruled. Gentlemen, could you approach
the bench.
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
THE COURT: Your objection is as to form?
MPR. BARESEL: He is reading a statement to her. I
haven't heard where you're allowed to read and try to impeach
somebody with something without having a basis to impeach them on.
TPE COURT: Her answers are somewhat confusing. If you
will ask her and then lay your foundation to impeach her by the
question. |
YR. BARESEL: That's the same thing she has testified
to that it was a couple days later, so that is improper impeach-
ment.
THE COURT: All I'm asking is that when you ask her the
question if she admits or denies then you lay your foundation.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. CKLAHOMA 73005
(ANS) 2aA7-AKT71
MR. McCONNEL: Okay. Okay.
(Whereupon, record at the bench completed, proceeding
resumed as follows)
Q. Okay. Charlesetta, when you were standing there in the
living room, you savy you were in the front room of the Thompson
residence, about how far were you from Wayne?
A. I don't know approximately how far.
Q. About like from me to you?
A. No, closer than that. Probably about from here to the
table, you know, crossways.
Q. From me to you? (indicating) Show that I'm standing about
ten feet away from her.
A. Somewhere around there, I don't know approximately.
G. And what day of the week did that conversation take place,
do you remember that?
A. I don't know what day.
Q. No you remember whether the younger kids were arourc there
that day or were they away in school? 7
A. I think they were there.
Q. Do you remember whether Donetta Bradford was there that
day, Wayne's girlfriend?
A. Yes.
Q. She was there, too?
A. Yeah, but she had to go kome.
Q. She had to go home, she didn't have to go to school?
Penny Moser, C.S.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. I don't think so, I'm not for sure.
Q. On the day when you heard this conversation do you remember
what time you got up that day?
A. No, I don't know what time.
Q. But you did sleep in the living room on the floor like
always?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did Wayne sleep if you know? Did he have a
bedroom of his own?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew where he was?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw him getting up that morning and coming out his
bedroom then you would know where he would most likely have slept
that night and where he would come from when he was getting up,
wouldn't vou?
A. Yes. 7
Q. And when you're saying that you saw him come into that room
did you notice where he came from to get into the living room?
A. Well, he came out of the kitchen.
Q. You said he had some boots?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now do you know if they were all going huntirg that day,
did anyone make it obvious to you that there was a group of the
family there that was going to go out and go hunting?
Penny Moser, 0.5.8.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
A. No.
Q. You didn't know that. Do you remember that it was a snowy
day that day? Was it wet outside, do you remember that?
A. Its been so far back.
Q Are these the boots that you say you saw that day?
A They were supposed to be steel toed.
Q These aren't steel toed. Does that look like them?
A. I didn't get a good look at them. I just seen the bottom.
Q Are these the boots that you saw that day?
A I think so because they were black.
Q You're trying to send this man to the death penalty and you
think so?
MR. BARESEL: Judge, can we approach the bench just a
moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Whereupon, the following recora was made at the bench)
MR. BARESEL: Judge, I have an objection to sidebar.
comments. If Mr. McConnel wants to start making those in the
courtroom I will cheerfully respond. We can show the jury how
indulgent we are at the expense of the witnesses.
“R. McCONNEL: I'll withdraw that.
MR. RARESEL: I'd ask the jury be admonished to disregard
that comment.
(Whereupon, record at the bench completed, proceedings
resumed as follows)
Penny Maser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
*
(408) 247.1671 ?
24
25
THE COURT: You'll be admonished to disregard the last
comment made by Mr. McConnel.
q. Charlesetta, I notice you had -- for the record you had
to look at these an awful long time before you gave your answer.
I'm sorry to get a little emotional with you but I just wanted to
make it plain that you don't seem to be very sure, is that correct?
A. I didn't look at the boot, I just seen the bottom.
Q. Well, what did he do walk past with it turned up like this?
A. No, he had the top part of it covered up and everything, lI
just seen the sides of the bottom.
Q. Carrying them like this? (indicating)
A. No, up under his arm.
Q. Up like this? Walk through the living room with the boots
under his arm like this? (indicating)
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you saw hair on the bottom of them, is that right?
A. Yes. |
Q. Cn the bottom of these slick boots?
A. I didn't see the very bottom, I seen the side.
Q. You saw the side of the boot?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't see the bottom?
A. No, the hair was on there, you could see it.
Q. Excuse me?
A. You could see the hair from there.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
24
25
Q. On which boots, right or left?
A. I don't know.
Q. And were you about the distance that I am right now, being
about ten feet?
A. I guess, it could be, I’m not for sure.
Q. And did Wayne just stand there with you like this under
his arm and talk to you?
A. He didn't have them pointed like that.
Q. Did he stand here like this and talk to you? Where were
these boots that you saw this hair you keep talking about?
A. The hair was sticking out and on the sides from the -- I
seen it from the sides as he was going out the door.
Q. Sticking out from where?
A. It was just sticking out.
Q. Every direction? Hair all over everywhere, big, big
bunches of hair?
A. Not that much.
Q. I'm not sure what your answer was, do these look like the
boots or not?
A. Ail I know is they were black steel-toed boots.
Q. But you can't say whether
A. I didn't get a good look at them.
Q. Now, your younger brother, Gordon, is probably the person
in age the closest to Wayne, is that right?
A. Yes, he is.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
fane\ 947 20678
ene Cr
Q
<°
And you wouldn't consider yourself a close confident of
Wayne, would you? In other words somebody that he would sit down
and talk over his problems about?
A.
Q.
No.
In fact, wouldn't it be fair to say that you weren't very
close to Wayne at all?
A. 1:
C.
A.
Q.
Ue used to come over where we lived with Gordon.
But not to see you?
No.
And on this occasion that you've talked about where Wayne
according to you made these statements, was it just you and him
in the entire house or were there other people around?
A.
There was other people but not around us.
MR. McCONNEL: No further questions.
TEF COURT: Mr. Baresel.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BARESEL:
How did Wavne act when you asked him that question?
He grinned at me when he was telling me.
Proud of himself?
That's the way he acted.
MR. BARESEL: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnel?
MR. McCONNEL: Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. You may be excused. Call your
Penny Moser, C.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
next witness.
MR. BURNS: Randy Jackson.
RANDY JACKSON
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the trust, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MP. BURNS:
Q. State your name, please?
A. Randy Jackson.
Q. Mr. Jackson, how are you employed right now?
A Deputy Sheriff of Grady County.
How were you employed in the month of January, 1983?
Deputy Sheriff, Grady County.
QO PP A
Tell the jury approximately January and February, particu-
larly February the 18th, 1983, what homicide investigation you
were working on?
A. Charles Keene.
Q. Tell the jury what bodies if any you recovered in regard
to this investigation?
A. Charles Keene.
Q. Where at?
A. Washita River.
Q. Where at from right here, describe the location, please?
A. Its a mile and a half east on Highway 62.
Q. There are two bridges, a north bridge and a south bridge,
Penny Moser, C.5.fi.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
ON VR
24
25
which one did you find the body under?
A. North bridge.
Q. And tell the jury where at from the bridge you found the
body?
A. Be close to the west bank on the north side of the north
river bridge.
Q. I'd like to go through some diagrams with you first. I'd
like for you to use the ruler if you would. I direct your
attention to what is marked as State's Exhibit Number 12. Will
you describe for the jury what you just told us about where you
found the body of Charles Keene.
A. When we got there we came down a dirt road on the south side
of the south river bridge and traveled all the way under bridges
and across the dykes and this is where I found the body.
(indicating)
QC. So the road to get into the north bridge, actually you get
off on the east bound lane on a dirt road that pulls off the
embankments and goes along parellel to the west bound-- pardon me,
east bound lane. And you pull under the south bridge over to the
north bridge?
A. Right. And this is about where we stopped. (indicating)
Q. In the diagram, the diagram reflects certain measurements
would you again relate these measurements and who made those
measurements or assisted you in making them?
A. The ©C.S.B.1. and the deputies.
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
- (405) 247-3671
Q. How far into the water did you find the body of Charles
Keene?
A. I'm not for sure how far it was, it was about ten or
twelve feet from the edge of the bank.
Q. The diagram reflects twenty feet, ten inches from the
pillar to where the body is marked?
A. That would be the distance from the pillar to the body.
Q. The pillar sits up on the bank not actually from the bank?
A. Right.
Q. For the purpose for which its offered, is the diagram a
true and accurate representation of the physical facilities there
and the location of the body from the piers and from the location
tof the bridges?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Would you also direct your attention to State's Exhibit
Number 13, and further describe this for the jury and the court.
A. This is again measurement from the pillar to where the body
was in the water.
Q. As you can see from the diagram showing that as your
estimate was, approximately ten feet from the bank out to where
the body was found that it is approximately half way from the bank
back to the pillar?
A. True.
Q. Is that diagram a true and accurate representation of a
more detailed close-up of the location of the body in relation to
Penny Moser, €.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671 j
24
25
‘water in the middle of the winter?
which you personally observed during the course of this investiga-
tion and recovery of Charles Keene's body?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. The actual recovery of Mr. Keene's body from the water,
first of all tell this jury how you found Charles Keene?
A. We were just going out to find, try and find and locate
the body and I'd waded into the river to find the channel ard was
walking along the edge of the channel and kicked the concrete
block and recovered the body.
Q. What wes the weather and the temperature like at that time?
A. It was a warm day but the water was real cold.
Q. How were you dressed, how were you able to walk out in the
A. I was in a wet suit.
Q. Yow were you able to stand in the water with regard to the
swiftness of the river at that location?
A. We tied a rope around my waist and somebody on the bank
held on to the rope. |
Q. How were the measurements made from the location of the body
out to the water back to the bank?
A. I held the end of the tape and 0.S.B.I. was on the bank.
Q. And tell the jury what efforts were taken to preserve the
actual recovery of the body, how it was photographed or filmed?
A. We filmed the whole recovery.
MR. BURNS: At this time, Your Honor, the State would
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3673
ask permission of the Court to play the video tape to be
identified by this witness in the recovery of Mr. Keene.
THE COURT: Approach the bench. |
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
MR. BURNS: At this time State would offer 4 through ll.
MR. McCONNEL: Note our previous objection to 9, 10, and
11, Your Honor, as being gruesome. And our further objection to
the video tape as being gruesome, unnecessary and prejudicial.
THE COURT: All right. That will be overruled. Be
admitted.
(Whereupon, record at the bench complete, proceedings
resumed as follows:)
TEE COURT: I'll admonish those in the audience that
there is to be no response at the time the video is played.
(Whereupon, video technician showed tape to the jury
as indicated by the court as Mr. Burns continued with
Direct Examination of Mr. Jackson as follows) |
Q. 4r. Jackson, will you describe what the video tape is]
depicting at this time, please?
A. I'm showing the position of the body under the water.
(short pause) Here we're tying ropes around the body to help get
it out because the block was imbedded in the river bed. (short
pause) Here we are removing the body.
Q. Who is assisting you?
A. Sir?
Penny Moser, C.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
25
Who's assisting you?
A. Undersheriff R. D. Cottrell.
(Whereupon, video tape completed, technician removed
video equipment from courtroom and proceedings resumed
as follows)
C. Deputy Jackson, the last scene in the video tape what was
that actually reflecting?
A. The concrete block and the chain.
Q. Is that the actual-- in fact that was the recovery of
Charles Keene's body?
A. Yes.
Q. That is the way the chain was attached around his legs
-and the way the chain was run through the concrete block?
A. Yes.
Q. I ask you to direct your attention to State's Exhibit
Number 15 and 14 and 25, would you go one at a time, please and
tell the jury if you can identify these items?
A. State's Exhibit 25 is the belt that was on the body.
Q. What does the belt say?
A. Charles. State's Exhibit 15 is the concrete block that
was positioned between his legs.
Q. What is State's Exhibit Number 14?
A. It is the log chain that was wrapped around his legs and
through the concrete block.
Q. As to 14 and 15, the chain and the block, what happened to
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
“that examination?
them after you pulled Charles Keene's body out of the river?
A. I kept them in the sheriff's office in our evidence locker.
The chain went with the body to the lab.
q. Okay. These are all one and the same concrete block?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Mr. Jackson, when Charles Keene's body was pulled up on the
bank tell the jury and the Court how you assisted the medical
person there at the scene in examining that body as to the
determination of the wounds upon it?
A. We examined the throat wound and the stomach wound and two
bullet holes, one in the head and one in the side.
Q. You say "we", who was the person that you were assisting in
A. Dr. Crowell.
Q. So what you did was in assistance of him and under his
direction?
A. Yes, sir. 7
Q. What position did Dr. Crowell have for Grady County Oklahoma’
A. He is medical examiner.
Q. In relation to the wounds, describe them one at a time, the
wounds you saw on the body of Charles Keene. At this time I'd
like for you to use the photographs. Start with the wound in the -
head you've talked about, State's Exhibit Number ll. At this
point the Judge has ruled and you can turn this toward the jury
and use it to testify with.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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A. Yes, it is.
Q. State's Exhibit Number 10, describe that for the jury,
-please?
A. State's Exhibit 10 is the-- where the throat was slashed.
Q. And what else is depicted in that photograph?
A. Bullet hole in the side which was right there. (indicating)
A. Okay. State's Exhibit 1l is the head wound, bullet hole in
the back of the head.
Q. Can you point to where the bullet hole is, sir?
A. (indicating)
Q. As to the area next to the bullet hole, you can see a
large abraision or scalp wound and the absence of hair, is that
correct?
A. Yes, you can.
Q. Is that a true and accurate observation in the way that
Charles Keene's head appeared at the time that you saw him?
MR. BURNS: No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. McCONNEL: No questions.
TPE COURT: All right. You may be excused.
ME. BARESEL: Will our stipulation be read?
“THE COURT: At this time, ladies and gentlemen of the
jury, I'll admonish you that the parties have stipulated. And
a stipulation is an agreement that if Harvey Pratt was called to
testify that he would testify simply as follows. That he is an
agent with the State Bureau of Investigation. That he has prepared
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
tw
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the drawings marked as State's Exhibits 12 and 13, which are the
diagrams. And that these exhibits are true and accurate
cepictions of the crime scene in this case, and that the
information listed on those exhibits are accurate. I admonish
you that you are also to take this as true and accurate.
MR. BARESEL: Your Honor, at this time we'd also
move to introduce State's Exhibits 12 and 13.
THE COURT: Those will be admitted.
MR. BARESEL: Also move to introduce State's Exhibit
16, 17, 18, those being the photographs of Danny Mann's car,
testified to by Vicky Keene and Ann Reed.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
MR. McCONNEL: Excuse me, Your Honor, can we approach
the bench?
(Whereupon, the following record was made at the bench)
MR. McCONNEL: Okay. On that car are there three
photographs? I've just seen the one laying there. I just wanted
to make sure. Okay. Okay. |
THE COURT: 14 and 15?
™R. BARESEL: Yes, Your Honor, we'd offer those at
this time.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
MR. McCONNEL: Show my objection.
MR. BURNS: We would also offer the belt which is
State's Exhibit 25.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
tN
658
MR. McCONNEL: No objection.
THE COURT: Be admitted.
(Whereupon, record at the bench completed, proceedings
resumed as follows:
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. BURNS: Dr. Jordon.
DR. FRED JCRDON
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
Q. State your name, please?
A. Fred Jordon.
Q. Sir, what is your profession or occupation?
A. I'm a physician and forensic pathologist employed as the
chief medical examiner for the State of Cklahoma.
Q. Dr. Jordon, will you give the jury and court a brief _
summary of your resume of education and training in the field of
medicine?
A. Yes. I graduated from Tuft's University School of Medicine
in Boston in 1966 and followed that with a one year rotating
internship at the main medical center in Portland. Following that
I served a residency in anatomic pathology and clinical pathology
at the General Hospital in Louistown. Following that I served
two years as a fellow in the legal medicine in forensic pathology
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(408) 247-3671
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at the Medical College in Virginia in Richmond, finished that in
1972. In 1973 I was certified by the American Board of Pathology
in two specialty areas of anatomic pathology and forensic patholog
Dr. Jordon, do you hold any other office with the State?
For the State of Oklahoma you say?
Yes.
> OM Pf LA
Well, yes, I'm Chief Medical Examiner and the Clinical
Professor of Pathology at the Oklahoma Health Sciences Center.
Q. As Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Oklahoma, sir,
I assume you're licensed to practice medicine in our state?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Dr. Jordon, I would like to direct your attention back --
“in fact I'll start with a photograph. Dr. Jordon, I hand you three
photographs and if you would, refer to them by exhibit number.
They have been admitted by the Court so I'd ask you to relate to
them at this time.
A. All right. _
Q. I would ask you -- the body depicted as in the photograph
that I handed you, can you identify that body for the jury?
A. Yes, the body depicted in 10 and 11 was identified to me as
Charels Keene.
Q. Will you tell the jury when, if ever, you performed an
operation on that body?
A. Yes.
QO. When was that?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. The 19th of February.
Q. When you received the body at the State Medical Examiner's
Office in Oklahoma City how was it dressed or clothea?
A. When I received the body it was in a large black bag and the
clothing consisted of a pair of long underware, thermal underware,
jocket shorts, dark socks, dark trousers and a dark colored belt
bearing the name "Charles" cut into the back.
Q. I direct your attention towhat has been marked as Exhibit
25 and have you ever seen that before, doctor?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. I believe it is a belt that I took off the body of Charles
Keene
q. What did you do with that belt?
A. It was preserved, put in a large bag and released to Jerry
Peters.
Q. Doctor, would you start first with your examination, ~-
external examination of Charles Keene's body and relate that to
the jury?
A. Can I refer to these exhibits?
QO. Yes.
A. As you can tell from State's Exhibit 10, the body was
coated with mud and a brown material which is algae. It is
plant type material grown on the boay to quite a considerable
thickness as seen in State's Exhibit Number 11. This was a
Penny Moser, €.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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single gun shot wound on the back of the right head. And also
a gun wound to the lateral left chest. In addition thexe were
two incized wounds or cuts on the left side , two incized counds
or cuts on the chest and under the abdomen. There was an almost
-- well, let's see, seventeen cenitimeters. The seventeen
centimeter wound started in the neck and cut into the voice box
and went on the left side and gapped very wide. A lot of brusing
on the face and around neck area. And although there was no
apparent external iniury to the skin on the left leg there was a
broken shin bone, broken acorss on the left lower leg.
Q. His left leg was broken, throat was cut, cut down his chest,
shot in the left side of the thigh and shot in the back of the
head and he had an abraision or cut in the back of his head and
cut down his abdomen as well?
A. He also had multiple abraisions and bruises about his face
and body and particularly his face and about his arms.
Q. Doctor, can you tell the jury after you cleaned the body,
can you tell the jury what your medical opinion is in relation
to how old the wounds were or the bruises and abraisions first of
all?
A. The bruises and abraisions I think probably occured around
the time of death, around the time the gun shot wounds were
inflicted.
Q. Try to explain -- we are lay people and we're behind you a
step or two. Can you tell us how the bruises...
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(40S) 247-3671
24
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A. In a case like this it is more difficult to tell because
this body had been dead for sometime at the time that I saw it.
But the color of the bruises and their general appearance made
me feel that they were recent. I can't give you a time like
Quincy can. I can't say these are twenty-five minutes old. I
think they were all pretty recent. No way I can pin the time down
any closer than that.
Q. In the one photograph, Doctor, that shows the wound to the
back of Charles Keene's head, start with that gun wound, would
you tell us the trajectory of the bullet?
A. Yes, that bullet entered the back of the head on the right
side and it traveled forward and downward to some extent, and a
little to the left causing significant injury to the base of the
brain as it did and ended up somewhat fragmented.
Q. Doctor, I know it is hard to do and you can't stick that
through me, can you show us the angle of the bullet to his head?
(indicating)
A. Its also difficult to do on your head, Mr. Burns. I guess
I probably need to do it on this side. (indicating) Stricken
approximately here in the right back of the head and from the time
that it entered it went down or came toward the left, went down
and went toward here. So we are looking at a small angle, some-
thing that approximates the position of that yardstick.
Q. So the person holding the gun, the weapon, that person was
behind and above Charles Keene, is that right?
Penny Moser, C.5.H.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
same’ asm newe
24
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A. Well, the person was undoubtedly behind him, but you must
remember that I'm describing the direction standing from the
autopsy table. I can't really tell you what position the gun was
in except that after that bullet hit the body it did go in that
direction. There was no way I can tell you tke position the man
was in at the time he was shot.
Q. Is there anyway you could tell the jury the distance from
the muzzle to the head at the time the gun went off?
A. Within broad limits. I didn't see any evidence of gun
powder residue. So I would think that we would consider that as a
distance gun shot wound. It depends on the caliber of the gun
and the ammunition. But probably two, two anda half feet. In
ne
order to know for sure how far away it is the gun in question
with the ammunition being used would have to be fired and see how
far away it was from the target before it stopped leaving powder.
But, of course, this body had been dead for a while but I did
not see any evidence of any powder residue at all on that wound.
Q. Back to this body submerged in the water for some period
of time. That would have a bearing on the amount of residue to
be on it, isr't that correct?
A. When you fire a gun smoke comes out and burns the skin.
Now, smoke can be washed off, but most of it burns and powder
would impregnate into the skin and will not be washed off. So
from my examination I would say that that gun was probably far
enough away from the individual when it was discharged that it
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
N
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did not leave any appreciable powder at that time.
Q. Doctor, you have talked several times about this man
had been dead for quite some time. Can you give us any estimate
of time?
A. Rigormortis had come and gone, and that rigormortis would
set up in eighteen or fourteen hours and ir forty-eight hours
will be gone. If the information is correct this bocy was
recovered from cold water and that could have preserved it, main-
tained it for a long time.
Q. As to the cut on the back of the head depicted in the
photograph, will you relate to it and the length and depth of
the throat cuts to the jury?
A. I will look it up, I don't remember -- one is two centi-
meters and the other is about four centimeters.
Q. Doctor, as depicted in the photograph of the head wound
the photograph reflected a notable absence of the hair around
the wounds and the cuts, what could you tell us about how long
that hair had been gone?
A. I think I know but I wasn't there so I don't really know.
Q. As a medical opinion is that hair, those abraisions there
by the cuts, is that a slick ball spot where the man didn't have
hair?
A. Well, I think its a place where the hair came out.
Q. The place there where the hair came out, can you tell us
anvthing about how recent that was?
Penny Moser, C.S.h.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
A. No, not really because of the condition of the body.
Q. The gun shot wound to the left chest, describe that for us?
A. The internal examination showed that a gunshot wound had
entered the left chest and it passed through the left lung and
extended sort of backward, traveling to the right. It had
bruised the right lung. And exited the chest cavity but lodged
under the skin in the right part of the back. So, that traveled
backward and to the right. Of course, there was a large amount of
blood filling the left chest cavity from that wound that had
passed all the way through the left lung.
Q. I forgot to ask you a moment ago, whet part of Mr. Keene's
brain did the bullet stop in?
-
A. On the frontal part along the base of the brain, bottom
part of the brain.
Q. So it started in on the top and got through the brain
toward the bottom of it?
A. The gunshot wound to the head had come in the back and it
had gone forward and it caused -- it bent to the left and caused
extensive fracture to the skull and extensive lacerations and
destruction to the brain.
QO. Did either of the bullet wouncs there, the chest or head,
either of those exit the body?
A. No.
Q. The two bullets that you recovered, sir, what did you do
with them?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
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A. I put them in a small white jewel box, each of them, that
we use in our office to put bullets in.
Q. Dr. Jordon, I hand you what is marked as Exhibit 22 and 23,
can you identify these?
A. Yes, sir.
OQ. Tell us what they are?
A. State's Exhibit 22 consists of two parts. The first is
the top of a cardboard box into which we put bullets, like I say,
and fragments in. It is designated by the name of the deceased,
Keene, Charles R., our case number 8300397 and it is entitled
fragments, number two of gunshot wound number two, which is the
gunshot wound to the head. It has my signature and the date.
That is in my handwriting and then in addition there is some red
writing that is not mine. The other material consists of several
fragments of bullets an apparant jacket of bullet consistent
with that that I removed from the head of Mr. Keene. State
Exhibit 23 is also two parts. The first is a bullet box again,
with the name of the deceased, case number, and designation bullet
number one, my signature and the date. The second part is a large
metallic bullet.
Q. Dr. Jordon, what did you do with the sample that you removed
from the body of Charles Keene, blood sample?
A. I believe it was released at the same time to the 0.S.B.1.
to Jerry Peters on the 19th of February.
Q. What was the cause of death of Charles Keene?
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
A. Cause of death listed as gunshot wound to the head and
chest.
Q. As to the type of bruises and type of abraisions that he
had about his face and his arms, describe this for us if you
can in terms of the degree or severity of the beating that
inflicted that wound?
A. Well, you know, we have been over this before a hundred
times, Tony. Its difficult for me to tell you how much force.
I don't know what unit to use. But this mans arms and face
were badly bruised. I didn't find a broker nose or broken jaw or
anything but this is pretty significant injuries to the skin, you
know. I really don't know what to tell you as far as force goes.
-Quite significant, large area of bruising.
Q. Tell us about those types of bruising -- and I've been
through this a number of times, the phrase you use is blunt
force injuries, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You can't tell us if its a club, boot, fist, you weren't
there, is that correct?
A. Correct, I wasn't there and also there is no particular
pattern to them that would indicate, allow me to indicate what
type of instrument that inflicted them. They are blunt force
injuries.
Q. What was the depth of the man's throat cut?
A. Well, it was maybe half an inch or so, it went around the
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO,. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
24
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left side of the neck.
Q. If the wounds in the neck -- you say the gunshot wounds
were the cause of death?
A. Yes,sir.
Q. Either of these wounds, had they not received medical
attention would anv of them caused death?
A. Fither of the wounds, if they had not received medical
attention, either of the gunshot wounds?
Q. If the cutting of his throat and down his chest, if they
had not received medical attention would they have caused his
death?
A. Well, the wounds on the chest ard abdomen, no, I don't
think -- I mean, I'm assuming they didn't get-- that there was
not a terrible infection that set into them. Those were relatively
superficial. Irs a good question. I don't know how to answer
it right off the bat. I don't know. This neck wound was not
something that cut a major artery off to the brain and one -
certainly could have survived a wound like that.
Cc. What was Charles Keene's alcohol degree of blood alcohol
content when vou did the autopsy?
A. Well, the alcohol that we got on the blood I believe was
0.08.
G. 0.08 percent blood alcohol?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, Doctor, .05 up to .10 is fair driving by our law,
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
is that right?
A. Well, I know that wouldn't be driving under the influence.
q. That's where it starts, right?
A. .10?2 You're the lawyer. Now if vou're asking me
medically -- people, if they have a .05 they have some degree of
impairment from that, yes.
Q. The wound on Charles Keene, start with his broken leg, was
Charles Keene dead or alive when it was broken?
A. Alive.
Q. The wound on Charles Keene's abdomen and down his chest,
was he dead or alive when those were inflicted?
A. I believe he was alive.
Q. “as Charles Keene's throat cut when he was dead or alive?
A. I believe he was alive.
Can you tell the jury why?
> £0
Because there was some evidence of spreading of blood cells
into the tissue and you have to have blood pressure to do that,
that does not happen after death. |
MR. BURNS: Thank you, Doctor. No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. McConnel.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. McCONNEL:
Q. Doctor, the fact that the bullet didn't exit the head,
does that tell us anything about the distance from where the
gun was fired?
Penny Moser, €.5.f.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
A. No, sir, the bullet apparently fragmented as it went
through the bone and then it continued to break bones along the
bottom of the skull. It doesn't tell me anthing about the
distance from the target.
Q. The bullet in the chest, did it exit the body?
A. No, Sir.
Q. In regard to the hair being from the head, it's hard to
| Say with a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to when
that hair departed the head?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe from your testimony you stated that the
cut at the center of the throat severed no mejor arteries in the
“body?
A. That's correct.
Q. And your report shows the deceased to be a man 5'9"
weighing 165 pounds, is that correct?
A. Do you have a calculater with you? I measured him in .
centimeters. 165 pounds -- no, no, that's not right (skort pause)
1@€€ pounds.
Q. Okay. Do you know of any reason why the report by Pr.
crowell, which has been approved by you, shows these other
figures?
A. Not of my own knowledge,but I can make a guess. Do you
want me to?
A. No. Thank you.
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
} OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(4N8\ 2A7_2671
24
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Q. In closing, Doctor, an x-ray of the head and brain area, can
you tell anything about deterioration of the brain due to the use
of inhalents such as paint?
A. To the brain, no, sir. If I can maybe speak out of
turn. You wouldn't see that in the brain. You would look other
places for it in other organs.
Q. But for your purpose you don't include that as part of your
autopsy when you're not requested to do so?
A. Well, we take tissue in the autopsy -- heart, lung, liver.
Central nervous system in this man did not show any specific
pattern of substantial abuse.
Q. And this wasn't the primary reason for your autopsy?
A. No, sir, it was not.
MR. McCONNEL: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Burns.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURNS:
QO. Doctor, briefly what internal organ do you use for
substance abuse?
A. The type of thing defense counsel is suggesting we look at
the liver, and you would also look at the lung.
Q. Did you see anything in the examination of the lung or
liver of Charles Keene that reflected he was a heavy paint sniffer
or anything of that nature?
A. No,they were clear and healthy. The liver showed a few
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO. OKLAHOMA 73005
(405) 247-3671
Mg
“to form or express any opinion about this case until it is finally
scattered inflamations which were non-specific findings. It could
relate to an episode of paint sniffing, could relate to the taking
of aspirin or any number of medications. I have occasion to look
at a lot of liver abuse and the changes in the liver due to this,
and a lot more inflamation would be present than in this man.
Q. That was not the case with Charles Keene's liver, was it?
A. That was not the case with this liver, no, sir.
MR .BURNS: Nothing further.
MR. McCONNEL: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess now. Ladies and gentle-
ment of the jury, I'll admonish you not to converse among yourselve
or with anyone else in any subject connected with this trial. Or
submitted to you. If anyone attempts to speak to you, please
advise me.
(Whereupon, recess was taken and proceedings resumed
as follows)
THE COURT: Show the presence of the jury in the box"
the presence of the State, the Defendant and his attorney.
State ready?
MR. BARESEL: State's ready.
THE COURT: If you'll call your next witness.
- JAMES LOONEY
who, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,’
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows;
Penny Moser, C.5.R.
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
CADDO COUNTY COURTHOUSE
ANADARKO, OKLAHOMA 73005
(ANS) 247-2871
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0