MEMORANDUM
TO: File \
FROM: Neal WalkerM#
RE: Interview with Tom Riner (D) Louisville
DATE: January 26, 1988
On Tuesday Pat Delahanty and I met with Tom Riner, a Baptist
minister in Louisville and law school graduate. He represents
Louisville’s west end. Riner patiently and intently listened to
us explain the retarded and juvenile bills. Midway through our
discussion, he interrupted to tell us that, notwithstanding the
wisdom and popularity of a bill passed by the House, it would
likely die a quick death in the Senate. It would appear that he
has some hostility toward Senate leadership.
He had few comments concerning the MR bill but let us know quickly
that he had problems with the juvenile bill. Some juveniles need
to be aware that they could be exposed to the death penalty if
they kill, he opined. There was some general discussion about
deterrence and juveniles. At this point, Riner reflected on our
discussion thus far and told us that he agreed with the logic of
our position 100%, but that he had a problem with certain
“Biblical injunctives” and the death penalty. This gave Pat an
opportunity to speak of abolitionist Biblical themes.
We then spoke about the abuse bill and Riner wondered whether we
could broaden it to include dyslexic inmates. Apparently, he
worked with dyslexic prisoners at one point. At that point he
spoke passionately against “warehousing” prisoners and about the
failings of the modern prison system.
He showed us a photograph of himself with a "convicted drug
pusher” who lives in his home. Riner professed to be completely
open minded about alternate life styles maintaining that God loves
everyone. At various times, gays, criminals, etc. have lived in
his household.
I believe that Riner is leaning toward the MR and abuse bills. He
expressed deep ambivalence about the juvenile bill and noted that
he had already told Danny Seum of his reservations about the
bill. He promised us, though, that if he decided to vote against
it, he “"won’t be out beating the bushes.” This is a moral and
religious decision that he will have to make for himself.
Riner profusely thanked Pat for his perseverance in scheduling an
interview. I think he was genuinely impressed that anyone would
lobby so hard without a financial interest at stake. He went so
far as to tell Pat that he could be making a lot of money as a
lobbyist.
MEMORANDUM
TO: File
FROM: Neal Walker
RE: Interview with Jerry Lundergan
DATE: January 27, 1988
On January 21, 1988 Pat Delahanty and I interviewed Jerry
Lundergan (D) (Fayette). Abrupt and laconic, Lundergan expressed
support for the abuse and retardation bills. However, he is very
much in favor of executing youths.
The following week, Lundergan stopped Pat in the hall and
mentioned introducing a resolution in the House concerning Pat’s
unflagging crusade on behalf of Lindsey Scott.
RNW/tr
cc: Pat Delahanty
MEMORANDUM
TO: File
FROM: Kevin wenally ¥~
RE: Conversation with Larry Clark
DATE: January 13, 1988
On January 12, 1988, Pat Delahanty and I spoke with Representative
Larry Clark. After we outlined our proposals, Representative
Clark stated: "I’m not committing to anything but I generally feel
favorably inclined towards your proposals.” Representative Clark
asked us who the sponsors were. He was particularly impressed
with the fact that Dottie Priddy was sponsoring the retardation
bill.
When asked his views on the death penalty, Representative Clark
stated that he was in favor of the death penalty. When asked why
he supported the death penalty, he seemed unable or unwilling to
say. He did mention deterrence but seemed unfamiliar with that
rationale. He told us we were wise not to seek abolition and that
we had chosen the correct strategy. I would rate Representative
Larry Clark as a possible favorable vote on at least one or more
proposals.
KMM/tr
cc: Pat Delahanty
MEMORANDUM
TO: File
FROM: Neal walker WY
RE: Interview with Walter Blevins
DATE: January 27, 1988
On January 21, 1988 Pat Delahanty and I interviewed Walter Blevins
(D) (Lawrence, Lewis, Morgan, Rowan). Blevins expressed support
for the death penalty only in the case of contract killings. Even
then, he has concerns over the state being involved in the killing
of a citizen. He told us that he could support all three bills.
There was some interesting discussion concerning the abuse bill.
Apparently, he has read somewhere that 30% of all prison inmates
were “gifted children.” I expressed surprise at this and promised
to look into it.
Blevins’ ambihalence about the death penalty even in the case of
contract killers certainly suggests that he isapotential abolition
vote.
RNW/tr
cc: Pat Delahanty
MEMORANDUM
TO: File
FROM: Neal Walker yw
: Interview with Rocky Adkins
DATE: January 27, 1988
On January 21, 1988, Pat Delahanty and I interviewed Rocky Adkins
(D) (Boyd, Elliott, Lawrence) a young (29) NRA member and former
Morehead State basketball player. He was stern and unyielding in
his support for the death penalty. He is unsupportive of any of
our three bills and is extremely unlikely to be of any help in the
future.
RNW/tr
cc: Pat Delahanty
February 7, 1988
Re: DAVID WILLIAMS
In a hallway conversation with David Williams, who has
agreed on several occasions to meet and we simply kept
missing each other, he stated that he favors the juvenile
and MR bills. He is undecided on HB 485, but willing to
look at it and meet with us again. I did not pursue his
attitude on the death penalty, since we can do that when we
talk later. He did allow that in his area of the state,
there are few capital situations and the prosecutors are
reluctant to pursue them, since they themselves lack the
experience needed to prosecute this sort of crime.
Until he tells us differently, I suspect Williams is not
deeply committed to capital punishment.
MEMORANDUM
TO: File
FROM: Kevin menatly V-
RE: Conversation with J. Dorsey Ridley
DATE: February 8, 1988
On February 4, 1988, Oleh Tustaniwsky and I interviewed Rep. J.
Dorsey Ridley. We had missed the earlier appointment and I just
simply asked to see him. When we got there, he didn’t know who we
were. He later told us that when we said we were with the
Kentucky Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, he was sorry to
have agreed to talk to us. However, at the end he said he was glad
we had talked.
Rep. Ridley is a bright, honest freshman legislator. He had a lot
of questions for us. He told us he honestly didn’t know what he
thought about the death penalty. A constituent stopped him on the
street and asked him his position. Rep. Ridley stated: "I really
don’t know.” Without a doubt, he is a_ potential abolitionist
vote. He seemed knowledgable about some cases, referring to a
Florida case where a condemned inmate was. cleared based on the
death bed confession of the widow of the victim. He may have been
referring to Willie Darden although we were talking about Jerome
Boden.
After a long discussion, Rep. Ridley indicated that he was
probably leaning towards all three of our proposals.
KMM/tr
cc: Pat Delahanty
Oleh Tustaniwsky
MEMORANDUM
TO: File
FROM: Kevin Seiten
RE: Conversation with Greg Stumbo
DATE: December 2, 1987
On November 12, 1987, Pat Delahanty, Janet Geurin and I_ met with
Greg Stumbo, the democratic ‘maj6rity floor” “leader: “~Greg"and I~
went to law school together and so he was very cordial. Greg
stated that he is a son of a former prosecutor (presently District
Court Judge Harold Stumbo) and a supporter of the death penalty.
However, he said he’s not a member of "Hitler’s Youth.” He stated
that he tended to be conservative on law and order issues but had
honestly never given the death penalty very much thought and had
no strong feelings either way.
Like Senator Friend, Stumbo was very circumspect about commenting
on our particular proposals. He kept saying "this is very
interesting,” but he never indicated how he would vote or felt, as
far as I could tell.
Greg implied that leadership was not likely to squash any attempt
at legislation in the area of capital punishment. He claimed, as
a general rule, the leadership did not squash bills under speaker
Blandford’s regeme and he saw no reason why leadership would
attempt to do so regarding this particular topic. My sense was
that these assurances were reliable.
KMM/tr
cc: Pat Delahanty
MEMORANDUM
TO: File
FROM: Neal Walker NW
RE: Conversation with Walter P. “Jody” Richards
DATE: October 26, 1987
On October 8, 1987, Pat Delahanty and I spoke with Rep. Walter P.
“Jody” Richards, majority caucus chair and 12 year veteran of the
General Assembly, at his book distributing company in Bowling
Green. The meeting was relaxed and casual. After some small
talk, Pat began outlining the juvenile proposal. After listening
for a minute or so, Richards interupted Pat by announcing he had
“no problems with that.” He was quite emphatic about it. At one
point there was an extended discussion about the Todd Ice case and
the availability of life w/o 25 for juveniles. Further
digressing, Richards complained about the new juvenile code and
the Hopkinsville juvenile who could not be prosecuted for murder
for lack of a prior felony conviction.
Pat and I both presented the mentally retarded proposal and I
spoke about Jerome Bowden’s case at length. My impression,
although I don’t have a distinct recollection of it now, was that
he would support this proposal as well. I remember him grimacing
as I spoke about the Bowden case.
While supportive of the first two proposals, he was noticably
non-committal on the child abuse mitigating factor proposal. I’m
not sure that he understood it.
He told us that we would be able to get sponsors for the bills but
we might have to shop around for a_ while. At some point during
the conversation he told us that he was strong supporter of the
death penalty. This gave us an opportunity to talk about lack of
deterrence, execution of innocents, etc. He heard all of this but
I think it was difficult for him to accept. At one point, he
announced that he was so opposed to abortion that it was
“unbelievable.” He was having some obvious difficulty in
reconciling support for the death penalty and opposition to
abortion. He then spoke about the late night legislative session
when the death penalty statute was passed and how strange it all
was. He identified Beshear and a woman whose name I cannot
presently remember as keeping things "tied up” into the night.
He expressed considerable interest in attitudes of coalition
members on the death penalty. Are we opposed to it in all cases,
even of serial killers like Ted Bundy? We explained how there
were probably people in the coalition who were not opposed to the
death penalty in every case but were convinced that it could never
be applied fairly and consistently. Finally, he expressed interest
on our efforts at establishing a coalition chapter in Bowling
Green. He instantly recognized Danny Axsom’s name when Pat
mentioned it. We told him that 80 people had responded to Danny’s
overtures. He was quite skeptical about many people showing up
for the meeting we had planned for later that night. "You
couldn’t get that many out even if you were giving away a free
dinner.”
After the meeting, Richards gave us a guided tour of his book
warehouse and even gave us a recently published book about the
death penalty.
RNW/tr
cc: Pat Delahanty
MLS
MEMORANDUM
TO: Kevin McNally x
FROM: Oleh Tustaniwsky
RE: Supplement to “Conversation With J. Dorsey Ridley”
DATE: February 10, 1988
Representative Ridley mentioned that he was a legislative aide
when the Kentucky House of Representatives voted to abolish the
death penalty in the Sixties. He knows that Governor Breathitt was
against the death penalty. He was aware that no one had been
executed since 1962. He also brought up the economic inequality of
the death penalty. He mentioned that he would have the assets to
defend himself in a capital case, while many people wouldn’t.
Representative Ridley mentioned that he had sat in the electric
chair. He called Danny Seum a liberal. He mentioned that there are
juveniles who are “some tough nuts.” He asked about standards in
the mental retardation bill. There was an Al Gore button over his
desk.
cc: Pat Delahanty
Donna Boyce
Neal Walker
MEMORANDUM
Kevin McNally
Donna Boyce db
RE: Meeting with Tom Burcn
DATE: January 5, 1988
Pat Delahanty ana | met this morning with Tom Buren,
representative from Louisville. Burcn described himself as a
fiberal when it comes to people or social issues. He thinks
conservatives are radical. He voted for death penalty legislation
twice before but described to us how his nand shook the last time
ne voted for it. He supports the death penaity for serial
murderers and mass murderers and said, smiling all tne wnilte, ne‘da
tike to pull the switcn for Bundy or Gacy.
He said he thougnt he could support our three proposals. He
thougnt all juvenites were currently excluded from being subject
to tne death penaity. He expressed concern that the "mentally
deranged," tike Ted Bundy, could escape execution through our
mental retardation proposal. He seemed somewnat confused about the
abuse mitigator and mentioned the R. Gene Simmons case--the guy
who physically abused nis family, sexuality abused nis daugnter and
recently killed 16 people. However, ne also noted that ne had been
subject to abuse when he was young and knew what kind of scars it
could leave. He iS chairperson of a subcommittee on child abuse
ang indicated that that had made nim aware of what a propiem child
abuse is.
Burch told us ne nad fost the election before last because of Nis
support for a social issue. He obviousty will not be out front on
any of our proposals but | think if ne can get fost in the crowd,
nevll vote for them.
OLB
cc: Pat Delananty
2/5/88
Re: BILL LEAR
MacGhee Isaacs and Pat met with Bill Lear on 2/2/88.
Lear said he is not opposed to the death penalty.
He is very cordial in a meeting. He is leaning for the
juvenile bill, but asked how many states were at
that age limit. I said, incorrectly, that 3/4 were.
I looked this up later and the next day stopped him in
the cafeteria and made the correction, which he seemed
to appreciate.
He favors the bill for the mentally*¢tarded
that he works with the Bluegrass ARC.
and mentioned
He really opposes the mitigating abuse bill; I (Pat)
cannot remember the exact reason, but it was clear he
was not with us on this one. Maybe MacGhee can recall
if Lear was specific about this issue.
(Please return this page to K.C.A.D.P., 425 Muhammad Ali Blvd., Suite 230,
Louisville, KY 0202).
1. Do you find yourself in accord with Presbyterian teaching on the death
penalty (as stated in the attached letter)? If not, would you please explain
your own position.
No, © do wt support she Presbyterian church's
postin _ support our cowrent statutes rey axrolims
the death penalty -
2. Would you be willing to sponsor 2 bill in the appropriate committee process
of the state legislature to emend capital punishment law in a moderating
manner (for example, by prohibiting the application of the death penalty to
persons below 18 years of age at the time of the crime; or, by strengthening
the significance of mitigating circumstance; etc.)? KCADP can provide the
correct legal formlas for such legislation if that is desired.
No
3. Would you be willing to sponsor legislation for abolition of the death
penalty in Kentucky?
No
le Will you converse further on these (or related) corcerns by appointment with
representatives of KCADP? (If affirmative, please supply the phone
number through which an appointment can be made.)
Yes
Phone: 606 - 23/- 3000
Commonfrealth of Kentucky
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
BILL LEAR 732 Lakeshore Drive
STATE REPRESENTATIVE Lexington, Kentucky 40502
‘79th Legisiative District Home: (606) 268-4852
Fayette County (Office: (606) 231-3056
t FRANKFORT, KENTUCKY 40601
MESSAGE LINE 1-800-372-7181
February 3, 1988
Neal Walker
89 Hampton Court doo
Lexington, KY 40514
Dear Neal:
I am writing in response to your recent letter regarding
the death penalty. I appreciate you taking the time to express
your concerns and opinions to me because I have, as yet, come
to no final conclusion as to whether I will support the proposed
changes in our capitai punishment law. Of the three items men-
tioned in your letter, I am most sympathetic with regard to the
execution of retarded persons. I serve on the boards of both
the BGARC_and the Child Development Center of the Bluegrass.
As such, I am acutely aware of the need for sensitivity to the
problem of mental retardation in our society. If forced to cast
my vote today, I would therefore probably support your proposal.
With regard to the execution of minors, I share your
concern that a nation has no business "killing its children",
but from my own experience as a prosecutor I must tell you that
I have encountered a number of minors who were fully mature in
all but chronological age and who were completely capable of
appreciating the nature and consequences of their acts. ‘It may
well be that we need to impose greater safeguards to insure that
a minor is executed only in the most extraordinary of circumstances
and only after both the judge and jury has given every considera-
tion to the offender's age.
With regard to the problem of child abuse and future
criminal violence, I cannot support your position. Juries are
currently allowed to consider a wide range of circumstances,
totally unrelated to the commission of the particular capital
offense in determining whether to impose the death penalty.
These circumstances include the family history of the defendant.
fo Fat Dele hanty
et MLS,6A
Neal Walker
February 3, 1988
Page Two
This is typically done because, in capital cases, courts (and
generally prosecutors) want to give the defendant every benefit
of the doubt in order not to put reversable error into capital
offense convictions which, as you know, receive great scrutiny
on appeal. For this reason, I think it unnecessary to add the
instruction you request.
I hope this gives you some idea where I stand on your
proposals. Thank you again for taking the time to express your
concerns and opinions to me.
Sincerely,
Bill Lear
BL/klic
3510/55
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