So, an interview with Barbara Chestnut in Nevada City on March 17, 2006 and the subject
is Ernest Angel.
So, I was thinking we would start by asking you what is your own specialty and what has
been your work?
My academic background is in social work.
I have a master's degree in social work from Columbia University and my cycle and
limited training is from the National, it's called MPAP or National Psychological Association
for Psychonalysis and I completed my certificate in psychoanalysis in a six year period.
Ernest was one of my teachers.
All in New York City?
All in New York City, yeah.
And it was the first late psychoanalytic institute in this country and it was founded
by a number of colleagues of Ernest, I believe Ernest was one of the founding members because
it actually...
What years are we talking about?
Okay.
Theodore Reich was the real founder, I mean the initial person that got the thing started
but there were other people like Ernest who worked with him and helped develop it and
I believe it was in the late 40s, I'm not positive.
That could have been, that's quite early.
Yes.
As sort of an MBT in question, Theodore Reich, what can you say about him in this connection?
What?
The connection was the founding of the incident.
Well, he was also an immigrant.
Yeah, very much.
You know that?
Yeah.
And he was a psychologist.
He came, I think he came from, you know, he fled from Hitler.
Yeah, well, I was, I was, I was in the other zone.
And he was, because he was a psychologist and not a psychiatrist.
In other words, he didn't have an MD.
The American Psychiatric Association and the American Psycholytic Association did not recognize
him as a psychoanalyst.
Oh, I see.
So that he started his own institute, which was NPP, which was the first lay institute,
lay meaning non-medical.
Oh, I see.
Aha.
So anyone with a master's degree in, any one of the number of different disciplines counseling
cycle in social work and psychology, even some fields that were less related could qualify.
So how long was theater like involved with the institute?
As far as I know, until his death, and I don't, I know I never met him.
And I started my training in 1975, I believe.
So it would have been probably sometime in the 1960s, as far as I'm just giving you very
rough.
No, but it did.
It did.
It gives the frame.
Yeah, yeah.
And if I come across the bulletin for NPP, it may have some more specific dates.
But anyway, so he was, so was he to do, to repeat it, my question, I guess, was he
that actually were found?
Yes.
Theater like.
And, yeah.
And Ernest and others, I believe, some of the founding members, and then they formed
in New York's Freudian society, which is kind of an offshore student, NPP, and various
other Iphtar was another psychoanalyst institute that came out of NPP.
Iphtar.
Iphtar.
Iphtar.
I don't know if it's still in existence, but it was very, um, I think, I think, I think,
with very much a Freudian emphasis, a lot of the same people who were in Iphtar were
also in the, the Freudian society.
And also at NPP, but NPP was more eclectic because it accepted people from, it had a tendency
to set people for more diverse backgrounds.
Some were artists, you know, dance therapists, all therapists.
Oh, yeah.
So that it meant more eclectic.
Yes, like what other people were significant with this institute?
With NPP?
Yeah, I mean, besides, I feel like as a founder and then anyone else that sticks in your mind,
um, let's see.
Did Angel join it also quite early?
Yes.
Uh-huh.
So, in what you want?
Yeah.
I don't know when, Ernst Angel, Ernst his PhD, but my understanding is that he earned it
in this country.
Yeah, that's right.
That is correct.
Once he came to New York, I think.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
And so it would have been after that.
You know that he started as a poet, as an expressionist poet, and the first publication
is a volume of an ecstatic expressionist poetry.
And that's something.
Yeah.
I think we should talk about eclectic.
He was so, his interest was so diverse.
I must, yeah.
But they're getting back to some other names along with the other, right?
Angel.
And you want to ask that comes to your mind, of course.
From that period?
Uh-huh.
Well, Daniel Reilsberg, these were the analysts who were older when I was in training.
Yeah, okay.
Um, let's see.
Oh, I'd have to probably look at it.
Yeah, okay.
But I'll just see a few that will come to your mind.
All right.
And, uh, yeah.
So, uh, all right.
Let's, um, well, now let's get back to Angel once more.
What was his contribution to the, to the NPMP?
Okay.
He was, um, a training analyst.
He was a supervisor or a training analyst supervisor.
In other words, he conducted the analysis of candidates as well as supervision of candidates
work with their own analytic patients.
So I knew him as a supervisor.
He also taught courses.
I had him as a teacher.
Uh-huh.
He taught, um, basic, beginning Freudian courses, as I recall.
He was very, um, very good teacher.
Because he, he covered, he covered all the fundamentals and the essentials of the theory.
And he did it in a very interesting way.
Through the case studies.
And he, well, I was going to say, how did you proceed with case studies?
Yes.
And he, he got us to work very hard and, uh, had us working in, in small groups, kind of
outside of classroom time, kind of helping each other.
Because, um, his, his take home exam was amazingly, um, detailed and very, um, challenging.
So, um, he didn't mind if we went, if we got together and kind of helped each other out.
Which I thought was really nice.
It's a way of learning from each other as well as, um, you don't have to have any more
of those exams.
I, I'm sure I do.
All of that would be interesting to see.
I'm sure I still have them.
Um, in, there's a few boxes that I haven't gone through.
Recently moved.
I didn't get to go through every single one.
But they were given insights into his work.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
I'm sure I have that his, um, and, yeah, sort of, what, say, again, what did he stress, sort
of, in his courses?
The, um, the classical theory of segment for right.
In particular.
Um, the, the earlier, um, the, um, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the
earlier works of Freud, I remember him emphasizing, but of course that may have just been the
course that I was taking.
Um, you know, for, as you can only say things that you, that you have experienced, you
have developed.
His work beginning in the 1890s and into the 1900s, up to maybe 19, 10, 19, 11, uh, which
was when he laid down the basic framework of his theory.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What, I guess I got an extra like this, it asks, is, um, is he saying, asking the same thing
again?
But what did, uh, angels stress?
Um, he stressed the importance like, and, you know, kind of extrapolate.
Yeah.
Because I had it as a supervisor too.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Um, I think, okay, first of all, I would say Ernest was, uh, eminently, a very humane
person, very, um, very kind and very, um, thoughtful about individuals as well as about
society as well as about the world.
Um, you know, but it started, you know, with his relationships and his interest in his
patients and his students and his analysis.
People were devoted to him.
Those, those, those who were, were, I don't think he had any enemies at all.
I was certainly one of his devotees.
Uh-huh.
Um, I think I must have considered him kind of a mentor because we also worked together
in the UCP, the Union of Concerned Cyclonealists and Cyclotherapists.
This organization began in the early 80s.
I believe 82, and Ernest was the founding, the founder and the first president.
And I joined the board, I guess, after maybe a year or so.
Yeah, but let's give that to the future.
Let's give that to the future.
It's a supervision.
Yeah.
So you started by saying that he was, and then he came across that very well, that he was
a humane.
There he means that he was not what?
That he was not too didactic?
Uh, he was, his work, his, his theoretical, um, perspective was always grounded in the
clinical work itself in the case under discussion.
Oh, yeah.
But there was a clinical basis, you know, cyclonealists being the study of one.
Yeah.
It's very hard to generalize, of course, the theory can be generalized, but he would
always refer it back to the way that patients presented clinically was the ultimate way
in which you understood them and that you knew how to work with them.
So he, um, he talked about technique too, you know, that technique can be modified and adapted
to, I don't know if you use the word ego strengths, but, you know, the, the needs of the patient,
the, the, the variability to, um, to develop inside.
So he worked with some patients who were not what you'd call classical cyclonealitic patients
in the sense that, for a describing that we're just neurotic and, um, he worked with patients
who had some borderline features and, um, borderline features.
Um, let's see, it sounds like how you define, I think for itself, may have used the term
borderline and at that point it might have referred more to somewhere between neurosis and
psychosis, but the way that it became defined during the time of my training started with
auto-current bird and then, uh, with, um, co-hut.
Oh, I know, I know.
I went to a conference with him.
Uh-oh.
Uh-oh.
In, um, in Canada, um, this was wonderful.
It was right near the end of his life.
But these theories were coming to the fore when I was in my training.
So, and Ernest stayed abreast of them.
He was avant garde in, in whatever he did.
Um, so he, he brought in new theories, but it was always, always based on what the clinical
observation was.
How, how did he, he keep himself abreast by a lot of reading, by going to conferences,
both, or more, or more than the other?
He was always at meetings and conferences.
You know, he would, every event that MPAT held, graduations, even if, you know, I don't
know if he knew all the graduates, but he was always there.
He and, and Evelyn, his wife would go.
Uh-oh.
Um, he had, I think he had a wide range of friends and acquaintances.
I remember going to dinner parties at their house and there'd be people from various disciplines
there, some Freudians, some not.
So he was not, um, he wasn't, um, kind of rigidly orthodox.
Over the, yeah, that comes across, yeah.
Yeah.
And he was not very, um, sound theoretically very.
Did he ever, uh, after all that you've censorified, uh, did he ever speak to you or do you know
where he himself got his psych or another training?
Because as far as I know, he started as an expressiveness poet.
Yes.
Well, I believe it was in the Reich Institute.
I believe.
Unless he was grandfathered in and then they just took seminars because I don't know what
the Reich Institute, the, the Reich, um, MPAP was like when it first started because there
wasn't a training institute for non medical psychoanalysts.
So I imagine they had trainings there and that some of the founding members of the beginning,
members in the beginning probably, um, set up those trainings and maybe trained each
other and theater Reich would have been one of the main teachers I would imagine.
Um, and you, you, you're, I guess you, you are concluding that, uh, at the institute,
after its founding is where he may have been an exposed to a novel's psychoanalysts.
Yes.
But I would imagine that even before then because he did get his PhD in psychology and,
I mean, that's usually when people are first exposed to, um, psychological theories as well
as psychoanalyst theories.
Um, and because he had such a big heart, you know, for, for people and I, and cared so much, um,
my sense is that he chose psychoanalysis, uh, as a specialization so that he could help
individuals on a deeper level, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and, and students as well, you know,
and the people that he, how large were his groups or his classes?
They were quite large because they were the beginning classes that I took at the institute.
So they might be 20, something like that.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And they would meet, um, trying to think probably at MPAP, where there was a brown, a brown
star townhouse on West 13th Street and, uh, West 13th.
Yes.
And we, um, had different classrooms of different sizes there.
Um, I'm trying to remember.
I don't think no, it didn't meet in Ernest's apartment.
Or did not?
We did not.
He didn't have classes there, even though he had other meetings and other social events there.
So how did the sequence of classes start?
So you started at the institute with a class by an astounding.
Well, uh, that was one of the beginning courses, like, um, introductory,
an introduction to psychoanalytic.
Yeah.
And how did it go on?
What did, what did you take, continue to take?
Yes.
What did others do?
The, do them?
Well, it was a, uh, a really intensive curriculum.
And, um, it didn't have any time limitation on it.
So some students could start off taking one class and then another class,
another semester and it might take them 10 years to get through the institute,
but that's how they wanted to do it.
Um, and then, so certain subject,
subject, subject, subject, to be covered.
Yes.
So, yeah, the theory is a very different aspects of theory, practice, um, techniques.
So what were the, uh, this is an introductory class?
What were, uh, other classes you were taking from him?
From Ernest.
Um, I'm trying to remember, well, I think I had two from him.
One certainly was the, the introductory course for the incoming students.
And the other, I might have been a similar theory, theoretical course,
but on a higher level, in which, um, in which,
for it's perhaps it's his later theories were, were explored.
Um, that's, I guess, memory of it is that he, he was very, very knowledgeable
of Freud.
I never, I don't think I got, I don't know if he taught, um,
the Sigmund Freud of, of, um, the, uh, the 1920s and the 1930s, you know,
when Freud's, uh, theories, um, began to shift into more, um,
fanatostere, and, uh, but I think that he, yeah, I think that Ernest,
as I recall, focused more on, um, the beginning, uh, fundamental aspects of Freud's theory.
I, I have not seen, and that's why I'm asking, is there a bibliography of his writings?
I know there are some of his publications here.
I think I have a few other things, oh, yeah, we're going to ask you about the book
that he was made on existentialist.
Yes, he's existentialist, he was an entrepreneur.
Uh, okay, let's, uh, yeah, do you know the native bibliography of his publications?
No.
No, I don't.
What the institute might, maybe my, might have something like that.
Yeah, I don't think we have, really a good, uh,
missing of his publications.
Right.
Were most of his things published, um, not necessarily.
I think some of them were some weren't.
There are some of the papers that I've given you had been published.
Uh-huh.
And others, I don't know whether what we're seeing is just the early drafts and that
they were later published.
Um, and some of them are more like literature, you know, but his experiences in concentration
can't, oh, I see, in that sense, in that sense, they're more, um, personal.
Uh-huh.
But those would be, uh, yeah, also later, of course, yeah.
Uh, well, I don't know when he wrote them, but possibly later.
Oh, all right.
Yes, he was, he was, he was eclectic so that he maintained, um, a lively interest in
the arts and, um, what's going on in the world as well as, yeah, uh, yeah.
Since I mentioned this book that I also have on my show on existentialist.
Yes.
Uh-huh.
How did that fit into his teaching or his studies or his worldview?
He did not teach existential psychology.
And our institute, NPP, did not, I believe, have any courses in the existential point
of view.
So that would have been prior to his psychoanalytic training and prior to, oh, I see.
Yeah.
And I believe it was, unless, because it didn't integrate into the way that he, you know,
there were some, it's some, uh, existential, um, uh, analysts and psychologists and people
who identify themselves that way.
Everyone knew that he had written that book and he was, uh, oh, I didn't realize that this
was just preceded some of this other work.
I believe so.
The works that I've shown you and how did he, he wrote this or put this together together
with Rolomate, right?
I believe so, yes.
The how did he come to know him?
Hmm.
I don't know.
Uh-huh.
But he was, he was close to him.
Uh-huh.
And I also supported the UCP, the Union of Concerned Cyclists and Psychotherapists.
In what sense support?
Well, financially.
Um, he was a member, I believe.
And, uh, uh, they corresponded, I think.
Although Rolomate was not, I don't think he was in the year at the time.
No, no, he wasn't.
Yeah.
Oh, I see.
So that's if they didn't start one part of the sequence.
Well, what was the, what were the fees or the charges of the institute?
Oh, um, they were, um, modest.
I can't say any more than that because it's been quite a number of years for me.
Uh-huh.
But it wasn't, um, extraordinary, expensive at all.
The best, the highest expense for someone going through a cyclone I trained would have
been the fee that that person pays to their analyst.
That was the minimum requirement of frequency was three times a week for a, uh, or a
cyclone analysis.
And some analysts saw their patients four times a week and others maybe five times a
week.
Or, with whom did you do your analysis?
My analysis was with Mark Sylvain.
Oh, Sylvain, yeah.
Uh-huh.
He is at the New York Trading Society.
Uh-huh.
And, um, he, he wasn't an MPAP member, but MPAP accepted him as my analyst because he
was known.
Yeah.
You did not have any such sessions with, uh, understandable.
Uh, no.
I didn't have any such sessions with Ernestian.
I did have supervisory sessions.
He, he did one of my, um, my training analyses.
We, we supervised a patient.
Uh, he supervised basically my work with a patient for about a year's period.
Oh, yeah.
What was this, since it is out of my field?
What is, what is the nature of the supervision?
Okay.
Would be weekly sessions and, um, with you or with the patient?
With me.
And I, and I was seeing the patient.
And, um, I would present the material pretty much verbatim as I could recall it from
session and any questions that I have.
So usually it would start out with what, you know, what was going on with the patient
since last week, what were the questions and, um, concerns, whatever.
And then, and then Ernest would, he would talk.
He would, um, you know, he would relate to the questions and to, to me and to what my
questions were about my work.
He was always very positive, very supportive, huh?
He was always never, ever critical.
In fact, he was so, um, amazingly kind.
I don't think I realized how kind he was until one day when I was, I had rushed to get
to my supervised recession with him.
I was working as a social worker at, uh, uh, a hospital in New York City at that time.
And was held up after work and so it was late for Ernest and I came in apologized and,
so I'm so sorry.
And I was very stressed out and he's, he offered me milk and cookies.
I just couldn't believe it.
He just, he just did, you know, he's a sweet man.
Uh-huh.
Oh, okay.
But as in his comments to you, did he proceed according to some kind of a system that he
was using and efficient for work?
What kind of reactions were those generally speaking?
He was, um, I always had the sense that he appreciated the, um, the human struggles and the
humanity of the patient and he had a kind of a empathic response to, um, perhaps situated
for, I remember one situation, one of my patients, the one that, that he was supervising me
on.
She'd had some problems with a nephew of hers, a little two year old or three year old who
had disrupted, um, maybe her wedding or some, some found formal occasion and she was very
upset by that because it was, that was this very important occasion to her.
And, um, I think after Ernest heard the whole thing, he put it in perspective and he did
in such a, um, warm, um, supportive way that it just helped me to see, um, how another
way of looking at it, he said, he, he, uh, he referred to that little two year old as,
yeah, ah, like it is, he used a little word like, um, a little, uh, a little, uh,
personality or some, some word like that, which implied that he was just not doing anything
intentional and was just doing what two year olds do.
You know, in other words, that helped me to, to disengage myself, uh, a bit from my patients,
um, her reaction, which was, you know, she was terribly, um, wounded or felt terribly
wronged by a two year old and I was, um, kind of in a, a bind about how to help her through
this.
But it sort of, it lightened my, um, my attitude and my feelings about what happened when
I, when I saw through angel-sized, what, that, that little, the two year old type and
what any two year old type might do, you know, and, um, so that, that might have been an
important, and I think it was, issued for, for my patients to be able to detach somewhat
too.
And I was able to help her, um, not take it personally.
It seems like it was almost a rational approach on this part.
Irrational?
Irrational?
No.
Irrational?
Uh-huh.
Yes.
Common sense, emotional approach.
Yes.
But, but also the way that he talked about it, it was warm.
He smiled when he talked about that little type that he's kind of like he could picture
it.
And, um, he wasn't, um, judging or he wasn't, you know, he wasn't saying what he did was
good or bad or anything, but he just kind of put it all in perspective.
Yeah, explained in a sense more than anything.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
How did he, uh, survive financially?
My understanding is, uh, through being a psychoanalyst, I don't know whether he sold any
of his writings, I don't know.
But, probably not.
So, did, uh, did the Institute pay him also for his teaching?
Yes.
As well as, uh, he was paid, of course, as a supervisor, but primarily by his patients
and his supervisees.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
That's the way most analysts survived in those days.
I don't know.
No, no.
I don't know.
I kind of assumed that it was once I would confirm that scene.
But, uh, we're very fair.
He was not an analyst who, uh, he did not charge exorbitant fees.
He was not that kind of guy.
You just know that he was, he was interested in his patients and his students, their situations.
So I remember one time, Ernest, I had a, uh, I don't know if it was a disagreement, but
that we saw, I was kind of swayed by, you know,
this patient of mine, her kind of extreme reaction.
You know, and there was, there wouldn't have been anyone at that wedding.
I think it was a wedding ceremony.
Who would have thought any less of her because her two-year-old nephew, you know, disrupted the service?
I mean, they would have understood, you know, that, you know, that it was not her fault and it wasn't, you know.
It was unfortunate, maybe, and it was taking care of.
It wasn't.
But I think what happened was, I think he helped me to see that my patient was kind of regressing to almost a two-year-old level too.
That she was kind of having a tantrum about it.
Oh, you know, I see.
Yeah.
That's my memory of it.
What is there, did he prefer any kind of patients or, it is in that sense, specialized?
Maybe there's a wrong way of asking your question, but was he, it's been taken essentially by two people or children or...
As far as I know, he didn't work with children or even adolescents, he didn't specialize in that.
He worked with adults and I think he preferred...
I, I, I'm just guessing this because most of his patients were students, you know, in training or students who had been in training,
people who had been in training who were no longer students but continued to work with him.
I know that they had some patients that I knew that it worked with him for many, many years.
And so...
What, what, could you describe?
But what was the long, many-year continuation of...
Well, it might have been, including the training period, maybe ten years, maybe eleven or twelve years, a very long period of time,
which was...
But the supervision stopped.
Oh, the supervision stopped?
Yeah, but these were...
These were students who were undergoing a psychoanalysis with him.
Uh-huh.
That would have gone on.
There was no limit to the number of sessions that you had to have, or there was no maximum, there was no...
They didn't tell you that you had to stop it.
Yeah, but still, then people stopped after one.
Well, yes.
Yeah, some earlier than others, but it isn't necessarily good or bad
to have a long psychoanalysis.
But if that's what happens, if that's what is chosen or if that's what occurs, then it's okay.
He didn't have...
He wasn't impatient with the process.
You know, that it has to be, you know, within a certain period of time.
Or...
No.
Oh, okay.
Let's say...
Um...
I already asked you about some people that he worked with and you mentioned about the two or three names.
And the same question again perhaps, some of the other questions may...
Refresh your memory with whom besides May, and what did you say, uh,
cold food and what was at the beginning, it was rake, and then auto corn work?
Auto-curneberg?
Oh, yeah, old cornberg.
Uh-huh, cornberry.
Yeah.
It did...
In what kind of a coincidence or collaboration that he had with them?
I don't know if Ernest knew auto or not.
Oh, I see.
I don't know, but his theories were very...
very hot at that time.
Very pertinent, very...
You know, kind of...
They were starting to be able to explain narcissistic disorders, personality disorders,
you know, borderline features, that kind of thing.
Uh-huh.
And, um...
Hmm.
I think most of us were very, very interested because we could see that patients didn't necessarily
fall into very neat categories of, you know, including ourselves.
You know, we were very complex and we would discover that.
Uh-huh.
And sometimes we didn't fit into those neat categories.
So that's...
That was a first-hand experience on, you know.
Yeah, so to repeat the questions in a museum, it's like a different way.
Did he collaborate with anyone?
Was he close to anyone professionally?
Maybe that question does not apply, but I thought I would ask it.
Uh-huh.
I don't recall him collaborating at MPAP.
I do remember him presenting cases that he had...
How in a lecture?
Oh, yes.
We had a course called case presentation.
Oh, I see.
What was that?
And so he was teaching it or supervising it?
Well, there would be, um,
a whole series of different analysts to come in and present a case.
And the students would hear a different person every week.
They'd hear a different analyst.
And that analyst would describe their work with a patient.
I know after I graduated, I did that.
And what were his comments?
Uh, earnests?
Oh, what was the method of...
Oh, the method is...
Yeah, the students would then ask questions.
So it would be kind of a formal presentation.
Uh, whatever the analyst wanted to present.
Some aspect, though.
They might have sort of a slant or, you know, the reason I chose this case for you tonight
is because, you know, it illustrates, you know, something about,
hmm, what the training is about or something about some of the newer theories.
Yeah, and what was Angel's sort of a function or reaction in these sessions?
He would answer questions after he presented the case.
And, uh, get into a discussion with the students.
You know, he would ask, you know, questions of them.
In other words, it would be, it would be a, kind of a dialogue.
From after the case was presented, where students could, um,
ask any question they wanted about the theory, about the techniques,
about the practice, about the field,
because it was, you know, for their learning.
Yeah.
So what did he seem to stress the technique or theory,
or what he seemed to have been his sort of his forte?
Okay. I'm thinking now, I remember, I think one of those papers is here.
Yeah.
He was interested in counter-transfence, which means, um,
explain it to the papers.
Yes.
The, it's the flip side of transfer,
transfer was, um, I would say probably the main tool that, that Freud, um,
conceptualized as for, um, the work of psychoanalysis, that the transfer,
that the patient has towards the analyst, the feelings, that the patient has,
the attitudes, whatever the patient might project onto the analyst is, the transfer.
Um, would be, would be the subject and the focus of analysis.
Not, you know, the everyday life of the patient is the patient described it,
nothing, you know, that's kind of, um, theoretical, but in the sessions with the patients,
you're working with the transfer, which is why the, the analyst is relatively,
um, let's say, neutral is the wrong word because that's, that's not what you want to be.
But, um, you don't want to be as an analyst, uh, so personal that the patient starts asking
questions about your life and the focus moves away from themselves.
And you also want to be enough of a blank screen to quote a term so that the patient then, um,
can, um, can project and, and everyone does. We all try to have transferences all the time.
We just don't know that that's what they are. Someone who minds is of someone else,
we don't realize that we're reacting to that person the way we did to someone in the past,
that kind of thing. So, yeah, the counter transfer is, is when the analyst himself,
herself, has feelings towards the patient, that they are projecting also, that are induced by
the work that they're doing with the patient. And it's inevitable, just like transference is
and it's up to the analyst to do self-analysis or to be in his or her own personal analysis
in order to understand these counter, counter transference reactions. Particularly if they get in
the way of the work, if that say an analyst finds that they just can't work with older people,
you know, I don't know why or, but really wants to, you know, and, and doesn't understand,
they would, they would work on that. So, I remember one of Ernest's papers on counter transference
had to do with how he analyzed one of his dreams and it helped him to understand a counter transference
that he was having with the patient because the dream I believe was about a memory from his childhood
and then he saw a parallel there with the patient and he worked it through so that he could then
empathize with the patient's situation in a way that he might not have been able to
had he not realized the correspondence with his own life experience.
And that was very much a hot topic in our training,
transverse and counter transference, becoming aware of one's counter transference. So every time
we would present a paper, particularly or not paper, but a case, the students had case
presentation courses too where we would present our work to our colleagues, you know, with a teacher
every time, usually we'd be asked by the teacher or someone, you know, what kind of
counter transference issues does this work evoke for you? Because it's not even a question of
does it evoke it's just what kind because we're all human.
Integrating into his own understanding. So that...
What in particular for the convert or for the cohort?
That would have been the understanding of narcissistic disorders and borderline personality
and to distinguish between the two and to understand how Kernberg's definition of
borderline personality disorder and narcissism differed from cohorts.
And COVID was more of the cutting edge then, so that because he was more empathic and he worked
more with counter transference, I think there's much more aware of his counter transference reactions
to patients who had personality disorders or issues that kind of interfered with their being
able to have insight and to see their part in what goes on in their lives because of the
the narcissistic issues, because of narcissistic wonder. So I earnest, I always felt that he was more,
he leaned towards COVID because COVID was more very much like Ernest in that he was very
empathic and he felt that empathy was an essential tool whereas Kernberg did not talk about empathy.
He was more, kind of a little more, say, emotionally detached from these patients because they do
evoke such powerful counter transference reactions. Which is a connection to him.
So that we all felt that I did most of us then that COVID was on the right track.
Unfortunately, he died before he wrote any more books but the books that he wrote are very
important. I still read them.
So as far as the list of the union of concern, cyclanastical and dysconcerned,
so it was this essentially put together by angels and he is the signatory.
All I see. The initial professional advisory board. I don't know if these names are all the same.
It was the idea maybe an alternative table but what was the idea behind the union of concern,
cyclanalysts? Where did it start? Angels?
Yes. He was influenced, of course, by other people who had been involved in anti-war and anti-nuclear
movements beforehand. But Ernest was the kind of guy that when he got an idea, he carried it through.
He implemented it.
So he got just a huge ground swell of support. Of course, it was during the cold war.
We very scary time. Of course, it's been scary for decades. But we wanted to explore the cyclanalysts
and psychoanalyxcyclotherapists, explore the psychological issues that were,
let's say, the result of the nuclear kind of the specter of the nuclear kind of, I don't know
the word is Holocaust but there was always that fear, that tension.
And so the psychological aspects was how it related to cyclanalysts and psychotherapists.
So, we have a very strong, very strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong,
strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong
strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong
Don't fight, don't fight, don't fight, don't fight, don't fight, don't fight, don't fight, I've heard new methods, PSEL май Ness Thank you and we're slow that we got carried over.
My question would be now to continue with this. How come, maybe I'm latitude question, but how come the psycho analysts get together on this subject is
of his influence and his activities or how would you explain that?
Well, I think Ernest provided the forum and the interest was already that
was the organization and the meetings that we had on the speakers that we would bring
in.
And petitions or whatever it is we decided to do.
And I think our colleagues in the community was one of our purposes.
But we had to repeat my question, how come psychoanalysts became so involved?
Well, I think because psychoanalysts work every day with the effects of living in a world
that's threatened by nuclear disaster, whether it be nuclear power plants or whether it
be nuclear bombs and feel so helpless because they're working on a one-to-one basis.
So it provided an outlet.
I think some of the analysts had been involved, many, probably a lot of them, with the anti-nuclear
movements of the past, but not maybe as analysts or psychotherapists or psychologists.
Because this group here that's for which in Angel signed, these were all psychoanalysts.
Yes, and psychoanalysts, psychotherapists.
Yeah.
So that would...
There were groups of doctors.
They called the...
I don't remember what they were called, but groups of doctors and scientists that were
anti-nuclear groups, but not psychoanalysts and psychotherapists until this.
So it was time.
It was time.
But it was also sort of the product of angels.
Yes, his vision.
Yeah.
Where do you suppose this notion of being anti-war come from, still from the first world war?
I would imagine, first and certainly the second, my goodness, are the prelude to the second
world war because of his own first-hand experiences in Europe during these two wars.
And he knew more first-hand and most of us here because the way Europe wasn't affected.
Although a number of names are also other in the case.
And yes, right.
So that may account for some of the attraction.
Of course, I was involved in the anti-war, anti-nuclear movement way back in the 50s and
hadn't been in a formal group for some time.
Nice to go on.
Peace marches and that kind of thing.
So it was just wonderful.
Is he speaking also frequently about this subject?
Yes, any opportunity.
And certainly at all the meetings that we would have.
We'd probably have a couple of meetings a year, one big conference.
And Ernest always spoke.
He always, in fact, I think one of his papers is amongst these papers here.
And then we might have smaller meetings where people would get together.
And Ernest would be the one who presented something or various other people would too.
Again, to push him, maybe to hide.
But what was it that he was frequently to your recollection talking about in this context?
The horrors of war.
And what we need to do to bring to the government of the world, the officials, our expertise
how damaging and how negative, how destructive.
So it was not necessarily nuclear but the fact of war at the possibility of another war?
Yeah, but with the focus on the nuclear now, because that was the biggest surge of
the biggest fear.
Yeah.
I guess any war at that point probably would have been a nuclear war.
Yes.
Yeah, I guess so.
That was the focus.
But also when there was accidents in nuclear power plants, we would get involved.
Sometimes, I don't know how I'm trying to remember if we went to demonstrations or meetings
that they would have because there were other groups like that at the same time who are
protesting against.
And what did he feel that it was worthwhile to do this regardless or did he also see some
results of any kind?
I would say that in the short time that we were together, that we met what he saw and
what we saw was at least an expanding membership and an expanded view on the part of the members
of the scope of the problem because we'd bring in speakers who had specializations and
new…
Or from other professions.
Yeah, like scientists against the war against nuclear arms.
It's been so long, so it's hard for me to remember all the different groups there were,
but we did link up with them like Robert Lifton.
He was involved with the…
I believe the physicians.
A girl.
Yeah.
He was kind of an advisor to the Ernst.
So what was the strength to visualize on his angel pushing this organization?
Did he feel that something was getting accomplished?
He never…
He never…
He never gave up.
And I think what…
Oh, I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
I see.
You see.
Over and over.
I see, over.
You see.
Over and over.
It is on my mind and on mines of others.
Of course.
So it allowed us an outlet for talking about it, for learning about it, for communicating with the…
The powers that been, and for educating our colleagues and hopefully, the general public,
and we are…
Our meetings were always open to anyone who wanted to come.
Where they quarried a few people at those meetings at times?
Yes.
Yes.
auditorium.
Oh, a lot of folks have become.
And they come from all around.
I mean, you know, you read the card file, people coming down from Puketsy and from Long
Island and you know people who were not necessarily living right in New York City, but who
was looking for something like this.
Yeah.
Then now as far as the, in its context to some of the names that you mentioned, we just read
the off those that you, that you, that you cited.
So Litton, what was the relationship to Litton?
He was the honorary president.
Yeah.
Close or not?
Not so close.
I would imagine, I can imagine, but I don't know that Ernest consulted with him in the
beginning about setting up an organization like this because Litton had his own.
Oh, I see.
He had the physician's career.
And how Martin Bergman?
Martin would have been a colleague that would have lent his name and, you know, his, his
support, you know, at meetings.
I don't know if he did any presentations or any writing, but...
And Peter Blows.
Same.
Uh-huh.
And who else did you mention as being closer to Ernest Angel's views?
Ruben Blind?
Um, yes.
More active?
Yes.
Because I don't know what Ruben Blind was.
He, an immigrant also.
No, no, he wasn't.
How, you mentioned that a couple times, uh, psych...
Psycho-ismeth.
Psycho-ismeth.
Yeah.
What was the connection there?
Well, his role with Ernest was more like mine, I guess, in the sense that, you know,
born in this country and just very concerned about the state of our...
And both of you being younger, of course, then?
Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to.
Yeah, right.
I guess we were kind of like, several, several of us were kind of like, I felt like
it was his child in some ways or certainly his, uh, uh, that he was my mentor.
And I think a side felt that too.
Uh-huh.
Very strongly.
And I think that you mentioned also Ruben Fine.
Um, Ruben Fine was, um, uh, I believe that I've come to think of it.
I think it was one of the original members of NPP, you know, that he was a contemporary,
I believe, of Ernest.
Maybe a little younger, but he developed his own institute.
But we certainly well known in the field, so he, he lent his, his name and his, um,
right, and the old...
And the old...
And the old...
And the old...
Yeah.
Same category.
And did you say the Carl Menningno came?
I don't, I don't know if he ever came, but I know Ernest had a correspondence with him,
and I don't know how I knew that.
I, maybe, I saw some of the letters.
Oh, and Carl Menager, I believe he sent a letter, uh, of a statement or something too,
that we opened up one of our meetings with, you know, greetings, you know, and I wish
I could be there.
Uh-huh.
A statement that Ernest read.
Yeah.
And then, of those, it's a couple of me, because Peter Noilbauer or Niederland, and you
see any connection there?
Um, I don't, only that the names are familiar for, as being high profile people.
Got it.
And Ron.
He was, um, a member of the New York Freudian Society, also in PAP.
He was, um, a younger analyst, very, very good analyst, very, you know, had a...
Sort of emphasizing the connection to Ernest Angel and Anager, to Ernest Angel.
Well, they, they were in a number of, of organizations together.
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
And Roy Schaefer.
Um, Roy was very high profile analyst during that time.
And, um, I mean, Ernest knew just about everybody.
And, and the, the ones who were high profile were, because he was high profile.
Yeah.
And Roy was, was in his league.
Uh-huh, always.
Yeah.
And who else do you see here?
Uh, the old stall.
Oh, stall-erot.
Yeah, he was also high profile, and he was, um, kind of cutting edge at that time.
I don't think Robert ever, he might have come to a meeting.
I don't know, I don't recall, but he was certainly there in New York at that time.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, yeah.
And one was, did he come to any meetings?
Yes, he did.
He did.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
So, of those people, those that actually came to meetings was probably the Litton.
And, oh yeah, how about Kurt Arle and, and Blows?
Um, yes.
Were they expecting it?
Kurt, I, I think Kurt Adler, I don't know about Blows.
He might have come to one.
I don't know.
Uh-huh.
Because I, I didn't join for the first year.
Yeah.
I don't know how many of these people were involved at the, at the ground level.
Uh-huh.
So, to restate this work.
And Salt Hutton, and also he was a, um, a colleague who was perhaps a little younger than
Ernest, who was involved in a lot.
He's an MD, but he was also a member of NPAP.
Oh, okay.
Interesting.
And the, and the Joe Klein and Claques Bern and Garjoule and Bloomgarten, any of those
who were closer to Ernest than others?
Oh, all of those people were very close to Ernest.
Because this was his original board of director, directors.
Abby was very close.
Um, I mean, they had been colleagues throughout, you know, their whole experience here in
this country.
I don't know if Abby was an immigrant.
I don't think so.
No, really.
Yeah.
But she, she, Ernest, would, they probably went through their training together.
You just had a sense of being very, very close.
And Gerald, this, um, was also close.
He was very, um, much of an activist and went to all the meetings and he made, he stayed
on the board for quite some time, or at least on the, uh, advisory board.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Frank, Frank's room.
Uh, Clyde's room.
I don't know.
That name does not ring a bell for me.
Mm-hmm.
Joe Klein, yes.
Very similar to Ernest.
She was a little younger than Ernest, but, um, went through, um, she was older than
I was.
So I saw, saw, saw her as a senior analyst and, um, she was close to Ernest also and, and
saw all as well.
Saw was very, um, kind of like Ernest in a lot of ways, very eclectic kind of guy, very,
um, broad-minded, you know, and Martin, of course, is.
Yeah.
And, uh, another question, since, you know, he started in literature, which he was surprised
that if you have a talk in about literature, literary terms, literary works as they,
you know, as, as being part of his work and just trying something.
Mm-hmm.
Well, what comes to mind is that he wrote a, uh, review of, uh, a movie, which was literature,
you know, in a way.
Um, I think it was, um, let's see what was the name of that movie.
Oh, uh, forgotten.
But it, I'll think of it.
It's in here.
Uh, it was a popular movie at the time.
And, um, Ernest reviewed it, but from-
At a time in the 70s?
Yeah.
That probably is 70s.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
During, during the 70s.
Yeah.
And so, um, what made him write every-
There are any arts, um, in his choosing to review a movie for, um, I believe for the
Psychoanelitic Review, I believe.
Oh, I see.
What was that?
Uh, did he see and comment on movies in general?
Um, do I remember- he was, he was interested in everything in the arts.
Mm-hmm.
He's, yeah, popular, um, you know, um, culture.
Um, he was one of the youngest older men, I guess, that I've ever met.
Apparently, he was in his 90s when he died and-
Yep.
No one knew his age.
He never told anyone his age.
Oh, I see.
At least no one that I knew.
Yeah, what did you know about his, sort of, the last years and his death?
I know that his wife was ill, had been diagnosed with cancer.
And-
Which wife?
Oh, oh, oh, Evelyn.
It was that that must have been at least his second wife.
Oh, well, it's, it was his- his most recent and his last, yeah.
Yeah.
What was your maiden name?
I don't know.
Uh, anyway, so Evelyn.
Yeah, Evelyn.
Yeah, continue.
Um, she had been diagnosed with cancer, so she was, um,
was trying to get treatments in different parts of the country.
And I think Mexico, um, because I think she had a pretty, um, grim prognosis.
And, um, Ernest was trying to keep up with- with her and what was going on with her,
as well as to maintain his practice.
He worked right to the very end, very end.
But what happened-
So did she then die before he died?
No, she-
She didn't die before he- he died when he was at the Newark airport on his way out to
California, uh, to see her, you know, while she was undergoing some alternative treatments.
And um, he was, um, he had just seen his patients, he was going to dash out there and then
I'm sure he was going to dash back.
Ernest was so- so energetic.
And so, um, just so full of energy and, um, and, um, I mean, I can imagine him being,
you know, in kind of a state of anxiety as well.
Yes, of course, of course.
Yeah.
And so-
And so-
And also under pressure.
Yes.
Was this a heart attack?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Did he have one before?
I don't- I don't think so.
I'd never heard of it.
And I don't think anyone else had either.
It was a surprise.
But, um, he died at the airport.
Were you there?
No.
I don't think anyone was.
I- that- from the institute.
How did you learn about that?
Um, from a colleague.
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
And Saik Kupersmiths talked about it too, um, at the memorial service.
Where was the- the working apartment or working office?
Was on Riverside Drive.
Roughly at what- at what street?
Oh, 106th.
Oh, 106th.
I know- I know the- oh, yeah.
Building.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's right on the corner of Riverside and 106th.
I- I kept a- a- an envelope where I had-
Oh, yes, you had seen it.
Ernest- address- I just kept that just in case you wanted to know what his address was.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, tell me a little bit more about the sort of the aftermath.
So, that's where his office- uh, working office.
So, who finally sort of- you took some materials, other people took some books.
I know that- uh, the doctor of homies- we spoke.
To be- yeah.
Yeah.
He had some books, but nothing much beyond that.
Yeah.
So, what might have happened to his papers?
The papers that I didn't pick up.
Yeah, so the institute, uh, would they-
They might have taken some- it's possible because there were a lot of books there.
Um, I just went with- like a small group.
Yeah, yeah.
And there were more books and more people due to come.
Uh-huh.
But, uh-
Who organized that?
Who was responsible for the disillusion of-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
I think-
Was-
Was the last wife of Ernest much younger than him?
She was younger.
Yes.
Might have been-
Might have been even by 20 years, but she didn't appear to be because Ernest was so vigorous and so vital.
You know, he was so trim and so-
And such good shade.
I mean, he-
He's skied, he walked, he-
You know, he took care of himself.
Oh, I see.
Yeah, so he looked a lot younger.
20 years younger.
And so, then, in a sense, his work was sort of dissolved at that point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It probably got picked up if it didn't get thrown away by someone who came there or maybe MPAP because MPAP was going to come in.
Yeah.
Pick up some-
Besides MPAP, would you like to think of another person besides the immediate family who may have still have some material?
Or, or by angel?
Um, the only people I can think of is I-
I mentioned Murray Krim.
Oh, yeah, Krim.
Yeah.
He might, if he's still alive, he might have picked some things up.
Because it was the people from the UCPP, the Union of Concerns, I think.
Yeah.
We were the ones who were there to kind of help sort of get the information.
Sort of get the apartment cleaned out.
And his daughter did come.
Yes, she mentioned to me that she came, but the fact that she did not take much.
Right.
Because I asked her about that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Did she mention that I might have taken some-
Yeah, that's right.
He probably did not speak to you about immigration or other-
Immigrays.
His work was, was psychoanalysis.
Yes.
So, that's the information.
Yeah.
He had some stories about what it was like when he first came to New York.
Oh, your car.
Just, some things, just not anecdotal.
I remember him- actually, there's a couple of stories.
I don't know whether you've wanted to-
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
You've got to record them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One is, in the summer, he said,
people would go out and they would sleep in Riverside Park and Central Park,
because it was totally safe back in the forties.
I mean, first of all, maybe late 30s, I don't know exactly when he came.
But he said, they didn't think anything of it.
They go, take sleeping bag out or something like that,
because it was so hot and they didn't have air conditioning.
No, of course.
So, it was just, he was just amazed to think about that.
I remember him saying, because now, you know, just wasn't safe.
It wasn't safe.
And the city to do anything like that at night, I mean, like goodness.
And-
Anything else?
Just another call?
Yeah.
This was a story that he told me once when-
I don't remember what the context was, but he just told me once,
while we were working together that when he-
when he first left the concentration camp-
and I don't know the circumstances of his leaving,
but it looked like they were turned out from one of his papers.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They were turned out, you know, thank God.
He said he just walked through the gates because he was allowed to leave at that point.
I don't know if it closed or what.
And he went down the road not too far.
He just walked until he came to some stores or something.
And he went into the store.
And the proprietor of the store said, why did you get that crazy haircut?
Because his hair was all chopped, you know, by the Nazis, you know,
and shaved and-
It's just all bad.
And Ernest said, he said, I just came out of the concentration camp.
That's how I got this crazy haircut.
And he said, what?
And this was-
somebody who'd lived, maybe a mile or two away.
And didn't know about the concentration camp.
And Ernest was just amazed at that.
At that kind of-
That reality, I guess, is that people just didn't know.
I didn't want to know.
No, no, and this was very early.
Yes, I guess it was.
Yes.
This was studied through 34th.
Oh, was it-
But it's just conceivable, yeah.
I hope, yeah, really.
Okay.
So it was 30th.
Thank goodness he got in early.
Yeah, the fact that he was released was in a sense of a strange development.
Uh-huh.
That he wasn't able to really get it.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
That's a good thing about that.
Yeah, okay.
Is it on now?
Yeah.
In terms of his values, his, you know, his ideals,
and what he was going to do to basically live-
his ideals and realize them through-
Yeah, yeah.
So organization-
Makes sense.
And the way that he touched people on an individual level,
and uh-huh, as a human being.
You know, I just felt that he was extraordinary,
extraordinarily loving and disciplined.
You know, at the same time, very highly disciplined
with, um, with tremendous, um,
guided, really, by his heart, but of course, his intellect as well.
Intel actually, very, very brilliant, uh, kind of a renaissance man in a way.
And, and because I admire him so much, and, um,
and it was such a loss when he died, it was like losing a family member,
because my family was out here in the West Coast,
and I was there, you know, living in New York City.
Um, uh, he felt like-
Yeah, that's an eye-sort of interest to say that.
Because it sort of adds to sort of the image of him as a person.
Uh-huh.
Uh, yeah.
He-
I didn't look at it.
