I just asked you about names of some friends and if maybe I could run through a few of them
again, so to establish the relationship to Gourmetz.
I'll start with the news school first. I think I know enough now about Schütz and Gourmetz,
so I don't need to ask that. And I think Jonas and Gourmetz, unless you would like to add something
to that, I spoke to Mrs. Schütz, but I got actually quite a bit more about Gourmetz from
Professor Jonas. So I am aware of the history of the Department of the Laws of the
Society. I think that perhaps that I have some information. How about Hannah Arren? What kind
of the relationship was that? I tell you, Hannah Arren, we knew Hannah in Paris quite well.
In Paris after 33. When she was still married to Günther Antos, Günther Sveren at that time.
And you know him too? Yes, yes. And at that time, Hannah was interested in, in, in true
ish affairs very much. Yes, I know where of that. You are where of that. In the meantime, she
put after the state of Israel, I think she from the ideological point of view, she broke away from
that. Yeah, I was a friendship, I would say. Did you see her quite often? Yes, yes, you are also.
Not, not we, we didn't have the intimacies and Hans has had, Hans Jonas at with her, but we were
very good friends, I would say. To whom was let's say your husband that now maybe asking the
question professionally, Closet, Jonas Schütz or Arren? No, Schütz, Schütz, there is no
doubt about that, because Schütz and, and he were, they exchanged all their thoughts.
From the beginning. I was just going to say, how was the idea conceived of this voluminous
correspondence? Was this planned? No, no, no, no, no, that was not planned at all. That was,
so to say, let's say, both felt in the beginning he isolated, because they are interlaced, Schütz
interlaced and my husband interls where primarily in phenomenology, Schütz from the social point of
view and and my husband also in way from the social point of view, but with a different,
with a different ideology, with a different notion and they always talked, our, our
wrote, said, we are digging in the same direction from, from, from different side, in the tunnel.
Now how you also mentioned now Kaufmann, yeah Kaufmann also failed, but also very, very close.
Kaufmann failed, said died quite early, so when did your acquaintance come? No, from the
beginning when we came to, he was instrumental, Schütz and he both were instrumental in getting us
out of France. What do you mean before 1940? After, after 1940, in 1940, both got together
and tried to, my husband came then as a visiting professor, non-quater to Trans-Opkins,
through the efforts of Felix Kaufmann and Schütz. And you mentioned Fritz Kaufmann?
Yeah, Fritz, no, no, Fritz, but it would be interesting if you would go to Switzerland,
you, by any chance you could meet his widow. And what was the relationship?
Fritz, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm, Fritz Kaufmann was interested in literary works. He was a friend of, of
Thomas Mann, he had a large correspondence with Thomas Mann, came from Russia also.
So this, this was a circle around Tusser, even so, even so, they went into different direction.
Fritz Kaufmann went into the literary form, Felix Kaufmann more to the mathematics and, and,
scientific method, Schütz through sociology, and my husband more into, into the development of
Hussalzart, in different, also with certain criticism. Now you mentioned also London,
with where London, with this acquaintance started. In Paris. Also in Paris. In Paris. How long were you in Paris?
Seven years. Seven years. Yeah, seven years. How did that come about after all? He, well, maybe this is not too far,
but, but, no, the back of Fritz London started, that was really very strange. He started out as a young
student in Munich to study philosophy. If I'm not mistaken, this fender, fender and Tusser, Hussalz and
fender were, were, connected together. Hussal always thought that fender would be his successor.
And, he comes Spiegelberg in. Spiegelberg also was a student of fender. Is that name familiar?
Fender? No, it isn't. Yeah. So, you became with London, did you maintain? Yeah, we, we
maintained this friendship here. And, but Fritz London was a theoretical physicist later. And since my
husband was interested in physics as well as in mathematics, because he studied both as Nebenfischer
in philosophy and also in psychology. Yeah, now you, then now you dropped the name Spiegelberg several times.
Yeah, but first Fritz London. Fritz London. Fritz London later was still interested in, in, in philosophical ideas.
So, that means when we visited them in Dören in Norskauleina,
and they exchanged, they are very ideas. He explained his theoretical physics, physics, which my husband
understood, and he explained his ideas in connected, connected with Phenomenology.
Now, you dropped the name Spiegelberg several times. Yeah. Now, he is also a former emigrate
Spiegelberg. Spiegelberg. Yeah. Also a former emigrate. A former? A former emigrate, German,
some German, some German, yes, yes, yes. How old the man is Spiegelberg? Oh, he must be nearly 80, I would
think. Oh, I see. Should I contact him to him? Yes. I see. Does he come from Munich? I don't know where he
came from, but he started in Munich. Oh, I see. Well, I, this is a...
But he's in St. Louis. Yeah, that's a slip up. I didn't, I did not know about him. Yeah, yeah.
Or a, um, or... And he has a very, really, very great knowledge of, of, of, uh, everything
connected. I brought them together with, with the widow of Fritz London, when I was in October in
St. Louis, there was a, it is the Aron Gowicz Memorial lecture there. And by pure chance,
I met Spiegelberg very early and he asked me where I was staying. I said, it's a,
visit daughter of Fritz London. It wouldn't be, you wouldn't know him. He said, Fritz London,
wait a minute. And then he brought out an article which Fritz wrote. And, and he wrote to me,
he said it was, said in some meantime. So, you spoke, said something about the role of Spiegelberg.
So he is, as you say, working or has been, uh, working in, in, in the family, in the family. Yeah,
yeah. In the history of phenomenology. Uh-huh. All right. Well, then I must in that case,
contact him. And, and you were, when did you meet, or your husband, when did they meet Spiegelberg?
Spiegelberg. Oh, so, but, yeah. No, I think here, but they knew of course, they knew about each other.
So, so, Hussle. Yeah. Now, how about now two or three names that you mentioned in this country,
James Edie. James Edie. Yeah. Uh, what is the connection? Also, I mean, James Edie, um,
was also interested in Melopon Tee, if said name is familiar to you. I heard it, but that's about all.
Yeah. That's all. Melopon Tee was one of the most important French philosopher, who was sitting
in my husband's seminar in Paris, in Paris, yeah. Getting back once more to, to Paris. What was
the specific position of your husband in Paris? Yeah, position. You're not a position to get in
Paris was not so very easy. Yeah. But since, um, there were a few, a handful, let's say, of German,
German, uh, Emigris, who had some, some backing, some backing of, of a French philosopher's,
like Fritz London, he got the same position. That was, um, they were allowed to give lectures,
connected with the soap on, in the institute, destroy the science. And, um, my husband brought,
for the first time, the connection between phenomenology and the style theory,
Oh, that's true. Two, two, two Paris. And in sets, lecture, Melopon Tee was sitting.
All right. Now, back to James C. Yes. Yeah. And set is set. I come to James E.D. because James E.D.
was instrumental in, in bringing Melopon Tee to this country in translating Melopon Tee.
Uh, and there is a whole section of, um, suppress at that time doesn't exist any longer.
So no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I have, uh, and, and, and E.D. also is interested in existentialism
and in phenomenology. And point A is the P-O-N P-T-A. The spelling of point A P-O-N.
Melopon Tee, Melopon Tee, M-E-R, L-E-A-U, and point P-O-N-T-Y.
Oh, point A, I see. I see. So, could other B-I-E is his first name? No.
No. Maurice, Maurice Melopon Tee.
No, Maurice, I have a correct, yeah. All right.
And he is now very well known here. So the efforts of E.D. and Tee School.
I see. How about Bernard Corn? What was the connection?
No, Bernard Corn, as a connection was, uh, my husband's interest in, in, in the history of science.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And now, anyone else you mentioned perhaps some others in this country, of course,
and some, uh, in Europe or in Germany, who were in Europe or in this country?
That's the answer. There are so many. I really don't know.
Sokolowski, who is in Washington. Sokolowski.
He is, um, when you say in Washington, what, what, what, you know, in, in this Catholic university.
Well, in American, in American university. Yeah.
Also, also, very serious, uh, philosopher.
One of the, one of the most serious philosopher here in this country, I've been thinking.
Yeah. Well, this, this will do, I just, yeah.
Maurice, of course, Maurice, Maurice, M. Nittensen.
Or, uh, that, I, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Maurice, Nittensen, intimate friend.
Okay. Now, I want to ask sort of my, thanks to, what is this about the materials.
Wherever they may exist. Yeah.
Number one, did, uh, our goal, which, uh, write anything that might be called autobiographical,
that's still exist? No. Not an expanded, uh, a few patients or something like that.
An autoport, biographical, I don't, I don't, I don't, about himself in other words.
No, I don't, I really don't say so. Was he ever a, a keeper, regular, or irregular of diaries
on notebooks? Also not. Uh, so that was not his way of working.
No, not, not his way of working. Uh, not his way of working.
Yeah. Okay. Now, but I assume that there is either here or, uh, or a, or a DNA archive,
a, whether ordered or not, yeah, file of correspondence is professional.
I, I still have it here. Oh, you still have it here. Okay.
I have, I have, where I have seen the voluminous, uh, Schütz, uh, uh, uh,
go-to-which, uh, correspond. Yeah. That I'm aware of, of course.
What, who else? That's why I asked you about the friends first.
Yeah. Forgillin. Here, here, the correspondence.
Was Eric Fögelin. Uh, who else is represented in the world?
Salmon, Salmon. But I don't, I don't think I have anything, uh, from Salon.
But was Schütz Fritz Kaufmann?
Is there any, the correspondence? Was Schütz Kaufmann?
Felix Kaufmann, do you suppose? Felix Kaufmann.
You guys have to be very many. Yeah. I'm just asking for the very first.
I don't, uh, I have to, to look it up because so far,
so far, I looked through and say, uh, there are many more, there are many more.
Yeah. Hobart Jonas is. No, he has no, no, no correspondence.
Hobart Jonas.
And no, because we, we always, we always, uh, uh, uh,
lived in the same city. Hobart London.
Um, I think there is a correspondence with London.
But this is much more private.
Yeah, in the North. Yeah.
I'm not trying to look at it.
And I, I, yes, yeah.
These records of life, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's for my own equation. Yeah.
And it's, and now the others, like, for example, uh,
Spiegelberg, certainly, Spiegelberg, probably, say, are also some, yeah.
Because they were quite, uh, in, in a very, very intimate good relationship.
How about Eddie? I assume.
No, I don't think so. It's one. Yeah, sure.
See, there must be some cause one, because his book was printed, um,
in that was it, you can, yeah, well, that's good enough.
Yeah, I'm trying to do it by memory.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And then Bernhard Cohen, the master, yeah, Bernhard, no, also not
cosperant, it's because we always lived together.
But Bernhard Cohen, at that time, tried to get him into, into Harvard.
And he was teaching, he will be surprised.
He was teaching physics during the war at Harvard.
Who? My husband.
Physics. What kind of a physics?
Physics.
But in what kind theoretical?
What?
What kind of physics?
A physics.
A physics, a regular physics, introduction to physics and regular physics,
four officers who were during the war sent back to study.
Interesting.
How about any letters from Natanssohn or sokolowski?
And I don't think so.
No, I don't think so.
I don't think so.
So it's a response.
I tell you why?
Because this Hans Jonas worked in a different way.
His interest was in a different way.
But they were very good colleagues together, not so intimate friends.
Well, you see, I'm not asking necessarily the most that there ought to be a lot of
correspondence. I was wondering who is representing the correspondence.
I assume that there are also probably files or folders with correspondence.
There are files.
Publishers.
Yes, probably.
Yeah, that I have.
So there's publishers I have.
Yeah.
Which publishers?
If you can, University of Paris.
And then Walter DeGroit,
engineering.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyone else?
I have to...
Probably we think now.
Probably we think now.
And then there was...
His first was...
I was published in Germany.
The Brussels field.
The field of consciousness was first published in France.
Then translated into English.
And then again,
translated into German.
Any other correspondence with any personal, more personal correspondence?
No, most...
And the most...
No, no, no.
Mostly the correspondence was in connection with professional,
mostly with philosophical aspects.
Yeah.
And as I was...
I've been now meaning to ask about your husband's languages.
So he was born in Russia.
He was...
He left Russia when he was in Vilna,
when he was six years old.
And he went to...
Not really.
Not really.
Even so...
So what's the next language?
French.
German.
Yeah.
So he started in Germany.
Panni?
In which sequence?
Where did he start from?
In first German.
Ah, in then French.
In then French.
And then English.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because certainly...
French, but French was his...
Really...
He loved France and he loved everything which was...
Which...
Which thanks together with...
With...
And probably he learned French from his government.
Gov'ernness, something like that, I think so.
In that connection,
where do you yourself come from?
I come from Germany.
Which...
Which start?
To fullter.
Or from fullter.
Yeah.
When did you meet?
When?
Or where did you meet?
We met my husband.
I met my husband when he was a student in Frankfurt.
Before I left,
I myself was a Zionist
in my younger years and went to Palestine.
Oh, I see.
When it was not fashionable to go to Palestine.
When it was really very difficult to live there.
And then you came back?
And then in 29 I came back.
And then we knew each other before.
So and then we married.
In 27 I came back.
And in 29 we married.
What are your husband's exact dates?
I can look them up, but I...
What?
It's a birth date.
It's in...
It's in 1901.
And at the end of the day.
In January.
Which January?
Which day in January?
Pardon me?
Which day?
17th.
Or 7th or so on.
17th.
So he would have been 83.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what is his death date?
25th of June.
73.
All right.
Let me move on.
I assume that you obviously have copies of his publications.
Both monographs in the original translation as well as copies
of his articles.
Maybe not quite complete.
Yeah.
Most of it is there.
Yeah.
The copies, you know, the copies are all in two volumes.
I mean, there are two volumes of his...
His different, yeah, of his collection.
Was he partly...
Partly unjust psychology and partly unscience.
Always, in...
Always from the phenomenological point of view.
Yeah, of course that.
I'm aware of.
Was he also a reviewer of the works of others?
Yes, yes.
He always got that from Farber.
Yeah.
And do you think that in your files there are still copies of his reviews as well?
Yes.
Most of the times he wrote a rather long review, which were articles.
Not all the time.
Not all the time.
Not all the time.
All right.
Now, having asked about the published materials, but I also assume that they are
quite a few manuscripts and typescripts, whether published or not.
Yeah, but you'll see also Sehol.
Sehol nachlas is...
H.D.K.N.
Yeah, yeah, right.
One copy is in Constance.
And one copy is...
It's a center for...
In research for phenomenology.
Which is...
Sehol...
Sehol set is a group of people to which Lester M.B.
Dick Sena, original Sena.
And this is an established group which follows up phenomenological trend.
And so are most of them all students of my estimate.
And what is the center for...
The center now is where Richard Sena is.
This is a Nashville.
Nashville and also one copy is in Canada, in Waterloo.
Or yes, but I see.
Said you know.
Now yes.
And now the copies are on microfilm or on Syrox.
No, on Syrox.
Okay, Syrox.
Okay, very good.
So the...
And the materials that are at Duquesne and on copy in the three are on Syroxne.
Are these manuscripts and typescripts?
Yeah, right, right.
But it's a manuscript here.
A really very, very difficult to read.
I would not, I would not advise.
I mean, this is...
Those are really for research purposes.
Yeah, no, no, that's right.
I'm just trying to locate them that they do exist, where they exist.
Now, how much of the manuscripts and typescripts has already been published
and what portion of them are actually speaking?
No, no.
And I'm very much against as long as I'm alive.
I don't want that everything is published.
Oh, no, that's not really my question.
Yeah, no, I'm...
It's also...
I mean, there will be, let's see, from the field of consciousness,
he took out one chapter, which is approximately 150 pages.
So, that means it is marginal consciousness.
This will be published.
It will come out in its...
It's a high, Ohio press.
Maybe in May it will come out.
And the editor is Lester Embrie.
So, there must be also correspondences with Embrie.
This Embrie, yes.
How do you spell his name?
EMBLEE.
And Lester.
Lester, yeah.
OK, just to give me an idea, how in terms of the quantity,
how many pages for manuscripts and typescripts are there?
So, quite.
So, a thousand?
I have...
I have Soliscia.
I don't know.
Will you have a list?
I have a list, yeah.
Well, that would actually serve our purposes.
So, we could summarize it in this.
Yeah, I have...
It's a list I have.
As a list I have, and this is also done in a historical way.
Over a good amount.
So, those who are articles which were written in French, in Paris,
so who were written in German, and so after coming to the United States.
Oh, very good.
OK, that answers my question.
Your arm, which did not write things other than in his field of study,
and he did not write anything fictional.
No.
Or a few of you.
No.
Did he not write that?
No.
I'm just asking for the record.
Yes.
And also, I'm asking for the record, because now that I am surprised to find things,
was that he, by any chance, owned, collect,
or receive any musical manuscripts or anything like that?
What?
Different?
You are from composers or something like this, probably?
No, no.
But not from composers, but one of some musicians who was a composer,
was a very intimate friend of ours.
What was that?
And that is Erika Eterkan.
Oh, I see.
Is that name familiar?
Of course, of course.
Yeah.
He was a very old intimate friend.
It still forms a German time.
Are there any letters between them?
You suppose?
No, I don't think so.
I didn't find.
I didn't find anything.
I was asking for a letter.
I found one letter and I gave it, I think, back to his video.
No, we made the report already.
Yeah.
Because this is from the book.
You know, one of our very good friends was Siegfried Karkauer.
Oh, what was the connection?
The connection.
Also from Paris.
From the Paris time.
And any letters between Gorge and Karkauer?
No.
No.
No.
All right.
Let me go on with a few more questions.
Are there any tapes with Gorge's voice on it or the Gorge's
tape?
Yeah, I received one.
I could not.
One of his lectures, which was given in colon, if I'm not mistaken.
And there was, at that time, a young student who is now a professor, also a philosophy in
Bielefeld.
And when I was in Bielefeld, he said, Mrs. Gorge, I have a record of the voice of your
husband.
And he did send his story to me.
Was that?
No, not quite.
Of course.
It was a bad moment.
Not bad, can't we?
Yes.
Shruder.
Shruder is his name.
Very, very, very nice, man.
Any other tapings of his voice?
No, I think so too.
No.
Now, as far as secondary material are concerned, I assume that they are, that you are probably
among the collection folders and so on.
Still newspaper clippings or magazine clippings about him.
And especially reviews of individual works, there must be some.
You mean from his part or about him?
No, not about him.
Yes, there are some.
And have any books devoted to him personally or disappointations?
Yes.
There will be, in the next few months, there will be a memorial volume, which Lister Embrie
also brings out.
And let me see.
Can I just have a look?
Yes, yes.
As I was saying, let me ask just a few more questions.
I assume that you still have here a variety of documents pertaining to his life, whether
it's passport, or scientific, certain appointments or honors.
Yes.
Things like that.
Sure, sure.
Anything in particular that you would want to mention, that's more important than others
in terms of the documents.
He had some full-barreled ones.
And I'm, it's too bad I didn't find it.
A telegram from Kennedy at certain.
Oh.
And what I didn't find, it's anymore.
Among it, maybe if I dig into it.
But on what occasion a telegram from Kennedy?
A father report.
How well he was received in Germany as a full-barreled professor.
Oh, I see.
All right.
And I suppose the same one's true that you still have a selection of photographs or various
things of him with a family.
Yes, from sister.
Would you have any duplicates there?
I would like to have one of my collection.
You mean from that full-barreled of a photograph?
No, no, just a photograph of him.
Yes, I have some.
I have some.
Then I assume that is this most of the library?
Did some of the library or stuff like that?
It all goes to do can.
Or it will go to do to do.
And they will keep it.
They will keep it.
They will keep it.
They ask me for it.
So for example, what we have been doing is that not necessarily every book is put on the
skeptim, it's in special collections, but anything the author has in any way used, marked
or annotated.
All of that is kept as part of the actual collection.
So it is much more important for the book to be published.
But I have this whole library pledge to after my death.
I would say, I would say, if they keep it, that's important.
Any other materials that he may have accumulated, did he get reprints from other colleagues?
I have very many reprints.
And so some of those are left.
Yeah, I have many.
I already give quite a number to do can.
But I have very many.
But I have very many.
I could really, especially also in German.
And so, so, so, so out of print.
Many who are out of print.
Yeah, how many, how large a reprint collection is there?
A filing cabinet drawer or more?
Two?
No, you don't get up just for memory.
I think two, two still and and in the filing cabinet also.
So probably it's something like two yards or something like this if you put it together.
Yeah, quite, quite, quite, quite a bit and very, very important one.
I would say.
Well selected in it.
Yeah.
Any other materials that that he was using for his studies and the settle test on notes,
anything else that he may have used, he may not have.
I'm just asking for the record.
Did he have anything?
Yeah, I found, I found some notes, some notes, even I wanted that the embryo comes
once, somebody else on Kant notes because he was interested in Kant and you and you wrote
quite a number of articles on on his interpretation of Kant.
And there are some notes of that time.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, there's even, there are approximately 150 pages which are not yet published in
here.
He wrote it in German.
Has to be translated and somebody wants to be, to be brings them out.
All right.
Let's look at that.
Yeah.
Oh, spring, I think of New Deaths, but that I don't want to be convinced.
Had by Hussle studied.
And what's the name?
Is that Koei-Ray?
The name?
I think he had been interested in it.
Because he had his whole life after he was a professor for philosophy at the Sopper.
Before the New School, the night the New School?
Yeah, the New School came first after he was born.
Before he was born.
And a very important man, Alexander Koei.
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