Transcript of interview with Ellen Burke, 2003 April

Interview with Ellen Burke

EB: My name is Ellen Burke and I started at the University at Albany in 1965 and
I retired in 2000. I recall the first time I got involved at CSEA was through a
grievance I had in 1970 and we got things resolved. I still wasn't ready to
joint the union and although I went to the union you didn’t have to join then. A
woman named Mary Juracki helped point out the benefits of what I had just gone
through and got me to come to a meeting and from that point on I have been an
activist until the time I retired. And I am sort of..I am in the retirees local.
I haven't gotten involved yet because I am working on some other projects right
now.

FV: They'd better watch out.

EB: They'd better watch out! I'm still young enough to kick around, so I can
kick something.

Fv: So, activism. What's it all about? What have you done? What kind of things?

EB: It's getting involved to make things right and to keep things right once
they're there. I think years ago when I first got involved in the union a lot of
our meetings were social events. I worked in the age of Nelson Rockefeller,
money was plentiful, jobs were plentiful but over time austerity budgets came
in. We came upon hard times at various stages and you didn't have the staff you
had and the need for the union became more evident at that point. I know that
women’s issues, of course, that’s something that is special to me. Women's
issues really weren't addressed way back in the 70's when I first got involved.
Women's jobs were considered secondary. The male person in the job supported the
household. So they didn't really address the needs of women way back then.

It was a good old boys' club and I have to be honest, that's exactly how I felt
in some respects back then. But I was there at the convention when the Women's
Committee became a standing committee against a little opposition but not the
women's opposition. So, that was kind of the beginning of the union recognizing
that women were here to stay in the work force and as you know, they have grown
to either at least half, if not more than half of the work force today. I know
that there were a lot of issues they didn't deal with that women had to face on
the outside and this was a big part of the growth. I think CSEA was one of the
first unions that I can recall of just other unions out there that actually
started moving on women's issues. And they're very strong today in their support
of women's issues. Whether it's daycare, whether it's elder care, whether it's
childcare. They recognize that women need to have these needs addressed.

Fv: Let's go back to the beginning of the Women’s Committee. I want to know
about people’s actions, who did what, how it got there, how it even got to be
presented.

EB: Well, I'm not exactly sure how it got to be presented. I know that a lot of
people felt that the women were moving in the right direction within CSEA and it
was time that they had a standing Women's Committee. And there was opposition
from a lot of men, "Well, we don't have a men’s committee.”

FV: Leaders?

EB: Leaders. Local leaders.
Interview with Ellen Burke
FV: Give me names.

EB: I can't even recall. I know that one of the big forces in having the
Women's Committee a standing committee was Helen Zacko who eventually went on to
be chair for a few years of the women's committee. And I don’t know exact dates.
I just know that it was a rousing success to become a standing committee from
the delegate floor.

Fv: And this was what year?

EB: I'm not sure. It was in the 80's but I'm not sure. I became involved as an
officer in 182 and it was sometime around that point.

Ev: All right. Let's back up then before that was and follow your career. How
did you become an officer? What happened?

EB: Our secretary quit and I was a shop steward and I had attended a few
meetings here and there whenever I was asked and I would help out whenever they
had ticket sales or a party or an event. They would get CSEA members to help
out.

FV: How did you get to be a shop steward?

EB: Mary Juracki. Mary Juracki is the woman who convinced me after my grievance
to get involved. My grievance was back in 1970. And so I was a shop steward but
I didn't do anything but post and help out wherever they needed. I'd post things
on the bulletin boards. I wasn't an active shop steward as far as we know shop
stewards today.

FV: Yeah, it's different.

EB: It's different. And our secretary quit and I said, “Okay," when they said,
"Would you fill in for our secretary?" And I liked it. I liked the people I met.
I liked listening to what their concerns were and I liked seeing what I could do
about it. And I think that's how I got started and then I ran for secretary.

And from that point on I was the secretary. I ran for third vice president and
won. And I ran for second vice president and I ran for first vice president.

And that's as...far as I wanted to go because I got involved with the women's
committee in 1984 on the region level and then in 1985 on the statewide level.

Fv: You know, it seems like to me that in CSEA you can go as far as you want to
go. It's an amazing organization in that sense, because you are empowered.
And you rise to the level of your own capability.

EB: I think one of the points I would like to make is CSEA does train their
people. There are all sorts of workshops out there for the members that help
them run for office, that help them get politically involved, that help them
grow as a person and as an activist. They don't just leave you hanging out
there like some other unions I know that give you a book and say, ‘Here, you're
the shop foreman or you're the shop steward," or whatever and handle these
things. They have very little training. But I don't think CSEA does that.

They know the importance of training their people properly so that they can go
back to the workplace and help their members out effectively.

Fv: Is there a name for that program? The education program?
Interview with Ellen Burke

EB: The education program. There is a health and safety committee. They deal
with health and safety issues and they have a committee made up of the members.
They are constantly giving out literature that deal with all of the ... whether
it's carpal tunnel syndrome or workman's comp, there's a booklet out there and
any member can get that booklet whether they're an activist or not. They just
need to call down to headquarters or go through their offices to get a copy of
that book.

Fv: I remember some ... wasn't there a booklet that became like the template
for the rest of the country or something that started here?

EB: I believe so. I believe also the way CSEA handled that now other unions are
starting to train their members. And that was a long time coming because they
just felt as though they weren't in charge. And while we have an executive staff
here. We have Danny and Marian and Maureen and we have Barbara. And they're not
our bosses although they kid around and call - Danny their boss. They're kind of
like our guiders. It's our union and we make the decisions. It's a democratic
union, I think, and it’s one of the reasons we have gotten so far today.

And with the climate the way it is today, the economic climate, unions are
facing tough times all over the country and I think that CSEA is Still very
strong. They are very strong politically. The politicians look to CSEA for their
support and they also recognize the power that I think CSEA has today. And
that's the thing I've seen grown over the years. There was not a lot mentioned
about politics way back when I first got involved. Now it's a big thing.

FV: What I've learned from talking to people from 100 years old to now is that

it's an amazing transformation because it started ... well, you know the history
of CSEA. -It started as an association more of a social club than anything.
EB: Exactly.

FV: How did that happen? I mean, you know the history of it. Who or what
happened?

EB: I'm not really sure how it all began but I know it stemmed from people...
from what I'm reading of the earlier history before I was involved; there were a
lot of people who were disenchanted. Some of the benefits we have today they
didn't have way back when. The hours were longer, there was no vacation, there
was no sick and people grumbled about it but there was no venue for them to
bring their grumblings to and I think this is how it started as a gripe session
for people to get together and kind of, “Let's see what we can do about this.'
And such is the birth of unions, I guess, and CSEA is no different. This is
basically how I have been led to believe it started. I mean, I'm retired but I'm
not as old as the union.

Fv: I didn't mean to imply you were.
EB: Oh no, no. I've been there a while and...

FV: But you knew ... you've been there a while and when you first joined the
union who was the president then?

EB: Theodore Wenzl.

Fv: What do you know of him?
Interview with Ellen Burke

EB: Well, he was not the president for very long after I got involved but I do
know that I went to a rally down at the Palace Theater and I do know that they
wanted the members to vote for a strike. And the members said, "No, we’re not
voting for a strike." They weren't ready for it. They didn't want it. There was
a lot to f ace even back then and I do know that Mr. Wenzl was very upset about
it and walked offstage. And I don't remember a whole lot about him after that,
to be honest with you. I was only going to bits and pieces of meetings whenever
I was asked and they needed an extra delegate. And back then you could just say,
‘I want you, you and you to be a delegate. It wasn't where right now you have to
be elected and everything, you know. They could just pick anybody to go and
attend these.

FV: When did that change?

EB: Progressively, probably from the 80s on. I don't know the exact dates.

You know, it wasn't anything I had to pay attention but over time then you had
to be a delegate...in fact, over time, the rules and regulations of how you ran
became more strict. And it's almost a good thing because you can't have just
anyone come in and decide they want to run for any office without any training
or experience. I always felt very strongly, I started as a secretary and I
worked my way up. I never felt qualified to go in and be a president of a local.
There are people who do. You have to have some rules and regulations. You have
to have some methods for running and qualifications. And maybe they need a few
more. I don't want it to be restrictive because it's the people's union but I
still think that you need qualified people in there to do this job and to do it
right. Because what we do at the workplace and how we represent our members
affects how the union looks in the eyes of management. And that's what's
important.

Fv: And it's important, as somebody said earlier when we were talking, there's a
culture at CSEA and there's a language. Like with any culture there's a special
language that you ... you want to know how everybody communicates and there’s a
certain way to communicate. Did you find that? Do you have to learn that?

EB: Yeah, you go in green and then you come out knowing exactly what somebody's
talking about even though you weren't even part of the conversation. You'll hear
a key word here or there and you seem to know what issue they're talking about.
I think that comes from the networking and camaraderie that people have. And you
know I have always been a strong defender of my right to go away to a conference
or a workshop to learn what I have to learn and there are people back in the
workplace, see we're not just fighting management, we also fight our own
workers. They want us to be there, to work hard for them but they also chastise
us when they have to answer the phones or whatever when we're not there and
we're at these meetings. But it is because of those meetings that allow us to
learn what we have to learn to understand what our members are looking for and
how to represent them to management when they have an issue they need addressed.

Fv: So is there a need, do you think, for more communication with those
grumblers?

EB: I think so. You know, it's really very hard. People go away to workshops but
they also come back from workshops and they have their own job to do as well.
And sometimes, pardon the language, but you’re damned if you do and damned if
you don't. But you have to have a strong constitution about what you're doing to
be involved in the union. You can't just go in there for the social portion of
Interview with Ellen Burke

it. And there is a certain camaraderie with people when we go away to a
workshop. Part of that appeal of a workshop is to get to meet other people and
interact with them and socialize because what do you do when you're away? I
mean, you're not in your home. You can sit and watch TV in a hotel room but what
you do is you socialize and meet people and a lot of times, you were talking
about the issues that are bothering one person at the workforce and it's over a
cup of coffee or a sandwich or something and then the next thing you know,
they'll say, ""Well, I've got that same problem here. How did you handle it?"
So, even aside from the workshops, aside from the meetings and aside from the
delegates you've got that networking and people helping people. And they
understand because they've been there, done that. So they can interact and
relate to each other. I think that’s where the family comes into the union.

Fv: Yeah. It sounds like it’s very rewarding, psychologically, actively to be an
activist.

EB: Oh, it is. I think so. It is. It’s a lot of work but you've got to like it.
You've got to really get into it.

Fv: I just love this organization. And the way people deal with it and love it
and join it and...

EB: Oh, sure...
Fv: And make it. I mean, it wouldn't be what it is without people like you.

EB: Oh, sure, and we don't always agree. My husband and I have been on
different, he was a union activist, he was too. He's not currently, but he was
for many years and we don't always agree on the issues. But that’s what’s good
about CSFA, it's a democratic union. We may not always agree but in the end you
have to support the decisions that are made.

Fv: Yeah. I bet you go home and say to your husband, "Listen, you didn't win the
Irene Carr leadership award!”

EB: Oh, that's funny. I have to say, I mentioned this when I got the award, but
my husband went with me to all the workshops and I can’t tell you the things I
had him lug around and the things I had him carry to the workshops. And I'd be
at a table and I'd say, “Oh, Honey, I need this. Go and get this. Go tell them
to turn the heat up,” or whatever it is, you know. He was right there.

FV: So are you sharing the award with him?
EB: Oh yeah. Yeah, he got to go and have a free dinner.

FV: Now, this won’t be bragging on your part if I ask you this question, but
when they gave you the award, what did they say? Why did they give you the
award?

EB: I guess it was because of a commitment to women’s issues that I felt very
strongly about when I first began in 1984. The union handled programs that were
specifically union oriented. Those were the workshops and the programs that they
had. And so they should have. They needed to address pay equity, which wasn't t
real strong back then, but the men made the money so they were supporting the
household. Women’s was supplemental. But, I believed that the union needed to
Interview with Ellen Burke

change its course of direction and they needed to start dealing with personal
needs issues that women faced outside the union because no matter how many
programs you offered them, whether it was CSEAP, LEAP or whatever at the time,
unless they could address the issues that they were facing every day before they
get to the workplace, whether it's they were the primary care keeper, the
primary person responsible if the child was sick, they had to take care of the
house, do the grocery shopping, do the laundry. And that was a way of life back
then. That was what women faced back then and yet they were starting to go out
into the workforce whereas their male counterparts would go into the workforce
and they would come home and say, “What's for supper?" Okay, so things needed to
change. There were battered women. They would be battered and have to go in and
still carry out their job and try to cover it up. The union needed to, if they
were going to address the progress for women though the union, they needed to
address those issues too. And I felt very strongly about that. And it wasn't
exactly the most popular ideal at the time, but I wasn't going to back down and
I think, and I mean, I had some resistance but it took off. Region four was very
well-known for the programs that we started. And it filtered into statewide and
today they still cover union issues but they also cover those personal needs
issues. Because although we've made a lot of progress there's still a lot to go
in the union and you have new people in the union and they may be facing some of
those things. Maybe they haven't been out and involved and know that there's
help out there that they can deal with certain issues. So, I felt very strongly
then and I feel strongly now that it should stay and they should still work on
it and maybe... I didn't back down ... and I guess perhaps maybe that’s the
reason. I don't know.

FV: That sounds good. Sound’s great to me. So let’s have a little history of
fighting for these rights. Who and where did the opposition come from and what
did you have to do to overcome it? Let's hear the history of all that.

EB: Well, the men in the union didn't think it was necessary. FV: outside
their...

EB: Yeah, they just felt that was their place. "What do you mean it's an issue?"
And it was an issue.

FV: All men? All the men in the union? The leaders?

EB: The leaders, our locals were run by predominantly men. And they didn't see
any need to even send a woman to a woman’s conference in the beginning. Our
first regional conference had 50 people in it. The next year, we had 125 or
something like that. It grew and then, what I thought was most important was; it
wasn't just women going to the conferences. They were seeing what we were
talking about. Because, not only were they married to women, they had daughters,

FV: They all had mothers!

EB: They had mothers, they had women in the workplace and they were multiplying
and they had to represent those women as well. And so what better way of
understanding it all but to go to these conferences.

FV: Well, at least they were willing to do that.

EB: Oh yeah. And so we started with one man, I know it was Charlie Staff. He
was the first guy at our women’s; he was the only male, at our women's
Interview with Ellen Burke

conference. And it started from that point on and he brought more men. He would
take the workshops we did, the topics, back to his workplace and he would hold
workshops at his work site because he saw the need. He understood and he said to
me he didn't understand it all before. He didn't think there was a problem,

that was the way society was. Women did this and men did this. But when women go
to the workforce, you know, it's got to be a 50/50 proposition. They can't be
responsible for all of the stuff outside and still be able to handle their job
at the workplace. And so, there was resistance but each year it got better and
better and better as more men came to the conference. And I'm sure there's a few
diehards out there who still want a men's committee. But that's okay too. We've
made a lot of progress. The union has made a lot of progress. And I worked
through as a women's committee chair and being on the statewide women's
committee I served through Bill McGowan and Joe McDermott and Danny Donohue.

FV: What kind of reaction did they have to your concerns-each of them?

EB: They were supportive. Bill McGowan was supportive. So was Joe. Joe was a
little reserved. Danny is a butch. He is a much more upbeat guy, okay? Bill
McGowan was kind of..be curs and be cats, you know, he kind of had a language of
his own and he was kind of comical, but he was kind of the last of the old union
bosses that you kind of looked at.

Fv: Cigar?

EB: Yeah, the cigar and everything. He kind of reminded me of that. But he was
. he seemed very supportive. I'm sure the leadership did not support the

standing committee. I know that they didn't. They didn't think it was necessary.
But it’s there. It's something that I don't think you'll ever find them being
able to take away at this point. And overall, I think as time went on they've
become more supportive. And they know. Danny knows. He knows the women are out
there and we I re out there to stay, so I just, I think overall in time they've
all become very supportive of the women's issues.

FV: That’s the way union is. The people deciding what they want and what they
need.

EB: Yeah.
FV: So you really jumped in once you became an activist, didn't you?

EB: Well, I tried. I served on a lot of committees. We had a newsletter at the
local and I did our newsletter and I think I kind of became a workaholic within
that because one thing led to another and everything I did was interesting,
SO...

Fv: And you saw results too, right?

EB: And I saw results. I know one of the things Danny touched on when I got my
award was my local president, Ellen Kriskowski and I, worked ... we had a lot of
cleaners who were never going to be able to take advantage of any of the
educational benefits them members had because they didn't have the education
themselves and they couldn't...a lot of them were immigrant workers who spoke a
language from their home country and very little English. And we were able to
convince our management that in order for them to be more productive employees
and be able to better themselves and also help... I mean they were reading
Interview with Ellen Burke

labels and mixing chemicals to clean without being able to really understand
whether this could really be mixed with this,

Fv: Safety issues.

EB: A safety issue. I think that we were able to convince them to allow us to
have work relief and start a program, a basic skills program so that-and CSEA
was offering the training over there to get your GED. And from that point on,
several of the women cleaners were able to get their GED and they go work relief
time to go for the courses that were during their work schedule. So it was just
things like that. I mean, a little help doesn't hurt.

Fv: Yeah, and every time you got a victory you went a little farther.
EB: We felt good. And then we said, ‘Well let's see. What can we do next?'
FV: This is a great description of the union. It works.

EB: Yeah, when it works you find out what else can we do. Okay, so we’ve done
this, now let's try this but let's keep an eye to make sure that what we did
over here doesn't go by the wayside. Because that's all part of it. It's not
just getting more stuff for us. In this climate it may be difficult to get a
whole lot more, but we also have unions across the country that are giving back.
And it's important for the union to keep strong, be strong and be together so
that we don't lose the benefit it’s we already have. And that unity is going to
be very important in the next couple of years.

FV: Now, when CSEA became part of AFSCME, were you around?
EB: Yeah.

FV: You were part of and you saw what was going on. Tell me how you saw that and
what happened?

EB: Well, I had mixed feelings at the time because our local had mixed feelings.
We did not want to give up our CSEA as we knew it. We didn't want to become part
of something else because we thought we would lose our identity once that
happened at that time. But I don" t think we have and there was mixed feelings
even in my own local when the votes came out and different people were asking
about, what should we do? I mean, our delegates voted a split vote because
that's the way they felt at the time. I think AFSCME is strong. I think we I re
stronger in numbers and it makes us viable in the political arena today. And I
think that's what someone way back when foresaw happening and...

FV: Who do you think that was?

EB: I would say Joe McDermott and, not Jerry Wolf, uh, our AFSCME president and
I apologize, I can't remember his name!

EB: Yes! McNamee! Isn't it terrible to retire? I don't see him at meetings
anymore. He doesn't do that little speech anymore. But they knew the importance
of this even more so than... they were more experienced in knowing what the
final outcome would be if we merged. Even though we didn't see it. And they
tried but you know that’s what our union is about. We're a democratic union. We
have the right to think it out and disagree and maybe we’re not so sure we want
Interview with Ellen Burke

to do this and maybe all the decisions weren't popular but I think that if we
were stand-alone and we were not part of AFSCME it also protected us from being
hit by other unions. And we may be facing the same fate as some of those unions
across the country but we're still strong as a result of it. So, I think it was
a good decision overall.

FV: This is very good. People. The people in high places and low places in the
union. Do you have any recollections of them, like McDermott or ... were you
ever a delegate to any of these...?

EB: I was a delegate to every conference since 1982 except the last couple years
when I retired. My last conference was in 2000.

FV: 1982 to 2000. A lot happened.

EB: Oh, there was a lot. You have to know that we have some really wild and
wooly activists out there and if they don't want something, they're going to let
somebody know. I found it was uncomfortable for me back when there was two men
running for statewide president: Joe McDermott and Jimmy Moore. They were
both... I liked them both and I saw a big split amongst the delegate body over
that. Who was supporting and who was supporting. For me, that's uncomfortable,
because up until that point I always felt that everybody was always going to get
along.

FV: One big happy family.

EB: One big happy family. But it made us understand that such a thing could

happen. A person could have different ideas and could go for it. Now, obviously,
Joe won and Jimmy Moore is still active and everybody's back together again, you
see. People get hurt, people don't always win their elections but you can't let
those setbacks set you back because then you become less effective. They should

make you stronger and you just move on. You just... I lost an election twice.
And I was disappointed. That didn't stop me from running again and then I won my
office the third time, so... and that was after not having been an officer for a

couple terms. You know, you just can’t let those defeats because people want to
go places. And just because you want to try to do something doesn't mean that
you shouldn't run because you don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. It’s going
to happen one way or the other. That's the nature of the political arena.

FV: Good. And who else? Any other personalities ... Irene?

EB: Oh, Irene. Irene was way before her time and she was the epitome of the
beginning of the women’s movement in CSEA. And she was my inspiration. She was a
person who didn't take no for an answer like a lady. She could make a point so
pointedly, "Now, you're going to listen to me. I want it this way." Not Irene.
She was the gentlest, sweetest person you could ever know and one that you
didn't want to fool with because she knew exactly what she wanted and she was
going to get it. And she knew what was important and she was going to make them
listen. And she did it in her own special way.

FV: What kinds of things did she get accomplished?
EB: Oh, my God. I think everything we deal with today started with Irene.

Whether it was daycare or childcare or secretaries training. When they had
training before they had officer training, but secretaries training wasn't
10

Interview with Ellen Burke

included. A secretary was considered an officer probably because of Irene. I
said one day, “Well, gee, I can’t really do much back there. I'm just a
secretary.” “No, no, no. I don’t want to ever hear that. You're not just a
secretary. You perform a very important part.” She made people feel that
whatever position they held or whatever job they did they should be proud of
that job and feel as though that job was just as important as a vice president
at the college or the director at DOT. She made you feel as though what you did
had worth. And that was especially important to women at that time. Because
women didn't feel as though what they did was very important or valued much.
They were made to feel... I told you, their jobs meant nothing. But Irene.

She was my mentor.

FV: Yeah. Wow. Couldn't have asked for a better one.

EB: And I just think she is probably the most influential person in all the
years that I have ... she is probably the one that I will remember forever.

FV: That's great. Nice to have your award and have her name on it. That's really
special. Wow. That's good.

EB: I received three awards in my life. In 1986 I received the university's

president's award for excellence in support services and I was very, very proud
of it and you only get that once. And in 1996 region four awarded me the service
appreciation award for the women's committee. And then it was topped off by the
Irene Carr leadership award. I've got it made. My career was solidified by then.
It made me feel as though I have made a difference in somebody's life somewhere.

FV: Of course you have. In many ways, I'm sure. And what's the membership of
CSEA now? 165,000?

EB: A hundred and some thousand? Yeah.
FV: What was it 25 years ago?
EB: What, 30-40,000 maybe? If even then? And a lot of that's due to women.

Fv: That's right, that's right. Absolutely. This is great. I've got some stock
questions I'll ask.

EB: Uh oh.

Fv: And if there's anything else that you remember that you want to tell us,
we're here. We're here all day if you want to stay all day.

EB: Well, I do have a job. Even though I am retired I still have a job, three
days a week. Don't do Mondays or Fridays.

FV: Good. That's smart. That's what I'd do.
EB: That's it. I work Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. That's it.
Fv: I did that for six years with no when I was doing CSEA commercials. I

worked three days a week. Sometimes it was different days, but that’s the way I
wanted to do it. Practice for retirement.
11

Interview with Ellen Burke

EB: Oh yeah. Well, see, I'm just kind of keeping this as my cash flow to take my
trips and to build my own business because I'm working on that now.

FV: Good. What business?
EB: I'll be doing internet personal safety products. Especially for women.
FV: Excellent. Is this from what you've learned...

EB: Yeah, I've learned how to design web sites and I was going to do that a
little but I'm kind of believing that people need to protect themselves and
there's a lot of reason more so now to do that than ever before. So, I'm working
on my marketing plan and I'm working on getting my funding. So, hopefully by the
end of this next year my business will be up and running. Then no more part-time
three days a week.

FV: Right. You'll be working all around the clock. All right. What are you most
proud of in your CSEA career? I know there's a lot but let's try to pick out
something...

EB: My three awards. Because I got that award at the university while I was
still a union activist which proved one thing. Being a union activist did not
deteriorate from my work. And so I do feel as though I was still awarded that in
spite of what they tried to say that, you know, we just never do any work
because we're always away at the union stuff.

FV: You've got something to show it.
EB: So that's what I feel is important.
Fv: ALL the time you were with CSEA what are you most disappointed by?

EB: I would say the lack of some people who disagree getting on with it when the
fight is over. There are some people who will hold grudges for years. And all of
that makes everyone else uncomfortable but it also...When you have a strong
union management can’t buck you. When they find one person's in dissension with
the rest they're going to work on that person. And I just find it's very
difficult. I'm just disappointed that some people over the years just haven't
gotten on with it. Because I’m the type of person that I got involved because I
like people and I want people to get along and I also want people to be treated
right. And I just think that the stronger we are, the more together we are.

I know I get carried away. from the topics.

FV: No, I was going to ask you to define CSEA but I think you just did.

EB: Oh yes. As a whole, CSEA, I think, is one of the best unions around. I was
privy to working for the phone company for a year prior to coming to state
service and I was literally badgered into joining the teamsters but I didn't.
But it was one of those unions that I felt at that time ran the people.I mean,
you did what they said and I wasn't going to join. And then, fortunately, I got
offered a job with the university so I left. I find this is much different. This
is our union.

Fv: Oh yeah. What lessons do you think CSEA's history holds for its future?
12

Interview with Ellen Burke
EB: What lessons?

Fv: Yeah, I mean if the past is prologue, as Shakespeare said, what are we going
to learn from our past?

EB: Political action. I think that our early history, had politics played a part
in it, it would not have resorted to just a social club in the beginning.

They would have moved a lot faster. I think politics has been a very important
phase of CSEA.

FV: Helped forge it.

EB: Yeah. I mean, I don't really like getting involved in political action.
That's not my thing. It is for some people. So I leave that political action
committee and all of those things to those people who like working on that.

I was on the education committee. I was on other committees. I was the chair of
our EAP program at the university for five years and I was a member besides
that. And that's helping people. Helping people get the help they need and
trying to keep them from going off the deep end. It's kind of like those were
the things that were important to me. But I recognized that political action is
extremely important and without it we won't have the clout that we have today.
It's really important. And if you find somebody in there who is not going to
support your issues then we've got to get our members to vote. So even though I
didn't get involved in political action I voted and I did what I had to do, to
do my part.

FV: Right. And the most important events in CSEA during your time of
involvement? What do you think?

EB: Well, I have to go back to the issue of Theodore Wenzl on the stage. CSEA at
that time was so sure we were going out on strike that in the lobby of the
Palace Theater as we were leaving, the newspapers, the early editions were
already delivered and it says, "CSEA goes out on strike.” We didn't. And I'm
sure that's why...

FV: Dewey defeats Truman?

EB: We defeated that. And I don’t think they anticipated we had the know-how or
the where-with-how or the whatever to be that strong to do that. So I think they
gained mutual respect. The leadership gained mutual respect for the members in
knowing that if you give them an issue when you tell them about it they're going
to think about it and maybe make the decision. It just stands out. I...

FV: This could be the defining moment in CSEA. The people said, “It's ours.”

EB: Right, it may have been the defining moment in setting the guidelines that
guide us today. You know, you can't take things for granted. And they took the
members for granted. I don't think they're taking members for granted anymore.
They have to deal with what the members need and want. And I think this was a
good lesson they learned then. And I was very new and green and wasn’t really
extremely involved then at all. Just a shop steward doing some postings and
helping out where I could. But I saw that and I thought, "Oh my God," you know?
I can’t believe this happened." And then there's this newspaper. I still have it
at home somewhere, I think. It's so funny.
13

Interview with Ellen Burke

Fv: Oh great. I'd love to see that.

EB: I even have the bumper sticker. They had bumper stickers. “CSEA on strike.”
FV: Oh, good. Because that will go into the history ... whatever we publish...
EB: I'll have to look and see if we still have that.

FV: Please do. Yeah.

EB: Because I moved and a lot of stuff got tossed but I hope I
didn't because ...

FV: If it's still around, make sure Steve can look at it because he and I and
Maybe you will be working on putting something together.

EB: You never know.
Fv: It’s very possible. You have a good grasp of the history of CSEA.

EB: Yeah and I'm surprised because I never really thought I did. I just did my
thing and, you know, but that's a lot of years there. I think 1970, 80, 90,
2000. 35 years at the university, 30 years being involved as an activist is kind
of a long time, I guess.

Fv: Is there anything else I should have asked that I didn't ask that you wanted
to talk about.

EB: No, I guess this isn't going anywhere, but if it were I would say to the
members you need to keep strong. And you need to keep on fighting no matter how
many stumbling blocks we're going to face these next few years because since
9/11 things are certainly not easy and they aren't going to be easy. There's a
lot of retirements going on right now. They're not going to fill positions.
Things that are already tough in the workplace are going to get tougher. And we
just need to be strong. They need to be strong. I get a retirement check, you
see. So I'm okay. I'm strong. But if I were still there, I would say, "You need
to work together and you need to not give up and feel like its lost or feel like
the union isn't doing anything because they are. It's a tough battle. And
they're stronger than most unions across the country."

FV: Well, you are still there. Your spirit is there and you're there. You're
still influencing people.

EB: Well, I try.

FV: It's great. Well, really, thank you much. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
EB: Thank you.

Fv: I guess we’re done, for now. But you, I'll probably go home and you'll

think of more things and then you let us know because we' 11 do this again.
That" s what happens with this process, it's amazing.