Welcome to the Capital Connection, a weekly program questioning New York State leaders
on a variety of issues.
Your host is Dr. Alan Shartock, political scientist and professor emeritus at the University
at Albany.
Distributions for the Capital Connection is made possible with the help of New York
State United Teachers, representing professionals in education and healthcare, online at nysut.org.
Since the Capital Connection, I'm Alan Shartock, joining us for the first time this week is New
York State Senator Terry Gibson.
A first term New York State Senator for the 41st District, including Duchess and Putnam
counties, Senator Gibson is a local business owner, homeowner and full-time resident of
Reignbeck in Duchess County.
And prior to being elected, a New York State Senator served two terms as a village trustee.
Welcome Senator Gibson, is it shell shock to go from being a trustee, a village trustee
to the state Senate or is it much of the same?
Well, it's a big step, but it's a step that I'm very excited about and so far so good.
So this is just sort of starting out here as a senator, a Democratic Senator.
Let's see, I'm scratching my head for all of you out there.
Let's see, there are more Democrats in the New York State Senate than there are Republicans.
But somehow the Republicans are still in control.
Yeah, that's interesting and somewhat unfortunate, I would say, for my point of view.
But I am optimistic that over time that will change and I also think the Hudson Valley,
you're going to see a lot more Democrats elected from the area I live in as well.
Why is that?
Well, more and more of that area of the state is becoming bluer.
More people are moving up from New York City because of the quality of life up there.
It's a great place to live.
There's a lot of business opportunities, a lot of job opportunities.
And you saw on this last race that there were several new Democratic senators elected
from the Hudson Valley and I just think that's going to be a trend that's going to happen.
How did you win?
You know, you're a handsome guy, you know, what are you?
Six foot tall.
How does the Democrat win?
When you first came to see me, I wasn't sure you could win.
But now you've won.
And how did you do it?
Well, all I can tell you is that I worked very, very hard.
I put a message out there that I was a business owner, a homeowner, tax payer.
What was your business?
I have a design business that I've actually shuttered since I was elected in order to focus
on the state's in its seat full time.
But it was based in Ryan Beck.
I just become very frustrated about the cost of living, the lack of good jobs, the lack
of quality education and really overall just the lack of a long-term vision for New York
state.
And I think that message really resonated.
The people of my district were ready for somebody new.
They were ready for a change and I believe that combined with the hard work is what paid
off.
Who did you beat?
We beat Senator Steve Ciland, who had been an Albany for over 30 years.
A living legend.
You've been here for a long time.
Yes, you have.
And now you're sitting down there in the minority.
Now, you know, there are bills that should come up that aren't coming up or at least
not yet because somehow, I mean, the only way I can explain this is that when I was in
junior high school, I was elected over the objections of a lady who was in control of
the general organization teacher.
I was elected president of the general organization, a general archer in your high school on 93rd
Street.
And this lady appointed, you know, some other guy, second vice president and gave him
all the good jobs to do.
The fix was in.
I think the fix is in here.
The Democrats have more people.
The Republicans are running the place and I have to say with the help of Governor Andrew
Cuomo.
Well, as you pointed out, every organization big and small has their own power struggles
internally and the state center is no different.
There are people there that are interested in achieving things for their own means and
they have found a way to take over a significant amount of power and use it in a way that to
my point of view, at least, has not really been official to the entire state.
But what about justice?
What about fairness?
Well, we need a lot more of those things.
Certainly, that's what you're out of.
But you're outwashed.
Of course, you sit there as a backman, sure, when you should be chairman of a committee,
making major decisions.
I am outraged.
I think everyone in our Democratic conference is very frustrated because we all came there
to try to do some very important progressive things and we feel like we have the momentum
to do it and the right people to do it and we're being basically held in place because
of certain people want to try to delay that for their own personal gains.
Well, what about the governor?
Come on, you know and I know that he's the one who keeps them in power.
All he had to do was veto that summary apportionment bill, which he said he would do during
the campaign and he did do it.
Now are you scared of the governor to speak up right now?
No, listen, I actually share the governor's agenda.
I think for the most part, everything the governor is trying to get done here in New York
State, I talked about the same things during my campaign and continued to side with the
governor on just about every issue now.
I think there is a lot of potential in working together with him to get a lot of things done
this session and I think that that's going to happen.
So I have a lot of faith in the governor's leadership and my Democratic conference leadership
with Andrew Stewart-Cousins and I think working together we're going to have movement.
That's nicey, nicey, but I'm asking a question.
I mean, this guy, this governor, single-handedly made sure that the Republicans were still
going to be in charge of the state Senate and you sit here and you say, well, you know,
gay marriage and this is that.
I agree with all of that, guns, but on the other hand, I have to say that if I were sitting
in your seat, I'd be angry with him.
Well, you know, you have to have a long-term view of things here.
Something things done, takes patience, takes compromise, you have to be logical about it.
There's no benefit to picking a fight with the governor for many of us.
Say that again.
You know, so we need him to get some of the things done that we want to get done and I intend
to establish a good relationship with him.
I think I've already done that and I've committed to him that I will help him any way that I
can.
He's already helped me greatly in my district.
We were able to deliver quite a bit of things in this last budget for my district which
I was very happy about as a freshman senator and without the governor's cooperation that
wouldn't have happened.
Let's go to some of the really bad stuff that has been happening.
It's almost incomprehensible, Terry Gibson and that is, you know, John Samson, Malcolm Smith.
These were guys who were president of the Senate.
They were the headguys.
The last time the Democrats had a shot.
All they had to do was behave themselves, but they couldn't.
And now there are those people, including the governor, I suspect, who say these guys
are not fit to rule.
And therefore the rest of you aren't fit to rule, even though, you know, there have been
some bad decisions made about who you should hire on to lead you.
How do you react to that?
Well, I'm happy to talk about this.
I'm glad you brought it up.
But before we go down this path, let's just establish one thing that corruption and
Albany knows no political bounds, both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party and
both houses have plenty of people who have unfortunately gone to Albany for the wrong
reasons.
And they've been caught.
And I think it's important to realize that it's not a partisan issue.
Personally, I'm disgusted by what's happened in the last few weeks.
It's not surprising based on the history that you see looking back, but it is really disappointing
as a newly elected official.
My hope is that the silver lining is that the bad apples that are here are finally being
caught are finally leaving and soon will be left with serious elected officials that want
to get something done.
But I do hope that they are punished to the full extent of the law if they are indeed found
guilty.
And we must really, really get serious about serious reform and Albany.
And I know everyone's talking about that, but until we have term limits, until we have
significant campaign.
Are you for a term limit?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So will you leave after eight years?
Well, I'm not going to make any pledge on that, but I do believe that three terms in the
Senate, if we could change those terms to four years each, would be a really reasonable
amount of time we could think is done.
And I think if we had the pressure of term limits on us to get things done that so many
other things that are happening wouldn't be happening.
You wouldn't have time to become so beholden to these groups that these people are being
connected with that are getting them in trouble in the first place.
Listen, part of the reason things aren't getting done in New York State is that we have
too many people in both houses, especially the Senate, that have been there for 16, 17,
18, 30 years in some cases that really are so comfortable with the status quo that they
are not interested in doing anything that will change that.
And that is happening right now.
And until we pass term limits, until we reduce the contribution rates, and until we do things
that put serious pressure on changing the status quo, you're not going to see a lot of
movement on a lot of items.
And you know, there are those people who think that political scientists who say, hey,
if I want to elect Terry Gibson, you know, for the next 100 years, like your predecessor,
why not do that?
That's my freedom of choice.
How do you answer that?
Well, you still are going to have many, many times to re-elect the same person, even if
you keep them there for three terms.
But I think that the key to a really good effective government is having a system that allows
lots of new people to come up through the ranks and represent their constituents because
it brings in new ideas, it brings in new vision, it keeps the system fresh, and that's what's
not happening right now.
The system is stale.
It's so old and stale and musty.
It needs new life, it needs new vision, it needs new people.
The only way to do that is to settle in it and how long someone can stay in office.
I'm going to go to a place I probably shouldn't, but I had a black legislator call me up and
say that much of the organization of the Senate has to do with race, that a group of African
Americans and Latinos said we're going to run the Senate and among them were Malgo Smith
and John Samson.
Is it your sense as a freshman legislator that you're being taken as seriously as anybody
else who has been admitted into those wonderful, exalted area of the New York State Senate?
It is.
I believe that it's actually a very level playing field.
I personally have seen no sense of any type of racial-based issues.
That doesn't exist as far as I can tell.
I don't know where that's coming from.
Listen, this is a new Democratic conference.
Whatever happened in the past years before I was here has happened.
It's water under the bridge.
That doesn't happen now.
Our conference meetings are very organized, they're very efficient, we get a lot done.
We have strategies that we're moving forward.
We have a great leader in Andrea's to recusen.
You also, by the way, comes from the Hudson Valley.
It's all so good.
It's all good on this program.
Right.
Great that her.
I think the conference does.
We stand behind her.
There's a lot of great things happening.
It's a very diverse conference.
I think the fact that it is so diverse is what makes us so strong.
If you look across the aisle, you don't see that type of diversity.
I think that's what makes them so weak.
It's what keeps them from wanting to do things that will move the state forward.
They don't have the vision.
They don't have the vision.
They need to do these things.
Give me some examples.
Examples are, because our conference is so diverse, we represent many, many different
cultures throughout the state.
But we do, because of their demographics, they're not moving forward doing what they
should do.
What should they do?
Well, I think that they should get serious about trying to do things to reduce the
cost of living here in New York State.
One of the things that my conference talks a lot about is trying to change the way that
we fund public education, especially those of us in the Hudson Valley.
If you want to improve the quality of education, and if you want to reduce the cost of living,
you have to take that responsibility off the backs of the property owners in New York
State.
That's something that should be an issue that we're all working on.
But instead, you only really see the Democrats talking about it.
I don't know why that is, except for the fact that, again, you're talking about changing
the status quo, and changing the status quo just seems to be something that the Republican
Party is not interested in doing on just about every single front.
Give me another front.
Hmm.
Well, you can pick one.
I'm a college professor.
I get to ask these subcratic questions.
You can pick one.
Listen, I'm actually going to be introducing a constitutional amendment to basically prohibit
the state government from handing down mandates, unfunded mandates.
This is something that the Republican Party has continually said that they want to change,
that they're constantly saying that we shouldn't do unfunded mandates.
Well, I'm now giving them a chance to actually put their money with their mouth is.
But give everybody who's not there listening right now, an example of one mandate you
find particularly reprehensible.
Well, I mean, all the mandates are reprehensible because the only reason I'm down is that frankly,
is that I want you to, by way of an example, to tell people what a mandate is because I
don't think most people know that a mandate is something that you're making people do.
One more thing that business has to do.
One more thing that government has to do without funding for it.
Well, a mandate, a simple example would be that the state government requires that all
volunteer fire departments ever so often by new uniforms, by new gear, by new hose,
and you'll find that, as you talk to these departments, that all of this equipment is
completely in good shape.
It's in quality shape.
And there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to reuse it.
And we spend millions and millions of dollars in the state buying new equipment that we
simply don't need every year.
Local governments have to do that themselves through their local taxpayers.
That's one simple example.
So my mom who was a school teacher used to say that her schools were intended didn't care
much about what she was doing except that she wanted to make this years and years ago,
except that she wanted to make sure that the windows were open three inches from the top.
And it's an example of a mandate.
Um, okay, it's good.
Okay, so when you walk into the Senate and those two guys are still sitting there, Malcolm
Smith and John Samson, they're still there despite these terrible accusations of wrongdoing.
Now, I know you're going to say, I'm sure you'll say, and it's still proven guilty,
but must give you the shivers.
How are they being treated?
They're not actually there that often to be quite honest with you.
And when they are, they're basically ignored by everyone, including me.
It's just not the people that you want to be associated with.
I think everyone keeps their distance.
Yes, the legal course has to take its path.
And we have to see if they truly are guilty.
But the perception that they're bringing to the state Senate is one that I certainly would
prefer they not bring.
And the sooner this is over, the better for all of us.
I know that you have a villain you want to end middle of the night voting.
You know, the whole idea, everybody here knows, but just to remind everybody that first
you get them tired, you let them go out and eat, then you bring them back and everybody
holds up their hand and like a bunch of sheep goes back.
So you want to stop that, right?
Well, yeah, listen, we're here all day long, two or three days a week throughout session.
And we do vote on legislation.
We do get things done.
But what seems to be the M.O. is that the majority of it comes down at the very last minute.
At the very last two or three days of session and it's a big rush to try to cram in all
the things that we didn't get done.
And what happens is you end up staying here really, really late when everybody's exhausted.
And once you get to two or three in the morning, you see evidence and I saw it in this last
budget round where bills that should be debated, things that are controversial, things that
you know both sides want to talk about aren't debated the way they should be because everyone's
just tired and wants to go home.
That's no way to run a government.
We shouldn't be operating that way.
Plus, we're doing it in the middle of the night when the people that we represent or
don't sleep and have no idea what we're doing and have to wait and wake up to find out
what we did or did not do.
And I just think it's ineffective, irresponsible and we should change it.
So I have the Vampire Voting Act that would change that.
Because after nine o'clock, you're sucking the blood out of democracy, driving a stake
to the heart of democracy.
However you want to say it.
But the idea would be that after nine p.m., you would not be allowed to vote or anything
again until nine a.m.
Now that's interesting.
Now Andrew Cuomo, of course, who you are feeling has done a great deal with me too when
some of these areas, gay rights, gun control, but gun control was done in the middle of the
night.
Well, it was a vampire thing.
It was.
And that was part of the inspiration for this because that was one of the very first
bills I was confronted with on my second or third day being here.
Terry, is your constituency not happy with background checks and things like that?
My district is for the most part very happy with my vote on the safe act.
They want to see automatic weapons off the street.
They want to see more background checks.
They want to see guns taken out of the hands of people that won't do harm.
And they're overwhelmingly in support of what I did.
Certainly there are those that are not happy about it.
And that's just the fact of the reality of the world we live in.
And I certainly appreciate their ideas on that issue and we've heard from both sides.
So what is Rosie's law?
Oh, so Rosie's law.
Now that's a great law.
That law is a law that we really should be able to get done in the very short amount
of time that we have left the session.
There was a little girl in the city of Pekipsi that was sexually molested and abused by
her father for a very, very long time.
It was a really awful story.
She finally made her way through the legal system after running away from home and was
asked to testify against her father so they could put him in prison.
The only way she was able to get through this was through the assistance of something that's
called a courthouse facility dog and that dog's name was Rosie.
And that dog worked with Jessica, which is what her name was and helped her figure
out how to gain the strength and testify against her father on the witness stand.
This is something that other states have allowed in the past but New York state's laws don't
really permit it as much as it should.
So Rosie's law would basically allow anyone who is under a great deal of stress or who is
vulnerable as a witness to have the assistance of a courthouse facility dog which is trained
to help these victims testify against the perpetrators.
Say again, have the assistance of a courthouse facility dog.
So these are dogs that are trained to work with victims.
For example.
Well, you've heard of therapy dogs, probably.
So there are dogs that go into assisted living communities and work with individuals that
are having a hard time with various mental issues.
Now my dog Murray can speak English.
Right.
He would say somebody to do that.
Well, these dogs can speak English but what these dogs are trained to do is these dogs
are trained to sense when an individual is upset.
They sense just by their own incredible senses that a person's heart rate is really higher
than it should be, that their blood pressure rate is higher than it should be, that they're
actually upset and really under traumatic stress.
And when they sense that, they have a way of getting closer to the victim, to helping
nudge the victim, to helping snuggle up to the victim and they do it in a very calm way.
They're trained to do it in the witness stand so that the jury can't even see the dog
here.
We have seen examples of it.
They came up to Albany the other day.
Are they one breed?
Most of them tend to be Irish setters and Labrador trewers is what most of them are.
So you want to pass this bill?
Yes, because you say what?
That will help get these dogs for a terrifying.
Well, basically it will help the legal system become more effective in prosecuting people
who have committed heinous crimes such as child abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence.
You have a lot of victims out there in these categories that are really terrified to testify
against their victims because it's a very stressful, scary, scary experience.
And these dogs will help them do that.
And if those dogs can help us get these people off the street so they don't do more harm
to more people, I think that's a good thing.
And I think this bill should move through both the assembly and the senate and we do have
sponsors in both.
I hope it moves through quickly.
How about ticks?
I know that you've been interested in this.
Yes, Lyme disease in Duchess County, which is a big portion of my district, is a really,
really big, big problem.
I have actually had it.
Many, many of my friends have had it.
We probably know people have had it.
Everyone across New York State is being experienced to it.
And we're just not dealing with it as a serious illness the way that we should.
And what's happening is that many people are suffering from illnesses that are not being
covered by insurance companies.
So this is a unique disease to New York State.
It is a growing disease.
It really isn't epidemic and it's only going to get bigger.
Well, it's not unique to New York State.
It came out of Lyme, Connecticut.
Right.
But it's become very unique disease in New York State, especially in the area where I live
in Hudson Valley.
And so we need to start treating this as a serious illness, just like we treat other serious
illnesses and insurance companies need to cover it.
And they're simply not.
So we need to pass a law that changes that so that people can get the covers they need
for these long-term illnesses associated with the devastating disease.
I want to talk to you about one last thing that I referred to in the beginning of the
show.
And I want to make sure I get your take on this.
There are four Democrats who have deserted the Democratic conference, which is why you're
still in the minority because these guys have made their own deal with the Republican leader.
And then first started, we heard it was going to be two weeks off and two weeks on.
The Republicans would have it for two weeks.
And these aren't or you know, deserting Democrats would have it for two weeks.
Now it looks like that deal has been broken.
In other words, we now see the leader, the Republican leader, Gene Skellis says we're not
going to vote on portions of the governor's women's program.
What do you make of that?
Personally, I see no evidence to support that there's anyone running this Senate other
than the Republican majority, quite frankly.
That's the day to day feeling about it.
That's clearly who's setting the agenda.
Do you ever talk to the deserts?
Yeah, I don't know.
Oh, yeah, sure.
I mean, listen, they're Democrats.
You know, we need their help and support.
Many of them have co-sponsored my bills and I've co-sponsored many of their bills and
we have to work together and I make every effort to work together.
But from a practical point of view, just to answer the question honestly, unfortunately,
because of the coalition dynamics that these four have decided to take, it's really just
left a wide opening for the Republican majority to continue to run the Senate as they've
done in the past.
What's the potential for reconciliation between all the regular Democrats and the deserting
Democrats, in which case you'd be in the majority?
Of course.
Well, I'm optimistic that that can happen because that would be the best thing for New York
State.
Don't you think if Andrew Cologne called the four deserting Democrats into the room and
shook his finger at them and said, you've got to be Democrats because he's got to go face
a convention at some point.
It's going to wonder what was going on here.
On the shiggest finger at them and say, you've got to work out these differences and come
together.
Don't you think if Andrew Cologne did that, it would work?
Well, we all have these fantasy scenarios about what happens in the governor's office.
And I honestly don't know what would happen.
Nor do I know if he has any interest in doing that.
I do that.
I certainly, I believe very much that the executive branch is a separate branch of government
and the governor needs to do what he needs to do to fulfill his duties as governor and
legislative branch needs to do their job separately and that the two really shouldn't
intermix more than absolutely necessary.
And that's the way the system is set up.
That's what the checks and balances are about.
So I'm not going to get involved in telling the governor what to do.
That's just not my role.
I see it as my role.
We are at a time our guest has been New York State Senator Terry Gibson.
Senator Gibson, this is a wonderful half hour and I thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you, you're giving it up.
And I hope that you'll come back again.
I definitely will.
Thank you so much.
Are you sure?
Absolutely.
The Capitol connection is distributed with the cooperation of the public radio stations
of New York State.
David Castina is the producer of the Capitol connection.
The production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio in Albany.
Support for the Capitol connection comes from New York State United Teachers representing
professionals in education and health care.
Online at nysut.org.
And Nis Kasa, the New York State Coalition against Sexual Assault, working to support men
in their decision to end sexual violence with the My Strength is not for hurting campaign.
Online at nyscasa.org.
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0